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And really - Niki saying she wishes that the conservatives here were smarter isn't even remotely in the same fucking ballpark as Wulf saying he wants her to die. That's a ridiculous equivocation.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Nick said something to AURaptor about "fix your brain or leave," and then said he doesn't really want any of the conservatives to leave except maybe Wulf, then said he doesn't want anyone to leave but thinks PN's posts give a bad impression of the board.

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I really don't want anyone to leave, but I don't want people here who post ridiculousness over and over. When was the last time Wolf posted anything of substance? PN's threads could easily turn someone off from visiting this site. Imagine a new Browncoat who happens to be Jewish looking in on RWED after one of PN posting blitzes.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
As amusing as this is, in a "lord of the flies" kind of way, it has become necessary to point out that if you guys chase away the only conservatives remaining on the board, you'll have no one left to argue with except among yourselves. Also, that hemorrhaging posters is a good way to dissolve the community entirely.

In that respect I feel like I should try to explain both positions in this argument so that there's actually a baseline to argue from.

AURaptor, Nick's not a child molester. Also, the reason Nick and Kwicko are accusing you of "advocated government kidnaping and torturing people based on nothing more than suspicion" is because at one point you supported the PATRIOT Act, which is basically what some of us see that as. You are free to disagree that is what the PATRIOT Act is.

However. Nick, Kwicko: AURaptor has never in my hearing posted anything in support of mandatory ultrasounds, shaming rape victims, or even anything about banning abortions. What AuRaptor did post once was a rather questionable defense of Rush Limbaugh calling a young woman a whore, because she was advocating on behalf of a friend who had a condition that needed to be regulated by hormones commonly found in birth control pills, and that they were asking for insurance coverage for this.

I don't know where the forced sterilization of poor women thing might be coming from. Perhaps something from before my time here.

Although, AURaptor, sometimes some of your responses on abortion threads, while never actually saying that you would ban abortions, you talk about how you understand why religious types might want to. Not a very strong condemnation.

There. NOW I think we can have a discussion about this.

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Here's a novel idea. Take care of your own.

Can't do that? Then they no longer will be YOURS. We make sure the ones who are here, the children who didn't ask to be put in this position, are taken from you, and put where they can grow and learn and eventually do for themselves, and the mother ? In a word... 'fixed'. No more 'presents from god', you've been 'blessed' enough.

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Women seeking an abortion in North Carolina will have to wait 24 hours, receive counseling and be presented with an ultrasound image of the fetus under an informed consent law passed on Thursday over the governor's objections.

Democratic Governor Beverly Perdue had vetoed the measure. But the state Senate voted on Thursday to override the veto, two days after the House of Representatives took similar action, which means the bill is now law and will take effect in October.

North Carolina joins 25 other states that require pre-abortion counseling that goes beyond basic medical "informed consent," according to Elizabeth Nash, public policy associate with Guttmacher Institute in Washington.

It is the tenth state to include the additional requirement of an ultrasound, which has drawn legal challenges in several states, Nash said.

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Great job, North Carolina !

Welcome to the 21st century !


AWESOME !

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Well, I guess there isn't any ambiguity about that one. It does seem it was during my time here, although my memory is rubbish for any time period greater than a month, and usually also anything longer than a day.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


How fast will Rappy run away from this thread now that he's been made an ass yet again?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Have fun trying to find any proof of that.

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Me claiming as such is every bit as much 'proof' as your little HS clique voting on me being a fundie.



- you've advocated forced sterilization of poor women, ( nope, not true )

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Also...
- You've advocated mandated vaginal probes for pregnant women, ( I never did )

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Nickerson, see how it works ? Kwickie lies his ass off, and then you follow up on the lie as if what he said was factual.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Once again, you're distorting my words, taking me out of context, and ignoring the discussion in which those words were said.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I know exactly what I said, dumb ass. It's you losers who can't accept reality that have to distort facts and twists words so that you can 'win' the argument.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The fixed thing is pretty clear, though it's nothing that others haven't said in the heat of the moment. I mean, sometimes members of this board have suggested that other members be sterilized or not have children. It's not the nicest thing to say and also something I would never say, but it is also not indicative of a greater philosophy on the part of the person saying it. Not anymore than a thread where people hoped PN was forced to go to prison and be subjected to the attentions of the inmates means that the people who were in favour hate free speech and are pro-rape.

The ultrasound example is less clear. I've been trying to find out if the ultrasounds in question are the probes or if they are external ultrasounds, but from the language of the posted article AuRaptor responded to, I am unsure. (EDIT: This is what I get for having a bad memory. I apparently already chased this information down and determined that the language of the law is deliberately obfuscated in regards to heartbeats but means a vaginal ultrasound)

It is possible that AURaptor did not realize they were vaginal ultrasounds based on the article.

In context it's also possible AURaptor is being sarcastic. (EDIT: Ah, no. He later says "LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." So he actually does believe this stuff, but doesn't own it all the time. I'd been wondering why he gets so dodgy about it)

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Although, he might still think those words were intended in a different light. Or, he might be slowly changing his mind or distancing himself from past views, or not remember how strongly he had phrased his statements.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Although, he might still think those words were intended in a different light. Or, he might be slowly changing his mind or distancing himself from past views, or not remember how strongly he had phrased his statements.

For example, I usually think I'm pretty consistent, and the times I've looked back at threads when topics come up repeatedly, I notice I'm usually saying the same things and falling the same way on similar issues - I just don't remember exactly what I said. But if someone tried to hold me to everything I'd ever said in the past, I'd be completely fucked. So would everyone else here I think.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Look, everyone needs someone to defend them now and then. If AURaptor doesn't step up soon, then I have to be the one to do it.

Frankly, I don't buy into either side's efforts to demonize each other. You all have different ideas about things, but for goodness sakes, you're all decent people. :/

I don't AGREE with AURaptor because he likes the Patriot Act and because he's a pro-lifer, among other reasons, but it doesn't mean I think he's an inhuman heil hitler jackboot monster like all of you make him out to be. Just like people who are pro-choice aren't inhuman baby killing monsters who put fetuses on their dinner salad.

Come on guys. You're all just a bunch of mostly Americans with some Brits and Australians who happen to support one party or another in a ridiculous farce of a political arena. You all have different points of view on wedge issues that I'm not even sure MATTER because regardless which side you support, both are authoritarian and nothing changes and ultimately you have no say in anything your leadership does. In short you're NORMAL PEOPLE and par for the course as it comes with citizens of our respective countries.

Of course all of you are going to slip up and say something now and then that you took a little far, or you're going to get frustrated and drop some swears. But to spend every moment of the day dragging up each other's pasts when none of us probably remember any of the crap we might've said yesterday isn't going to accomplish anything.

I'm defending AURaptor because I think he quite honestly believes he doesn't support "mandatory rape of women trying to get abortions" in a strictly technical sense, and while I don't agree with him, I understand what his reasoning is and the mindframe that reasoning evolved from. Similarly I also get you guys. What I DON'T get is where the disconnect is that neither of you can see where the other side is coming from and what their reasoning is. If we could figure that out, we might be able to have discussions again.

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Why should I care what Rappy really thinks when he believes I want the government to take over everything and control people cradle to grave?

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Byte, sorry but I have to cry "bias".

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I just wish people like Geezer, Rap, Wulf, etc., were WILLING to be civil, just to try it out, say, for a while.

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Oh my gawd!! Are you serious?!? That one just fucking leaves my jaw on the ground. The mere concept that you find someone on the internet typing "I wish you'd go away" to be the EQUIVALENT of someone writing "I wish you would die". I'm speechless. I can't touch that one.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
[He says he doesn't support mandatory rape or sterilizing impoverished women or unqualified torture. I take him at face value. Even if in the past he has said things that seem to contradict that, I tell myself maybe there's an extenuating circumstance here why AURaptor feels that this situation doesn't fall into that category, or something he doesn't know, or maybe he thinks something is an exception rather than the rule. What I do know for certain is you're not going to prove someone wrong about what they think that they think. And you're not going to get them to explain the apparent discrepancies in their stance on an issue by making them even more defensive.

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