New material on Martin/Zimmerman case by Niki2

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New material on Martin/Zimmerman case

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, May 31, 2013 03:29
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Friday, May 25, 2012 9:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Let's say someone gets a gun, follows someone, and shoots them. Getting a gun is legal, following them is legal, but they both indicate 'intent' after the fact of shooting.

There are different levels of intent. The question to ask is was the shooting related to the prior actions? In your example there is a big difference between buying the gun, following the person and shooting them versus buying the gun so you could follow and shoot someone.

Look up the legal distinctions between knowingly, recklessly, and negligently.

Here is what you need:

Knowingly: "I'm gonna kill Martin tonight so I taking my gun and waiting for him to walk by then I'll sneak up behind him and shoot him after which I'll injure myself to make it look like a fight." In other words malice and a plan.

Recklessly: "I'm going to do something stupid that I just know is likely, and I mean really likely, to get someone killed...like driving 125mph in a school zone, shooting my gun into a crowd but definately more then just taking a nice walk through my neighborhood behind some black fella." In other words doing something so stupid that somebody was bound to get killed and even the cops say 'what was that guy thinking'.

Negligently: "Look I can do the cowboy spin my gun around my finger thing and...oops I just shot you." (See also American Vice Presidential annecdotes).

There is also strict liability: "Speed limit is 25mph, but your honor I was only going 26mph. $500 fine!"

Your argument is that Zimmerman was acting recklessly but to prove that you have to take otherwise innocent behaivor and characterize it in a way not supported by the evidence.

The fact is the behavior in question when looking at a recklessly standard is not the following or the carrying an gun (both of which are legal and unlikely to lead to the shooting)...its the confrontation. If Zimmerman starts the fight and he's armed it forseeable that the gun could come into play. If Martin attacked Zimmerman then its on Martin, not Zimmerman (like the fella that brings a knife to a gun fight) to accept the consequences of his actions.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, May 25, 2012 12:51 PM

OONJERAH

Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts =>
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerma
n-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman
shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the
night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her
initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single
figure running.

They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State
Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on
to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree
murder.

Here are the key ways in which their stories changed . . .

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Friday, May 25, 2012 1:04 PM

OONJERAH

I guess this was posted before, but I just wanted to see where MSM was reporting
on George's (prescription) drug use, mainly because y'all are ignoring it. However,
I do find ABC's miminalization of the drugs very reassuring [sarcasm], so no good
reason to mention that they were in his blood at the time.

ABC, May 15 =>
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-i
njuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7MWi-tYt9M
. . .
"According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and
Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but
in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

"A neighbor told ABC News that the day after the shooting he saw Zimmerman as he spoke to
officers outside his home. He too recalled seeing black eyes and significant swelling -- as well
as a bandage over his nose.

"Moments after the shooting Zimmerman told eyewitnesses he shot Martin in self defense. He
later told officers his head was being pounded into the pavement and that he feared for his
life, but that it was only when Martin seemed to reach for the gun wedged in his waistband
that Zimmerman drew his weapon and fired directly into Martin's chest -- killing him." . . .

They were both reaching for the gun? This is new to me.
This woulda been a good time to mention who was calling out.
Because . . .
Trayvon is banging George's head on the pavement only stopping to reach for the gun. George
grabs the gun and fires. Trayvon didn't have time to call out, so it musta been George calling
in between blows to his head? The recording would verify it.

ETA: OK. I finally listened to the 911 calls-for-help tape. It is very indistinct, and I cannot draw
any opinion, let alone conclusion, from it.

. . .
=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Oonj, I posted about it a few posts up. I found it strange, too. I guess maybe interest has shifted away from the case, given short attention spans.

Now there's this:

Quote:
George Zimmerman, who was not initially charged by police in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, was familiar with some of the officers in the Sanford, Fla., police department, having gone on several "ride alongs" with the cops, he told the city's mayor last year.

But Zimmerman, a criminal studies major, was harsh in his criticism of the cops he had met on the Sanford force calling their on-the-job conduct "disgusting."

Zimmerman, a member of the neighborhood watch, voiced his opinion at a January 2011 city commission hearing that included then mayor-elect Jeff Triplet.

One officer "showed me his favorite hiding spots for taking naps, explained to me that he doesn't carry a long gun in his vehicle because in his words anything that requires a long gun requires a lot of paperwork and you're going to find me as far away from it," Zimmerman said.

He added the officer "took two lunch breaks and attended a going away party for one of his officers."

These rides, along with new video showing Zimmerman roaming the police department unescorted just three days after the shooting, are reviving old questions of Zimmerman's relationship with the department that decided against charging him with a crime on the night of the shooting.

When ABC News asked the Sanford Police force in mid-March whether Zimmerman had any contact or relationship with the police force, the answer on more than one occasion was no.

"We do not have specific dates Mr. Zimmerman may have ridden or with whom he rode, if in fact he ever did ride with SPD," Capt. Robert O'Connor of the Sanford Police Department said in a statement today. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-knew-sanford-police-officers
-shooting/story?id=16414349 again, MY finger points at the police department, from the changes in witness testimony, " it was also noted that some of the witnesses felt that police had "corrected" their testimony", to perhaps even LYING that he knew police and had done ride-alongs (?), to the entire handling of the case.

Again, tho', my feelings about the drugs are mixed. "In only 10% of cases" sounds like the usual side-effects thing; people react differently, and I find "hallucinations", etc., a bit much. I'm more willing to believe the ADHD is for real than the side effects of the drugs had anything to do with Zimmerman's actions.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"There are different levels of intent."

Yes, there are. And while my hypothetical doesn't capture Zimmerman, neither do yours. I think it's fair to say that an armed person who carries on the street doesn't become armed and carry on the street unless they anticipate a confrontation. Nor does that armed person follow someone unless they anticipate an armed confrontation with that person.

Zimmerman didn't get that gun to get Martin, he got that gun to get someone. He didn't carry that gun while patrolling the neighborhood to get Martin, he got that gun to patrol the neighborhood to get those people he didn't want there. He didn't follow Martin to get Martin, he followed a black kid to get that black kid.

And there's no reason to pretend that he had to have been gunning for Martin in order to prove intent.

I agree with SignyM, vigilantism describes it best.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 10:31 AM

OONJERAH

I finally figured this out last night. IF:

I am pinned to the ground; my head being slammed on the sidewalk.
All I know is fear and agony. There's a loaded gun in my belt. If I
can get it, I'd shoot my attacker without a blink of hesitation.
He would not have time to cry out -- unless we struggled over the
gun for a second or two. . . .
My "decision" to shoot instantly was based on fear-pain-adrenalin
have put the animal survival brain in charge. In my case, I'd be
glad, relieved to be alive. I'd not be calm or have reason return
for a long time. Me: Winnie the Wimp; not Rambo.

When the cops arrived, I might babble or moan, making little sense.

On the 911 tape, I heard a muffled, gutteral cry, a delay, a shot.
I can't interpret it.

=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:38 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Yes, there are. And while my hypothetical doesn't capture Zimmerman, neither do yours. I think it's fair to say that an armed person who carries on the street doesn't become armed and carry on the street unless they anticipate a confrontation. Nor does that armed person follow someone unless they anticipate an armed confrontation with that person.

Zimmerman didn't get that gun to get Martin, he got that gun to get someone..

I carry every day. I do it for self defense, by your definition if I'm attacked and forced to defend myself then I've committed murder because it was my intention all along to protect myself.

I think you are taking otherwise innocent behavior that you simply don't approve of and seeking to make it criminal because of the unfortunate outcome then using the legal behavior to justify harsher punishment for that outcome.

By your definition a doctor commits murder if their patient dies on the operating table, regardless of the cause of death but simply because that person became a doctor and therefor intended to kill.

Kid runs out in front of your car traveling in strict compliance with traffic laws, murder because they intentionally got in the car and drove down the street.

It's an absurd proposition. By your reasoning I just bought a shotgun for home defense so I've engaged in a massive criminal conspiracy to murder the guy breaking into my home intent on murdering my family. After all killing the intruder was always my intention.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am forced to agree with Hero on this particular, narrow point. Owning or carrying a weapon does not imply someone is planning to use it in a criminal fashion. I own and have carried weapons and hoped that it would never be necessary to use them on a human being.

Where I think you might say the perpetrator in this case was in the wrong is that they pursued and confronted a person unnecessarily. This is the questionable behavior, not the carrying of a weapon.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:34 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I carry every day. I do it for self defense ..."

Do you then patrol an area with said gun? Follow a stranger while patrolling with said gun in order to seek out confrontation?

You have to look at the entire set of circumstances instead of picking and choosing the ones you approve of.

And as I pointed out earlier, while it's all legal, it can all be used after the fact to deduce intent. And as a COMPLETE picture, it looks like vigilantism.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:42 PM

OONJERAH

What the evidence in Trayvon Martin case doesn't show =>
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/20/3619482/what-the-evidence-in-tray
von-martin.html

[ I dunno if this article is pro-Zimmerman or anti-prosecution. Unbiased, perhaps?
A little over halfway down, I found something I didn't know. I include the first
two remarks as they slightly differ from my recall. ]

T's Girlfriend: "He said the guy was getting real close to him. Next thing I hear,
'Why are you following me for?' And I hear this man: 'What are you doing around
here?'" the girl told prosecutors.

The girl said she could then hear somebody "bump" Martin before hearing Martin
say: "Get off, get off." Then the phone went dead. . . .

[And] Other evidence released Thursday appeared to cast doubt on assertions in
the arrest affidavit prepared by investigators and prosecutors.

The arrest report notes that Martin's mother identified her son as the voice heard
crying for help in the background of 911 calls. But Martin's father reviewed the
recordings with police and said the voice was not his son's, the new records show.
An FBI analysis of the recordings could not identify who was crying for help.

=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Monday, June 4, 2012 11:51 AM

OONJERAH

Attorney: George Zimmerman was confused, fearful =>
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5juR97ZENdKD6xJkHFceM
UQrZUPcA?docId=48d3cd2318b9406ebf3901d99e3c5b7a

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — The former neighborhood watch leader charged with fatally
shooting Trayvon Martin was confused and fearful when he and his wife misled
court officials about their finances during an April bond hearing that allowed him
to be released from jail, his attorney said Monday.

Attorney Mark O'Mara wrote on a website run by George Zimmerman's legal team
that he will ask for another bond hearing. A day earlier, Zimmerman returned to jail
because his $150,000 bond was revoked by a Florida judge after prosecutors claimed
Zimmerman and his wife, Shellie, deceived the court during the bond hearing.

At the hearing, Shellie Zimmerman testified . . .

====================================================

Details Regarding the Request for a Second Bond Hearing for George Zimmerman =>
http://gzlegalcase.com/

Zimmerman's defense team will file a motion today for a second bond hearing. While
Mr. Zimmerman acknowledges that he allowed his financial situation to be misstated
in court, the defense will emphasize that in all other regards, Mr. Zimmerman has
been forthright and cooperative. He gave several voluntary statements to the police,
re-enacted the events for them, gave voice exemplars for comparison and stayed in
ongoing contact with the Department of Law Enforcement during his initial stage of
being in hiding. He has twice surrendered himself to law enforcement when asked to
do so, and this should demonstrate that Mr. Zimmerman is not a flight risk. He has
also complied with all conditions of his release, including curfew, keeping in touch
with his supervising officers, and maintaining his GPS monitoring, without violation.

The audio recordings of Mr. Zimmerman's phone conversations while in jail make it
clear that Mr. Zimmerman knew a significant sum had been raised by his original
fundraising website. We feel the failure to disclose these funds was caused by fear,
mistrust, and confusion. The gravity of this mistake has been distinctly illustrated,
and Mr. Zimmerman understands that this mistake has undermined his credibility,
which he will have to work to repair. . . .
======================

Why Social Media for George Zimmerman?

Find out why we have created an Internet presence for the defense of George Zimmerman . . .

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:37 AM

STORYMARK

New info - Police have announced that none of Martin's DNA was found on Zimmerman's gun. Had Martin grabbed it, as claimed, there would almost certainly be some. And if Zimmerman had shot Martin while Martin was on top of him, as claimed, there would be blood. Looking more and more like he shot from a distance, which is completely contradictory to his story.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:08 AM

BYTEMITE

Huh. I never thought we'd have enough information to get past the speculation and hearsay of this case, but that's actually pretty clever in terms of piecing an overall story together.

Maybe the prosecutor will be able to get second degree murder after all. Must have gone after that charge because they had that ace up their sleeve. They still can't really prove malice-aforethought, but if Martin was shot from a distance, this might indicate Martin was leaving after whatever altercation they might have had, and self-defense might not hold up for Zimmerman.

Plus you don't necessarily need malice-aforethought or premeditation for second degree murder. Zimmerman's apparent recklessness leading up to the confrontation is probably enough, though in between Martin attacking him and Zimmerman shooting Martin some intent may have formed.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Again, I stand by my initial assessment of the matter.

-F

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gawd, who's bringing these old threads forward? ;o) Yeah, I get it, new info...and of course we knew we wouldn't find out anything further until a looong time away, so here is some. I agree, gives credence to Martin's not having done what Zimmerman said he did. Will be interesting to see where it goes...again, a looong time from now!

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:09 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Gawd, who's bringing these old threads forward? ;o)

I prefer to resume threads when new info is available, rather than create new ones.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/28/18556018-judge-denies-delay
-bars-evidence-in-george-zimmerman-trial-for-now?lite

Judge denies delay, bars evidence in George Zimmerman trial — for now

A Florida judge ruled Tuesday that George Zimmerman’s defense team cannot mention Trayvon Martin’s suspension from school, prior marijuana use, text messages or past fighting during opening statements at next month’s trial.

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Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:43 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Good, since that other stuff is irrelevant, because Zimmerman wouldn't have known about any of it. And it's all circumstantial; all it proves is that Martin went to public school.

Agrees with Storymark on keeping related topic material to fewer threads.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Friday, May 31, 2013 3:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I was kind of hoping this one wouldn't come back; it's been in the news for a while now and so far everyone passed on it, including me, for the reasons Rahl stated. It's an obvious effort to prejudice the jury, some of which are already prejudiced by the coverage, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what happened that night or what Zimmermann knew.

I expected it to come back from someone on the right in order to say "See? He was a punk, Zimmerman was right!", and away we'd go again. I'll wait to see if one of them pops in to try that (which would lead to useless discussion and snarking from both sides). The simple fact is it's all irrelevant, "because Zimmerman wouldn't have known about any of it".

We'll see...

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