REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 09:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6714
PAGE 1 of 2

Friday, September 3, 2004 5:45 AM

GHOULMAN


Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards
By Graydon Carter
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=557746
03 September 2004

1 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security issued between 20 January 2001 and 10 September 2001 that mentioned al-Qa'ida.

104 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defence in the same period that mentioned Iraq or Saddam Hussein.

101 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defence in the same period that mentioned missile defence.

65 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defence in the same period that mentioned weapons of mass destruction.

0 Number of times Bush mentioned Osama bin Laden in his three State of the Union addresses.

73 Number of times that Bush mentioned terrorism or terrorists in his three State of the Union addresses.

83 Number of times Bush mentioned Saddam, Iraq, or regime (as in change) in his three State of the Union addresses.

$1m Estimated value of a painting the Bush Presidential Library in College Station, Texas, received from Prince Bandar, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States and Bush family friend.

0 Number of times Bush mentioned Saudi Arabia in his three State of the Union addresses.

1,700 Percentage increase between 2001 and 2002 of Saudi Arabian spending on public relations in the United States.

79 Percentage of the 11 September hijackers who came from Saudi Arabia.

3 Number of 11 September hijackers whose entry visas came through special US-Saudi "Visa Express" programme.

140 Number of Saudis, including members of the Bin Laden family, evacuated from United States almost immediately after 11 September.

14 Number of Immigration and Naturalisation Service (INS) agents assigned to track down 1,200 known illegal immigrants in the United States from countries where al-Qa'ida is active.

$3m Amount the White House was willing to grant the 9/11 Commission to investigate the 11 September attacks.

$0 Amount approved by George Bush to hire more INS special agents.

$10m Amount Bush cut from the INS's existing terrorism budget.

$50m Amount granted to the commission that looked into the Columbia space shuttle crash.

$5m Amount a 1996 federal commission was given to study legalised gambling.

7 Number of Arabic linguists fired by the US army between mid-August and mid-October 2002 for being gay.

George Bush: Military man

1972 Year that Bush walked away from his pilot duties in the Texas National Guard, Nearly two years before his six-year obligation was up.

$3,500 Reward a group of veterans offered in 2000 for anyone who could confirm Bush's Alabama guard service.

600-700 Number of guardsmen who were in Bush's unit during that period.

0 Number of guardsmen from that period who came forward with information about Bush's guard service.

0 Number of minutes that President Bush, Vice-President Dick Cheney, the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, the assistant Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, the former chairman of the Defence Policy Board, Richard Perle, and the White House Chief of Staff, Karl Rove ­ the main proponents of the war in Iraq ­served in combat (combined).

0 Number of principal civilian or Pentagon staff members who planned the war who have immediate family members serving in uniform in Iraq.

8 Number of members of the US Senate and House of Representatives who have a child serving in the military.

10 Number of days that the Pentagon spent investigating a soldier who had called the President "a joke" in a letter to the editor of a Newspaper.

46 Percentage increase in sales between 2001 and 2002 of GI Joe figures (children's toys).

Ambitious warrior

2 Number of Nations that George Bush has attacked and taken over since coming into office.

130 Approximate Number of countries (out of a total of 191 recognised by the United Nations) with a US military presence.

43 Percentage of the entire world's military spending that the US spends on defence. (That was in 2002, the year before the invasion of Iraq.)

$401.3bn Proposed military budget for 2004.

Saviour of Iraq

1983 The year in which Donald Rumsfeld, Ronald Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East, gave Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs as a gift.

2.5 Number of hours after Rumsfeld learnt that Osama bin Laden was a suspect in the 11 September attacks that he brought up reasons to "hit" Iraq.

237 Minimum number of misleading statements on Iraq made by top Bush administration officials between 2002 and January 2004, according to the California Representative Henry Waxman.

10m Estimated number of people worldwide who took to the streets on 21 February 2003, in opposition to the invasion of Iraq, the largest simultaneous protest in world history.

$2bn Estimated monthly cost of US military presence in Iraq projected by the White House in April 2003.

$4bn Actual monthly cost of the US military presence in Iraq according to Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld in 2004.

$15m Amount of a contract awarded to an American firm to build a cement factory in Iraq.

$80,000 Amount an Iraqi firm spent (using Saddam's confiscated funds) to build the same factory, after delays prevented the American firm from starting it.

2000 Year that Cheney said his policy as CEO of Halliburton oil services company was "we wouldn't do anything in Iraq".

$4.7bn Total value of contracts awarded to Halliburton in Iraq and Afghanistan.

$680m Estimated value of Iraq reconstruction contracts awarded to Bechtel.

$2.8bnValue of Bechtel Corp contracts in Iraq.

$120bn Amount the war and its aftermath are projected to cost for the 2004 fiscal year.

35 Number of countries to which the United States suspended military assistance after they failed to sign agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court.

92 Percentage of Iraq's urban areas with access to potable water in late 2002.

60 Percentage of Iraq's urban areas with access to potable water in late 2003.

55 Percentage of the Iraqi workforce who were unemployed before the war.

80 Percentage of the Iraqi workforce who are unemployed a Year after the war.

0 Number of American combat deaths in Germany after the Nazi surrender in May 1945.

37 Death toll of US soldiers in Iraq in May 2003, the month combat operations "officially" ended.

0 Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning home that the Bush administration has permitted to be photographed.

0 Number of memorial services for the returned dead that Bush has attended since the beginning of the war.

A soldier's best friend

40,000 Number of soldiers in Iraq seven months after start of the war still without Interceptor vests, designed to stop a round from an AK-47.

$60m Estimated cost of outfitting those 40,000 soldiers with Interceptor vests.

62 Percentage of gas masks that army investigators discovered did Not work properly in autumn 2002.

90 Percentage of detectors which give early warning of a biological weapons attack found to be defective.

87 Percentage of Humvees in Iraq not equipped with armour capable of stopping AK-47 rounds and protecting against roadside bombs and landmines at the end of 2003.

Making the country safer

$3.29 Average amount allocated per person Nationwide in the first round of homeland security grants.

$94.40 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in American Samoa.

$36 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in Wyoming, Vice-President Cheney's home state.

$17 Amount allocated per person in New York state.

$5.87 Amount allocated per person in New York City.

$77.92 Amount allocated per person in New Haven, Connecticut, home of Yale University, Bush's alma mater.

76 Percentage of 215 cities surveyed by the US Conference of Mayors in early 2004 that had yet to receive a dime in federal homeland security assistance for their first-response units.

5 Number of major US airports at the beginning of 2004 that the Transportation Security Administration admitted were Not fully screening baggage electronically.

22,600 Number of planes carrying unscreened cargo that fly into New York each month.

5 Estimated Percentage of US air cargo that is screened, including cargo transported on passenger planes.

95 Percentage of foreign goods that arrive in the United States by sea.

2 Percentage of those goods subjected to thorough inspection.

$5.5bnEstimated cost to secure fully US ports over the Next decade.

$0 Amount Bush allocated for port security in 2003.

$46m Amount the Bush administration has budgeted for port security in 2005.

15,000 Number of major chemical facilities in the United States.

100 Number of US chemical plants where a terrorist act could endanger the lives of more than one million people.

0 Number of new drugs or vaccines against "priority pathogens" listed by the Centres for Disease Control that have been developed and introduced since 11 September 2001.

Giving a hand up to the advantaged

$10.9m Average wealth of the members of Bush's original 16-person cabinet.

75 Percentage of Americans unaffected by Bush's sweeping 2003 cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes.

$42,000 Average savings members of Bush's cabinet received in 2003 as a result of cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes.

10 Number of fellow members from the Yale secret society Skull and Bones that Bush has named to important positions (including the Associate Attorney General Robert McCallum Jr. and SEC chief Bill Donaldson).

79 Number of Bush's initial 189 appointees who also served in his father's administration.

A man with a lot of friends

$113m Amount of total hard money the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign received, a record.

$11.5m Amount of hard money raised through the Pioneer programme, the controversial fund-raising process created for the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign. (Participants pledged to raise at least $100,000 by bundling together cheques of up to $1,000 from friends and family. Pioneers were assigned numbers, which were included on all cheques, enabling the campaign to keep track of who raised how much.)

George Bush: Money manager

4.7m Number of bankruptcies that were declared during Bush's first three years in office.

2002 The worst year for major markets since the recession of the 1970s.

$489bn The US trade deficit in 2003, the worst in history for a single year.

$5.6tr Projected national surplus forecast by the end of the decade when Bush took office in 2001.

$7.22tr US national debt by mid-2004.

George Bush: Tax cutter

87 Percentage of American families in April 2004 who say they have felt no benefit from Bush's tax cuts.

39 Percentage of tax cuts that will go to the top 1 per cent of American families when fully phased in.

49 Percentage of Americans in April 2004 who found that their taxes had actually gone up since Bush took office.

88 Percentage of American families who will save less than $100 on their 2006 federal taxes as a result of 2003 cut in capital gains and dividends taxes.

$30,858 Amount Bush himself saved in taxes in 2003.

Employment tsar

9.3m Number of US unemployed in April 2004.

2.3m Number of Americans who lost their jobs during first three Years of the Bush administration.

22m Number of jobs gained during Clinton's eight years in office.

Friend of the poor

34.6m Number of Americans living below the poverty line (1 in 8 of the population).

6.8m Number of people in the workforce but still classified as poor.

35m Number of Americans that the government defines as "food insecure," in other words, hungry.

$300m Amount cut from the federal programme that provides subsidies to poor families so they can heat their homes.

40 Percentage of wealth in the United States held by the richest 1 per cent of the population.

18 Percentage of wealth in Britain held by the richest 1e per cent of the population.

George Bush And his special friend

$60bn Loss to Enron stockholders, following the largest bankruptcy in US history.

$205m Amount Enron CEO Kenneth Lay earned from stock option profits over a four-year period.

$101m Amount Lay made from selling his Enron shares just before the company went bankrupt.

$59,339 Amount the Bush campaign reimbursed Enron for 14 trips on its corporate jet during the 2000 campaign.

30 Length of time in months between Enron's collapse and Lay (whom the President called "Kenny Boy") still not being charged with a crime.

George Bush: Lawman

15 Average number of minutes Bush spent reviewing capital punishment cases while governor of Texas.

46 Percentage of Republican federal judges when Bush came to office.

57 Percentage of Republican federal judges after three years of the Bush administration.

33 Percentage of the $15bn Bush pledged to fight Aids in Africa that must go to abstinence-only programmes.

The Civil libertarian

680 Number of suspected al-Qa'ida members that the United States admits are detained at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

42 Number of nationalities of those detainees at Guantanamo.

22 Number of hours prisoners were handcuffed, shackled, and made to wear surgical masks, earmuffs, and blindfolds during their flight to Guantanamo.

32 Number of confirmed suicide attempts by Guantanamo Bay prisoners.

24 Number of prisoners in mid-2003 being monitored by psychiatrists in Guantanamo's new mental ward.

A health-conscious president

43.6m Number of Americans without health insurance by the end of 2002 (more than 15 per cent of the population).

2.4m Number of Americans who lost their health insurance during Bush's first year in office.

Environmentalist

$44m Amount the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign and the Republican National Committee received in contributions from the fossil fuel, chemical, timber, and mining industries.

200 Number of regulation rollbacks downgrading or weakening environmental laws in Bush's first three years in office.

31 Number of Bush administration appointees who are alumni of the energy industry (includes four cabinet secretaries, the six most powerful White House officials, and more than 20 other high-level appointees).

50 Approximate number of policy changes and regulation rollbacks injurious to the environment that have been announced by the Bush administration on Fridays after 5pm, a time that makes it all but impossible for news organisations to relay the information to the widest possible audience.

50 Percentage decline in Environmental Protection Agency enforcement actions against polluters under Bush's watch.

34 Percentage decline in criminal penalties for environmental crimes since Bush took office.

50 Percentage decline in civil penalties for environmental crimes since Bush took office.

$6.1m Amount the EPA historically valued each human life when conducting economic analyses of proposed regulations.

$3.7m Amount the EPA valued each human life when conducting analyses of proposed regulations during the Bush administration.

0 Number of times Bush mentioned global warming, clean air, clean water, pollution or environment in his 2004 State of the Union speech. His father was the last president to go through an entire State of the Union address without mentioning the environment.

1 Number of paragraphs devoted to global warming in the EPA's 600-page "Draft Report on the Environment" presented in 2003.

68 Number of days after taking office that Bush decided Not to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, the international treaty to reduce greenhouse gases by roughly 5.2 per cent below 1990 levels by 2012. The United States was to cut its level by 7 per cent.

1 The rank of the United States worldwide in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

25 Percentage of overall worldwide carbon dioxide emissions the United States is responsible for.

53 Number of days after taking office that Bush reneged on his campaign promise to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from power plants.

14 Percentage carbon dioxide emissions will increase over the next 10 years under Bush's own global-warming plan (an increase of 30 per cent above their 1990 levels).

408 Number of species that could be extinct by 2050 if the global-warming trend continues.

5 Number of years the Bush administration said in 2003 that global warming must be further studied before substantive action could be taken.

62 Number of members of Cheney's 63-person Energy Task Force with ties to corporate energy interests.

0 Number of environmentalists asked to attend Cheney's Energy Task Force meetings.

6 Number of months before 11 September that Cheney's Energy Task Force investigated Iraq's oil reserves.

2 Percentage of the world's population that is British.

2 Percentage of the world's oil used by Britain.

5 Percentage of the world's population that is American.

25 Percentage of the world's oil used by America.

63 Percentage of oil the United States imported in 2003, a record high.

24,000 Estimated number of premature deaths that will occur under Bush's Clear Skies initiative.

300 Number of Clean Water Act violations by the mountaintop-mining industry in 2003.

750,000 Tons of toxic waste the US military, the world's biggest polluter, generates around the world each Year.

$3.8bn Amount in the Superfund trust fund for toxic site clean-ups in 1995, the Year "polluter pays" fees expired.

$0m Amount of uncommitted dollars in the Superfund trust fund for toxic site clean-ups in 2003.

270 Estimated number of court decisions citing federal Negligence in endangered-species protection that remained unheeded during the first year of the Bush administration.

100 Percentage of those decisions that Bush then decided to allow the government to ignore indefinitely.

68.4 Average Number of species added to the Endangered and Threatened Species list each year between 1991 and 2000.

0 Number of endangered species voluntarily added by the Bush administration since taking office.

50 Percentage of screened workers at Ground Zero who now suffer from long-term health problems, almost half of whom don't have health insurance.

78 Percentage of workers at Ground Zero who now suffer from lung ailments.

88 Percentage of workers at Ground Zero who Now suffer from ear, nose, or throat problems.

22 Asbestos levels at Ground Zero were 22 times higher than the levels in Libby, Montana, where the W R Grace mine produced one of the worst Superfund disasters in US history.

Image booster for the US

2,500 Number of public-diplomacy officers employed by the State Department to further the image of the US abroad in 1991.

1,200 Number of public-diplomacy officers employed by the State Department to further US image abroad in 2004.

4 Rank of the United States among countries considered to be the greatest threats to world peace according to a 2003 Pew Global Attitudes study (Israel, Iran, and North Korea were considered more dangerous; Iraq was considered less dangerous).

$66bn Amount the United States spent on international aid and diplomacy in 1949.

$23.8bn Amount the United States spent on international aid and diplomacy in 2002.

85 Percentage of Indonesians who had an unfavourable image of the United States in 2003.

Second-party endorsements

90 Percentage of Americans who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president on 26 September 2001.

67 Percentage of Americans who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president on 26 September 2002.

54 Percentage of Americans who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president on 30 September, 2003.

50 Percentage of Americans who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president on 15 October 2003.

49 Percentage of Americans who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president in May 2004.

More like the French than he would care to admit

28 Number of vacation days Bush took in August 2003, the second-longest vacation of any president in US history. (Record holder Richard Nixon.)

13 Number of vacation days the average American receives each Year.

28 Number of vacation days Bush took in August 2001, the month he received a 6 August Presidential Daily Briefing headed "Osama bin Laden Determined to Strike US Targets."

500 Number of days Bush has spent all or part of his time away from the White House at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, his parents' retreat in Kennebunkport, Maine, or Camp David as of 1 April 2004.

No fool when it comes to the press

11 Number of press conferences during his first three Years in office in which Bush referred to questions as being "trick" ones.

Factors in his favour

3 Number of companies that control the US voting technology market.

52 Percentage of votes cast during the 2002 midterm elections that were recorded by Election Systems & Software, the largest voting-technology firm, a big Republican donor.

29 Percentage of votes that will be cast via computer voting machines that don't produce a paper record.

17On 17 November 2001, The Economist printed a correction for having said George Bush was properly elected in 2000.

$113m Amount raised by the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign, the most in American electoral history.

$185m Amount raised by the Bush-Cheney 2004 re-election campaign, to the end of March 2004.

$200m Amount that the Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign expects to raise by November 2004.

268 Number of Bush-Cheney fund-raisers who had earned Pioneer status (by raising $100,000 each) as of March 2004.

187 Number of Bush-Cheney fund-raisers who had earned Ranger status (by raising $200,000 each) as of March 2004.

$64.2mThe Amount Pioneers and Rangers had raised for Bush-Cheney as of March 2004.

85 Percentage of Americans who can't Name the Chief Justice of the United States.

69 Percentage of Americans who believed the White House's claims in September 2003 that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 11 September attacks.

34 Percentage of Americans who believed in June 2003 that Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction" had been found.

22 Percentage of Americans who believed in May 2003 that Saddam had used his WMDs on US forces.

85 Percentage of American young adults who cannot find Afghanistan, Iraq, or Israel on a map.

30 Percentage of American young adults who cannot find the Pacific Ocean on a map.

75 Percentage of American young adults who don't know the population of the United States.

53 Percentage of Canadian young adults who don't know the population of the United States.

11 Percentage of American young adults who cannot find the United States on a map.

30 Percentage of Americans who believe that "politics and government are too complicated to understand."

Another factor in his favour

70m Estimated number of Americans who describe themselves as Evangelicals who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and who interpret the Bible as the direct word of God.

23m Number of Evangelicals who voted for Bush in 2000.

50m Number of voters in total who voted for Bush in 2000.

46 Percentage of voters who describe themselves as born-again Christians.

5 Number of states that do not use the word "evolution" in public school science courses.

This is an edited extract from "What We've Lost", by Graydon Carter, published by Little Brown on 9 September

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

For a former college drop-out from Ontario and, briefly, a lineman stringing up telegraph wires on the railways of Canada, Graydon Carter, 55, has risen to impressive heights. The editor of Vanity Fair since 1992 ­ after succeeding Tina Brown ­ he is one of America's celebrity editors with clout, glamour and a nice line in suits.

It is hard to imagine Carter doing physical work of any kind, beyond exercising his thumb on his silver Zippo lighter. His labour is restricted to rejigging headlines in his magazine ­ he is a self-confessed failure at delegation of duties ­ and swanning to Manhattan parties. Martini in hand, he cuts an almost princely and dandyish figure, with billowing shirts and similarly billowing silver hair.

The spotlight on his activities has never burned brighter. In recent months he has transformed the regular editor's letter at the front of the magazine into less of a chat about its coming contents ­ the spreads of Annie Leibowitz and rants of Christopher Hitchens ­ and more a full-bore diatribe against the world of George Bush.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 6:39 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL


2 - the number of lame-duck presidents with the name "George Bush".

Well, hopefully.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 8:44 AM

LTNOWIS


Quote:
4 Rank of the United States among countries considered to be the greatest threats to world peace according to a 2003 Pew Global Attitudes study (Israel, Iran, and North Korea were considered more dangerous; Iraq was considered less dangerous).

The poll wasn't "which of these is the greatest threat to world peace," it was simply "which of these nations is a threat to world peace." Since Israel and USA are at war, they're a threat to world peace. I know this because people were citing this as proof of global anti-semitism, and some editorial guy set the record straight.
Still, this is a pretty great list.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 9:22 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Graydon Carter by numbers:

1 Bush-hating editor with way too much time on his hands.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 9:49 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@Ghoulman
Thanks, this is beautiful


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Graydon Carter by numbers:
1 Bush-hating editor with way too much time on his hands.


Even if this is true, this still doesn't take away anything from the black and white facts posted above.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 10:15 AM

GHOULMAN


^^ Yea, Geezer is that balless git who thinks it's OK if the President lies to start a war. I guess he represents all those pussies in the USA who are afraid of the White House.

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
2 - the number of lame-duck presidents with the name "George Bush".

Well, hopefully.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! Nice 1.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 11:22 AM

SGTGUMP


This guy sounds like Michael Moore's Boyfriend.

I still haven't heard any reason to beleive that John Kerry, or Democrats in general, would be any better.



www.lp.org
www.badnarik.org
Vote Libertarian.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 2:38 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
...that balless git who thinks it's OK if the President lies to start a war. I guess he represents all those pussies in the USA who are afraid of the White House.


Oh man...Ghoulman, you are priceless. I laughed so much I nearly cried!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 3:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I guess he represents all those pussies in the USA who are afraid of the White House.


Uh, not to be contentious or anything, but shouldn't 'pussies' have been 'girlie men'?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 4:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^ Yea, Geezer is that balless git who thinks it's OK if the President lies to start a war. I guess he represents all those pussies in the USA who are afraid of the White House.



No. I just recognize propaganda from either side. You make the classic mistake of assuming that just because I don't swallow your bullshit, I believe what's spewing out of the other side's rectum instead. So sad.

If you'd like to see if I'm actually lacking in balls, the address is 2004 Ferncliff Ct. Springfield, Va. 22153. Bring it, big talker.

Edit:

Oh, and just to keep this on a civilized level. Please provide cites for all the numbers quoted in your original post. Just want to be sure they're not lies. That would be a bad thing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 5:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


From The Independent UK, url was provided. It's a respected publication, in case you aren't familiar with it.
I'm just wondering, when did facts become propaganda?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 7:03 PM

SUCCATASH


If Bush and Kerry had a public blog debate, that would be cool. But I can see Bush getting so mad he types, "Here is my address. Meet me on the White House lawn by the flagpole and I'll kick your ass."

On a more serious note, I agree with Rue on just about everything but I've read Geezer's posts and he thinks deeply and he's not a dumb ass. I agree with just about everything Ghoulman says but in this case I would venture to say Geezer is not afraid of the White House.

Rue and a few eloquent others just need to keep writing and hopefully Geezer and many more will help get us a new president this election.




"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2004 9:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Later on I did notice that Geezer's address was Virginia. GEEZER, there's no slam coming up about that. But it got me to wondering, could there be a culture clash going on? Some topics and opinions that one party takes for granted as OK causing unintended discomfort to the other?

I don't think anyone can moderate anyone else's input, but I would be unhappy if it kept people off the board. Geezer has a lot to say, but even though I sometimes disagree, I would miss hearing it.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 2:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
From The Independent UK, url was provided. It's a respected publication, in case you aren't familiar with it.
I'm just wondering, when did facts become propaganda?


Facts can always be used as propaganda. Given the time (which I won't take, BTW) one could probably come up with a similar list of negative numbers for Sen. Kerry, or most anyone else, e.g. 86 - Percent of public committee meetings Sen. Kerry has missed.

As for the Independent, headlines like "Kerry's former ally delights right wing with his treachery" and "Will American voters fall for the confidence tricks of President Bush a second time?" leave little doubt about their position.

Edit: Just remembered the classic example of propaganda, from back in the cold war era.

There was a drag race between a Russian and an American car, which the American car won. The headline in Pravda read: "Russian car finishes second in great race. American car next to last."




"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 2:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
If Bush and Kerry had a public blog debate, that would be cool. But I can see Bush getting so mad he types, "Here is my address. Meet me on the White House lawn by the flagpole and I'll kick your ass."

On a more serious note, I agree with Rue on just about everything but I've read Geezer's posts and he thinks deeply and he's not a dumb ass. I agree with just about everything Ghoulman says but in this case I would venture to say Geezer is not afraid of the White House.

Rue and a few eloquent others just need to keep writing and hopefully Geezer and many more will help get us a new president this election.




"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."


Thanks for the kind words, 'Tash. I have to admit that the events in Beslan had me self-medicating with Dewar's last night. I don't usually call people out over internet insults.

One interesting feature of on-line chat is the propensity of folk to believe that if you don't agree 100% with their chosen line of B.S., you must believe the other side's line of B.S. Some of us just call it all B.S., no matter which bull drops it.

Since most of the droppings here seem to come from the bull on the left, those are the ones that are available for my B.S. detector to detect, and me to comment on. This leads the people mentioned above to label me a "bushie", a "neo-con", or in extreme cases, a "ball-less git". Rest assured that on sites where the rightmost bull has more successful BMs, I have been called "Hippie" and "tree hugger".

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:11 AM

CAPNRAHN


Geezer, me old RPing bud - you do love being the Devil's Advocate and are drawn to debate like a moth to light!

I say keep 'em on their toes! I agree with you: Statistics can be manipulated to suit the politics of the reviewer. Heh, not to mention history ... you have to read as many sides as you can to build a ... more complete picture.

However, I do believe {Even within my confirmed status as patriotic Desert Storm veteran) that Mr. Bush is not the man I want in the White House ... well actually more so that his cronies need to be removed.

But our choices are woefully inadequate

Maybe there DOES need (as joked about in "Demolition Man" - The Schwarzenegger Presidential Library) to be an amendment to allow a naturalized foreigner to run for President!

For those far too entrenched in politics and have thusly attenuated their sense of humor - I am NOT endorsing Governor Schwarzenegger for President. Mostly because I have not followed his policies and career in running California.

But I DO state this: Whatever your beliefs/politics etc. - PLEASE VOTE this year!!! Don't assume your 'voices' cannot be heard. The ubiquitous "They" (whichever side of the fences {yes, plural} you fall on) hope to profit by American Apathy.

Let us be chad-less {so to speak} this time -- and not allow room for another "Indecision 2000" to reoccur in 2004!

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 8:07 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


first page of titles from WORLD NEWS, UK Independent. Yes, you'll find a small number (two) of unflattering adjectives. But on the whole, it highlights the important topics, not infotainment, pablum, or the 'official' government line. While you claim one (tho not you) 'could' come up with as many unflattering numbers about Kerry (over the same number of years?), I say randomly throw out half of what the UKI says. It's still a lot. And look at the seriousness of each one. Finally, from a Russian grad student, he said that the propaganda in the old USSR was never as bad as what he sees in the US. He's amazed, and terrified, how well it has been done here.

Bush and Kerry exchange blows over military service
04 September 2004
With the final echoes of the Republican convention barely faded, George Bush and John Kerry traded fierce blows in a neck-and-neck battle set to continue at fever pitch until election day on 2 November.
Clinton to have open-heart surgery after chest pains
04 September 2004
Bill Clinton was admitted to hospital in New York yesterday suffering from chest pains, and the former US president has been scheduled to undergo heart bypass surgery today.
Police clear out squatters as new Iraqi state starts to flex its muscles
04 September 2004
"The police are going to kill me unless you take me with you," said Ahmed Hussein in a terrified voice, as half a dozen angry Iraqi policemen closed in on him.
Frances takes a break in the Bahamas but Florida still braced for hurricane
04 September 2004
The whole of Florida was watching and waiting last night, trying to determine where Hurricane Frances - packing 130mph winds - was going to strike sometime later today.
Bad luck, brother - it's the wrong time of year for a Gujarati wristband
04 September 2004
There has been panic in the Indian state of Gujarat after rumours that a holy thread worn around the wrist for protection by Indian men had been tied at the wrong time mistakenly this year and would bring bad luck instead of good.
French hostages 'handed to intermediaries'
04 September 2004
Complex and secretive moves were under way last night to complete the rescue of two French journalists kidnapped in Iraq two weeks ago.
'Terrorism affects us all and we have to show complete solidarity with Russia'
04 September 2004
We will be expressing solidarity with President Putin. We hope we can see a safe solution to this crisis. We have to recognise from this appalling situation that terrorism affects us all and we have to show complete solidarity.
Republican party animals
04 September 2004
The fanatical followers of George Bush marched into Manhattan, the liberal heart of America, last Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards
03 September 2004
Scourge of terrorists everywhere
Bush: We fight not for pride, not for power, but because lives are at stake
03 September 2004
Portraying himself as a clear-minded and decisive leader, George Bush last night pledged that if elected for a second term, he would continue the fight against terrorists "not for pride, not for power," but to keep America and the world a safe place to live.
Hurricane twice size of Charley to hit US
03 September 2004
Around two-and-a-half million residents of Florida were yesterday told to evacuate their homes and seek safety as the threat of Hurricane Frances edged ever closer, its menacing presence less than 400 miles away.
Hopes for baldness cure as hairless mouse grows 'fur'
03 September 2004
Thousands of pounds have been spent and hours have painful surgery have been endured. But man's eternal quest for a full head of hair could at last be at an end.
Sodomy conviction quashed for Malaysian reformer
03 September 2004
Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysia's most prominent political prisoner, was wheeled out of prison yesterday and set free after the country's highest court quashed a sodomy charge against the former deputy prime Feminist anger as Bryant rape case is dropped
03 September 2004
The dismissal of rape charges against the basketball superstar Kobe Bryant caused ripples of disquiet yesterday among feminist activists and legal experts, who said the young woman at the centre of the case was subjected to death threats, court errors and gross invasions of her privacy before deciding the prosecution was too much for her to bear.
Turkish hostages found dead in Iraq
03 September 2004
The bodies of two Turks taken hostage in Iraq, and a third unidentified man, have been found at a remote farm in the north of the country.
South Korea admits nuclear experiments
03 September 2004
Officials in South Korea have told the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that government scientists conducted nuclear experiments to enrich uranium four years ago.
Thousands arrested in battle for New York
03 September 2004
There have been complaints and plaudits for the New York police this week as they toiled to contain myriad protests that erupted in Manhattan, arresting almost 2,000 people over four days, but mostly managing to keep activists away from the Republican Convention.
Kerry's former ally delights right wing with his treachery
03 September 2004
Politics is a rough old trade. But rarely can it have been rougher, nastier and more downright poisonous than when Zell Miller turned on John Kerry from the rostrum of the Republican convention on primetime national TV, to brand his former Democratic colleague in the Senate (and one-time friend) as little short of a traitor.
New dirt thrown in squabble over candidates' war records
03 September 2004
The controversy over John Kerry's Vietnam War record looked set yesterday to escalate into a duel between the two competing presidential campaigns, after new, unflattering details emerged about George Bush's much questioned National Guard Edwards: Bush has taken US to the edge of the cliff
03 September 2004
The Democrats are not taking the assaults from the Republicans lying down, or windsurfing as John Kerry was at the beginning of the week.
Convention diary
03 September 2004
Now we know it's true. Executives at Fox News, the 24-hour news channel created by Rupert Murdoch, are forever denying allegations that it is a mouthpiece for the Republican Party.
Rape charge against basketball superstar is dismissed
02 September 2004
A rape charge against US basketball superstar Kobe Bryant has been dismissed by a Colorado judge after his alleged victim refused to give evidence.
Cheney delivers a hatchet job on 'confused' Kerry
02 September 2004
Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, last night delivered a stinging attack on John Kerry, arguing that the Democratic challenger simply could not be trusted with the White House at a crossroads in US history, when the stakes for the country could not be higher.
UN warns Sudan over attacks on villagers
02 September 2004
Kofi Annan criticised the Sudanese government yesterday for failing to halt attacks on civilians in Darfur and called for an expanded international force to be dispatched quickly to the troubled region.
Chalabi attacked on road to inaugural assembly meeting
02 September 2004
A convoy carrying the Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmed Chalabi was ambushed yesterday by gunmen in an apparent assassination attempt that left two of his bodyguards wounded.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 10:06 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Facts can always be used as propaganda.


I think that the key word here is "used". This is quite different from what actually was posted in the first post of this thread. There was a point by point assessment of what GWB *has* done. There wasn't really any judgment, just the facts, ie:

2 Percentage of the world's population that is British.
2 Percentage of the world's oil used by Britain.
5 Percentage of the world's population that is American.
25 Percentage of the world's oil used by America.

This means that the either the US uses too much oil or the Brits are quite conservative with there's. I would conclude that the Brits are conservative with there oil, *but* given the *large* difference in percent usage vs percent population that the americans as well *do* use *far* too much. NOTE: This isn't a comment on GWB or Kerry, it's a comment on the US in general.

This *is* a fact, period. Is it good, bad? Does it really matter? These are things that might be considered propaganda when someone *interprets* these facts, which IMO, hasn't been done in the above mentioned post. You do that yourself.

It is a grand list, eh? How one could support someone with this on his resume I do not know. And if the opposition could come up with one for Kerry, then I'd gladly read that as well. Though from what I've seen, I don't really think that'll happen.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 1:06 PM

HKCAVALIER


The most dangerous problem with this "everything is propaganda" argument is that it pretty much renders the possibility of the government doing anything wrong mute. Anything the least bit damning is labeled "propaganda."

A list like the above, is mainly a bunch of facts. That they imply that G. W.'s got "a lot of 'splaining to do" does not magically turn them into "propaganda." If you care about the things his administration is destroying then G. W. is bad news. That is not a distortion, it's an interpretation. But the "everything is propaganda" types will say that all interpretation is distortion.

You think this could be a sneaky result of intellectual trickle-down from quantum physics? a cheesy distortion of the uncertainty principle? All observation alters data, ergo, all (observed) facts are propaganda? The act of reading the list renders it propaganda? God help us.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2004 5:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I agree. "Everything is propaganda" is a pointless argument.

Geezer- instead of dismissing the criticisms as "propagand" you should be asking:

Are the individual facts true?
Are they "representative" of the totality?
Are they significant?

If the answers are "yes" (and and I think they are) then we should dispense with meaningless (and misleading) generalizations and figure out what to do about it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 5, 2004 6:55 AM

SEVEREN


Facts are not propaganda, but the use of the facts can be. Many of the numbers stated are not under the control of the Bush administration, and, in fact have nothing to do with the president. Presidents always get to much credit and too much of the blame. Bush and his administration have made some mistakes in the execution of their policy. Namely, listening to Chalabi (I think I spelled that right) in the first place. The Iraqi exile has only had his own interests in mind from the start and the current shunning of him by the Bush admin. is evidence that they have figured out Chalabi's motives. By the way, much of the bogus intel on WMD has come form Chalabi.

As far as John Kerry is concerned, He has not said he would do anything different now than what Bush is already doing. Granted, Bush should have done some of the things Kerry has suggested much sooner. Hindsight is always 20/20. It is disingenuous of Kerry to state what he would have done after the fact.

Back to the list of numerical facts, many of the statements are subtle hints at conspiracy theory and conspiracy theories are unreliable at best.

From the Department of Rendundancy Department.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 5, 2004 7:06 AM

SEVEREN


There are absolutes and your statement about "no absolutes" is contradictory.

CAPNRAHN,I agree that every informed American should vote, but if an individual is apathetic, then I don't wish them to make an uninformed choice.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:52 AM

CAPNRAHN


Severen :
The statement about absolutes is supposed to contradictory - I forget the term, but the best was to illustrate it is this old chestnut:

"If God is all-powerful, could he make a boulder he could not lift."

I use the 'Absoultes' tag line to illustrate that things are NOT black and white. You may have interperted it incorrectly. In addition, the debate of absolutes is a subjective one, due to no-one knowing everything there is to know. To do so is self serving and gets nowhere. I prefer to challeng myself and explore, instead of telling myself that I know everything and everything has a certain niche. Example: Even Albert Einstein stated that the speed of light may be a local spatial phenomena.

Whoops, I spun off track there fer a sec - back to the real point.


And apathy indicates an unwillingness to even haul their butt off the couch to run to the polls.

If you will note, I said
Quote:
But I DO state this: Whatever your beliefs/politics etc. - PLEASE VOTE this year!!! Don't assume your 'voices' cannot be heard. The ubiquitous "They" (whichever side of the fences {yes, plural} you fall on) hope to profit by American Apathy.
I NEVER advocated an uninformed choice. The "Whichever side of the Fences you fall on" comment should have made THAT clear. Please do not misinterpret my intent when my word choice was carefully crafted.

It is the very apathy and unwillingness to do a bit of research and so forth that the 'ones craving power' are counting on. To put a paranoid spin on it.

"They" hope the public will be too caught up in the 'Circus Maximus' of Springer-like talk shows, WWE and reality tv to be interested in the real world.

We really are on the same frequency.

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 6, 2004 9:33 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Severen:

Back to the list of numerical facts, many of the statements are subtle hints at conspiracy theory and conspiracy theories are unreliable at best.


I think that you are reading too much into it. I also think that those subtle hints that you describe are put there by you while you read, as I read no such thing. Perhaps this is a hope that these facts are just propagand, perhaps its just your subtle way to try to discredit this article, who knows?

The problem with reading things of this sort is that no matter how hard you try you can't really get rid of those feelings (this is after all a charged subject). The challenge is to notice them and ignore them (ie your feelings don't change the facts). Otherwise everything should be ignored because the author has written with his/her own slant.

The job of the journalist is to write with as much objectivity as possible and our job is to compensate for any non-objectivity that is there. This article require little to no compenstation as it is well written ie numbers don't lie and anything else you put on top of them is your own doing and no-one else's.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Making the country safer

$3.29 Average amount allocated per person Nationwide in the first round of homeland security grants.

$94.40 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in American Samoa.

$36 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in Wyoming, Vice-President Cheney's home state.

$17 Amount allocated per person in New York state.

$5.87 Amount allocated per person in New York City.

$77.92 Amount allocated per person in New Haven, Connecticut, home of Yale University, Bush's alma mater.



So on the "Facts are just Facts" front, lets take just this little segment. Sure appears that Bush and Cheney are looking out after their own, while leaving poor NYC defenseless. Bastards. Hell, I bet Dubya's home state of Texas has $100.00 per person. Lets see. A little Google turns this up.

http://www.house.gov/maloney/issues/Homeland/StateAllocations.pdf

Lets look at the 2003 figures. Texas...$8.73? That can't be right! And check the totals per state rather than per capita. N.Y. = $330 million and Wyoming just $24 mil. Hmm. Any trends here?

Looks like large states with low populations (Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, North & South Dakota, etc) get lots per capita, but not a lot overall. Seems reasonable. Lots of ground, and ground transportation, to protect, but not too many folk = high per capita.

Pretty much the same for island territories with small populations (Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Isl., Northern Marianas) With their low populations, even a couple of million divided per capita looks like a lot.

Now about New York. Looks like they get about the same as any mid-size, mid-population state.


And the cities. Here's a breakdown.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Grants-ODP-04.pdf

Let's look at New Haven and the cities above and below it on the list.

San Jose: population 894943. Area 175 sq miles
New Haven: population 123626. Area 18.7 sq miles
Tampa: population 303449. Area 112 Sq miles

But...New Haven, and the surrounding New Haven county (pop 824008) aren't part of megalopoli like the San Jose/S.F./Oakland one, or the Tampa/St.Pete one. So since they can't share the load with other nearby municipalities, maybe they should get a bit more.

And NYC. 8 million people in 321 Sq miles. $46 mil allocated. Twice as much as for the entire 97,818 square miles of Wyoming.

And even after all this figuring, there is no evidence provided in Mr. Carter's list that either Cheney or Bush had anything to do with DHS allocations to Wyoming or New Haven. There's just the implication.

Sorry, guys. It's propaganda.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:26 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^ Yea, Geezer is that balless git who thinks it's OK if the President lies to start a war. I guess he represents all those pussies in the USA who are afraid of the White House.



No. I just recognize propaganda from either side. You make the classic mistake of assuming that just because I don't swallow your bullshit, I believe what's spewing out of the other side's rectum instead. So sad.

If you'd like to see if I'm actually lacking in balls, the address is 2004 Ferncliff Ct. Springfield, Va. 22153. Bring it, big talker.

Edit:

Oh, and just to keep this on a civilized level. Please provide cites for all the numbers quoted in your original post. Just want to be sure they're not lies. That would be a bad thing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Nice pic you got there. Is that your "Head Boy" grad photo or just an award for best brownshirt tea bagger?

See how his sort label people then label the facts as "propoganda"?

To be propoganda it must be created by commitee. Hence - Micheal Moores docu/movie can't possibly be propoganda.

So why do the Bushites call Moores' work propoganda? Because like Geezr... they are LIARS!

But I guess Americans in general think lieing is OK! Woo Hoo! Let's go kill some towel heads! Let's torture them too! Let's ride thier mothers like donkeys!

Why?

Well, thier president lied to the world and illegally attacked Iraq, killing tens of thousands (we don't know how many because the White House ordered that no info leave Iraq uncensored).

The War on Terror... brought to you for the next three generations by the Bushites and our leader Dick Cheney who is now the richest man around thanks to all that Iraqi Oil he stole.

... *chuckle*... it's just so obvious. Why doesn't anyone say anything? Because the USA is lost? The fix is in? Will the Bushites just steal this election?

Is it already over?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:30 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Making the country safer

$3.29 Average amount allocated per person Nationwide in the first round of homeland security grants.

$94.40 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in American Samoa.

$36 Amount allocated per person for homeland security in Wyoming, Vice-President Cheney's home state.

$17 Amount allocated per person in New York state.

$5.87 Amount allocated per person in New York City.

$77.92 Amount allocated per person in New Haven, Connecticut, home of Yale University, Bush's alma mater.



So on the "Facts are just Facts" front, lets take just this little segment. Sure appears that Bush and Cheney are looking out after their own, while leaving poor NYC defenseless. Bastards. Hell, I bet Dubya's home state of Texas has $100.00 per person. Lets see. A little Google turns this up.

http://www.house.gov/maloney/issues/Homeland/StateAllocations.pdf

Lets look at the 2003 figures. Texas...$8.73? That can't be right! And check the totals per state rather than per capita. N.Y. = $330 million and Wyoming just $24 mil. Hmm. Any trends here?

Looks like large states with low populations (Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, North & South Dakota, etc) get lots per capita, but not a lot overall. Seems reasonable. Lots of ground, and ground transportation, to protect, but not too many folk = high per capita.

Pretty much the same for island territories with small populations (Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Isl., Northern Marianas) With their low populations, even a couple of million divided per capita looks like a lot.

Now about New York. Looks like they get about the same as any mid-size, mid-population state.


And the cities. Here's a breakdown.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Grants-ODP-04.pdf

Let's look at New Haven and the cities above and below it on the list.

San Jose: population 894943. Area 175 sq miles
New Haven: population 123626. Area 18.7 sq miles
Tampa: population 303449. Area 112 Sq miles

But...New Haven, and the surrounding New Haven county (pop 824008) aren't part of megalopoli like the San Jose/S.F./Oakland one, or the Tampa/St.Pete one. So since they can't share the load with other nearby municipalities, maybe they should get a bit more.

And NYC. 8 million people in 321 Sq miles. $46 mil allocated. Twice as much as for the entire 97,818 square miles of Wyoming.

And even after all this figuring, there is no evidence provided in Mr. Carter's list that either Cheney or Bush had anything to do with DHS allocations to Wyoming or New Haven. There's just the implication.

Sorry, guys. It's propaganda.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

You realize there are numousous court cases brought forward BECAUSE of these low compensations from the US government? Right? You do know that victems of 9/11 are argueing this right?

You do realize you are telling victems of 9/11 they are lairs. You do know this right?

BTW Geezer... how much do you get paid to spew this garbage online? That is, how much do the Reps pay you for your propoganda?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 5:32 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

A little Google turns this up.

http://www.house.gov/maloney/issues/Homeland/StateAllocations.pdf



From the document linked above:
""
Amounts do not represent what has been distributed, but what has been allocated. The state allocation amounts do not reflect what has been distributed to the states or territories, but what BHS or HHS has allocated to them. Some of the grant programs provide funding to states through reimbursement, such as ODP homeland security grant programs.
""

So, these numbers don't include certain moneies given to the states. Governments sure like hidding things don't they

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
You realize there are numousous court cases brought forward BECAUSE of these low compensations from the US government? Right? You do know that victems of 9/11 are argueing this right?

You do realize you are telling victems of 9/11 they are lairs. You do know this right?

BTW Geezer... how much do you get paid to spew this garbage online? That is, how much do the Reps pay you for your propoganda?


Do you even read what you post? the figures both Mr. Carter and I quote above have nothing to do with the victims compensation for 9/11. They are the amounts allocated to various states and municipalities for homeland security. Looking at his figures, it appears the sources I quoted are the same ones he used.

And unlike Mr. Carter, who probably got paid for both his book and the extract that was printed in the Independent, I just do this as a public service.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
From the document linked above:
""
Amounts do not represent what has been distributed, but what has been allocated. The state allocation amounts do not reflect what has been distributed to the states or territories, but what BHS or HHS has allocated to them. Some of the grant programs provide funding to states through reimbursement, such as ODP homeland security grant programs.
""

So, these numbers don't include certain moneies given to the states. Governments sure like hidding things don't they

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show


The second document is the one that covers the ODP grants. Pretty well hidden? Don't think so.

It does appear that Mr. Carter got the per capita info for states from the first doc and the info relating to cities from the second(by dividing dollars allocated by estimated 2003 populations).

But why are you guys nitpicking? I thought facts were facts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:20 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

The second document is the one that covers the ODP grants. Pretty well hidden? Don't think so.


Page 1:
Texas 115,110,000 second only to California. And what grants/whatever isn't recorded in these documents. Seeing my point yet?

You seem to be attempting to mislead anyone that may read this thread by attempting to weaken my position by pointing out that I didn't read one out of the two documents. But, you seem to have missed the point.

That being that clearly according to the first document some numbers aren't included in the study. Thus the hiding money point.

Secondly, pointing out that I didn't read the second document just strengthened the defense of the article posted in the first post and weakened your crit of it.

Anything else you'd care to bring up?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:34 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Nice pic you got there. Is that your "Head Boy" grad photo or just an award for best brownshirt tea bagger?

See how his sort label people then label the facts as "propoganda"?

To be propoganda it must be created by commitee. Hence - Micheal Moores docu/movie can't possibly be propoganda.



The picture is Robert Heinlein, and is used for my Firefly Roleplay character Roosevelt Thorne.

You have an interesting take on the definition of 'propaganda'. I've yet to see any that requires it to be created by committee. Relying on good ole Google again, see here for several definitions:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oi=defmore&q=define:pr
opaganda

The Webster's 9th New Collegiate on my desk gives three. #1 is the Congregatio de propaganda fide and can probably be ignored in this discussion. #2 - The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person. #3 - Ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause.

Hmm. No requirement for a committee.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Page 1:
Texas 115,110,000 second only to California. And what grants/whatever isn't recorded in these documents. Seeing my point yet?



Not really. I found both these documents in less than 5 minutes of research, starting from zero, to check the figures Mr. Carter used. The first covers specifically DHS and HHS allocations, and mentions that there are other grants from ODP. The second document covers the ODP grants (different money). They are obviously the same documents Mr. Carter used to get the info for his article, since amounts match exactly. So what's hidden?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:14 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Page 1:
Texas 115,110,000 second only to California. And what grants/whatever isn't recorded in these documents. Seeing my point yet?



Not really. I found both these documents in less than 5 minutes of research, starting from zero, to check the figures Mr. Carter used. The first covers specifically DHS and HHS allocations, and mentions that there are other grants from ODP. The second document covers the ODP grants (different money). They are obviously the same documents Mr. Carter used to get the info for his article, since amounts match exactly. So what's hidden?

"Keep the Shiny side up"


Again from your document posted:

"Some of the grant programs provide funding to states through reimbursement, such as ODP..."

SUCH AS. Meaning *not* only. What else isn't included in these numbers? Just because they give you a break down *doesn't* mean that it's all that there is to break down. There wording even supports this! SUCH AS.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Again from your document posted:

"Some of the grant programs provide funding to states through reimbursement, such as ODP..."

SUCH AS. Meaning *not* only. What else isn't included in these numbers? Just because they give you a break down *doesn't* mean that it's all that there is to break down. There wording even supports this! SUCH AS.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show



Look. I searched out these documents so I could check on the figures Mr. Carter used in his list (The list at the beginning of this thread. The original topic, remember?). They appear to be where he got his numbers. That was my only reason for bringing them up. If you want to go off on another conspiracy theory, be my guest. I was just fact-checking Mr. Carter's work.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 3:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

"Some of the grant programs provide funding to states through reimbursement, such as ODP..."

SUCH AS. Meaning *not* only. What else isn't included in these numbers? Just because they give you a break down *doesn't* mean that it's all that there is to break down. There wording even supports this! SUCH AS.



I was going to let this drop, but I just can't stand it.

The document you refer to was created by the Congressional Research Service, part of the Library of Congress, possibly at the request of Rep. Maloney, since it's on his site. It states very clearly what information it does and does not contain. It explains the methodology used to arrive at the figures shown. It provides cites for more detailed information. It states "Amounts do not represent what has been distributed, but what has been allocated.", since that's probably what was requested, allocations. it then notes "that some of the grant programs provide money through reembursement grants...". Reembursements, not allocations, so they're not included.

Did you do any research to find other sources of homeland security allocation or reembursement figures? Even just looking at the ones cited in this report? No. You went off on a "The Government is hiding things from us!" rant. Stop and think about this for a second. Does it seem a fair or logical thing for you to do? Does it even seem rational?

At least do a little research. That's what I did when I questioned Mr. Carter's presentation.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:02 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Nice pic you got there. Is that your "Head Boy" grad photo or just an award for best brownshirt tea bagger?

See how his sort label people then label the facts as "propoganda"?

To be propoganda it must be created by commitee. Hence - Micheal Moores docu/movie can't possibly be propoganda.



The picture is Robert Heinlein, and is used for my Firefly Roleplay character Roosevelt Thorne.

You have an interesting take on the definition of 'propaganda'. I've yet to see any that requires it to be created by committee. Relying on good ole Google again, see here for several definitions:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oi=defmore&q=define:pr
opaganda

The Webster's 9th New Collegiate on my desk gives three. #1 is the Congregatio de propaganda fide and can probably be ignored in this discussion. #2 - The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person. #3 - Ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause.

Hmm. No requirement for a committee.



... any organization (a "commitee" say) or plan for spreading a particular doctrine or a system of principles. I can look up words too... how did Geezer fail to do this?

Isn't it amazing how CNN, FOX, Dicky Cheney, and liars like Geezer here, who is a paid propagandist, have convinced all of America that Micheal Moores' movie is propaganda without using a dictionary?

Nice try moron but one man cannot be a propagandist. Period. REALITY!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:20 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Nice try moron but one man cannot be a propagandist. Period. REALITY!


LOL you kill me brother. I just about peed my pants when I read this. In one sentence you managed to criticize someone for being a moron, while completely contradicting your own statement. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA *tears stream down my face

Here we go,:

Meaning of PROPAGANDIST
Pronunciation: `prâpu'gandist

WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] a person who disseminates messages calculated to assist some cause or some government
[adj] of or relating to or characterized by propaganda


Synonyms: propagandistic

See Also: communicator, Goebbels, Joseph Goebbels, Paul Joseph Goebbels, sloganeer




Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Prop`a*gan"dist\, n. [Cf. F. propagandiste.]
A person who devotes himself to the spread of any system of
principles. ``Political propagandists.'' --Walsh.


Here's the link as well ROFLMAO , but hey if you say that no one man can be a "PROPAGANDIST" **still laughing balls off** , then it must be true. Thanks for that, I needed it today LOL

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/propagandist


PS - Michael Moore is indeed a Propagandist and not a Documentarian. He's a Goram talented one too. "Roger & Me" was the best piece of Propaganda I've ever seen. However that doesn't mean he is above reproach.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 8:28 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...


Okay, I'm jumping in here because Ghoulman really pisses me off. I'm not here to support either side, only to put in my two cents.

Ghoulman - I respect you for your opinion and for the fact that you stand strongly by your beliefs. More people need to be like that.

Now, that is where my respect for you stops. It's one thing to stand up for your beliefs, but it's another thing to bash people because their line of thinking tends to differ from yours. The entire time I've been on this board, with the exception of a brief line of sympathy for a fellow browncoat, every post of yours that I have read has been put there to tear down someone who dares to challenge the mighty Ghoulman. In FireflyFans.net, you have found a platform to voice your viewpoint on the world, which is what this site is here for, but you have abused that privilege time and time again. You constantly insult and humiliate anyone who walks a different path from the one that you saunter down. Debate is a good thing, but only if it is done with respect to all parties involed and their stances on what is being discussed.

In this, Ghoulman, your way is not the right way. Or the left way, for that matter.

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 9:34 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Guys, havent you figured by now that Ghoulman is a troll; a sophisticated troll, to be sure, and sometimes he makes good points. But sooner or later he's down there under the bridge again trying to start a flame war just like the rawest pimple-faced 16-year-old.

See wikipedia for a nice definition of a troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 9:37 AM

GHOULMAN


Oh, I'm so sorry I lost your respect. HAHAHA!

I don't give a rats ass what a bunch of lieing shits on this BBS think. I do this mainly to piss off Geezer and all those other paid liars online who go around trolling people to forward thier political agenda... THAT'S PROPAGANDA pal.

In the USA these days, apparently, if you are a liar, or even just plain stupidly wrong... that's considered a valid opinion.

Well, it isn't. Not in REALITY.

Just because Geezer lies in post after post, even redefining the meaning of the word "propaganda" (as the Bushites have ordered thier minions to do on TV over and over and over and over... get it?). Those of us who take the families of 9/11 victems seriously, those of us horrified that yet again US troops are thrown into an illegal War, those of us who know that right now the USA is a police state (depending on your class and colour),AND those of us who wish the 30,000 or so dead Iraqis didn't die for Oil, WILL NOT tolerate LIARS TO THE PEOPLE.

Of course, it's easy to talk about me and anything else but the facts I presented...
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Graydon Carter by numbers:

1 Bush-hating editor with way too much time on his hands.

This is Geezers attack on me. It's called a troll... guess you are a newbie SoulOfSerenity and aren't aware of basic Internet politness. Once he posted this all bets were off.

Do you think a lie is an opinion? Well, it ain't. Welcome to the real world Neo.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 9:52 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...


I'm not a newbie. Been here quite a while, in fact. I'm sorry, but that comment by Geezer pales in comparison to the things I read from you. By the way, Basic Internet Politness? Ironic, coming from you.

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 10:02 AM

GHOULMAN


^^^ and what Geezer posts pales to the truth.

The things you read from me eh. Like what? Like how I tell liars to f*ck off? Wow, I'm a horrible person! Put me in jail!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 10:17 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...


Let me bring it down for you:

Dude, chill. Be civilized. You can hate Geezer without resorting to immaturity. Try it sometime.

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:38 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Geezer
I'm not going off on some conspiracy theory. But there own admission they have left things out. I point this out and say that they are hidding things from us. How can that be going on some sort of conspiracy theory? Yes, of course, pointing out flaws indocuments, that must be my failing.

This administration has lied countless times in the past. They have contradicted themselves on more occassion and have tip-toed up to that line in the sand which if you cross would be a lie even more time than the other combined. This isn't propaganda it's fact. How many times has GW gotten up and said something and the next day it was taken back or corrected or...

And I didn't go off on, to quote you:

"
You went off on a "The Government is hiding things from us!" rant.
"

I pointed out that the government, by it's own admission, is hidding things from the US citizens (I know it's hard for you to believe, but there are those of us that are *not* american.). And by the way, this *has* been documented *many* times in the past. I believe that the pentagon papers would be a good example.

You have a government that has a history of hidding vital information for it's citizens. You have a current administration that has been caught with its pants down on, let's just say, a number of occasions.

So, in this light, do my questions and accusations seem rational? fair, logical? I think they do. Perhaps you should stop and think about that.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:09 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Snopes is on the job of unpacking all these numbers as we speak.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/numbers.asp

It's a pretty long list however many of the bullet points are very easy to verify so I would expect them to publish their results in the next week.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 10, 2004 1:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

I'm not going off on some conspiracy theory. But there own admission they have left things out. I point this out and say that they are hidding things from us. How can that be going on some sort of conspiracy theory? Yes, of course, pointing out flaws indocuments, that must be my failing.


Of course they left things out. They left out things that were outside of the scope of the report. They noted that there were other things outside the scope of the report. If the requests they get from congressmen are anything like the requests for briefing papers we get at my work, they know not to include stuff that's not asked for. They want to provide something thats short, easy to comprehend, and addresses the point.

Quote:

And I didn't go off on, to quote you:

"You went off on a "The Government is hiding things from us!" rant."


Sorry. I considered "SUCH AS. Meaning *not* only. What else isn't included in these numbers? Just because they give you a break down *doesn't* mean that it's all that there is to break down. There wording even supports this! SUCH AS." a rant. Capitalization being considered internet shouting and all.

Quote:

So, in this light, do my questions and accusations seem rational? fair, logical? I think they do. Perhaps you should stop and think about that.


I guess if I automatically considered everything the goverment says a lie, I might agree with you. Since I consider them too inefficient to spin such a massive web of deceit, I accept what seems to me the obvious answer, as noted above; somebody provided the information requested, and noted that there was other information available.




"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 10, 2004 1:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Of course, it's easy to talk about me and anything else but the facts I presented...
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Graydon Carter by numbers:

1 Bush-hating editor with way too much time on his hands.

This is Geezers attack on me. It's called a troll... guess you are a newbie SoulOfSerenity and aren't aware of basic Internet politness. Once he posted this all bets were off.

Do you think a lie is an opinion? Well, it ain't. Welcome to the real world Neo.


Ghoul...dude! I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about Graydon Carter. As noted in your original post...
"In recent months he has transformed the regular editor's letter at the front of the magazine into less of a chat about its coming contents ­ the spreads of Annie Leibowitz and rants of Christopher Hitchens ­ and more a full-bore diatribe against the world of George Bush."

So Graydon Carter is an editor, and writes diatribes against Bush, leading one to believe he hates, or at least dislikes, him. If he did all the research for his article himself, he seems to have plenty of time on his hands, but, Okay, maybe he is busy, and has researchers dig up the figures he uses. Still, I think "Bush-hating editor with too much time on his hands" fits him pretty well. Hey, two out of three ain't bad.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 10, 2004 6:02 AM

GHOULMAN


You dissed the topic, not me. If you don't like the facts... tell us why.

NEVER just piss on the topic. That's rude, childish and yes, still a "troll".

Post after post of anything but the topic posted... Geezer loves to lead every thread he's in away from the topic.

Strawmen everywhere.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 10, 2004 6:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
You dissed the topic, not me. If you don't like the facts... tell us why.

NEVER just piss on the topic. That's rude, childish and yes, still a "troll".

Post after post of anything but the topic posted... Geezer loves to lead every thread he's in away from the topic.

Strawmen everywhere.


I thought that my post above, timestamped 09/07/2004 at 07:20, addressed the facts, and Mr. Carter's misuse of them, pretty well. Checked Mr. Carter's figures, gave cites for the data used, mentioned some conclusions he didn't make, etc. Hardly leading the thread away from the topic.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
So, how ya feelin’ about World War 3?
Sat, November 30, 2024 19:32 - 48 posts
What's wrong with conspiracy theories
Sat, November 30, 2024 19:28 - 22 posts
A History of Violence, what are people thinking?
Sat, November 30, 2024 19:16 - 19 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Sat, November 30, 2024 19:16 - 4794 posts
Browncoats, we have a problem
Sat, November 30, 2024 18:41 - 15 posts
Sentencing Thread
Sat, November 30, 2024 18:39 - 382 posts
Ukraine Recommits To NATO
Sat, November 30, 2024 18:37 - 27 posts
Elon Musk
Sat, November 30, 2024 18:36 - 36 posts
Another Putin Disaster
Sat, November 30, 2024 17:58 - 1542 posts
A thread for Democrats Only
Sat, November 30, 2024 17:40 - 6932 posts
Hollywood LOVES them some Harvey Weinstein!!
Sat, November 30, 2024 14:33 - 16 posts
Manbij, Syria - 4 Americans Killed
Sat, November 30, 2024 14:06 - 6 posts
 VIEW MORE TOPICS 

FFF.NET SOCIAL