And in real news.... by AURaptor

DALEK!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2012/08/15/russian-attack-sub
marines-and-the-washington-free-beacons-latest-non-story/

From this story, sums it up nicely...

"Now if you read between the lines it’s pretty clear that this article is far more about the (completely and perfectly justified) cuts to the navy’s bloated anti-submarine warfare budget than it is to any real threat to American security. I seem to recall that we’re in the middle of a global war on terror, and I also recall that non-state actors aren’t exactly famous for their submersibles. There are many real and pressing threats to American security, and in a world of limited resources it is perfectly defensible to re-allocate funding that would be used in a field (anti-submarine warfare) where there is little apparent need towards other far more urgent priorities.

But even in the most alarmist possible reading, a reading in which the dastardly Barack Obama has completely gutted the US Navy’s ability to detect foreign attack submarines, what is supposed to be the result? The Russians will… start hunting our merchant ships? Torpedo oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico? Launch cruise missiles at Bourbon Street in New Orleans? Will they, to riff off of a great line from everyone’s favorite submarine movie The Hunt for Red October, sail into New York harbor, pop the hatch and loudly cheer privet to an astonished group of onlookers? What will they do with the ability to operate undetected?

I honestly don’t get what the Russian threat is supposed to equate to in practical, real world terms, nor do I understand how the fact that an Akula cruised around the Gulf of Mexico for a few weeks actually negatively impacts US national security. The US and Russia, you’ll recall, have massive nuclear arsenals that can end human civilization within the span of an hour. Compared to this, the fact that a twenty year old tin can sailed near Cuba seems paltry and insignificant."

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:09 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

... the fact that a twenty year old tin can sailed near Cuba seems paltry and insignificant."

sailed around completely undetected, is the key here.

Seems you'd like to just gloss over that tiny detail.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:22 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
sailed around completely undetected, is the key here.

Seems you'd like to just gloss over that tiny detail.

Did not miss it. It was not detected...so?

What was a single sub going to do? The answer is not a whole hell of a lot. Russia is nto going to attack us, for one. Nor is anyone else. Even it someone decided to they are not going to send a single sub.

You like to talk about wasting money, well spending millions to detect as was put, a twenty year old tin can, is a waste.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:33 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Are Russian ships allowed to sail in international waters?

Do we have to track every ship, every sub, every watercraft on Earth? Seems a bit Big Brotherish. Big gubmint, even. You could even call it "statist".

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:36 AM

Quote:
It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.

We have no way of knowing or confirming this. It's "only the second time" that we know of.

Maybe I'm just not paranoid enough about the Russkies taking over. Maybe I realize that Red Dawn was just a movie, a work of fiction, and a pretty terrible one at that...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 5:33 AM

STORYMARK

You're both being childish for not wetting yourselves over this like Rappy.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ay-yup, Mark. Jezus, aren't we past "The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!" by now?

Logic like "what is one sub going to do?" seems to fail those who are obsessed by their own fears. That's a usual characteristic of RWAs, fostered by their leaders, as we know. From The Authoritarians:

Quote:
Authoritarian followers score highly on the Dangerous World scale. High RWAs are, in general, more afraid than most people are. They got a “2 for 1 Special Deal” on fear somehow.

In calm, peaceful times as well as in genuinely dangerous ones, high RWAs feel threatened.

There’s always a national crisis looming ahead. All times are troubled times that require drastic action.

That certainly describes Raptor and his cronies.

So, on with more interesting issues...

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:34 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You're both being childish for not wetting yourselves over this like Rappy.

Well, they are being childish. And my boxers are still quite dry.

And Niki...

Trojans: "What harm could bringing 1 wooden horse behind our walls do? Open the gates! "

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:30 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, they are being childish. And my boxers are still quite dry.

And Niki...

Trojans: "What harm could bringing 1 wooden horse behind our walls do? Open the gates! "

You really have to explain how we are being childish and how a single Russian sup in international water off the US coast is even close to a Trojan horse.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:48 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, they are being childish. And my boxers are still quite dry.

And Niki...

Trojans: "What harm could bringing 1 wooden horse behind our walls do? Open the gates! "

You really have to explain how we are being childish and how a single Russian sup in international water off the US coast is even close to a Trojan horse.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Yeah, I think Rappy just said (loose translation here...) "Hey, my boxers are dry but actually my bowels are letting go even now because OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"

I wonder how many subs have done this kind of thing over the years. I'll bet it's in the dozens, for both sides. At least.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:52 PM

Does anyone out there suppose that U.S. subs patrol *undetected* off the coasts of Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and other countries?

Should all of those nations be in a full-fledged panic at the prospect of our subs doing that?

If so, why? If not, why not?

Submarines are SUPPOSED TO be undetected. If rather defeats the purpose if they are detected.

This is idiotic fear-mongering, and nothing more.

The Trojan Horse analogy is an utter fail, and has no bearing on this subject at all, unless the Russian sub was taken into drydock in the U.S. without anyone knowing there were Russians aboard.

The analogy might have made more sense if it had said, "Hey, what harm can one wooden horse do way over there, 300 miles outside the walls of Troy?"

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, they are being childish. And my boxers are still quite dry.

And Niki...

Trojans: "What harm could bringing 1 wooden horse behind our walls do? Open the gates! "

You really have to explain how we are being childish and how a single Russian sup in international water off the US coast is even close to a Trojan horse.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Yeah, I think Rappy just said (loose translation here...) "Hey, my boxers are dry but actually my bowels are letting go even now because OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"

I wonder how many subs have done this kind of thing over the years. I'll bet it's in the dozens, for both sides. At least.

Not dozens. HUNDREDS, if not thousands. It was, and is, the game. You "win" by not being detected. You "lose" by being spotted, even in international waters where nothing can be done about it. A *real* win is when your sub tracks another, and you remain undetected, both by the "enemy" sub AND by their surface ships.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:18 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You really have to explain how we are being childish and how a single Russian sup in international water off the US coast is even close to a Trojan horse.

" First rule of battle, Little One: Don't ever let them know where you are " - Zoe Washburne.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:30 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
" First rule of battle, Little One: Don't ever let them know where you are " - Zoe Washburne.

Good thing we are not in battle with the Russians. Even if we were, a single sub is not going to do a lot.

So again, this is not a big deal at all.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Does anyone out there suppose that U.S. subs patrol *undetected* off the coasts of Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and other countries?

Patrol ?
Errr...
Google IVY BELLS.

And that ain't the friggin half of it.

-F

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
" First rule of battle, Little One: Don't ever let them know where you are " - Zoe Washburne.

Good thing we are not in battle with the Russians. Even if we were, a single sub is not going to do a lot.

So again, this is not a big deal at all.

Wow... you're incredibly naive.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 24, 2012 12:03 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wow... you're incredibly naive.

Instead of just throwing that out, explain why. I'm not seeing the problem here. The Russians, or anyone one else with subs, are not going to attack us. Even if they were it would not be with a single sub. All that would do is piss the US off.

So explain how I'm naive.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 24, 2012 1:25 AM

In Rappy's mind, we're still fighting the Soviet Union. The Romney campaign told him so, so of course he believes it.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, August 24, 2012 5:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I wonder how many subs have done this kind of thing over the years. I'll bet it's in the dozens, for both sides. At least.

My immediate thought on the subject, and my second was to think "Jeeezzz", which is why I pointed out what I did, rather than bother addressing the issue. I feel sorry for Raptor and his ilk who are so stuck in a world of fear they can't see beyond it. It's truly commiserable.

To quote Raptor himself: " you really do come off as a delusional idiot and a child when trying to engage in such a manner."

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Friday, August 24, 2012 5:13 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Not dozens. HUNDREDS, if not thousands. It was, and is, the game. You "win" by not being detected. You "lose" by being spotted, even in international waters where nothing can be done about it. A *real* win is when your sub tracks another, and you remain undetected, both by the "enemy" sub AND by their surface ships.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

Just hi-tech counting coup.

But oh noes, Rappy says the Russians is comin, everybody, to the bomb shelters!!!

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 24, 2012 7:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Quote:
I wonder how many subs have done this kind of thing over the years. I'll bet it's in the dozens, for both sides. At least.
My immediate thought on the subject, and my second was to think "Jeeezzz", which is why I pointed out what I did, rather than bother addressing the issue. I feel sorry for Raptor and his ilk who are so stuck in a world of fear they can't see beyond it. It's truly commiserable.

To quote Raptor himself: " you really do come off as a delusional idiot and a child when trying to engage in such a manner."

Indeed. I grew up a child of the Cold War, and a child of a "cold warrior". I grew up on foreign bases, in "hot zones" where the Next Big War was supposed to start. We didn't just have "duck-n-cover" drills like kids stateside got back then. Our air raid drills were weekly, and often involved supersonic flyovers, complete with sonic booms as F4 Phantom II fighter-bombers screamed out across the South China sea, or as SR-71 Blackbirds embarked from secret hangars with rose up out of the ground and disappeared just as quickly into the tarmac.

Some kids grew up with the fear that we'd all perish in a nuclear war; I got to grow up with the virtual certainty of it. I was teething during the Cuban Missile Crisis, in a trailer midway between Baltimore and D.C.

I've seen The Brink. We're nowhere near it. It takes far more than one sub to get me worried.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are Russian ships allowed to sail in international waters?

Do we have to track every ship, every sub, every watercraft on Earth? Seems a bit Big Brotherish. Big gubmint, even. You could even call it "statist".

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

Thank you for making the point I was going to.

It is the high seas. It doesn't belong to us. They have the right to operate there, just like we have the right to operate in the North Atlantic, even closer to Russia than they were. We're supposedly undetectable to them, and at least as much a threat. ( "But WE'RE THE GOOD GUYS," I can hear a neocon voice wail in the background. Fershure, dude.)

The real point is that same neocon voice screaming, " THIS IS ALL OBAMA'S FAULT!!!!"

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Friday, August 24, 2012 9:33 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
It is the high seas. It doesn't belong to us. They have the right to operate there, just like we have the right to operate in the North Atlantic, even closer to Russia than they were.

I think that's part of the disconnect. To folks like Rappy, EVERYTHING is our turf. He would absolutely agree we have the right to run around the North Atlantic, but no-one has any right to the seas but US.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 24, 2012 11:22 AM