Nooalf Discussion by m52nickerson

DALEK!

Yes I looked at it, and responded to it. They claim 60% under grade level. Grade levels are by their nature artificial. Children are learning things earlier and earlier. Perhaps the problem is how fast we expect them to progress.

Of course I posted links with much high literacy rates. Even a thirty horse will not drink foul water.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:02 PM

rezident owtsidr

Here's sumthing new for you to deny or ignore:

[url] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,102926,00.html]

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

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Wednesday, November 28, 2012 4:24 AM

DALEK!

Yes English is complex, yes it is hard. Does that mean we should change the whole system...maybe.

However as far as you system it fails because it is not what you claim. It is not a one letter for one sound system.

From the article, "English has 1,120 different ways of spelling its 40 phonemes, the sounds required to pronounce all its words."

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Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:31 AM

rezident owtsidr

You are mislabeling disorganization az 'complex'.

There are not 40 fonemez.

Here:[url] http://www.unifon.org/images/UNIFON%20Eye%20Chart.pdf]

This iz the next best system to Nooalf. It's based on the suppozed 40 soundz uv English. Print it and study it for a day. Try riting a few paragrafs. I believe that even you will be able to find the superfluous letter/soundz.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:54 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You are mislabeling disorganization az 'complex'.

The vast majority of word spelling fall into some rule or the other.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
There are not 40 fonemez.

In your opinion, which has been shown to be wrong. I can offer citation after citation on this. You claim regarding this has been debunked regardless of if you like it or not.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Here:[url] http://www.unifon.org/images/UNIFON%20Eye%20Chart.pdf]

This iz the next best system to Nooalf. It's based on the suppozed 40 soundz uv English. Print it and study it for a day. Try riting a few paragrafs. I believe that even you will be able to find the superfluous letter/soundz.

All ready better than your system. Going through the chart I don't see, or hear and superfluous sounds. Perhaps you don't pronounce words properly, or differently than other people.

Of course this system was created in the 50's, is better than yours in that it does have one letter for one sound, and still never got any traction.

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A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
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Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:59 PM

rezident owtsidr

Got sum traction. Still haz.

Are you going to try the test?

Quote:

The vast majority of word spelling fall into some rule or the other.

Theres a substantiv claim. Back it up. Lets see at least 10 rules rite here that can gide sumwun in spelling or pronouncing an unfamiliar word.

Quote:

In your opinion, which has been shown to be wrong. I can offer citation after citation on this. You claim regarding this has been debunked regardless of if you like it or not.

So how many soundz are there? Unifon sez 40, Many IPA based charts say 44, the ITA haz 48.

Google "sounds of english charts". Pick whichever wun you like. Uze a dozen, wutever you need. With all that firepower it shoud be a trivial task to come up with bunchez uv word pairz that Nooalf cannot distinguish.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

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Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:24 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Theres a substantiv claim. Back it up. Lets see at least 10 rules rite here that can gide sumwun in spelling or pronouncing an unfamiliar word.

Here is 28.

http://www.riggsinst.org/28rules.aspx

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
So how many soundz are there? Unifon sez 40, Many IPA based charts say 44, the ITA haz 48.

How many, at least 40. Or more than you have.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Google "sounds of english charts". Pick whichever wun you like. Uze a dozen, wutever you need. With all that firepower it shoud be a trivial task to come up with bunchez uv word pairz that Nooalf cannot distinguish.

From the IPA which as you point out has 44 sounds. Since yours has 34 some our oviously missing. Here are 3.

http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm

? - away, cinema

?:? - turn, learn

? - she, crash

*The ? marks are for symbols this site will not display correctly. You will find them in the link next to the examples I gave.

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Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:05 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Here is 28.

http://www.riggsinst.org/28rules.aspx]

Not bad, considering the circumstansez. A little mistake, however, iz that thoze are actually obzervationz, not rulez.

Anyway, duz it not seem juuuuust a little silly to you that there woud suppozedly be by dezine 28 'rulez' for working with 26 letterz just to avoid adding 8 or 9 more letterz.

Good website! You shoud study it more, especially theze charts: [url] http://www.riggsinst.org/assess.aspx]

Quote:
How many, at least 40. Or more than you have...
From the IPA which as you point out has 44 sounds. Since yours has 34 some our oviously missing. Here are 3.

away, cinema

turn, learn

she, crash

U, R, s

Sins you apparently thought thoze were actual missing soundz frum Nooalf, you certainly havent notice the small black letterz next to the blue Nooalf letterz on the chart. Thoze are the standard keyboard equivelent letterz, so the lower case s = the sh sound.

Try harder. MUCH harder.

----------------------------
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Friday, November 30, 2012 2:44 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Not bad, considering the circumstansez. A little mistake, however, iz that thoze are actually obzervationz, not rulez.

No they are rules. You are simply trying to argue semantics because you are desperate.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Anyway, duz it not seem juuuuust a little silly to you that there woud suppozedly be by dezine 28 'rulez' for working with 26 letterz just to avoid adding 8 or 9 more letterz.

If we were starting from scratch, yes. In an evolutionary language, no.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
U, R, s

Sins you apparently thought thoze were actual missing soundz frum Nooalf, you certainly havent notice the small black letterz next to the blue Nooalf letterz on the chart. Thoze are the standard keyboard equivelent letterz, so the lower case s = the sh sound.

I will give you the "s". That than means you are missing the s sound in pleasure, vision.

Your U and R are not equivalent to the "a" sound in away, cinema or the "ur" sound in turn, learn. Sorry. Your system is not one letter one sound. Never was, never will be.

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A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
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Friday, November 30, 2012 8:14 AM

rezident owtsidr

I sed try harder not less hard.

All your proclimationz about Nooalf are based on not knowing anything about it.

All your claimz that therez no problem with English are based on willfull ignorance.

I've been thru this before with people who operate mainly by emotion and seem to actively avoid lojik.

This iznt a debate. You are like a delusional skinny nerd who jumps into the boxing ring on amature nite against Mike Tyson. You danse around for about 10 secondz, throwing feeble punchez, get knocked clean out uv the ring and dream that you won, waking up a week later wondering where your prize money iz.

How much time hav you spent on this thred? (Not to mention my time and everybody else who commented or at least red it) You coud hav saved all that time by reading the LoJIK paje. You shoud at least study the chart for 5 minits to avoid making a fool uv yourself.

----------------------------
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Friday, November 30, 2012 8:48 AM

DALEK!

So you are back to your "think harder" argument because you are unable to address my points. Nice try.

I have pointed out some phenetic sounds your chart does not have on it. If you thing this is wrong indicate where they are. You could also list the sounds you believe are duplicated on the other charts. If not I will accept your concession.

I doubt there is much logic on your LoJIK page. This might help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

I would read it if you transcribe it into English.

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Friday, November 30, 2012 12:25 PM

rezident owtsidr

How can you point out soundz that arent on the chart if you havent looked at it?

You ask me to transcribe a whole webpaje wen you are too lazy to lift an eyelid to look at anything I'v offered so far?

----------------------------
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Friday, November 30, 2012 12:37 PM

DALEK!

Never said I did not look at the chart. I used the chart and compaired it to the other charts to find the sounds missing.

Which you still have not responded to.

The only thing on your site I have not read is the stuff you have in nooalf, like the logic page. I can't read it. If you want me to you will have to transcribe it. If not you are just going to have to make those arguments here.

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Friday, November 30, 2012 2:57 PM

rezident owtsidr

Then how did you make this mistake:

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

I will give you the "s". That than means you are missing the s sound in pleasure, vision.

Quote:
Your U and R are not equivalent to the "a" sound in away, cinema or the "ur" sound in turn, learn.

Yes, they are. You hav a mistaken notion that fonemez are precise, invariable soundz that are clearly described by the IPA system. Actual linguists will tell you otherwize. If you lissin closely to any talking anywhere you may be able to hear all the adjustments, shortcuts, abbreviationz, substitutionz going on, even from the finest speakerz.

There are possibly hundredz uv 'soundz' but wut we hear are definable ranjez, so the question bekumz wut ranjez are heard az particular fonemez, then wich wunz differentiate wordz.

The real reazon you will not read the LoJIK paje iz the fear that you will be able to read it and the cement in your head will crumble away.

----------------------------
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Saturday, December 1, 2012 5:05 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Yes, they are. You hav a mistaken notion that fonemez are precise, invariable soundz that are clearly described by the IPA system. Actual linguists will tell you otherwize. If you lissin closely to any talking anywhere you may be able to hear all the adjustments, shortcuts, abbreviationz, substitutionz going on, even from the finest speakerz.

They are missing you tin eared dolt. If you say they are not missing what sounds on the IPA chart are unneeded or repeated?

You claim linguists would say different, that sounds are not that well defined. I say, citation needed.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:There are possibly hundredz uv 'soundz' but wut we hear are definable ranjez, so the question bekumz wut ranjez are heard az particular fonemez, then wich wunz differentiate wordz.

If there are hundred of possible sounds nooalf is even farther off. I have also provided citations for the heard phonics.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:The real reazon you will not read the LoJIK paje iz the fear that you will be able to read it and the cement in your head will crumble away.

The real reason you won't transcribe it is because you know I will pick it apart just like I have your arguments here.

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A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Saturday, December 1, 2012 12:10 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
They are missing, you tin eared dolt. If you say they are not missing what sounds on the IPA chart are unneeded or repeated?

Jezus sed sumthing about speaking to people in their own lingo, so to help you understand, I will go with your gratuitous pervasive insult style.

If I went with the simplified IPA chart, the next doj you woud take if you had at least average intellijens woud be to claim I wuz failing to understand linguistics. So, to hopefully save still more useless repetition, get the chart on this paje lined up in front of your bulbous gnarly noze, drag your puffy red flaky skin eylidz off uv your bludshot eyez, pour sum caffiene into your mostly empty skull and slosh it around to get your rented rat brain started and study this calamitously disjointed mess for az long az it takes to get the general idea.
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart_for
_English_dialects]

Hopefully, you will be able to get your Windows 3.1 based OS to chug along at a blazing fast 30 MHz and the Internet Explorer v1.2.0 to show 2 webpajez at the same time!!! in order to switch back and forth between this and the Wiki paje.

You will note that they hav at least 52 general entryz not counting the marginal sound(?) and reduced vowelz, so lets subtract from there.

We will go by the sample wordz.

On the left hand chart for consonants, chowderhed, there are 26 entries.

1. 'loch' iz certainly a sound worthy of a letter, but its not really English, especially not American.
2. 'ng' like in thing and pink is well within the 'n' range we hear. If linguists are discussing detailz uv speech, yes, having a letter for it iz handy, but for everybody else, the distiction iz useless. We dont need to know how a sound iz formed.
3. run, very. R iz a vowel. Not that it matterz in Nooalf.
4. hw like in what. Obviously to anybody with a complete brain, this iz 2 soundz and obviously, left to rite order iz being violated in all the wordz that hav this. If you ever paid any attention, you also woud hav noticed that most people dont say the H.

In the larjr left side uv the chart, wich seemz to be a little hezitant in differentiating sum uv the 'diaphonemes' there are sumwer between 26 and 37 entryz:
5. father, palm. No difference from off, on loss; at least not in American and even in some British dialects you woudnt notice any difference in regular speech. There are zero word distinctions no matter wut dialect.
6. comma, about. The so called 'schwa' iz U like in up, dump, ugly chump. The use uv A in spelling seemz to mislead people into believing its sumthing else. With a decent music editing program, you can clip the sound out uv theze wordz and plug them into the alternately spelled wordz and hear for yourself, O great golden eared wun.
7. spotted? They hav a lower case i with a horizontal line thru the middle. I'm gesssing its the 'shwi' I'v seen sum blathering about over the last 10 yirz. Another mistake based on spelling.
8.city, fleece, meat. They have i and i: for theze 3. Wake up. E iz E.
9. burn, winner. they hav 2 different digrafs for this. Altho I hav to giv credit for them finally figuring out that R iz a vowel, they failed to distinguish the 2 formz with the sample wrdz here and in the consonant section. Not that you hav a chance uv understanding this.
10. cute, yew. They uze ju: for this. Now this I woud expect even you to be able to hear iz 2 soundz Y like in yes and OO like in moon. C'mon! seriously, you cant?!
11. boy, hoist. Same here! O and E ! 2 soundz.
12. now, trout. And here! o and W ! they are using digraphs for theze, so I think maybe they realize its 2 soundz, but then wuz up with the chart?
13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 are all clear demonstrationz that R confuzez the krap out uv the linguist's il concieved lojik.

So we hav 52+ minus 19. Let me get a calculator.
Hmm. its showing 33. A minimum number.

Seriously, thats odd. Since I didnt take away the au sound, it shoud be 35, like on the newer Nooalf chart that haz it az an auxiliary sound on the back. O well. Chok it up to the disorganization. Maybe you, Mr. Super Linguistic Genius, who haz been picking apart my arguments here can figure it out.

Good luck trying to reinstate at least 7 soundz.

----------------------------
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Saturday, December 1, 2012 1:17 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
1. 'loch' iz certainly a sound worthy of a letter, but its not really English, especially not American.

On a chart of English sounds but not really English? HAHAHAHAAH! Also American pronunciations are not the correct or default ones. It also means there will be a gap in your system for native of Scotland.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:2. 'ng' like in thing and pink is well within the 'n' range we hear. If linguists are discussing detailz uv speech, yes, having a letter for it iz handy, but for everybody else, the distiction iz useless. We dont need to know how a sound iz formed.

There is a slight difference, but a slight difference means a difference. This would also be more pronounced in an Australian dialect.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:4. hw like in what. Obviously to anybody with a complete brain, this iz 2 soundz and obviously, left to rite order iz being violated in all the wordz that hav this. If you ever paid any attention, you also woud hav noticed that most people dont say the H.

Well except for those who have studied such things and are linguists. Also clear to me that it is not 2 sounds and is distinct from a "w" sound.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:5. father, palm. No difference from off, on loss; at least not in American and even in some British dialects you woudnt notice any difference in regular speech. There are zero word distinctions no matter wut dialect.

Do you have a speech impediment? You can hear a difference and in saying the two you can feel a difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:6. comma, about. The so called 'schwa' iz U like in up, dump, ugly chump. The use uv A in spelling seemz to mislead people into believing its sumthing else. With a decent music editing program, you can clip the sound out uv theze wordz and plug them into the alternately spelled wordz and hear for yourself, O great golden eared wun.

Don't need a music program. If you can't hear the difference in the beginning sound of "about" and "ugly" I'm sorry.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:7. spotted? They hav a lower case i with a horizontal line thru the middle. I'm gesssing its the 'shwi' I'v seen sum blathering about over the last 10 yirz. Another mistake based on spelling.

This is getting repetitive as all you are offering is your opinion, bias as it is, verses a ton of referenced material.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:8.city, fleece, meat. They have i and i: for theze 3. Wake up. E iz E.

Yes, in the US not everywhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:9. burn, winner. they hav 2 different digrafs for this. Altho I hav to giv credit for them finally figuring out that R iz a vowel, they failed to distinguish the 2 formz with the sample wrdz here and in the consonant section. Not that you hav a chance uv understanding this.

They as in the ones that know what they are talking about? Yes they has two, because there are two slightly different sounds. Also the R sound at the beginning of rabbit is not close to the same sound as the end of spider.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:10. cute, yew. They uze ju: for this. Now this I woud expect even you to be able to hear iz 2 soundz Y like in yes and OO like in moon. C'mon! seriously, you cant?!

Starting to think you don't understand what constitutes a sound.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:11. boy, hoist. Same here! O and E ! 2 soundz.

Here is more evidence.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:12. now, trout. And here! o and W ! they are using digraphs for theze, so I think maybe they realize its 2 soundz, but then wuz up with the chart?

Yup, you don't understand what a sound is.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 are all clear demonstrationz that R confuzez the krap out uv the linguist's il concieved lojik.

Really dude, get a miracle ear.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:So we hav 52+ minus 19. Let me get a calculator.
Hmm. its showing 33. A minimum number.

Seriously, thats odd. Since I didnt take away the au sound, it shoud be 35, like on the newer Nooalf chart that haz it az an auxiliary sound on the back. O well. Chok it up to the disorganization. Maybe you, Mr. Super Linguistic Genius, who haz been picking apart my arguments here can figure it out.

Good luck trying to reinstate at least 7 soundz.

Really don't have to. Your opinions are just that. They fall flat in the face of facts and anyone who can speak and hear can see how you fail.

See I don't need to be a Linguistic Genius, I have the work of those people to pull from. You simply have your failed system which is not what it claims to be.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Saturday, December 1, 2012 6:09 PM

rezident owtsidr

Thats the problem with the entire way you think. You base everything on authority.

I'm trying to rescue a fellow browncoat, but you are so brainwashed by the system, you run away from anything that looks like it mite damaj the sement in your brain.

Pity the victim.

----------------------------
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Sunday, December 2, 2012 4:55 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Thats the problem with the entire way you think. You base everything on authority.

I'm trying to rescue a fellow browncoat, but you are so brainwashed by the system, you run away from anything that looks like it mite damaj the sement in your brain.

Pity the victim.

I can hear those sounds, I can hear the differences. I'm also smart enough to understand that on a whole range of topics some people know more than I do. So when when people who have studied linguistics point something out and it makes sense, I go with them.

I don't need to be rescued and I certainly don't need to start thinking like you.

Oh...are you still scared to translate your logic page?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
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Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:55 PM

rezident owtsidr

No. Youv draqged the major points out uv me here alredy and youv ignored it all. Your like a cult member.

I'd hav to do a full scale deprogramming to hav any hope uv getting past your self defending mind virus! Throw a burlap bag over you and haul you off to a louzy hotel room for a few weeks.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:14 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
No. Youv draqged the major points out uv me here alredy and youv ignored it all. Your like a cult member.

I'd hav to do a full scale deprogramming to hav any hope uv getting past your self defending mind virus! Throw a burlap bag over you and haul you off to a louzy hotel room for a few weeks.

Ignored? Please point out anything that I've ignored and not addressed.

I've provided facts and citations. You have provided opinions, bad spelling and a health does of feeling superior. You see anyone who does not agree with you as less intelligent than you. You blame your lack of sales ability on your crappy system not selling. You ignore all the signs that point to your flaws and move ahead because everyone else is just not thinking right.

...oh and you don't use burlap. A person can see though it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:20 PM

rezident owtsidr

OOOOO! Thats wut goez rong! xanks, I'll get a better kidnap bag!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

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Wednesday, December 25, 2013 7:02 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
First off I'm debating you, not your best of the 80's style website.

A few comments.

You were rite about the website. It wuz pretty basic and stale looking. The only advantaj wuz that it loaded quick even on dial-up.

This topic duznt show up in Google search anymore. I found it with Bing. Another item uv evidens that Google iz breaking down.

I think it wuz during this debate that I wuz finally certain that lojik just duznt work on humanz. They deside wut they want to believ and thats it; no amount uv evidens agenst their choice will convins them. So the new site duznt go that way. Insted it will be ritten in Nooalf almost entirely.

----------------------------
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Thursday, December 26, 2013 10:57 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I think it wuz during this debate that I wuz finally certain that lojik just duznt work on humanz. They deside wut they want to believ and thats it; no amount uv evidens agenst their choice will convins them. So the new site duznt go that way. Insted it will be ritten in Nooalf almost entirely.

Glad to hear the new site will be totally written that way. It guarantees no one will both looking at it for very long.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 27, 2013 6:09 PM

rezident owtsidr

Youre probably rite. But it duz look alot kooler.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, December 27, 2013 6:11 PM

rezident owtsidr

HA! Just realized both our avatarz are alienz!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:42 PM

rezident owtsidr

Hey! look up nooalf at Time.com!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:14 AM

Did I post this before?

Quote:
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be ekspekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen world!

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, being the contrarian that I am, I actually prefer the faux-German version.

I think English should be made phonetic. Yes, we will have to decide WHICH pronunciation will be used... maybe there really will be UK English and American English... but the hashed-up amalgam of Greek, Latin, early German, French, and Anglo Saxon, each with its own spelling rules, makes English every difficult to learn. I know, because nearly everyone in my family is an immigrant.

One of the things I looked up had to do with international math and science scores. Curiously, math and science in ALL English-speaking nations is lower than scores in other advanced nations. Now, it could be that English-speaking nations as a group really just suck at education, but part of it could be that we're so buy learning "I" before "e", except after "c" or when sounding like "a" as in neighbor and weigh that we don't have as much time for anything else.

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 5:03 PM

Already most computers already default to American spelling, let's go one step further and having phonetic spelling that we wont be able to work out unless we all default to American accents.

Now that's what I call cultural imperialism.

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:20 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oddly enough, my computer at work - Microsoft of course - corrects my bad American spelling to its good British spelling. It gives me a giggle every time.

I know I've pointed it out before, but when it comes to pronunciation, there's a standard set of phonetic characters in every dictionary. It would be interesting to take an American dictionary, and a British dictionary, and compare the phonetic spellings between them. Maybe when I retire ...

But when it comes to Asian scores v English-speaking scores - MOST European languages NOT English are phonetic AFAIK. I wonder how the French, or German scores compare with Asian. Also, do the Chinese and Japanese still learn ideograms, or do they use modified English lettering? I can't think of anything less phonetic than an ideogram. If they're still in use, then I think that eliminates non-phonetic spelling as the cause of score differences.

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:41 PM

rezident owtsidr

Youv probably posted that befor, MAGON. And I've seen it many timez elswhere.

And I'v probably explained befor that Nooalf duznt specify a particular spelling for each word, just a sound for each letter, so It can spell your dialect az well az American English.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 7:14 PM

rezident owtsidr

I believe thats true, SIGNYM. While English language students are still struggling with learning literacy, kidz in Italy, Germany etc. can already read their math & science books.

I think its more than that. They are also being instilled with the idea that thingz dont hav to make sense or be efficient.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But when it comes to Asian scores v English-speaking scores - MOST European languages NOT English are phonetic AFAIK. I wonder how the French, or German scores compare with Asian.

French iz definitely not a good example uv fonetic! But, even tho it looks worse than English, they at least claim that all their letter clusterz alwayz make the same sound, making it 1 level less mixed up.

Quote:

Also, do the Chinese and Japanese still learn ideograms, or do they use modified English lettering? I can't think of anything less phonetic than an ideogram. If they're still in use, then I think that eliminates non-phonetic spelling as the cause of score differences.

The Japanese hav 3 different spelling systemz, and they arent alerjik to reform. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_script_reform

I believe the Japanese score higher than everybody else for 2 reazonz:
1. They are smarter.
2. They work harder. Its part uv their culture.

The Chineze score better by uzing the ancient art uv cheating. They restrict their test scorez to the best students in the best skoolz.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 7:36 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Interesting post. Any data you can link to support your statements?

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:

And I'v probably explained befor that Nooalf duznt specify a particular spelling for each word, just a sound for each letter, so It can spell your dialect az well az American English.

So if people spell the way they pronounce, wont that cause problems in understanding one another internationally>

People struggle to understand others accents. For example, an American might struggle to understand mine, and I struggle to understand a Glaswegian or some Irish, Northern English accents.

Does that mean that non english speakers write words with their own accents?

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:10 PM

rezident owtsidr

They can, but they will probably know the difference.

I believe pretty much everybody can understand the major American and British dialects kuz they are the bulk uv all the media flooding the world with English. Kidz learning how to read & rite who liv in little townz with weird dialects will be very good at riting foneticly.

1KIKI, Most uv the statements are based on general info, so Wiki can verify them.

About the cheating: http://world.time.com/2013/12/04/china-is-cheating-the-world-student-r
ankings-system/

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
They can, but they will probably know the difference.

I believe pretty much everybody can understand the major American and British dialects kuz they are the bulk uv all the media flooding the world with English. Kidz learning how to read & rite who liv in little townz with weird dialects will be very good at riting foneticly.

I dont live somewhere that has major American or British accent. Does that mean my writing will be unintelligible to the wider english speaking community, or do I have to write in a dialect that is not my own to be understood?

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Monday, January 20, 2014 12:00 AM

rezident owtsidr

Maybe. Dependz how far off your dialect iz.

My point iz that evn if sumwunz local dialect iz so far off that its effectivly a different language, the saturation uv media in American broadcast standard in English speaking countryz iz so hi that you'd hav to be living in a cave to not understand it.

I'v met people who I coudnt understand 1 word from, yet they understood me.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, January 20, 2014 1:34 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, you're willing to let people be completely unable to communicate with the larger world because they both speak AND WRITE a language uninterpretable by others.
All because you're convinced you're brilliant and your obsession is brilliant.

That's very big of you. Not.

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Monday, January 20, 2014 3:59 AM

So Id have to write in standardised american dialect to communicate globally. That sucks.

I don't know how many accents you've actually encountered in real life, but they vary significantly. Depending on where people live, seems to be able to determine what they can understand.

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Monday, January 20, 2014 8:38 AM

rezident owtsidr

I understood most uv the Gourdy and about haf the Scottish gang punk.

I'v been to Newcastle and had no trouble understanding anybody when they were talking to me. But wen they talked to each other they often went full speed completely in their dialect and it wuz hard to follow.

You are both intentionally miskarakterizing the situation. Like relijus zealots protesting agenst teknolojy.

Fear uv chanje.

I suppoze you didnt bother looking it up at Time.com.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, January 20, 2014 11:41 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"My point iz that evn if sumwunz local dialect iz so far off that its effectivly a different language, the saturation uv media in American broadcast standard in English speaking countryz iz so hi that you'd hav to be living in a cave to not understand it.

I'v met people who I coudnt understand 1 word from, yet they understood me."

Is this not your post?

1) a group of people effectively speaking a different language (local dialect iz so far off that its effectivly a different language)
2) I've met people who I couldn't understand 1 word from

So here we have a group of people whose dialect is SO DIFFERENT many people can't understand them. But when they WRITE the STANDARD written language, magically, they can be widely understood. You propose that they give up the standard written language, and turn their unintelligible spoken language into an unintelligible written one as well.

If their spoken dialect can't be understood, and their written dialect can't be understood either, how do you propose that these people communicate with the larger world?

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Monday, January 20, 2014 3:16 PM

Exactly.

The issue is English was phonetic, its just that people spoke differently 100's of years ago.

The K in knive and knight was actually used. 'Kniggit'

English is spoken in vastly different ways all over the world, by people who use it as their first and second language. It has naturally evolved, but the spelling stays the same.

In principle I'm not against some changes being made to standard ENglish spelling so that its somewhat easier. I'm actually not as pernicketty as some around spelling and grammar and I do see that written language needs to evolve just as verbal language itself evolves.

I just don't like your idea of a non standardized phonetically based written language. Written language doesnt have to be phonetic, and there is some advantage in it not being so. Mandarin for example does not reflect either the phonetics or the actual spoken language, and for that reason despite what dialect (not accent) someone speaks in China, they can read the language.

Like 1,2,3,4 etc don't reflect language, but ideas.

I can also see that American phonetics would dominate, something else I object too. You have stated several times that American English is the lingua franca of accents, but that doesn't stop much of the world from not using that kind of accent. You have no answer to the question about how other people from different areas would communicate with Americans, who by reputation have a low tolerance or poor ear for understanding other accents. Which would mean you'd have Glasgow man or Cork man or South African man writing English in an American phonetic manner, something that defeats the purpose of phonetic writing as we may as well keep writing in Middle English phonetics, which is pretty much what we do now.

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Monday, January 20, 2014 4:43 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So here we have a group of people whose dialect is SO DIFFERENT many people can't understand them.

But they can understand the major dialects. And they know their dialect iz unintellijable to most people.

If they know Nooalf spelling, they can rite in wun uv the major dialects if they want everybody to understand them. If they want to get a message to sumwun with their dialect that they dont care or dont want anybody outside their group to understand, they can rite it in their dialect.

Quote:
But when they WRITE the STANDARD written language, magically, they can be widely understood.

Your mistake iz believing that the ritten word haz to hav no relation to the spoken word in order for this majik to work. A fonetic spelling system duz not preclude a standard spelling.

Another flaw in your lojik iz thinking that there iz no advantaj to a direct fonetic relation between speech & riting. The major advantajez are:

1. Way eazier to learn to read & rite.
2. More efficient to rite and read.
3. Boosts vocabulary aqcuizition efficiency.
4. Continuously promotes lojik on a fundamental level.
5. Enablez riting in dialects, accents, forin languajez, invented languajez.
Especially handy for sifi riterz.

The worst I've heard were 2 co-workerz that I believe were from the Louisiana Bayou swamp land. They pronounced common wordz very differently, hav bunchez uv their own wordz and many odd frazez and expressionz. (I'll try to find sum samplz later)

If wun uv theze backwater Louisiana rubez wuz watching an episode uv Frazier and didnt know wut BRjWo ment, he coud rite it down and look it up later (if there wuz a Nooalf dictionary), or text hiz college graduate buddy and ask.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, January 20, 2014 5:12 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Doesn't preclude standard spelling?

Isn't this what you think of standard spelling?

I could quote a whole lot more of that exact opinion about standard spelling YOU POSTED.

So, got any answers that don't involve you having to change your claims?

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Monday, January 20, 2014 5:32 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The issue is English was phonetic, its just that people spoke differently 100's of years ago.

Not that simple. Therez a great book on the history uv English you shoud read.
http://www.amazon.com/Story-English-Third-Revised/dp/0142002313/ref=sr
_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1390255293&sr=1-1&keywords=the+story+of+english

Quote:
I do see that written language needs to evolve just as verbal language itself evolves.

Thats the whole problem rite there! The spelling got fossilized 2 to 3 centuryz ago!

Quote:
Mandarin for example does not reflect either the phonetics or the actual spoken language, and for that reason despite what dialect (not accent) someone speaks in China, they can read the language.

I read sumthing about a court advizor segjesting to the emporor that a fonetic system woud boost literacy in China - this wuz in sum middle age dynasty. The advizor wuz executed. The emporor realized that literacy iz power and that hiz power relied on the weakness uv the general population.

Do you know Chineze?

Quote:
Like 1,2,3,4 etc don't reflect language, but ideas.

I get wut your saying! Thats wun uv the thingz nobody gets about my name till I explain it. Its not 'sevenfivethree', its 753. Thus it will be siete cinco tres in Spanish, sieben fünf drei in German, etc.

But you are making the same lojik error 1KIKI made above. The number symbolz can reprezent both the spoken word and the consept. Spelling = consept = pronunciation. Wut you are segjesting iz that if spelling = pronunciation, it cant = consept.

Quote:
I can also see that American phonetics would dominate, something else I object too.

You have an inkling uv how the rest uv the world feelz about English.

I don't think you hav anything to worry about. The BBC iz available everywhere and your musicianz, moviez and TV showz are doing a brisk international bizness.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, January 20, 2014 7:01 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Way to avoid the questions, dood.

If spelling = phonetics then phonetics = spelling. So, as mentioned a few times already, people with different phonetics will spell things differently, apparently as a result of the bad cement in their thinking dissolving. If they spell their dialect, how will people who don't understand their dialect understand their writings?

I don't think I could make this question any simpler.

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Monday, January 20, 2014 7:52 PM

MAL4PREZ

Jesus, is this thread still happening?

*facepalm*

Noalf, your "language" and the ensuing discussion make you come off like a pre-teen with a learning disorder. I mean no offense to pre-teens with learning disorders. Actually, they are often more comprehensible than your posts.

Language is not about efficiency, because humans are not machines. Language is about communicating all the varied traits and feelings and thoughts and cultural experiences of human beings. You might want to think about that.

And damn are you not getting it about dialects and accents. Get out some. Not everyone in the universe talks like you.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Tuesday, January 21, 2014 3:14 AM