REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Some truths

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, September 24, 2012 07:26
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Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A few TRUTHS about that 47% Romney so easily disdains:
Quote:

Americans are not a nation of moochers and helpless dependents. Those who are not paying federal income tax would gladly do so, because it would mean they have a decent-paying job.

GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney is right that 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax. But he is wrong to suggest almost half of Americans pay no tax at all and feel entitled to live off government handouts.

It's true that some Americans don't pay federal income tax. But virtually all Americans pay some form of tax, whether it's sales, payroll, state income, or property tax.

Over 60% of those who don't pay income tax are working; they pay payroll tax, which goes to support Social Security and Medicare. Another 22% of those who don't pay income tax are the elderly; most of them don't work.

In fact, only about 8% of Americans pay neither federal income tax nor payroll tax, because they are unemployed, are students, or are disabled.

What is missing from all this talk about tax is the fact that although the rich pay higher taxes than the poor, middle-class people actually pay a higher percentage of their income in total taxes. True, federal income tax rates are progressive, with rates going to 35% for the top earners. But deductions and special treatment of capital gains reduce actual tax rates for the top earners. So what we end up with is upper-middle-class taxpayers paying the highest actual percentage of their income, over 31%, according to a 2010 study by the group Citizens for Tax Justice.

How did our tax system get so flat?

The payroll tax for Social Security is 12.4% (split between employer and employee). It's highly regressive, because only the first $110,100 of income is taxed. CEOs earning over $35 million per year have paid their entire annual Social Security tax bill before the end of their workday on January 2, while regular workers see this tax deducted from every check throughout the year.

Billionaire Warren Buffett points out that he pays a tax rate of only 17.8%, compared with his secretary's rate of 35.8%. Why? Because payroll taxes are capped and he gets a lower rate on his capital gains.

President Obama pushed to pass the "Buffett Rule" to help reduce this disparity, but Romney's vice-presidential running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan, opposed the rule, calling support for it "class warfare." As the Republicans use the term "class warfare," they also bring forth, pointedly, details on the wide gap in income and wealth distribution in our country.

Digging deeper into why 47% don't pay federal income tax, what we find are many former taxpayers: Twenty-two percent are the elderly, living mostly on Social Security, a benefit they got by working and paying payroll taxes. Others are unemployed or are paid close to the minimum wage, so they don't have enough income to file any taxes.

What about Romney's claim that these people believe they have a right to government assistance? Our research shows that over 50% of older people looking for work (but who are too young to collect Social Security) do not receive unemployment insurance or any other government assistance. They are living close to the poverty line with no help other than family.

Far fewer poor Americans get government assistance for low incomes. For the last 30 years, less than 4% of the U.S. population has received a full year's worth of payments, like food stamps, which are based on level of income.

Romney can choose whom he cares about, but he can't be allowed to choose his own facts and distort reality in service of divisive politics. Focusing exclusively on federal income taxes hides the fact that most Americans pay plenty of other taxes.

Finally, Romney says that the 47% can't be convinced to take "personal responsibility." Tell that to the single mother working the night shift to put her kids through school, or the 78-year-old widow living on Social Security, or the handicapped Iraqi war veteran who relies on government health care for his service to his country. Along with millions of working Americans, they are paragons of personal responsibility, not Romney's caricature of self-pitying victims seeking to live off government benefits. http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/opinion/ghilarducci-mcgahey-romney/index
.html?hpt=hp_t2


Hear, hear. And THAT is the reality of it, not the spoiled 1% thinking they're the only "working" and "responsible" people. The fact is that many of them don't actually work or produce anything, they use their money to make more money...AND the government gives them enough loopholes, etc., to ensure that they don't pay nearly what the REAL working people do!

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Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The intelligent among us already know that Romney was talking out of his ass when he said what he did in that video. But just in case any righties here want to disclaim it, Let's look at what a couple of fact checkers say:

PolitiFact:
Quote:

He said the "48, 49 percent" that supports President Barack Obama are "people who pay no income tax." Romney was correct that a similar percentage of people pay no federal income tax, such as the elderly and the poor. We rated that part of his claim

But Obama is expected to win millions of votes from people who do pay federal income taxes, and Romney is expected to win millions of votes from people who do not pay federal income taxes. We rated that part of Romney’s claim

Romney also presented a series of arguments he said he would use to persuade independent voters they would be better off under a new president, for example, that "50 percent of kids coming out of school can't get a job."It’s a stat he likes to repeat, but this time he left off an important piece. That "50 percent" actually includes students out of college who haven’t found a job and those who got a job that doesn’t require a college degree. We rated his claim

We also rated another familiar Romney claim, that President Obama promised "he'd keep unemployment below 8 percent" if the stimulus passed.Obama didn’t say that. Rather, his Council of Economic Advisers predicted that the stimulus would hold it to that level. Their report included heavy disclaimers that the projections had "significant margins of error" and a high degree of uncertainty due to a recession that is "unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity." It wasn’t a promise or guarantee. We rated the statement http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/sep/18/fact-check
ing-mitt-romneys-private-fundraiser-rema/
]
FactCheck.org:
Quote:

Romney is a bit out of date with his claim that 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income tax. That was true in 2009, but the number is lower now, and falling as the economy improves and more people are working and getting paychecks.

Figures come from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, and its most recent analysis in July 2011 put the figure for that year at 46.4 percent. That comes to about 76 million individuals or families who paid no federal income taxes in 2011. TPC projected that the percentage would fall to 46 percent this year, and to 44 percent in 2013, under current tax policies.

Whether those who pay no federal income tax are people who “believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it” is a matter of opinion. But Romney is wrong to say that all of those in that 47 percent are “dependent upon government.”

Let’s take a closer look at the 46.4 percenters.

According to the Tax Policy Center, about half of those who owe no federal income tax are people whose incomes are so low that when standard income tax provisions — personal exemptions for taxpayers and dependents and the standard deduction — are factored in, that simply leaves no income to be taxed. Those are people who earned less than about $27,000.

But that doesn’t mean those folks paid no taxes at all. Many of them paid payroll taxes, those taxes taken out of a paycheck by an employer to fund programs such as Social Security and Medicare. They also pay federal excise taxes, such as those on gasoline, and they may also pay state and local income taxes or property taxes.

So that’s half of Romney’s 46.4 percenters. The rest pay no federal income tax due to tax benefits and credits. Here’s the rest of the breakdown:

¦ 22 percent receive senior tax benefits — the extra standard deduction for seniors, the exclusion of a portion of Social Security benefits, and the credit for seniors. Most of them are older people on Social Security whose adjusted gross income is less than $25,000.

¦ 15.2 percent receive tax credits for children and the working poor. That includes the child tax credit and the earned income tax credit. The child tax credit was enacted under Democratic President Bill Clinton, but it doubled under Republican President George W. Bush. The earned income tax credit was enacted under Republican President Gerald Ford, and was expanded under presidents of both parties. Republican President Ronald Reagan once praised it as “one of the best antipoverty programs this country’s ever seen.” As a result of various tax expenditures, about two thirds of households with children making between $40,000 and $50,000 owed no federal income taxes.

¦ The rest ended up owing no federal income tax due to various tax expenditures such as education credits, itemized deductions or reduced rates on capital gains and dividends. Most of this group are in the middle to upper income brackets. In fact, the TPC estimates there are about 7,000 families and individuals who earn $1 million a year or more and still pay no federal income tax.

So when Romney says all of those in the 46 percent are “dependent on government,” that’s not accurate. Of the estimated 76 million who paid no federal income tax in 2011, 61 percent earned anywhere between $10,000 and $50,000.

The TPC report was a one-year snapshot in a particularly difficult economic year. The number of people who owed no federal income tax was unusually high in 2011, which was still a recession year. Some of the temporary tax credits enacted by Obama in reaction to the economic crisis will soon go away, and the numbers should drop in coming years.

It’s safe to say that most of the 46.4 percent referred to by Romney are in the lower income brackets. According to the most recent Gallup polls of registered voters, 37 percent of those making less than $36,000 a year indicate they plan to vote for Romney. Moreover, as we noted earlier, a sizable chunk of 46.4 percenters are retirees, and among those 65 and older, Romney leads Obama by nine points, 52 percent to 43 percent. According to a Rasmussen Reports poll of likely voters between Sept. 10 and 16, 40 percent of those making less than $20,000 said they plan to vote for Romney; 50 percent of those making between $20,000 and $40,000 said they supported Romney. The Pew Research Center similarly found in its latest poll that 32 percent of those making less than $30,000 and 42 percent of those making between $30,000 and $50,000 support Romney — as do a plurality of seniors.

A map put out by the Tax Foundation of the 10 states with the highest and lowest percentage of filers with no federal tax liability shows that the states with the highest percentage of non-filers are, by-and-large, states that typically vote Republican, while the 10 states with the lowest percentage of non-filers tend to be Democratic-leaning.

That’s not a precise measure of the voting habits of those who don’t pay federal income taxes, but it suggests Romney is way off when he assumes all of the 46.4 percenters vote Democratic. http://factcheck.org/2012/09/dependency-and-romneys-47-percenters/


Just sayin'...


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Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:00 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Just sayin'...


Over and over and over again...

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Friday, September 21, 2012 2:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And why do 47% of Americans pay no Federal income tax?

The BUSH tax cuts.

So in this case, it is all Bush's fault.

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Friday, September 21, 2012 2:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



LIES! Bush tax cuts are only for the top 1% ! Millionaires and Billionaires !




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 21, 2012 3:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Talk about black/ white thinkers who can't see or argue anything but extremes. You all are extremely stupid.

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Talk about black/ white thinkers who can't see or argue anything but extremes. You all are extremely stupid.



That's right Homer.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:07 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Talk about black/ white thinkers who can't see or argue anything but extremes. You all are extremely stupid.



Pretty funny, Kiki. A self-referential joke.

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, I can't use the word EXTREME to describe something extreme? Can't use the word large to describe something large? Can't use the word stupid to describe stupid people? Can't describe things using the words that describe them? Is that your point?

Welcome to Geezer's 1984, where he decides what words you can use, and he is is double plus ungood.

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, I can't use the word EXTREME to describe something extreme? Is that your point?



Certainly you can. It just makes it funny, that's all.

The use of the word "all" to highlight the extreme viewpoint of the post about extremism is also pretty good.

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:38 AM

CAVETROLL


Pot and cocaine are terrible and evil when done by Bush. But they are okay when done by Obama. Typical.


Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:39 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, the fact that you're extremely stupid IS funny! THANKS! for seeing things my way!

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:39 AM

STORYMARK


Stewart did a brilliant take-down of the right and their cognitive dissonance over this.

It's a librul lie! But it's true.

It was taken out of context! Oh, it wasn't? Well, then he was right!

It's from May, so it's too old to be relevant! So here's a video of Obama from 14 Mays ago!

http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/get/flashplayer/current/swflash.cab&q
uot;> name="movie" value=" http://embed.crooksandliars.com/v/MjU1NjItNjE2NzU?color=C93033"; />http://embed.crooksandliars.com/v/MjU1NjItNjE2NzU?color=C93033"; quality="high" wmode="transparent" width="400" height="336" allowfullscreen="true" name="clembedMjU1NjItNjE2NzU" align="middle" quality="high" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage=" http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer">ect>;

This is turning out to be a hell of an entertaining election, watching these fools spin as hard as they can, and then maroons like geez and Rappy rushing to keep up with whatever the message is at any particluar time.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, September 21, 2012 4:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yes, the fact that you're extremely stupid IS funny! THANKS! for seeing things my way!



Why Kiki, you edited your post after posting it. Are you gonna put that on your list?

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Friday, September 21, 2012 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mark, I'd love to see that video--the link didn't work.

As for the rest of this thread, yes, it is pretty much stupid. Nice to see our righties are back, making as little sense as susual, tho'. Life just wasn't "right" without them.


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Friday, September 21, 2012 12:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, I can't use the word EXTREME to describe something extreme? Can't use the word large to describe something large? Can't use the word stupid to describe stupid people? Can't describe things using the words that describe them? Is that your point?

Welcome to Geezer's 1984, where he decides what words you can use, and he is is double plus ungood.



If I'm an 'extremist' in the round earth camp, and someone else is an 'extremist' in the flat earth camp, does the fact that BOTH of us are 'extremists' cancel each of us out, making neither of us right ?

Ponder that one, Homer.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, September 24, 2012 5:43 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Were you drunk when you posted that?

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Monday, September 24, 2012 7:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I doubt it--that IS kind of the way Raptor's "logic" works.

Then again...


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