REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

On the subject of wage discrimination by gender

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, October 18, 2012 06:09
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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 1:19 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'd like to add an addendum regarding Dr. Warren Farrel. "In his own book, Dr. Farrel argues that although discrimination sometimes plays a part, both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn." Ergo, even in his own argument, he admits that discrimination exists. Also there is the fact that the cited speech was given at the CATO Institute, which, as Kiki aluded to, is a libertarian think tank that often works in coalitions with right-wing groups and which has increased its ties to right-wing policymakers over the years. Ergo to consider it an objective source is something I, too, would find difficult to do.

If anyone ACTUALLY wants to debate this issue, WITH FACTS AND FIGURES, I'd love to. That's the problem with Rap/Troll/etc. As I stated in the other thread, we realize this about you, Rap, and I'm extrapolating to believe that's how your cohorts feel:
Quote:

Raptor 5/23/12
Quote:

Byte: I don't think you're lying, I think you're speaking off the cuff. But it's important even then to try to be as accurate as possible, because when you're not, someone will call you on making a mistake.
Quote:

Yeah, a fair and truth-some statement. I do speak off the cuff, mostly, as I view these forums as more as free flowing conversations, and not term papers, to be accompanied by voluminous pages of cut and paste, or twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one. But that's just how I roll. Your usage may vary.


Given that, if you want to make statements like "I don't think there's a gender gap", that's fine. That's called "disagreeing", it's your opinion and we can go right on communicating. But when you make flat statements like you did, you are inviting others to show that your statement is wrong. That's called "debating". Calling people names because they say you're wrong is an infantile reaction.

If you want to treat this forum as a "free-flowing conversation", then accept that what you want to say is your opinion, and ONLY that, and don't snark at people who prove you wrong. If you want to "win" and PROVE your statement is fact, you have to be prepared to prove what you say--not with partisan puff articles, YouTube videos or opinion pieces, but with cites to factually-based material, and you can't dismiss material offered by others to prove their points. It's entirely up to you.

Along those lines, I offer:

Fact: Critics charge that pay differences between men and women are simply a matter of personal choices. In 2007, AAUW addressed this argument in our report Behind the Pay Gap, which analyzed earnings data for female and male college graduates one year and 10 years after graduation. We found that just one year after college graduation, women earned only 80 percent of what their male counterparts made. Ten years after graduation, women fell further behind, earning only 69 percent of what men earned. Dey, Judy Goldberg, and Catherine Hill. (2007). Behind the Pay Gap

Fact: After accounting for college major, occupation, industry, sector, hours worked, workplace flexibility, experience, educational attainment, enrollment status, GPA, institution selectivity, age, race/ethnicity, region, marital status, and number of children, a 5 percent difference in the earnings of male and female college graduates one year after graduation was still unexplained. A similar analysis of full-time workers 10 years after college graduation found a 12 percent unexplained difference in earnings. Other researchers have also found that the gender pay gap is not fully accounted for by women’s and men’s choices. ( Blau, Francine D., and Lawrence M. Kahn. (2006). The U.S. gender pay gap in the 1990s: Slowing convergence. Industrial and Labor Relations Review 60 (1): 45–65 and Bobbitt-Zeher, D. (2007). The gender income gap and the role of education. Sociology of Education 80, 1–22.

Fact: In nearly every line of work, women face a pay gap. Among the many occupations for which the Bureau of Labor Statistics collects data that allow for valid comparison, women’s earnings are higher than men’s in only a handful. U.S. Department of Labor, U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. (January 2011). Employment and Earnings. Table 39. www.bls.gov/opub/ee/empearn201101.pdf.]

Fact: Increasing the number of women in traditionally male fields is likely to improve wages for women, but it is unlikely to fully eliminate the pay gap. Women in “male” jobs such as computer programming still face a pay gap compared with their male counterparts, even though they may earn higher salaries than women in traditionally female fields. It will take more than individual women pursuing careers in “male” fields to ensure fair pay for all. Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics. Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey. Annual Average Data 2011, Table 39. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf]

Then there's Wall Street:
Quote:

Penn Study Documents Gender Pay Gap Among Stockbrokers

New published research by Janice Madden, professor of regional science, sociology and real estate at the University of Pennsylvania, shows that female stockbrokers can earn as much as 20 percent less than their male counterparts. “Stockbrokers are among the highest paid workers, yet they have the greatest gender inequality among all sales worker jobs,” Madden said.

Her paper “Performance-Support Bias and the Gender Pay Gap Among Stockbrokers” will appear in the June issue of Gender & Society { http://gas.sagepub.com/ a peer-reviewed journal}. The study is the first to show that bias can affect performance-based pay.

Madden reviewed data collected from two of the largest commercial brokerage houses in the U.S. Madden is the first researcher to gain access to this type of in-depth brokerage data. The firms provided Madden records on more than a billion individual customer account transactions that occurred from 1994 to 1996 as well as employment histories of brokers from each company. Nearly 90 percent of the employees were men.

At both firms, men and women were paid entirely by commission, using an algorithm that was the same for everyone and could not be changed by managers. Madden found that the women stockbrokers were not paid – or given raises -- based on subjective performance reviews by their managers.

The women brokers claimed the differences in their earnings stemmed from unequal treatment, stating that they were given less support than men and assigned inferior accounts. The brokerage houses blamed “sales capacities” for the disparity in pay. Madden, however, found there was no difference in the ability of women to make sales compared with their male colleagues.

“Stock brokerages are less hierarchical than most organizations in that they have a relatively small number of job levels,” Madden said. “Stockbrokers, in particular, are all in the same job — there’s no hierarchy — and their pay is based entirely on commissions generated from their sales of securities, not on supervisors’ more subjective evaluations of their performance.”

Overall the evidence points to the fact that the firms assigned women “inferior sales opportunities” in the first place. http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/penn-study-documents-gender-pay-gap
-among-stockbrokers


As to women's "choices" of occupations explaining the pay difference, there's this:
Quote:

Workers don't choose their industry in a vacuum. "Why do you think [male-dominated industries] are sex-segregated?" says Terry O'Neill, president of the National Organization for Women. "Very often women aren't welcome there." Real or perceived, discrimination in certain sectors could discourage women from seeking employment there. A dearth of role models might, in turn, influence the next generation of girls to gravitate toward lower-paying fields, creating an unfortunate cycle. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html#ixzz29b
Ags4be


Further from the above:
Quote:

Women earned less than men in all 20 industries and 25 occupation groups surveyed by the Census Bureau in 2007 — even in fields in which their numbers are overwhelming. Female secretaries, for instance, earn just 83.4% as much as male ones. And those who pick male-dominated fields earn less than men too: female truck drivers, for instance, earn just 76.5% of the weekly pay of their male counterparts.

Then there's this:
Quote:

Perhaps the most compelling — and potentially damning — data of all to suggest that gender has an influence comes from a 2008 study in which University of Chicago sociologist Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more.same

How can one explain THAT, if it was just about choices, or experience, skills, etc.?

This article also notes the same fact as I presented before:
Quote:

Yet no matter how you interpret the numbers, there are a few stubborn percentage points that can't be explained away. Economists and advocates alike speculate that these are the products of slippery factors like discrimination — conscious or not. A 2000 study, for instance, famously found that after symphony orchestras introduced blind auditions, requiring musicians to perform behind a screen, women became more likely to get the gig. "I think discrimination has declined," says Cornell's Blau. "But I'm not yet seeing or believing that it's been completely eliminated."

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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Thank you for citing actual studies.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 7:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109.full.pdf

When identical CVs were randomly assigned female or male gendered names and rated by science faculty for the position of lab manager, males were consistently rated as more competent, more hireable, and offered higher starting salaries and more mentoring.

Science faculty’s [NOT so-] subtle gender biases favor male students
Corinne A. Moss-Racusina,b, John F. Dovidiob, Victoria L. Brescollc, Mark J. Grahama,d, and Jo Handelsmana, Department of Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology, Department of Psychology, School of Management, and Department of Psychiatry,
Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520
Edited* by Shirley Tilghman, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ, and approved August 21, 2012 (received for review July 2, 2012)
g

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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 7:51 PM

OONJERAH




My best friend ever from the age of 25 up and married a
soldier many years ago ... a retiring Army Master-Sgt.
For years, we stayed in touch by occasional phone calls
and the annual Christmas letter. But as soon as we both
had computers and eMail, Bill began to send me jokes ...
the majority of them are gender jokes of which he never
tires.

This one may show why Men really do deserve higher
pay than women.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



The difference between men and women:
Given a choice of catching a fly ball or saving a baby's
life, a woman will choose to save the baby's life every time,
without even considering if there is a runner on third.


Priorities.


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Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You are most welcome, Kiki.

Nothing from the right? Nobody wants to actually debate the issue? Should I save all this for the next time one of them claims wage-discrimination doesn't exist?

Oh well...


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