Is Bin Laden a tool for the US election? by Succatash

Disgusting. Nothing since going into Iraq, and now, suddenly, right before the election, "we're getting close" to Bin Laden. It's like an efing teaser trailer. How is it that people continue to buy into this crap?

I'm writing a book: "Everything I needed to know about post 9/11 politics I learned in junior high." The RNC was a week long version of the jock sitting behind you coughing "loser" with all his pals laughing. And people respond by giving Bush a "double digit" lead. Cheney says, "We don't need a permission slip to defend the United States." Are we all twelve now? I can hear the new rhetoric now: "George Bush will not be sent to bed without any supper! He will not be grounded! He will go to the party on Friday night! He will borrow Dad's car! While John Kerrey stays home studying for a history exam! Our team is red hot, your team is doodly-squat!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 6:31 AM

SEVEREN

The capture of Bin Laden will be good news not only for the Bush administration, but fot the entire western world, and reluctantly, the whole world. If it comes before the election that's good, and if it comes after, that's also good. I don't think the timing is really under Bush's control.

From the Department of Rendundancy Department.

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 6:47 AM

GOJIRO

I predicted a year ago that Bin Laden would be "captured" right before the election. If he's not already in custody, waiting to be trotted out the week before the election, that is.

It's already been made abundantly clear that Iraq had no WMDs, and the CIA admits Iraq had no part in September 11th. Yet 1,000 American soldiers and thousands of Iraqi innocents have died because Bush's puppet masters wanted Iraq's oil.

Despite that, most of America seems to blindly support Bush and Cheney, whose rampant jingoism would be laughable if everyone weren't taking it seriously.

I'm all for homeland security, but the war in Iraq is wrong, our men and women are dying over there for corporate blood money, and Bush is a tool of those selfsame corporations. He's got to go.

Kerry may prove to be no better, but at least there's a chance. Bush has proven to be bad for America and Americans. He sickens me.

gojiro

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 3:29 PM

Hey Succatash,

I was wondering what you might make of this ?

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

Could there be a much bigger story hiding here ?

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 5:09 PM

SUCCATASH

I'd like to think we can remove Bush and tone down the insanity.

If the message in the video is true, then it's too late. We are doomed.

Helpless helpless helpess helpless

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 5:20 PM

Hate to say it but Bush isn't really the problem...

Your countries foriegn policy from about Eisenhower on has been making enemies all over the place

Republican or Democrat they seem to want to control everyone elses business... and now instead of attacking the lackey US appointed dictator.. they are taking the fight back to America

Bush is only part of it, a bigger solution has to be found... and soon

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Monday, September 6, 2004 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Succatash,

I was wondering what you might make of this ?

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

Could there be a much bigger story hiding here ?

Nice! I'd come across this information before but not in such a concise form. Thank you.

At moments like this I get the feeling that the internet is gonna be the savior of us all. I think this is why there's been such a lock-down on conventional media in the past few years. Conservative forces and think tanks that have been hard at work protecting "free enterprise" from "liberal fascism" for the past 30 years have been laboring under a pre-internet model. With every passing day they must be feeling more and more screwed. So their only hope is to keep the heartland of America away from the internet and keep them watching fox news and reading USA Today. As long as they can keep the notion that "any wacko can put up a webpage" and use the term "conspiracy theory" to destroy the credibility of any information that falls outside their "mainstream" they figure they can maintain control. But it sure seems like just a matter of time before the internet matures into the primary source of news and information for people in this country.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 12:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Every time I read postings like these, I almost cry. I'm deeply grateful to read and learn from the informed, thoughtful, cogent, eloquent people who give a damn.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 5:29 PM

I just wanted to say thanks, I had second thoughts about posting that link... I thought I was going to be flamed, told off, etc

It is really nice to know that this medium of the internet really does connect like minded people...

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:53 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Succatash,

I was wondering what you might make of this ?

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

Could there be a much bigger story hiding here ?

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

Even Snopes.com has debunked this one. As well as people I know who saw the 757 hit the building.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 4:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
A few months ago, I started a poll on my website about when Osama Bin Laden will be captured in relation to the US election.

Bush is running out of time, but low and behold:

U.S. Capture of bin Laden Close

What's your opinion on this matter? I'm guessing Bin Laden will be caught in mid-October. Hmmm.

I agree, but its an American tradition. Back during the Civil War Lincoln "arranged" to have Atlanta fall before the election to secure victory. Same thing with Roosevelt in WW2, first he arranged the liberation of France before the election, then he got Hitler to hold off on the Battle of the Bulge until after it was over.

Please. Its three years between Sept 11, 2001 and Nov 2, 2004. There's a good chance of catching Bin Ladden in that time and just as good a chance of catching him after.

This is just an excuse by the Bush haters to deny the President credit if he comes through before the election while also bashing him for failing to catch Bin Ladden in the years since 9/11.

My prediction is that it will work out just like Saddam. We will look and look and look and then, one morning we will wake up and there he will be and we can stop looking and laugh at how bad he looks.

Hmm... Maybe I should predict that Bin Ladden will not be found before the election because John Kerry would lose. Yeah. Kerry and wife have a huge multi-national corporation and billions of dollars at their disposal. THey also have the sympathy of the French govt. Maybe its just a bit to convienent that Bin Ladden has not been found. Then, if Kerry wins and Bin Ladden is suddenly "found" then Kerry is the great leader. Damn Kerry and the Democrats! I can't believe they'd keep Bin Ladden from justice just so they can play their political games.

Or...Nader, I bet he has Bin Ladden hidden in a safe house in McComb, Illinois...

H

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hate to say it but Bush isn't really the problem...

Your countries foriegn policy from about Eisenhower on has been making enemies all over the place

Our policy has been the proliferation of liberty. It has succeeded on an unprecedented scale.

Eisenhower led the free world when half the world was under the thumb of Communism. Eastern Europe was behind an Iron curtain. China was building its worker paradise on the backs of its billion slaves.

We drew a line against Communist expansion and opposed it at every turn. In every land free people could count on American aid and the enslaved masses could secretly dream the American Dream. We freed China from the thrall of the Comintern and divided our enemies against themselves. One great enemy fell the other has changed its nature, reducing its threat and people by the hundreds of millions know liberty and freedom and the friendship of the United States.

In the days of the Cold War we made enemies of the Soviets and their allies. But afterwards the Poles, Czechs, Slavaks, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians came to know us as as friends and allies. As have the peoples of many former Soviet states. This was American policy, to seek new friends through liberty and oppose those who stand against it. In the nineties we faltered and failed to transfer our fight against the Communist threat to the terror threat our preoccupation with Communism masked. We have paid the price with blood and now carry on with a renewed purpose.

We chose the peoples of the Middle East not as enemies, but as future allies in a free and democratic region. This is American policy today.

Some nations, even former allies such as France, oppose our policy. Some seek a return to their own traditional policies of non-violent appeasment which seem so rational and civilized yet have proven to be far more destuctive then policies of premption and confrontation. Others are led by leaders who themselves saw great personal financial benefit from the existence of corrupt terror regimes such as Saddam Hussein.

Fear, greed, and outdated beliefs, these are the motivations of those who oppose the War on Terror. Those same beliefs drive many of those who are fighting this war. Three sides to the conflict, those who fight for and against the terrorists and those who oppose the fighting all together, all driven by the same motivation.

Why chose the American side? Because war is upon us. Russia and France have both learned that there is no sideline and the bodies of Russian children, the heads of French journalists, and the ruins of great buildings tell us which side is the right side.

H

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:15 PM

RATNUT12

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Succatash,

I was wondering what you might make of this ?

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

Could there be a much bigger story hiding here ?

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

Here's a link to photos of the airplane debris found inside the pentagon

http://rense.com/general32/phot.htm

I just think there are too many slick looking sites and videos spreading around baseless lies.

As far as Bin Laden is concerned I just hope they catch him soon, don't care specifically when, just soon. Someone with his financial resources and evil motives should not be allowed the time and freedom to plan an even more devestating attack.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:42 PM

I would be very happy if somebody would debunk the small hole theory (I actually don't want to believe that there are elements in our own government in cahoots with the hijackers), but I can't say that those websites do the job.

First of all they spend a lot of time debunking obviously inaccurate text (badly translated from the french, maybe?).

Secondly, I've seen more wreckage from the Roswell crash site. A tire. And a sheet of metal with some rivets? So the plane was going so fast that it just evaporated on impact and yet punched through four rings of the Pentagon?

Surely, we can do better than that. These debunking websites offer sketchier evidence than a Michael Moore Documentary.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I couldn't listen because I don't have the equipment, but I gather that the idea was that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile?

I followed that up. Ran across an aeronuatical engineer's assessment of how that could be. Basically, he used the crash of El Al Flight 1862 into a large Dutch apartment building in 1992 as an example of what a similar crash site and debris looks like. The "hole" was indeed very small, and there was very little visible plane debris. The small hole was was attributed to the fact that the wings snap off at the building face.

However, the INTERESTING thing about this crash is that for years afterwards, the local residents complained of vague and untraceable health effects. Looking back, they found that over 38 hours of crash site videotape, most audiotape, and almost all photos had been destroyed by the Dutch government. Independent investigators checked the site for known contaminants and found a little radioactivity- ultimately traced to the construction detail of using spent uranium (for weight) in the aelerons counterweights- but not enough to cause serious health effects.

It wasn't until eight years later, when someone leaked an (apparently stolen) copy of the manifest that ppl figured out that the plane carried three of four ingrediants to make SARIN, that the flight was indeed bound for ISRAEL, and that the contents had been APPROVED BY THE USA COMMERCE DEPARTMENT.

YES INDEED, OUR FRIEND AND ALLY ISRAEL HAD BEEN MAKING CHEMICAL WEAPONS. So, there are actually THREE Middle East countries that had WMD, all beginning with the letter "I".

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh yeah- making the world safe for democracy... NOT!!!

Colombian soldiers assassinated three union leaders last month, an account that contrasts sharply with the army's earlier claim that the three men were Marxist rebels killed in a firefight.

The attorney general's human rights unit ordered arrest(s)... in Saravena, a town long besieged by leftist rebels. Since 2002, United States military trainers have been training Colombian soldiers in Saravena in counterguerrilla techniques

www.nytimes.com/2004/09/07/international/americas/07CND-COLO.html

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:53 PM

Did the people under Pinochet enjoy the " proliferation of liberty", or under Batista, or the Shah, or Somosa, or Diem, the list goes on

Since you all apparently saved us from the Russians, who now will save us from the Americans ?

While I oppose some of the tactics in this war, I agree with the reasons why many of these people oppose you, if your troops came into my country, I would also kill as many Americans as I could.

Time to step back, because your walking towards a mighty big cliff.

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:54 PM

Thank you Signy for a sensible explanation. Why is it that these websites always have to take the long way home through sarcastic gulch and belittlement canyon? All they need is an explanation for the small hole and the lack of debris. And they always seem to have made their minds up way ahead of time. They seem designed merely as entertainment for the already convinced. Sheesh.

I really don't want to get into it with Hero, really (been there, done that), but how does he post as King of All Cynics one minute, telling us that even Honest Abe Lincoln manipulated the civil war for political gain, and the next minute get all misty-eyed over the Purest of Pure Motives he finds in our American Military? LOL ...Good times.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 1:30 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I couldn't listen because I don't have the equipment, but I gather that the idea was that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile?

I followed that up. Ran across an aeronuatical engineer's assessment of how that could be. Basically, he used the crash of El Al Flight 1862 into a large Dutch apartment building in 1992 as an example of what a similar crash site and debris looks like. The "hole" was indeed very small, and there was very little visible plane debris. The small hole was was attributed to the fact that the wings snap off at the building face.

Thanks for helping debunk the "Missle hit the Pentagon" theory. Since I tend to think of our government as just stupid, rather than evil, I never saw much point to blowing up our own military headquarters.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 1:39 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh yeah- making the world safe for democracy... NOT!!!

Colombian soldiers assassinated three union leaders last month, an account that contrasts sharply with the army's earlier claim that the three men were Marxist rebels killed in a firefight.

The attorney general's human rights unit ordered arrest(s)... in Saravena, a town long besieged by leftist rebels. Since 2002, United States military trainers have been training Colombian soldiers in Saravena in counterguerrilla techniques

www.nytimes.com/2004/09/07/international/americas/07CND-COLO.html

So leftist rebels, who some might characterize as guerrillas, have been besieging Saravena for a long time. And U.S. trainers have been instructing the Colombian soldiers in Saravena, who are presumably fighting these guerillas who've been besieging them for a long time, in counterguerilla tactics? Yep. Sounds like another conspiricy to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You know, I would accept your sarcasm with a great deal of sang-froid if I hadn't met someone (a lowly illegal housekeeper) whose entire village had been massacred by government troops. They (troops) put out a flyer saying that there was going to be a union meeting at the village church at a certain date and time, and when about 400 people showed up the troops barred the doors and machine-gunned everyone inside. This was not much different than what happened in Beslan, except it was funded in part by the USA. I bet THAT won't set off any deep response... after all, it's just part of our larger effort to save the world.

The Colombian government has had a long collaberation with right-wing paramilitaries, and a long and well-documented history of brutality towards its own citizens, and yet the USA has consistently trained, armed, and funded them. This was not meant to be the entire argument about the whole of US history in Latin America, just the latest example of our turning them into a nice little cheap=labor colony.

BTW-Please pick up a copy of one of this year's far-left publications, National Geographic. You will find a spread on what life is like on the guerilla side.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:37 AM

Geezer, JCobb and who ever else is Pro-Freedom -

Just give it up folks LOL. I have. I applaud your passion for freedom and intelligence, your ability to see through the inane conspiracy theories and propagandic rhetoric. It's just not worth the frustration.

On these boards , America is the great evil, Period. America and GW Bush are what is wrong in the world. Terrorists are heroes. Islamafascists are heroes and the victims of the great oppressor. Communist Guerilla warriors are heroes. Anyone who is Anti-America, Anti-Democracy, Anti-Israeli, Anti-Capitalism, Pro-Dumbass is welcome on these boards.

Anyone who is Pro-Democracy, Pro-Freedom, Pro-America, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Capitalism and Anti-terrorist, Anti Islamafascist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Big Government, Anti-Dumbass ---- Is a Neo-Nazi Fascist Bigot and All-around Evil.

PS. I subscribe to National Geographic. It is not Deep Left, Nor is it political in my opinion. Pro- Environment does not make you a leftist. As I recall a recent issue on Saudi Arabia,specifically claimed the problem with Saudi Arabia was its LAZY ASSED youth, go figure.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:42 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know, I would accept your sarcasm with a great deal of sang-froid if I hadn't met someone (a lowly illegal housekeeper) whose entire village had been massacred by government troops. They (troops) put out a flyer saying that there was going to be a union meeting at the village church at a certain date and time, and when about 400 people showed up the troops barred the doors and machine-gunned everyone inside. This was not much different than what happened in Beslan, except it was funded in part by the USA. I bet THAT won't set off any deep response... after all, it's just part of our larger effort to save the world.

The Colombian government has had a long collaberation with right-wing paramilitaries, and a long and well-documented history of brutality towards its own citizens, and yet the USA has consistently trained, armed, and funded them. This was not meant to be the entire argument about the whole of US history in Latin America, just the latest example of our turning them into a nice little cheap=labor colony.

BTW-Please pick up a copy of one of this year's far-left publications, National Geographic. You will find a spread on what life is like on the guerilla side.

The Geographic article was interesting.

I realize that the U.S. has supported repressive regimes, both in Columbia and the ones Gino mentioned above. I suspect that the old cold warriors who originated these policies 30 or 40 years ago went in with eyes open but holding their noses, because they understood there was no real win available. They probably considered right-wing dictators over Communist dictators the lesser of two evils.

Considering that the places where the leftist guerillas won, Cuba and Vietnam, are not exactly hotbeds of freedom either, I'm not sure those old commie fighters weren't correct. Since we're trading anicdotal stories... One of my co-workers is originally from Vietnam. In 1975 his father was put in a "re-education" camp for 8 years by the communist regime and was one of the lucky few to get out alive. It wasn't until '94 that they were able to get out of the country and come here.

I'd rather we not be involved in Columbia nowadays myself, but that decision was made long ago. I'm not too sure that our departure at this point wouldn't result in a bigger loss of life than if we stayed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Terrorists are terrorists, whether they are Muslim, Israeli, Serbian, Russian or American.

Anyone who targets a civilian population for death or injury or who destroys basic civilian infrastructure is a terrorist. Quite frankly, I'm not sure I care about the justification, whether it's as noble as "freedom" or as trivial as "He started it".

The massacre of Colombian civilians in a church, the massacre of East Timorese, Sudanese, Beslan children and parents in a school, or workers in the Twin Towers ALL deserve our outrage. One is not more deserving than another, and one action is not more culpable than another. If you are going to be anti-terrorist, just make sure you spread the blame WHEREVER it belongs.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:47 AM

DAIKATH

I'm still suprised at this following but here it goes.

The US has passed a law in wich the parlament (or is it senate?) gives permission to invade The Netherlands should we (I'm Dutch) hold American soldiers there in the International Criminal Court. We are a NATO allie in fact and the US has legalised plans to invade us. Poeple might say 'duh you are holding our poeple.' but they would't be there without reason and if they can't be prooven guilty they will not be sentenced.

What suprises me the most is that no where on the internet or in any other country any mention of this law wich makes this claim kinda dubious. The best I could find was a newsgroup quote, but ask any Dutch person who follows the news. It at least was all over our news.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

By the way, in another thread we have a discussion going about the intertwining of terrorist and hero. They both rely on violence perpetrated by an individual (or a small group) to attain social/ political ends. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" may be true in more than just a flippant way.

Perhaps if we did not rely on heros so much, we wouldn't have terrorists.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
By the way, in another thread we have a discussion going about the intertwining of terrorist and hero. They both rely on violence perpetrated by an individual (or a small group) to attain social/ political ends. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" may be true in more than just a flippant way.

Perhaps if we did not rely on heros so much, we wouldn't have terrorists.

Yeah, I can see that distinction .. NOT.

How many "Heroes" attach bombs to themselves, take 1200 people hostage, many children and then start blowing shit up? Also how many of these "Heroes (to Signym anyways)" who use these tactics are rabid Islama-fascists and how many are not.

True Heroes don't specifically target civilians (or children). Cowards(terrorists) do.

Death to Islamafascism

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Did the people under Pinochet enjoy the " proliferation of liberty", or under Batista, or the Shah, or Somosa, or Diem, the list goes on

Good question. Why not add all the people who suffered needlessly at the hands of brutal dictators in the years following WW2?

A professor once summed it up this way: "When two elephants fight it is the grass that suffers."

There is little doubt that the US could have opposed all the dictatorships that existed in the world since 1950. It would have set our hand against most of Africa, Asia, Central and South America. Our resources would have been depleted and our alliances strained or broken. Thus leaving the world to the Communists.

You mentioned Chile, which suffered through dictatoship to emerge into Demcracy, Cuba, now over 50 years in the grip of Communist slavery, Iran, gripped in the terror and tragedy of radical Islam, Nicaraugua, which saw a fight to freedom in the '80s result in free elections in the '90s, Vietnam, which is now a workers paradise made up of Communists slaves.

Now my list: Poland, South Korea, Czech Republic, Salvakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Estonia, Kuwait, Egypt, Nicaraugua, Chile, Afganistan, Japan, Germany (East and West), France, Mexico, Pakistan, Phillipines, South Africa, Guana, Panama, and Free Iraq...as you say: "the list goes on". These are a few of the nations and a few of the billions of people who have benefited from American policy since 1945.

Sure, its a bumpy road, and sometimes you have to play nice with some of the bad guys until you bring down the worse guys (particularly when they have an arsenal of nuclear weapons pointed at you). But our policy has always been headed in this direction. An end to Communism, a liberated Europe, an end to terror, and a world more free, more safe, and more hopeful then we inherited.

There may not be an end to the challenges we face, who can say what will rise once the scourge of radical Islam is put down, but the hope of the free world is that America will be there to meet it.

Quote:

Since you all apparently saved us from the Russians, who now will save us from the Americans ?

I'm sure Bin Ladden, Saddam, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and countless other evil men have wondered the same thing.

Quote:

Time to step back, because your walking towards a mighty big cliff.

Yeah, its the one we throw tyrants and terrorists over.

Unlike nations like France, we stand at the edge of that cliff and face the evils of the world.

H

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:09 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Terrorists are terrorists, whether they are Muslim, Israeli, Serbian, Russian or American.

Anyone who targets a civilian population for death or injury or who destroys basic civilian infrastructure is a terrorist. Quite frankly, I'm not sure I care about the justification, whether it's as noble as "freedom" or as trivial as "He started it".

The massacre of Colombian civilians in a church, the massacre of East Timorese, Sudanese, Beslan children and parents in a school, or workers in the Twin Towers ALL deserve our outrage. One is not more deserving than another, and one action is not more culpable than another. If you are going to be anti-terrorist, just make sure you spread the blame WHEREVER it belongs.

I would generally agree with this. Actively trageting civilians for intimidation purposes should not be acceptable. In some cases infrastructure which has both military and civilian uses, such as bridges, electrical grids or transportation networks, could be considered a legitimate target of war.

Also, unfortunately, some military or para-military forces have no compunction about hiding within and firing from civilian areas, knowing that any response will cause civilian casualties.

Loss of military ethics has always been a particular problem when major powers fight proxy wars, since control over the proxies actions can never be as tight as over one's own forces.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:55 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Anyone who is Pro-Democracy, Pro-Freedom, Pro-America, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Capitalism and Anti-terrorist, Anti Islamafascist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Big Government, Anti-Dumbass ---- Is a Neo-Nazi Fascist Bigot and All-around Evil.

Well, I can't subscribe to being particularly Pro-Israel. I think they've pretty much screwed the pooch with their repressive policies towards the Palestinians.

What really interests me, though, is the tendency of some folk here to think that just because you disagree with them on some things, you disagree on everything.

For example, if I don't believe all these 'Missle hit the Pentagon', 'We're just in it for the oil/cheap labor/power', 'Bush lied about WMD just so we could invade Iraq' conspiracy theories, I must be pro-Bush. But that's not it at all. I don't believe them because they're pure bull.

No one ever mentions Bush's pandering to the religious right on abortion rights or gender issues. No one mentions stem-cell research or cloning. No one mentions health care. I have a stand on those issues, and it's not pro-Bush. I guess they'd rather live in their 'evil empire' fantasies than deal with what I consider real issues.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Anyone who is Pro-Democracy, Pro-Freedom, Pro-America, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Capitalism and Anti-terrorist, Anti Islamafascist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Big Government, Anti-Dumbass ---- Is a Neo-Nazi Fascist Bigot and All-around Evil.

Well, I can't subscribe to being particularly Pro-Israel. I think they've pretty much screwed the pooch with their repressive policies towards the Palestinians.

What really interests me, though, is the tendency of some folk here to think that just because you disagree with them on some things, you disagree on everything.

For example, if I don't believe all these 'Missle hit the Pentagon', 'We're just in it for the oil/cheap labor/power', 'Bush lied about WMD just so we could invade Iraq' conspiracy theories, I must be pro-Bush. But that's not it at all. I don't believe them because they're pure bull.

No one ever mentions Bush's pandering to the religious right on abortion rights or gender issues. No one mentions stem-cell research or cloning. No one mentions health care. I have a stand on those issues, and it's not pro-Bush. I guess they'd rather live in their 'evil empire' fantasies than deal with what I consider real issues.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Well, I agree with you almost 100%, there is one area I don't, but thats healthy IMHO. It's a damn big job being the leader of the Greatest Country in the world (I'm biased..deal with it), I still think National Security is the #1 issue at the moment. All the other things will fall into place once we have achieved that for real.

There are some things I agree with in Bush's new agenda and some I don't. I personally think that the healthcare and retirement savings plan is a good idea. Is it perfect..no. There are still a number of issues regarding it that need to be sorted out, but its a start. I disagree with his stance on Same-Sex unions, or abortion rights (though I think terminating a pregnancy after the first tri-mester for any other reason then the health of the mother is wrong, there are thousands of families waiting to adopt). Stem cell research ban is still beyond me, that one I can't figure out. Cloning Ban --also beyond me LOL.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:24 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:
I'm still suprised at this following but here it goes.

The US has passed a law in wich the parlament (or is it senate?) gives permission to invade The Netherlands should we (I'm Dutch) hold American soldiers there in the International Criminal Court. We are a NATO allie in fact and the US has legalised plans to invade us. Poeple might say 'duh you are holding our poeple.' but they would't be there without reason and if they can't be prooven guilty they will not be sentenced.

What suprises me the most is that no where on the internet or in any other country any mention of this law wich makes this claim kinda dubious. The best I could find was a newsgroup quote, but ask any Dutch person who follows the news. It at least was all over our news.

They're probably talking about either HR 1154 or HR 2050; two pieces of proposed legislation that address specifically the International Criminal Court and courts of universal jurisdiction in general. Both have been sitting in the House Committee on International Relations for over a year with no action. To see them go to http://thomas.loc.gov/ enter HR1154 or HR2050 in the "Bill Number" box and click "Search".

Then there is one law "22 USC Sec. 262-1" that prohibits extradition of a US citizen to the International Criminal Court, but there's nothing about declaring war. I think this link'll work.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t21t25+7
01+0++%28%27international%20criminal%20court%27%29%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:29 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I suspect that the old cold warriors who originated these policies 30 or 40 years ago went in with eyes open but holding their noses, because they understood there was no real win available. They probably considered right-wing dictators over Communist dictators the lesser of two evils.

Considering that the places where the leftist guerillas won, Cuba and Vietnam, are not exactly hotbeds of freedom either, I'm not sure those old commie fighters weren't correct. Since we're trading anicdotal stories... One of my co-workers is originally from Vietnam. In 1975 his father was put in a "re-education" camp for 8 years by the communist regime and was one of the lucky few to get out alive. It wasn't until '94 that they were able to get out of the country and come here.

And so we have two nations-

Colombia, where they didn't have elections until recently, and most of the population is dirt-poor and illiterate, with no runnning water, no medical service, and where people are gunned down, disappeared, or tortured to death in jail...

...and Cuba, where they don't have free elections but most people have an decent standard of living despite a US embargo, a 90% literacy rate, running water, and medical service * ... and people are disappeared. (I haven't heard of much torture in Cuban jails, have you?) (*Please see your UN rankings on human development for the statistics)

Hmmm... which to choose? Tough choice, I'll admit that!

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There is little doubt that the US could have opposed all the dictatorships that existed in the world since 1950.

It would be better if if the USA had simply not PROMOTED so many dictatorships!

Quote:
Cuba, now over 50 years in the grip of Communist slavery

With a living standard better than most other Latin Americna countries.

Quote:
Nicaraugua, which saw a fight to freedom in the '80s result in free elections in the '90s

And a dire rise in hunger, homelessness, infant mortality, and illiteracy once the country became safe for capitalism.

Quote:
Poland, South Korea, Czech Republic, Salvakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Estonia, Kuwait, Egypt, Nicaraugua, Chile, Afganistan, Japan, Germany (East and West), France, Mexico, Pakistan, Phillipines, South Africa, Guana, Panama, and Free Iraq...as you say: "the list goes on". These are a few of the nations and a few of the billions of people who have benefited from American policy since 1945.

I can't say much about the other countries, but I have realtives in Poland AND in Hungary, and while they like free elections they are not so happy with capitalism.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:46 AM

LTNOWIS

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Terrorists are terrorists, whether they are Muslim, Israeli, Serbian, Russian or American.

Anyone who targets a civilian population for death or injury or who destroys basic civilian infrastructure is a terrorist. Quite frankly, I'm not sure I care about the justification, whether it's as noble as "freedom" or as trivial as "He started it".

The massacre of Colombian civilians in a church, the massacre of East Timorese, Sudanese, Beslan children and parents in a school, or workers in the Twin Towers ALL deserve our outrage. One is not more deserving than another, and one action is not more culpable than another. If you are going to be anti-terrorist, just make sure you spread the blame WHEREVER it belongs.

I would generally agree with this. Actively trageting civilians for intimidation purposes should not be acceptable. In some cases infrastructure which has both military and civilian uses, such as bridges, electrical grids or transportation networks, could be considered a legitimate target of war.

I agree with SignyM, it's bad to target innocent civilians in principle. That raises the question, was it wrong to firebomb and nuke enemy cities in WWII? Lot's of our targets weren't infastructure, just the houses of workers, the rationale being that they'd be to demoralized to make weapons. Do you guys think that was right?

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So... individuals or groups that target innocent civilians for death are terrorists?

And since we charge Osama bin Laden with terrorism because he inspires and funds terrorists (although he hasn't actually blown himself up yet) then individuals or groups that inspire and fund OTHERS to target civilians are also terrorists?

I just want to mkae sure that I have this PERFECTLY clear.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:48 AM

DAIKATH

We haven't had Americans in the ICC so there would be no reason for it to be working.

It didnt exactly say declaring war, just occupying the space where the ICC is and take the prisoner out. No matter how you turn it it's still a breach of soverenty of a NATO allie. Even Tony Blair was said to have been dead set against it.

Personally I don't quite care about it (other then that they have plans to invade my country wich my poeple went to war for over 80 years for(long story wich is irrelevant)) but what strikes me the most is that the US media and most media totally ignores it. I don't think that is right and the poeple who determine who will lead them ought to know what they do, this is actually the first time I met a person online who knew what I was talking about and didn't just dismis it because I coudlt come up with an internet link (thanks for that btw).

But about the terrorist/hero thing. Hitler for example spoke of a train sabotage done by the Dutch resistance an act of terrorism. Nelson Mandela was also called a terrorist by the apartheid regime. But reckonizing them as actual terrorists would be falling for the ploy Hitler and the apartheid government set up.

They are not terrorists, poeple like Bin Laden en Hamas have no intention of trying to kill as few as possible poeple to get their goal, they want to kill as many heithens as possible. The ANC tried to reach their goal peacefully for 48 years before they even remotely used violence. Hitler had europe in a almost totaletarian lock where you would be caught and arrested if you did the slightest thing against the nazi occupation (my grandfather was sent to a concentrationcamp for looking at some motorcycles.. he escaped though).

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:53 AM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
China was building its worker paradise on the backs of its billion slaves.

Quote:
We freed China from the thrall of the Comintern and divided our enemies against themselves.

Just so you know, they're still selling Mao statues and busts and revering his tomb over there. They also have an authoritarian, corrupt government.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... individuals or groups that target innocent civilians for death are terrorists?

And since we charge Osama bin Laden with terrorism because he inspires and funds terrorists (although he hasn't actually blown himself up yet) then individuals or groups that inspire and fund OTHERS to target civilians are also terrorists?

I just want to mkae sure that I have this PERFECTLY clear.

Wow? LOL. I'm not sure what your after, but I'm sure it's some sort of twisted view LOL. I would have to say that yes what you state is a pretty precise definition of what a terrorist is except that terrorists target civilians and Civilian infrastructures for the sole purpose of instilling terror.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:47 PM

Yeah, its just the French

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&e=5&u=/afp/us_vot
e_poll_bush_kerry

See all the other countries opposed to your insanity

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yeah, its just the French

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&e=5&u=/afp/us_vot
e_poll_bush_kerry

See all the other countries opposed to your insanity

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

I guess it's a good thing only Americans get to vote for their leaders LOL.

They called Churchill insane too when he warned of the Nazi menace. We shall see what transpires over the next 10 years or so.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:57 PM

Churchill also wanted to institute concetration camps in India during the thirtys to quell the independance movement there

He was more than a little nuts, worked during the war but notice his lack of re-election after the war

Vote for your own leader sure, but stay at home next time, it appears your welcome is wearing out quite rapidly

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:12 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:
We haven't had Americans in the ICC so there would be no reason for it to be working.

It didnt exactly say declaring war, just occupying the space where the ICC is and take the prisoner out. No matter how you turn it it's still a breach of soverenty of a NATO allie. Even Tony Blair was said to have been dead set against it.

Personally I don't quite care about it (other then that they have plans to invade my country wich my poeple went to war for over 80 years for(long story wich is irrelevant)) but what strikes me the most is that the US media and most media totally ignores it. I don't think that is right and the poeple who determine who will lead them ought to know what they do, this is actually the first time I met a person online who knew what I was talking about and didn't just dismis it because I coudlt come up with an internet link (thanks for that btw).

I don't know how it is in Holland, but here in the U.S. most legislation is proposed with the knowledge that it will never become law. It's done either to make a point about something, or so the author can send a newsletter to his constituents saying that he is "fighting to protect our servicemen from trumped-up charges in foreign courts", for example. The media doesn't pay too much attention because the practice is so common.

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:

But about the terrorist/hero thing. Hitler for example spoke of a train sabotage done by the Dutch resistance an act of terrorism. Nelson Mandela was also called a terrorist by the apartheid regime. But reckonizing them as actual terrorists would be falling for the ploy Hitler and the apartheid government set up.

They are not terrorists, poeple like Bin Laden en Hamas have no intention of trying to kill as few as possible poeple to get their goal, they want to kill as many heithens as possible. The ANC tried to reach their goal peacefully for 48 years before they even remotely used violence. Hitler had europe in a almost totaletarian lock where you would be caught and arrested if you did the slightest thing against the nazi occupation (my grandfather was sent to a concentrationcamp for looking at some motorcycles.. he escaped though).

I would agree with this.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:02 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... individuals or groups that target innocent civilians for death are terrorists?

Ah. Here's where we slip into shades of gray. What is an "innocent civilian"? For what purpose are they "targeted for death"?

Is the man in the enemy country who builds the rifles my enemy shoots at me an innocent civilian? Is dropping a bomb on his house to prevent him making more rifles terrorism, or a legitimate act or war? If the bomb kills his wife and child...terrorism or collateral damage?

If the village chief won't willingly provide food, shelter, and men for my insurgency and I torture and kill him in front of the entire village, after doing the same to his family...Terrorism, or a sad but necessary part of the struggle for liberation?

If the village is providing food, shelter, and men for the insurgency that is killing my troops, blowing up buildings, and kidnapping and executing or ransoming foreign aid workers, is razing the village terrorism, or a legitimate act or war?

If I have been taught from youth that only those of my belief are real people, and that everyone else is a fair target, is blowing up a bus full of non-believer school-children terrorism, or the proper way to show my belief?

I could go on to propose scores or scenarios, and every one of us would probably differ on some of them. If we someday had to face those rifles, or those insurgents, our opinions might change.

There aren't just two points on the line:

Non-Terrorist.|.Terrorist

With the deciding factor being "killed a civilian". There's all those points in between where people make hard decisions between humanity and survival.

Making everything black and white simplifies it tremendously, but flies in the face of reality. If you go into battle determined to never harm a civilian, and your enemy does not follow this prohibition, you'll lose. Most countries have rules of engagement that recognize this, but that try to minimize what they consider the necessary evil of civilian casualties. Unfortunately, in some places with long-running, low intensity (relatively speaking, e.g. no big battles) wars, both sides slip over the edge and just want to kill the other side.

I don't have a solution to this. Everyone decides for themselves where the tipping point is, based on what they were taught and what their immediate circumstances are. I would guess, despite current appearances, that in the last couple of centuries it has actually gotten better.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 5:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Yeah, its just the French

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&e=5&u=/afp/us_vot
e_poll_bush_kerry

See all the other countries opposed to your insanity

A lot of people were dead wrong about Reagan as well. They opposed the hard line American policies and military buildup in the '80s. They were wrong then and wrong now. If the polls even reflect real opinion, polls are easy to manipulate.

I think that when the war is far away then its easy to catch a couple sound bites from a biased media outlet like the BBC (which makes up stories) or Al Jazeera (which is a terrorist mouthpiece, although I think they make an honost effort at fairness in thier dishonost world) and form a rash judgment.

But I guarantee that when they are called upon to bury their children by the hundreds the day after a terrorist attack on their local school, they not only pray that Bush wins the election but they secretly wish he could lead their country as well.

H

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 9:57 PM

DAIKATH

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I don't know how it is in Holland, but here in the U.S. most legislation is proposed with the knowledge that it will never become law. It's done either to make a point about something, or so the author can send a newsletter to his constituents saying that he is "fighting to protect our servicemen from trumped-up charges in foreign courts", for example. The media doesn't pay too much attention because the practice is so common.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I assume Bush made the piece of legislation (from what I understand only the US president is allowed to issue potential law).

Then I believe it is without precedent that a president tried to issue a law wherein he would have been able to invade a NATO allie (sp?) for following international law. I think that says enough personally.

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Friday, September 10, 2004 2:00 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:

I assume Bush made the piece of legislation (from what I understand only the US president is allowed to issue potential law).

Then I believe it is without precedent that a president tried to issue a law wherein he would have been able to invade a NATO allie (sp?) for following international law. I think that says enough personally.

Actually, any one of 100 Senators and 435 Representatives can propose legislation. The President can suggest legislation, but it's up to Congress to actually submit, debate, and vote on it.

All Bills (pieces of proposed legislation) are first submitted to the Senate or House(of Representatives) committee in charge of that type of bill, say Appropriations or Armed Services. The committee must approve the bill, by majority vote, before it even makes it to the floor (the full Senate or House.) It is then debated and voted on again. If it passes in the Senate, it still has to recieve the approval of the House, and vice versa. The it must be signed by the President to become law. He can also veto it, but the veto can be overturned by a 2/3 vote of congress.

The beauty of the system is actually in how slowly and inefficiently it works.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, September 10, 2004 2:43 AM