REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mind over Matter

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 20:07
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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This is a question for you science types out there with brains bigger than mine.

Just how many of the body functions are controlled by the brain?

What I mean is, if you replaced the human brain with a theoretical 100,000 man control center, what could they do to the human body on their control consoles?

Could they constrict blood vessels? Dissolve or build body tissues? Adjust heart rate? Eliminate pain signals? Change body temperature? Alter metabolism? Create a porn-worthy hour-long erection? Release adrenaline? Increase apparent strength?

What is the limit to which the human brain can control the human body? Is it really all in the head, or is the body mostly responsible for taking care of its own business?

--Anthony

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Heartbeat, breathing, sensory information, behavioural regulation, and all voluntary muscle control is controlled by the brain (involuntary muscle stuff like the esophagus or diaphragm is not controlled, hence hiccups). Everything else as far as I know pretty much happens on its own, and the amount of involvement from the brain in some cases, like paralysis, can be greatly reduced and yet some functions will still work.

In the list you provided, these are controlled by the brain: adjust heart rate, eliminate pain signals, change body temperature (involuntary), release adrenaline.

The third to last one is definitely not controlled by the brain (insert bad joke here). Even men in persistent vegetative states or who are completely paralyzed can perform.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What controls the 'autonomic' functions? And erections, for that matter?

I know we can choose not to breathe (for a while.) But what part of the body does most of the behind-the-scenes regulating and bookkeeping?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:46 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

This is a question for you science types out there with brains bigger than mine.

Just how many of the body functions are controlled by the brain?

What I mean is, if you replaced the human brain with a theoretical 100,000 man control center, what could they do to the human body on their control consoles?

Could they constrict blood vessels? Dissolve or build body tissues? Adjust heart rate? Eliminate pain signals? Change body temperature? Alter metabolism? Create a porn-worthy hour-long erection? Release adrenaline? Increase apparent strength?

What is the limit to which the human brain can control the human body? Is it really all in the head, or is the body mostly responsible for taking care of its own business?

--Anthony



There is a fair bit your brain does not control, however much of that is controlled by some part of you central nervious system.

That being said I think a control center such as you discribed could keep a person alive and perhaps moving about. On the same token I doubt they would be able to control someone enough to sign a sheet of paper.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

however much of that is controlled by some part of you central nervious system.


Hello,

Like... the spine? What are we talking about exactly?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:51 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I know we can choose not to breathe (for a while.) But what part of the body does most of the behind-the-scenes regulating and bookkeeping?


I think you are looking for the Autonomic Nervous System.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system


Oh, and a bit of trivia since you have brought up erections twice now. Your erection is cause by muscles relaxing, not tensing. That is why nervous men can not achieve full salute but are already doing so when we wake up.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I know we can choose not to breathe (for a while.) But what part of the body does most of the behind-the-scenes regulating and bookkeeping?


I think you are looking for the Autonomic Nervous System.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system


Oh, and a bit of trivia since you have brought up erections twice now. Your erection is cause by muscles relaxing, not tensing. That is why nervous men can not achieve full salute but are already doing so when we wake up.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359]

Hello,

According to this information, the Autonomic Nervous System is located in the brain, too. And it controls a lot!

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. The autonomic nervous system controls a lot of things that are controlled by the brainstem, which I consider part of the brain.

I was answering Anthony's questions in the sense of envisioning what the body can do with most of the brain and spinal cord shut down, excepting things that have to remain functioning with the brainstem to sustain life. That helped me narrow down to things that are controlled by the brain when it is functional.

My understanding about the other question is that the spinal cord also does play a role, as there are certain points of the spine that can be stimulated, say, during massage, with noticeable reaction. And SOMEHOW this reaction is still present even with spinal paralysis. However, it is probably true that it is mostly the brainstem.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:17 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
According to this information, the Autonomic Nervous System is located in the brain, too. And it controls a lot!



Yes. When you start looking at issues like this it is hard to look at the brain as a single organ. When you talk about the brain I usually think about the 4 major lobes and perhaps the Cerebellum.

So if you are talking about a control center talking over every single function of the brain (as a whole) and not just the higher fucntions, no 100,000 would not be enough. I doubt a million would be enough.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

So, what about cell growth and things like that? Does the brain/spine have any input into that kind of behavior?

If I get a cut, or break a bone, what makes it heal? Do the cells just get shaking on their own without any input? If I put a broken bone in a nutrient vat, would the cells heal themselves?

What about muscles and fat? How does your body decide when to grow muscle and fat cells? And does the brain get any input? Or is it just a mechanical reaction?

Also, for those things that are controlled by chemicals/hormones, are these just carriers for the brains will aka endocrine system is the email of the body, while the nervous system is Skype live chat?

And when you get an arm cut off or blown off, sometimes the vessels seem to constrict and keep a person from bleeding out. Other times the person bleeds out of open arteries and such in seconds. What makes the difference? How does the body decide what to do in this kind of trauma? Does the brain/stem/spine have any input?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:22 PM

MAL4PREZ


Anthony, I can't answer your question, all I can do is applaud the spirit in which it's asked.

I have spent a fair amount of time writing computer software that will recognize patterns in a page full of squiggly lines. It astounds me how difficult it is to code such a task that our eyes and brains accomplish with ease. Like this: any human being can carry out a conversation while music plays in the background. They can distinguish between the voice of their companion and the music and the various background noises, they can even break the music into various voices: the lead guitar vs the bass vs the drums etc. It is very very hard to make a computer do this.

A computer can calculate 45165/437289543 to a frightening degree of accuracy and precision in an unimaginably short time, yet it cannot accomplish these higher order tasks that our squishy biological brains handle without much effort.

There's a kind of "messy" computation our neurons do. We don't do simple thing to high precision. We recognize patterns. I left academia a while ago so I've lost track of the catch phrases, but some computer scientists are looking into getting computers to do this "messy" thought. "Neural nets" I believe?

It's completely fascinating to me, and if my brain wasn't always tired from teaching all day, I'd be into trying to understand this more. There's something about a cluster of lots and lots of neurons, the way they restructure themselves to form patterns, that allow us to do things computers can't do. The kind of things you're talking about. I think it has to do with how very many neurons we have, and they way they adapt and structure themselves while we're young.

Two sci-fi references: 1. Mike from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (I love that book!) who becomes sentient and rather human-like when he # of processors becomes equivalent to the # of human neurons. 2. The number of trees and such on the moon in Avatar, which could make it complex enough a system to be brain-like.

BTW, this also ties into my theory that nature is a much better "creator" than any human-like God. Evolution created our brains, and our brains kick the ass of anything humans have been able to create by tinkering.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


I have spent a fair amount of time writing computer software that will recognize patterns in a page full of squiggly lines.



Hello,

Oh no! Soon spamware will be able to figure out forum registration protocols.

(Usually when registering on a forum, I am presented with a box containing weird patterns, and then some letters or numbers superimposed that must be typed in. The idea being that software can not be made to correctly read this image and come up with the correct response. Hence only a human can register.)

I am trying to imagine what a person could do if they could exert conscious control over all brain functions- conscious and subconscious. (That is assuming that they could simultaneously pay attention to all this minutiae. Hence the control room example. The control room could be a billion people for argument's sake.)

I'm trying to discover what you could control if you could absolutely and positively control every aspect of the brain/stem/spine. Just how far does our brain/nervous system provide input over the minute details of our body's operation... and how much is uncontrolled by the brain, and hence not accessible via a central operating system/control center.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:43 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So, what about cell growth and things like that? Does the brain/spine have any input into that kind of behavior?


No. Apart from controlling blood pressure and heart rate so the cells get the nutrients and oxygen they need.

Quote:

If I get a cut, or break a bone, what makes it heal? Do the cells just get shaking on their own without any input? If I put a broken bone in a nutrient vat, would the cells heal themselves?

What about muscles and fat? How does your body decide when to grow muscle and fat cells? And does the brain get any input? Or is it just a mechanical reaction?

Also, for those things that are controlled by chemicals/hormones, are these just carriers for the brains will aka endocrine system is the email of the body, while the nervous system is Skype live chat?



Pretty much. Less sure about the accuracy of the last analogy, but it could be applicable. I can't think up a better analogy.

Quote:

And when you get an arm cut off or blown off, sometimes the vessels seem to constrict and keep a person from bleeding out. Other times the person bleeds out of open arteries and such in seconds. What makes the difference? How does the body decide what to do in this kind of trauma? Does the brain/stem/spine have any input?


Not that I know of.

I would guess that constriction of the blood vessels is related to medical shock. Reading on wikipedia, this seems to be related to Ca+ release from injured smooth muscle tissues.

EDIT: Hmm, right about the medical shock, not quite about the brain participation. It appears adrenaline and nopinephrine neurotransmitters are a part of this.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:01 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

It appears adrenaline and nopinephrine neurotransmitters are a part of this.


Hello,

That's amazing. So if you had complete voluntary control of everything that's involuntary in the brain... you could *choose* to bleed less by constricting your own blood vessels.

But you still couldn't grow muscles or shed fat or control the mending rate of bones and other tissues, I guess.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:03 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Oh no! Soon spamware will be able to figure out forum registration protocols.

(Usually when registering on a forum, I am presented with a box containing weird patterns, and then some letters or numbers superimposed that must be typed in. The idea being that software can not be made to correctly read this image and come up with the correct response. Hence only a human can register.)

I hate those! Though I do understand their purpose. I'll support anything that kills bots.

But I mean more of this kind of thing:


Quote:

I am trying to imagine what a person could do if they could exert conscious control over all brain functions- conscious and subconscious. (That is assuming that they could simultaneously pay attention to all this minutiae. Hence the control room example. The control room could be a billion people for argument's sake.)

I'm trying to discover what you could control if you could absolutely and positively control every aspect of the brain/stem/spine. Just how far does our brain/nervous system provide input over the minute details of our body's operation... and how much is uncontrolled by the brain, and hence not accessible via a central operating system/control center.

It's a great analogy. The difficulty is in the scale. You would have so so many little workers and so many control rooms - like billions - taking part on a completely different time scale.

In the one second it takes for your brain to do something, signals have flashed through the brain maybe millions of times (I don't really know millions or billions, but I'm figuring a LOT). So it's like your little human workers go to the office, do their thing, go home, deal with their other issues, while contributing to a task like evolving a galaxy. They don't experience life on a long enough time scale to see the larger pattern of what they are doing.

Similarly, the evolving galaxy can never be aware of the 11-year cycles of sunspots on our sun. It's way way too short a time to matter in any way to the Milky Way.

We can't control our neurons because our conscious thought can't function on that scale of space and time.

It really blows my mind. Sorry to go back to this, I'm not trying to hammer anyone, just returning to something that oddly makes me very happy - the complexity of the natural world. I love it.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

So what's with the squiggly lines, Mal? Cryptography?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:15 PM

BYTEMITE


Looks to me like a seismograph. (EDIT: correction, vertical seismic profile. Been a while since I took geophysics)

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:16 PM

MAL4PREZ



Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

So what's with the squiggly lines, Mal? Cryptography?

--Anthony


That's an image of the underground made from seismic waves. I used to spend a lot of time making these. It helps find oil, mostly, though there are other uses.


ETA: Byte - it's a seismic section I found randomly with google. I don't think it's a VSP. I did my thesis on those, BTW. :)

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

So it's like sonar that can tell you what's in the ground?

Here's an oil pocket. There's a dead body. Some water now. Underground bunker. Etc.

The only trick is interpreting the wave patterns?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:24 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

So it's like sonar that can tell you what's in the ground?

Here's an oil pocket. There's a dead body. Some water now. Underground bunker. Etc.

The only trick is interpreting the wave patterns?

--Anthony


Exactly, only underground there are two kind of waves and these images are made by combining reflections from hundreds (or thousands) of shots recorded by hundreds of receivers, when you can't be quite sure where the waves went or how fast they traveled or how exactly they reflected. It's a big mess.

Shallow studies could find dead bodies, I guess. Oil exploration is often looking for features kilometers deep and you're lucky to resolve reflectors a hundred meters apart. But images like this are how oil companies decide whether or not to bid on lots in the Gulf or wherever. You have to look at those squiggles and decide whether there's oil.

Honestly, I found it rather soul-less. And I would have had to live in Texas, and not in the good spot like Kwicko. *shudder*

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Yep! squiggles evenly distributed over area, straight line representing location and depth. The squiggle from the straight line represents a frequency through the medium, slope of it represents velocity of the wave. Seismic waves travel faster through more solid medium than through liquid or gaseous medium. Reflections and interference sometimes cause waves to backwards (towards the surface) relative to others.

A human body tends to be too small to see on these I think, but you might be able to make out other features like you described if they're big enough.

EDIT: Mal4Prez has more experience than I do. If she says you could find a human body with lots of shallow receptors then she's probably right.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

You should make a cryptography technique that uses these mystifying wave patterns to code and retrieve information. Then you could be rich.

Or if you are more of a humanitarian, you could use your vast knowledge of sound wave interpretation to improve sonogram technology, automatically find tumors, etc.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 7:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I find this entirely appropriate for the thread, strangely so.



Also, the brain can overcome a fairly impressive bit of damage to any one part by compensating elsewise, this I know since my Angular Gyrus is mostly just a mass of scar tissue, resulting in something called Gerstmanns Syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerstmann_syndrome

Imagine being unable to write, and having to "draw" each letter, individually, stressfully and painfully - then being hammered on poor handwriting and mistreated as being weak, lazy and stupid.
No, that wouldn't have an affect on a kids personality at all, would it now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia

This being one of the reasons I revile paperwork, but put a keyboard in my hands and it's a WHOLE nother story!

-Frem

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Also, Re: Bots vs Humans.

Frankly, CAPTCHA is a pet peeve of mine, yet another feelgood security theatre measure which accomplishes effectively nothing and passes on additional cost and hassle to the user/consumer.
Much like DRM, which I also find despicable.

Seriously, it's like a big, fancy, hugely expensive padlock... with a 1-digit combination.
Only the most primitive of bots are stopped by it, AND it drives customers away from your site cause after 2-3 tries of trying to figure that garbage out without even the decency of clear instructions - "is it case sensitive, do i need to include the spaces?" they give up and go to your competitors, and worse, remember YOU with unkind thoughts, resulting in BAD word-of-mouth advertising of the negative sort, which is really, really hard to overcome when those who disregard such actually do try to enter your site only to have that fell opinion of you confirmed when they too run afoul of the CAPTCHA, and you watch your site traffic exponentially slow to a trickle and die...
And then blame fekkin bots, yeah - well, that model of thinking didn't work for the RIAA, ain't gonna work for you, site operator.

It's Official: Captchas Are Bad for Business
http://www.zurb.com/article/285/its-official-captchas-are-bad-for-busi
nes

Quote:

Captchas have always felt like a cop-out. As a business, you're passing your own business problem onto users. Moreover, the way in which the problem is passed onto users is half-assed and can cause loads of confusion.

Fundamentally, that's just wrong.


Why You Should Stop Using CAPTCHAs
http://webdesignledger.com/tips/why-you-should-stop-using-captchas
Quote:

Let me tell you a short story by way of introduction. Yesterday, I was trying to register on a website. The website in question employed one of the worst CAPTCHA codes that I had ever seen. It looked like a child had written something with an ink-starved pen and then left the piece of paper out in the rain. In a way, it was quite artistic, but unfortunately it was also totally illegible.

I had a go at deciphering it, made my submission, and I wasn’t surprised to be thrown back with an “incorrect code entered” message. “Oh well”, I thought, “the next CAPTCHA they give me can’t be as bad as that one was.”
It wasn’t. It was worse.

This one resembled the stains left on my carpet when my cat has engaged in a midnight feast on an unsuspecting rodent. Not only was it also illegible, but I also couldn’t give it any credit for being artistic this time. I really wanted to register on this site though, so I screwed up my face, got my eyes as close to the screen as possible before my focus started to distort, and tapped the letters and numbers into my keyboard.

“Incorrect code entered. Please try again.”

Now, as someone who works in the web design industry, I have a fairly decent attention span on the Internet; probably more so than most of Joe Public. But by this time, I was getting frustrated. I didn’t have time for this.

So I left the site open and opened a new tab, just to curiously check to see if I’d missed an alternative service provider in the same sector. As it happens, I had.

A few clicks later, and no CAPTCHA code to be seen, I was registered on the alternative site, and my business was winging its way into the hands of this other website’s proprietor.



There's also the assumptions involved, much like the abject STUPIDITY of modern password "security" which is again, all show and no glow, helpfully illustrated here by XKCD.



Computers DON'T think like humans, save maybe-sorta in the case of LISP, but that's a tiny side issue, and I've mentioned elsewhere that because of that the whole notion of AI Rampancy and takeover is simply laughable.
Good for fiction though.

-Frem

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