These Guys... by Kwicko

Amazingly succinct - and I bet it didn't take some market research and advertising agency no thirty million bucks to crank out neither.

The truth is like that.

-F

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:12 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Nice idea.

Now how about one explaining how this guy...

has this guy...

fly this guy...

around to blow up the homes of these guys.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:27 AM

Once again, this is why I hate all of them.

All of them. Obama, Bush 1 and 2, Clinton, their congress stooges, the warhawks with their bad intel and gung ho attitude, the weapons dealers who supply them, and their contractors who make obscene profits on a government sweetheart deal at the expense of lives. ALL OF THEM. Buncha VULTURES.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Most excellent, Mike. I've heard so much about how Dubya's "guys" are now in the Romney campaign, it sickens me. But it won't change anyone's vote, because "dose guys" voting think this is just fine...you know that!

Byte, we know how much you hate everyone having anything to do with government. Would be nice if you'd suggest any alternatives, but you're welcome to just keep venting on the matter. Venting is good.

However, if you want to hate all those you mentioned, you'll have to keep going backwards in time and spread that hate to virtually all Presidents and administrations, 'cuz this is how we roll and always have.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:56 AM

Quote:
However, if you want to hate all those you mentioned, you'll have to keep going backwards in time and spread that hate to virtually all Presidents and administrations, 'cuz this is how we roll and always have.

You wanted me to make that post 1000 words long? I figured you all got the gist of it without me having to go through every administration and name all the asswipes.

And I HAVE suggested alternatives, just not recently because it attracts unnecessary attention. What will happen in the future, what form the future government takes depends on the revolutionaries driving for that change. On this board, we are all allies, as both anti-government and anti-fascism serves my agenda. If both are occurring simultaneously, even better.

There may be societies someday which play so close to home that corruption becomes particularly offensive, and in those societies maybe rule by common agreement and fair law and protective regulation can actually exist. For now, though, it's a pipe dream.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:48 AM

Go for it, Geeze - Mitt The Shitt aside, Obama does need his chops busted on that one.
Just cause one "side" is guanopsychotic - doesn't mean the other is without flaw.

-F

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:12 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

And let's not forget when this guy...

told these guys...

he was going to get these guys...

out of this place...

but so far, only these guys...

have gotten out.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
but so far, only these guys...

have gotten out.

So is that a "fact" or a "claim"? Do you want to "change your mind", or are you comfortable "just making shit up"?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:28 AM

It appears to be a joke. We have entered a new and frightening direction for the board.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:43 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Geezer, I think you missed the point of the vid. It wasn't to trash Bush (primarily), but to show that the same people who were in Bush's administration are part of Romney's team. So you were a little bit hasty getting into 'Trash Bush? Trash Obama!' mode.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It appears to be a joke. We have entered a new and frightening direction for the board.

It also appears to be untrue. We all know how much Geezer hates when other people say things that aren't true.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Geezer, I think you missed the point of the vid. It wasn't to trash Bush (primarily), but to show that the same people who were in Bush's administration are part of Romney's team. So you were a little bit hasty getting into 'Trash Bush? Trash Obama!' mode.

It's not personal. It's just war.

And by all means, if Geezer wants to go out and actually make that "These Guys" video about Obama, please do. I'll be happy to share it here and through my facebook account. People absolutely should be reminded that Gitmo still exists, still houses people charged with no crime, given no trial, and who have had no evidence given against them.

If not for the purpose of human rights or civil rights, then at least for purely economic reasons; it costs some $27,000/yr to house a federal prisoner, while it costs upwards of $800,000/yr to house a Gitmo detainee.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:51 AM

Humour and irony are often founded on a solid basis of dishonesty. I don't have much problem with what Geezer posted: it isn't true, but it's valid.

(Arguably it's true enough for my purposes that the whole Gitmo issue kinda pisses me off as opposed to being funny, but to each their own)

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:02 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Geezer, I think you missed the point of the vid. It wasn't to trash Bush (primarily), but to show that the same people who were in Bush's administration are part of Romney's team. So you were a little bit hasty getting into 'Trash Bush? Trash Obama!' mode.

Thing is, it's easy to make such videos about pretty much any politician or party. Just like it's easy to take photos and stick partisan captions on them. Just like it was easy for me to take a couple of minutes to make my little slide shows.

However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do, based exclusively on such things, are you really doing due diligence as a voter?

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:32 AM

Geezer, that was awesome, by all means, make a video, and post it as a response to the original video. (Mike, nice video)

I'm with Frem and Byte, all those guys got some answering to do for all the hits they put on all them guys. I suspect if you follow it closely enough you'll find both these guys and those guys work for these other guys.

Don't vote for politicians, it only encourages the bastards.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:14 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Thing is, it's easy to make such videos about pretty much any politician or party. Just like it's easy to take photos and stick partisan captions on them.

Sure, but this one was making a specific point, that you don't seem to have acknowledged - a Romney administration would be similar in make-up to the Bush administration. Simply replying with a photo slideshow making the point 'Obama sucks!' is a non-sequitur.

Quote:
However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do, based exclusively on such things, are you really doing due diligence as a voter?

Well, aside from the fact that Mike never said that, not everyone is interested in politics and is going to make a fully-informed choice. And I can think of worse single things to vote for than NOT a return to the Bush administration.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:27 AM

Not to nitpick, but, did I miss something? Did the Bush admin ever leave? I'm not sure what a "return" would look like. I can't think of one thing about it that ended because the cowboy went back to the ranch and his role was played by some cityslicker. I'm pretty sure it's still running at 100%

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:05 AM

Then you are blinded by your own nihilism.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do,

Which he did exactly no-where. Just another in a stream of lies from our oldest sack of go-se.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:10 AM

The board has definitely become more left-weighted than the norm.

It's illogical to assume that ideas held by half the population are right and the those held by the other half are wrong, as brains are more or less evenly distributed.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:24 AM

Perhaps.

But a lie is a lie. And those around here on the right spew them pretty consistently.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do,

Which he did exactly no-where. Just another in a stream of lies from our oldest sack of go-se.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Well worth a watch. You'll laugh. You'll think. You'll vote.

Story, you may have to turn in your "Honorary Troll King" badge if you don't get your head out of your assumptions a bit more.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Then you are blinded by your own nihilism.

Cynicism, not nihilism, Storymark. Believing that both parties of the American political system are hopelessly corrupt is not at all the same as believing that the outcome, impacts, or morality of our actions and lives are completely insignificant.

For example, I am a classic cynic.

"Cynicism, in its original form, refers to the beliefs of an ancient school of Greek philosophers known as the Cynics. Their philosophy was that the purpose of life was to live a life of Virtue in agreement with Nature. This meant rejecting all conventional desires for wealth, power, sex, and fame, and by living a simple life free from all possessions. They believed that the world belonged equally to everyone, and that suffering was caused by false judgments of what was valuable and by the worthless customs and conventions which surrounded society."

The word comes from the greek word kynikos, meaning "dog-like," or living like dogs.

I also partially fit the modern understanding of the term, as I can be negative, paranoid, and disagreeable. However, I actually have a lot of optimism for human decency and value. ...Just not in regards to politics or this society.

You're probably looking for more the modern understanding for DT, Frem, and me, but I still insist on cynicism over nihilism for the sake of accuracy, if you don't mind.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:27 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Then you are blinded by your own nihilism.

Cynicism, not nihilism, Storymark. Believing that both parties of the American political system are hopelessly corrupt is not at all the same as believing that the outcome, impacts, or morality of our actions and lives are completely insignificant.

For example, I am a classic cynic, and I suspect that both Frem and DT are as well.

The three of you maybe classical cynics as well, but you are all modern cynics. I think that Story is right. You yourself said that you see the system as hoplessly corrupt. If that is the case what we do is pretty much insignificant.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do,

Which he did exactly no-where. Just another in a stream of lies from our oldest sack of go-se.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Well worth a watch. You'll laugh. You'll think. You'll vote.

Story, you may have to turn in your "Honorary Troll King" badge if you don't get your head out of your assumptions a bit more.

Aw, that's cute, distort Kwick's statement, claim it says something it doesnt - then accuse me of assumptions.

Fuck off, Geezer. You're as scummy as the Raptard.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:40 AM

Quote:
You yourself said that you see the system as hoplessly corrupt. If that is the case what we do is pretty much insignificant.

No. It is absolutely not insignificant. Our LIVES are not synonymous with OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE.

(As a side note, I edited out DT and Frem being classic cynics because looking at that description there are things they'd probably disagree with. However, it depends on the interpretation)

In any case, I would STRONGLY disagree with being called a nihilist, as that implies that I'm amoral. As someone who cares deeply about morality and altruism, it could be construed as an insult.

I am a cynic, and that is also probably the term Storymark was looking for.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:59 AM

Yeah, I am far too hedonistic to qualify as classic-cynic, but I do not see actions as insignificant, there's a difference between pointing out that something is tactically stupid and thus ineffective or counterproductive, versus believing that actions taken in that cause would be ineffective regardless of tactics.

HKCav, I think, has a better understanding of where I come from in regards to a moral or cynicism-idealism perspective, mostly cause I come at things on a wider scale and longterm strategy - but frankly, these bastards, the sociopaths intent on savaging all that is human within us in order to maintain a disastrous and malevolent status quo that benefits the few at the expense of the many - they are ALREADY DOOMED, it's just my impatience which spurs me into trying to turn the wheels of history faster, cause history shows quite plainly what eventually HAPPENS to these guys, and it ain't pretty.
That and a side order of a strong desire to limit the collateral damage of that INEVITABLE fallout, by pushing things up earlier and for a clean break instead of just buying time, cause draggin it out never goes well either.

The irony is of course, that in the end them bastards will hand us the very tools, the very things, which will in the end be used to crush them, it's the nature of the thing, the endless cycle of retrenchment and enlightenment, and as predictable as day following dawn.

Quote:
“There are two great powers, and they’ve been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.”
Philip Pullman - The Subtle Knife

-Frem

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:04 AM

Well said.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

However, if you determine your vote, as Mike suggests you do,

Which he did exactly no-where. Just another in a stream of lies from our oldest sack of go-se.

It's pretty funny, coming as it does from the one person here who constantly bitches and whines about people making stuff up and claiming that that's the way he thinks.

I posted a video. I suggested you'll laugh, you'll think, you'll vote. Nowhere was it stated or suggested that this was the one thing you'd see that would change your mind or convince you to vote a certain way. I can prove it, too; Byte as much as says she won't vote no matter what, so clearly such simple images have no sway at all. The suggestion that they could, or that I'm suggesting they do, is ludicrous on its face.

But that's what Geezer is here for, to be ludicrous. And to tell people what they think and what they mean, of course.

And he never did apologize for lying about his own pictures, did he? How can we ever believe you about anything, Geezer, if you're willing to claim that two actors are the only people ever to have gotten out of Gitmo?

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, excellently said. And the quote is so right on...sadly...

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
You yourself said that you see the system as hoplessly corrupt. If that is the case what we do is pretty much insignificant.

No. It is absolutely not insignificant. Our LIVES are not synonymous with OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE.

(As a side note, I edited out DT and Frem being classic cynics because looking at that description there are things they'd probably disagree with. However, it depends on the interpretation)

In any case, I would STRONGLY disagree with being called a nihilist, as that implies that I'm amoral. As someone who cares deeply about morality and altruism, it could be construed as an insult.

I am a cynic, and that is also probably the term Storymark was looking for.

Does nihilism automatically lead to amorality? That sounds a lot like the argument that only religion can give one ethics or morals.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:34 AM

Depends on the specific school of nihilism, but:

Quote:
Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological or metaphysical/ontological forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist.

You can see how if someone thinks life has no inherent meaning, it can in some ways lead to a belief that morality does not matter - if life doesn't matter then it doesn't matter if you cause harm or destruction or do something others consider immoral. There actually is a sort of "positive nihilism" out there or "anti-nihilism": i.e. life doesn't matter so might as well be good to people and have fun, but storymark and nick have been using the former understanding.

Quote:
Nietzsche characterized nihilism as emptying the world and especially human existence of meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. This observation stems in part from Nietzsche's perspectivism, or his notion that "knowledge" is always by someone of some thing: it is always bound by perspective, and it is never mere fact. Rather, there are interpretations through which we understand the world and give it meaning. Interpreting is something we can not go without; in fact, it is something we need.

One way of interpreting the world is through morality, as one of the fundamental ways in which people make sense of the world, especially in regard to their own thoughts and actions. Nietzsche distinguishes a morality that is strong or healthy, meaning that the person in question is aware that he constructs it himself, from weak morality, where the interpretation is projected on to something external. Regardless of its strength, morality presents us with meaning, whether this is created or 'implanted,' which helps us get through life. This is exactly why Nietzsche states that nihilism as "absolute valuelessness" or "nothing has meaning" is dangerous, or even "the danger of dangers": it is through valuation that people survive and endure the danger, pain and hardships they face in life. The complete destruction of all meaning and all values would lead to an existence of apathy and stillness, where positive actions, affirmative actions, would be replaced by a state of reaction and destruction.

Now, I very much think that Frem, DT, CTS, and I all have values and hold that some things are meaningful and righteous, don't you? Certainly we're not amoral or apathetic, I hope even nick and storymark will grant us that much.

In any case, "cynicism" is still the more accurate term to describe the arguments made in this thread.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 9:06 AM

Thanks, Byte, for the clarification.

Yes, clearly you, Frem, DT, CTS, and others have values (and VALUE!), ethics, and morals.

I tend towards more of a Buddhist take on the universe: Nothing you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:33 AM

MAL4PREZ

I haven't read the thread yet, just have to respond about the OP....

I didn't laugh.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, Mal4, I didn't find it anything to laugh about, either.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:28 AM

Quote:
Story:

Fuck off, Geezer. You're as scummy as the Raptard.

That's just uncalled for in so many ways.

In other news, No one provided any evidence that the policies of the Bush administration had ended.

And here I was waiting on Peter Noone to do that ;)

This board has become sadly polarized. I see nothing wrong with what Geezer said, or what Mike posted before that, I think they're both pretty accurate. I will vote, but not for either of those networks of guys.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Quote:
Story:

Fuck off, Geezer. You're as scummy as the Raptard.

That's just uncalled for in so many ways.

You havn't been around.

And I really care not one whit if you approve. He lies pathologically - he deserves nothing better.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 2:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I tend towards more of a Buddhist take on the universe: Nothing you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it.

In regards to that, Nihilism, etc...

Quote:
There can't possibly be any meaning in this world. But isn't that wonderful in its own right? Because if there isn't any, we can find our own.
-Filicia Heidemann, Sound of the Sky

Of course, once found, we use our will to then impose it upon an uncaring universe, to CREATE meaning, and meaningful things - while some use their will to destroy.
I stand against those, I always have.

-Frem

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:00 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Take the word 'exclusively' out of Geezer's statement and it's reasonable, in my view. He over-reached, trying to make a point; I don't know that I would say that he lied.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:14 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Sep 13

Federal Judge Rules NDAA’s Indefinite Detention Unconstitutional and Issues Permanent Injunction Against It

Sep 19

Appeals Court Judge Reinstates Indefinite Detention — for Now

So, this is the game that I think is being played - all those things that Dumbya did that we hated that Obama's still doing? ---

Well, the republicans ain't gonna do shit about them. And Obama ain't gonna do shit about them. So WE need to do shit about them through organizations like the ACLU. As far as Obama is concerned, they're constitutional and he'll do them until we prove him wrong. And in the meantime, he gets to do what he wants to do until we make him stop.

ETA: BTW, the biggest difference between Dumbya and Obama is that Dumbya tried to get the country behind torture, indefinite detention, wars of choice, spying on Americans and the like through his cheerleaders in the republican party and on FOX news. Obama isn't promoting, defending, cheerleading, justifying, excusing, or rationalizing. He's just taking advantage of the door the republicans left wide open for as long as it can be kept open.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I tend towards more of a Buddhist take on the universe: Nothing you do is very important, but it is very important that you do it.

In regards to that, Nihilism, etc...
Quote:
There can't possibly be any meaning in this world. But isn't that wonderful in its own right? Because if there isn't any, we can find our own.
-Filicia Heidemann, Sound of the Sky

Of course, once found, we use our will to then impose it upon an uncaring universe, to CREATE meaning, and meaningful things - while some use their will to destroy.
I stand against those, I always have.

-Frem

Honestly, I expect to fail, early and rather drastically. People might wonder why I continue. But, there will be others like me, more created as the stresses and tensions of the situation demands. I'm insignificant, but the cause and the other people aren't.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:43 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I tend to be wary of 'greater good' arguments myself, like the one you seem to be making Byte.

It's OK if people starve to death b/c eventually capitalism will lead humanity to the greater good of more goods.
It's OK if we bomb children b/c eventually we will lead the country politically to the greater good.
It's OK if we burn witches at the stake b/c eventually we will purify our group and find a greater good.

All sorts of barbarism finds shelter under 'greater good' arguments that have to hide their lack of logic behind a belief. My position is that if you need people to have BELIEF in a greater good and can't show it to them directly then you are dealing in some sort of deceit.

ETA: here are some examples of NON greater-good precepts, that DON'T require belief to see how following the precept will lead to the result -

If we treat each other better, the world will be a nicer place.
If we don't pollute as much, we'll have a cleaner world.
If we don't waste our resources now, we'll have more later.

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Honestly, I expect to fail, early and rather drastically. People might wonder why I continue. But, there will be others like me, more created as the stresses and tensions of the situation demands. I'm insignificant, but the cause and the other people aren't.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsLongAsThereIsOneMan
Which is pretty much true - as long as there is even ONE who will not bow down, they haven't "won" a damn thing.

Loved that scene in The Avengers by the way, and interestingly a friend gave me a Mockingjay pin recently, which is a nice slap in the face to any powers-that-be, a reminder that it never ever goes all their way.

Oh, and Kiki - much as we disagree on the finer points, THAT is a philosophy I do subscribe to.
I always suspect any measure offered under the guise of greater-good, but ones own conduct though, treat people decently, avoid waste and excess, don't trash your living space, those are simple things anyone can do, that as you say don't require mental contortions and ridiculous justifications...

Cause if you somehow feel you HAVE to justify it - well, maybe ya shouldn't oughta DONE it in the first place.
And if ya did, have the decency to own it.

Simple, really - and yet everyone seems to wanna make it so complicated.

-Frem

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Friday, September 21, 2012 5:45 AM

1kiki, what are you talking about?

Did I say I ever expected anyone to follow me into my cynicism and my self-imposed austerity?

Do I look on Frem and DT with contempt for not being so self-punishing?

Oh! You were trying to turn my own words on me. nice one.

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Saturday, September 22, 2012 2:45 AM

1kiki,

That was a most excellent slaying of Obama. We should vote third party, make a statment. I feel at this point voting for either major party is sending the message "I'm a sheeple." Time to say something else.

But Obama does have a cheerleading trick: I've noticed that these policy on a string things have the effect that 2500 news stories carry the line "Obama appointee strikes down X law of tyranny" and then one or two sources carry the "and reverses it a couple days later." He's done this a lot. He did it when he first came in on stem cell research and got a whole bunch of sheeple to think he was a hero of science. It was four days after he lifted the ban that he signed the ban back into law. So, it's not that one is better than the other, it's that they each have their own bag of tricks.

ETA:

I agree even more on the greater good, even if I don't see how it relates to what Byte said. I'm sure you remember that the communists used this argument far more than the capitalists, and the NWO uses it all the time: the greater good. The first time I recall was in the Ukraine in the 1930s, centralized food distribution for the greater good, and many times since, we've discussed it here as its been happening in africa.

But yes, all "wars for the greater good" but even pure charity for the greater good has been very suspect, spreading plagues in the name of curing diseases, and just generally making decisions for other people.

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Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:45 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I'm sure you remember that the communists used this argument far more than the capitalists ..."

Well, not really. Just b/c we get fed the bullshit early and often so it seems normal doesn't mean capitalists don't sling it like so much cheap gruel. We are taught to look on the homeless as blameworthy (their fault!), the poor as blameworthy (lazy moochers), the poor in other countries as blameworthy (lazy, corrupt, cowardly). In other words, we are taught to write off all those for whom capitalism doesn't work. B/c capitalism CAN'T be wrong, it has to be them. All of them.

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Sunday, September 23, 2012 5:52 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Depends on the specific school of nihilism

"None of it means a damn thing."

Who said that?

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Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:16 PM

What do you mean we, 1kiki? I was raised a communist, and I was homeschooled. Not sure where I would have gotten that line from. I have my own soviety flag. Still. I know a lot of other communists, russians, chinese, much of my family is chinese but you knew that. No one was brainwashed into our dislike of communism or awareness of its evils. We thought about it, that's all. if you defend a system in whose name so much evil was done, it's hard for me to see where you're separate from the capitalists you rail against.

To me, communism and capitalism are like democrats and republicans. They have managed to create a false debate in the narrow space betwixt the two of them that most people remain trapped in the middle or bitterly clinging to one side, and relatively few can see that from an outside distance both systems are clearly wrong.

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Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:12 PM