REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

In Health Care Decision: A Hidden Win for Conservatives?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, July 9, 2012 13:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2600
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hmmm, wonder if Roberts had this in mind and that's why he came down on the side he did...
Quote:

Liberals have been popping corks over the Supreme Court’s decision upholding the Affordable Care Act. But one part of the ruling is taking some fizz out of the victory. While Chief Justice Roberts joined the court’s liberals in voting for the law, he gave his fellow conservatives an under-the-radar victory. The decision scales back the scope of the commerce clause, which could make it harder for Congress to pass social welfare laws in the future.

Constitutional experts handicapping the case were nearly unanimous in believing that if the law was upheld — a big if — it would be under the commerce clause. That clause — which gives Congress the power to “regulate Commerce . . . among the several states” — is the hook Congress has long used to pass everything from farm laws to airbag requirements.
But the Supreme Court took an unexpected turn. Roberts, writing for the majority, upheld the health care law under Congress’s taxing authority. The court said that Congress did not have the power to pass the law under the commerce clause. As the court saw it, forcing people who do not have health insurance to buy something is not regulating commerce — it is creating commerce.

The court’s narrow interpretation of the commerce clause did not change the outcome of this case — but it did breathe more life into a conservative campaign to rein in Congress’s powers. Conservatives have been arguing for years that a lot of things Congress does that liberals like are not actually authorized by the commerce clause.

The conservatives have had some big victories over the years. In 1995, the Supreme Court ruled that the commerce clause did not give Congress the power to pass parts of the Gun Free School Zones Act, which made it a federal crime to have guns near schools. In 2000, the Supreme Court used the same reasoning to strike down parts of the Violence Against Women Act that let women sue when they were victims of gender-motivated violence.

While much of the media frenzy over the health care decision focused on the fact that the law was upheld – and on the impact the ruling might have on the presidential race – some commentators were quick to jump on the decision’s silver lining for conservatives.

An instant analysis in Slate described the decision as “gutting” the commerce clause and declared: “Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War.” The conservative columnist George Will, writing in the Washington Post, declared the court’s interpretation of the commerce clause to be the “Conservatives’ Consolation Prize” and a “substantial victory.”

So how big a hit is the ruling to Congress’s power? On one level, it could be modest. The court was looking at a very unusual situation. Congress does not normally require people to engage in commerce when they do not want to. Health care is rare case in which many experts argued that for the system to work, it was important that everyone – healthy as well as unhealthy – buy insurance and pay premiums.

Or it could all work out quite differently, and the court’s narrow interpretation of the commerce clause could have a bigger impact. For one thing, rulings of this sort have a way of expanding. The court could rule later on that other federal laws fit in the category it has just created. Just as important is the whole approach the court took to Congress: it was highly skeptical of Congress’s authority, and put the burden on the People’s Branch to prove that it had the right to pass laws. That skepticism could emerge again before long – and the next time, the challenged law may be struck down. http://ideas.time.com/2012/06/29/in-healthcare-decision-a-hidden-conse
rvative-win-to-rein-in-congressional-power/


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Who knows Niki, but good points there....

Seriously, good for you for thinking outside of the box on that one.

I don't trust either side when slime is running the both of them. I don't blame you for wondering if there were ulterior motives for the most "moderate" of SCJ's to side with a ruling that no citizens on either side really thought would have been passed yesterday.

Good intentions, or bad, I think it is a huge blow against America. The thought that it might be a back-door bi-partisan effort makes it that much more scary.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 29, 2012 7:23 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I'm not sure if continued expansion of the commerce clause would have been good for anyone.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Probably. All politics is a horse and pony show. Even if a group opposes something in the open, it'll somehow benefit them in secret.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There is another booby-trap built in, but I'm not gonna give the right-wing any more ammunition.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Congress the power to pass parts of the Gun Free School Zones Act, which made it a federal crime to have guns near schools.


Hello,

As an aside, I remember this. As conceived, it was a regrettable law that suspended the rights of people who live next to schools. I think the lawmakers did not understand just how near schools can be to residential properties, or what might be involved in trying to transport a gun out of a home without violating the law. Never mind the contortions required of someone who usually keeps a weapon in the car when that person might need to drop off or pick up a child from school. The intentions were surely noble, but the result was unfortunate.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:28 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


They're surely going to jump on the horse and ride it for all it's worth.
Saw a headline where Romney vowed to repeal it on his first day in the White House. Didn't know that was part of the President's authority.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I'm not sure if continued expansion of the commerce clause would have been good for anyone.


The ruling was that the govt has the unlimited ability to use the tax code to compel behavior ( like making ou buy healthcare).

July 4th is this week...seems that the King was of the same opinion.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I'm not sure if continued expansion of the commerce clause would have been good for anyone.


The ruling was that the govt has the unlimited ability to use the tax code to compel behavior ( like making ou buy healthcare).

July 4th is this week...seems that the King was of the same opinion.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012





Hello,

If I remember my grade-school history, the problem was 'taxation without representation.'

I believe representation was the key problem, and I believe the American people currently enjoy representation. Well, maybe they don't enjoy it, but they have it.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:32 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
The ruling was that the govt has the unlimited ability to use the tax code to compel behavior ( like making ou buy healthcare).

July 4th is this week...seems that the King was of the same opinion.



You did not know this before the decision? The government has been doing that for years. Okay, not with taxes, but with tax breaks. It is all in the same vein, do what they want and you pay less tax.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
The ruling was that the govt has the unlimited ability to use the tax code to compel behavior ( like making ou buy healthcare).

July 4th is this week...seems that the King was of the same opinion.



You did not know this before the decision? The government has been doing that for years. Okay, not with taxes, but with tax breaks. It is all in the same vein, do what they want and you pay less tax.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Tax breaks for the "job creators" - does this count as using the tax code to adjust behavior?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:14 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

Tax breaks for the "job creators" - does this count as using the tax code to adjust behavior?




Yes, as does the tax break for married couples, the mortgage interest deductions and numerous other such items.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:52 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
They're surely going to jump on the horse and ride it for all it's worth.
Saw a headline where Romney vowed to repeal it on his first day in the White House. Didn't know that was part of the President's authority.



Come now....

Bush and Obama abused that privlidge....

Of course when we have a House Senate and President that are Rethugh, this whole thing is going to be rightfully shit-canned....

DISCLAIMER: I currently make 8 bucks an hour at only 24 hours a week, yet I'm firmly against it.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 6, 2012 8:25 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
If I remember my grade-school history, the problem was 'taxation without representation.'

I believe representation was the key problem, and I believe the American people currently enjoy representation. Well, maybe they don't enjoy it, but they have it.


'Taxation without representation' was the grade-school summery of the larger economic and social issues.

People did not have a problem with everyday taxes. It was the special taxes, the ones that infringed on choice and individual behavior by making it illegal not to by goods such as tea in which the Crown had a monopoly (note: salt in India). Another tax required a govt stamp on every document, even private contracts not subject to govt scrutiny because the govt is not a party. Other taxes on commerce to make us trade our raw materials only with Britain, and taxes on manufacturing to make us reliant on English finished goods.

Then came Crown abuse on the American courts and bypassing local govts, courts and local authority that existed under British Law in England but suddenly absent from the Colonies.

It was only after these afronts and injustices that we realized that the rights of colonials were secondary to the rights enjoyed by English citizens because those citizens were represented in the English government.

The English govt answerable only to the English people and subject to the authority of the King saw colonials as persons to be ruled and resources to be exploited for their own purposes.

We rebelled against England and established a govt with strict limitations to protect persons from tyranny and abuse. If you don't think Legislative tyranny amd tyranny of the majority was a concern during the drafting of the Constitution you are mistaken and know little of Pennsylvania's history during the time (they went through an imperial legislature phase after independence and there was fear that legislatures could get out of control, which they sometimes have).

Taxation and limitations on govt power were at the heart of the debate during the rebellion and during the Consitutional convention and ratification period. If you believe the Constitution gives the govt the power to coerce its citizens into actions the govt otherwise would not have the power to force them to do...you are mistaken, Justice Roberts is mistaken, and dangerously so if for no other reason then there are few implied powers not covered by the Bill of Rights (look at the last couple).

For example. No power gives the govt the right to force you to buy health care...but it can force to buy health care using tax powers. This is the decision at hand.

Likewise no power gives the govt the right to prevent a woman from exercising her right to privacy and aborting her child (prior to viability per Roe v. Wade). Now the govt can tax her getting the abortion and tax the doctor for doing it.

The above example, like health care, speaks to an issue not contained within the wording of the Constitution...but does it end there? The govt cannot compel you to testify against yourself...but can it tax you for not testifying? And you can exercise any religion you want...but can you be taxed for making that choice, making a particular choice, or for choosing no religeon at all? '10 cent free speech tax' (Popeye, great movie).

These questions once obvious are now open for review. I'm sure you have strong opinions on the merits...but speak now, opinions contrary to the ruling party could become subject to taxation.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 6, 2012 8:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, Newold, I grinned when I heard him say that. Check out his "first 100 days in office"; he's got LOTS of plans that the President can do by just waving his hand... How dumb ARE the people listening to him??


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 9, 2012 1:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hero, the Colonial history part of your post was cool.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Sat, November 23, 2024 07:41 - 943 posts
Is Elon Musk Nuts?
Sat, November 23, 2024 07:23 - 421 posts
Elections; 2024
Sat, November 23, 2024 06:28 - 4794 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Sat, November 23, 2024 06:14 - 7491 posts
Idiot Democrat Wine Mom
Sat, November 23, 2024 05:26 - 1 posts
Where is the 25th ammendment when you need it?
Sat, November 23, 2024 01:40 - 11 posts
Thread of Trump Appointments / Other Changes of Scenery...
Sat, November 23, 2024 01:33 - 41 posts
Biden admin quietly loosening immigration policies before Trump takes office — including letting migrants skip ICE check-ins in NYC
Sat, November 23, 2024 01:15 - 3 posts
RCP Average Continues to Be the Most Accurate in the Industry Because We Don't Weight Polls
Sat, November 23, 2024 00:46 - 1 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, November 22, 2024 23:52 - 4752 posts
why does NASA hate the moon?
Fri, November 22, 2024 20:54 - 9 posts
Looks like Russians don't hold back
Fri, November 22, 2024 20:18 - 33 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL