Mass shooting at Elementary School by Storymark

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

What a wretched, horrific event. It makes me sick to my stomach. I feel for the families and those directly affected by this terrible slaying.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 10:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

They're calling this the "second deadliest scool shooting in America" after Columbine...until the next one comes along, obviously. So one might have cause to wonder

Quote:
Why does America lead the world in school shootings?

School shootings are far more frequent in America than in other countries. School is a safe place - until the unspeakable happens. Then, even though the risks are low, it is fair to ask, why does this still happen? Why here, in America?

Let's be clear. There is no single, certain answer to these questions. The possible factors include failure by classmates, parents and school officials to see the warning signs; bullying and revenge; serious mental illness; violent role models; drugs; access to guns, and a culture that condones extremism.

America has its share of these factors, but which are significant and which are more prevalent here than across the Atlantic?

Warning signs

Students do not become mass killers overnight. They nurse their fantasies and they leak evidence. Insults, threats and plans are posted on websites. Classmates often know when a student is ready to strike back. Parents hear rumblings and have accurate gut sensations.

Within our country there are communities and neighborhoods and school districts that are relatively cohesive, vigilant and able to discuss warning signs of danger. There are some communities that are not as well integrated. They must be coached and helped.

After Columbine and Virginia Tech and other notorious school shootings, new programs to share information were developed and several plots were nipped in the bud. This evolution of information sharing occurs in other countries, but it is difficult to measure, nation to nation, who is ahead and who is behind. I see no proof that America is losing this race to improve detection of warning signs.

Bullying and revenge

We have too many bullies and too many youngsters at the mercy of bullies. But we also have a growing system of anti-bullying school programs. Despite rumors to the contrary, the Columbine killers were not bullied. There is no evidence that America, compared to other nations, has more bullies, more bullying, more victimization, and more victims who are ticking time bombs, hatching plots of lethal vengeance.

When boys are bullied they may fantasize about revenge. To dream of turning the tables on a bully is common to all eras, most cultures, and the source of drama, film and literature from the Elizabethan stage to the spaghetti Western. But whether a slowly evolving fantasy of mass murder is a product of mental illness, of bullying or of other sources, there are usually signs along the way.

Major mental illness

We do not have more major mental illness than most other countries. But we may be less caring of our mentally ill. Back in the Kennedy era, we launched community mental health programs to care for people with schizophrenia and similarly severe disorders, including depression. We wanted treatment available close to home, with compassionate supervision and with proper medication.

The program was never fully funded and our American system of care leaves much to be desired. The most serious mental illnesses, schizophrenia and depression, often become overt in adolescence. A boy who is smart enough to get into a good college becomes deluded, obsessed, strange, scary - and he gets rejected, isolated and stuck in a fantasy world. Those fantasies can become lethal. These forms of mental illness are seldom the source of homicide (far more often they torment and demoralize the disturbed individual). We do not have a sophisticated system of care and protection.

Violent role models

Violent role models, on the street, in the cinema, in the news, have been with us for as long as I recall, and are not limited to America. But other parts of the world, such as Northern Ireland, the Balkans, the children's armies of Africa, the terrorist camps of the Middle East, have their violent role models.

Drugs

We do have drugs and a drug culture and aspects of this problem are more severe here than in many other parts of the world. Crime is connected to the drug trade and this crime can spill into the school. But the type of school shooting that occurs in the suburb is seldom connected to this urban issue.

Access to guns

Access to guns is a significant factor in American school shootings. If kids could not and did not bring guns to school, we wouldn't have Columbine, Virginia Tech or Chardon, Ohio. There have been crimes with knives and bats and fists. But school shootings are gun crimes. Kids with guns kill kids at school.

I do not think America is an extremist nation, compared to other nations with bloody histories and despotic leaders. True, we have polarized political speech, and some of that speech is about access to guns. But the reason we have an American school shooting problem that exceeds other nations has to do with access to loaded weapons by kids who should not have that access.

I'm not offering a gun control solution. But any serious attempt to prevent school shooting will have to attack the problem by determining who should not be armed, and preventing dangerous boys from bringing guns to school. Excerpts from http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/28/why-does-america-le
ad-the-world-in-school-shootings/?iid=article_sidebar

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 10:38 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Just as long as nobody suggests, ever, in any way, that this could POSSIBLY have anything to do with any kind of "gun problem" in this country. Because we just can't have that kind of talk, no sirree, no how, no way. If there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that guns have never played any part in any of these mass killings.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 10:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
If kids could not and did not bring guns to school, we wouldn't have Columbine, Virginia Tech or Chardon, Ohio. There have been crimes with knives and bats and fists. But school shootings are gun crimes. Kids with guns kill kids at school.

Hello,

I can't say for certain, but early reports keep referring to the shooter as a 'man.' This suggests to me an adult. If this turns out to be true, then this is not a case of kids getting guns and going on a rampage.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 11:48 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Doesn't get worse than this. Absolutely horrendous. Killing little kids. I can't believe it. Could have been my grandkids. Schools here in Florida have guards or police, but I don't know if even that could have stopped this slaughter. What is going on here?!

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Friday, December 14, 2012 12:19 PM

Anthony, I have a question. Bear with me. It won't seem like it makes any sense, but walk with me a bit.

Was DWI ever a problem in this country?

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Friday, December 14, 2012 12:33 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Anthony, I have a question. Bear with me. It won't seem like it makes any sense, but walk with me a bit.

Was DWI ever a problem in this country?

Hello,

You mean Driving While Intoxicated? Yes. It's a continuing concern. We used to call it DUI when I was younger.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 12:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Oh no!!!!!

Little kids? Why??????????

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Friday, December 14, 2012 12:53 PM

Good god. The latest I hear - this was a mentally disturbed man. Apparently, rather than treatment, rather than health care, he got guns.

Welcome to America.

From http://newtown.patch.com/articles/reports-of-shooting-at-sandy-hook-el
ementary-school

The man identified in media reports Friday as the shooter in the one of the deadliest school shootings in American history has told friends that he thinks his developmentally disabled brother may have committed the crime, Patch has learned.

A close friend of Ryan Lanza who would not be identified told Patch that he spoke to Lanza as Lanza made his way home from work to Hoboken. Lanza also took to his Facebook page to rail against CNN naming him as the suspect in the shooting in Newtown, Conn.

“I’m on the bus home now, it wasn’t me,” Lanza wrote.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 1:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

These things make the world a little nastier every time they happen. I remember after the Dunblane shooting in Scotland, kindergartens and creches all had coded security put in.

Each time an atrocity happens, preventions are put in which make life more unpleasant.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 1:15 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
These things make the world a little nastier every time they happen. I remember after the Dunblane shooting in Scotland, kindergartens and creches all had coded security put in.

Each time an atrocity happens, preventions are put in which make life more unpleasant.

Hello,

This has been my observation as well. When I was a kid, there were no school cops. There were no metal detectors. No visible security measures of any kind.

It was just folk. Teaching and learning.

I lament that kids today don't have that experience.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 2:32 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I would ask "How many of these do we have to have before we do something about gun control--at least about semi-automatic weapons?", but I already know the gun bunnies will never allow it, and the NRA's power and money will keep ANY single thing from being done to limit ANYTHING having to do with guns.

We have truly become a sick, sick society.

Gawd help those people. Children...jezus...

Gun deaths by the age group of the killer are down, almost half, from 1993 to 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homoffendersbyage.svg

Make of that what you will.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Anthony, I have a question. Bear with me. It won't seem like it makes any sense, but walk with me a bit.

Was DWI ever a problem in this country?

Hello,

You mean Driving While Intoxicated? Yes. It's a continuing concern. We used to call it DUI when I was younger.

Okay. We called it DWI here when I was younger, but same basic thing. Driving While Intoxicated, Driving Under the Influence, Driving While Impaired...

When we decided as a nation, or as a state, or as a community, that it was a problem, how did we address it?

By saying "Now isn't the time" every time a drunk driver killed a family of 7, or by addressing the problem? When we saw the problem, did we ignore it, or did we get agressive about addressing it through the laws, regulations, and legal requirements available to us?

I have heard all my life that "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"; "If guns are outlawed, people will still kill each other." Okay. If crime is outlawed, only criminals will break the law. It's a ridiculous argument, because it pretends that if something will still exist, then nothing you can do will help, so we mustn't do anything.

And I'm tired of that argument.

Should pedophilia be a crime? If so, why? If not, why not? It's illegal now, and people still fuck children, right? So it does no good to outlaw it, and it protects nobody, so why bother, right? Same with cocaine, heroin, murder, burglary, armed robbery. If it seems absurd, then that's intentional, because it has become an absurd argument.

I think maybe we need to have the discussion. If we keep putting it off until there's a day without anyone killed with a gun in this country, there will be a whole lot more than 20 dead children's blood on our collective hands.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 2:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Good god. The latest I hear - this was a mentally disturbed man. Apparently, rather than treatment, rather than health care, he got guns.

Welcome to America.

Guns are so much cheaper and easier to get than health care and treatment in this country, and generally seen as less of a social stigma than mental illness.

Ain't America grand?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 2:47 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I think maybe we need to have the discussion.

Hello,

What do you propose to do?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 2:51 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Guns are so much cheaper and easier to get than health care and treatment in this country, and generally seen as less of a social stigma than mental illness.

Hello,

Are you saying that having a gun should be a social stigma?

As for these particular guns, whoever bought them made a significant investment. I'd say at least 2k and possibly as much as 3k were spent on the set. I'd have expected cheaper brands.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, December 14, 2012 3:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
I think maybe we need to have the discussion.

Hello,

What do you propose to do?

--Anthony

Well, how did we begin to cut down on DUI deaths? By strengthening laws, aggressive enforcement, raising legal age for drinking, lowering tolerance, and upping insurance requirements.

So we can address the problem. We CAN have regulations that don't infringe your rights to own a gun. The Second Amendment calls for "a well regulated militia". Let's start regulating. We can require liability insurance for every gun you own. You're still allowed to own your guns; you haven't been infringed upon.

Insurance rates would vary, of course, based on the type of gun, your age, location, criminal background, number of children in your house, etc. Hey, sports cars cost more to insure than station wagons, right?

Semi-automatic short-barreled rifles and handguns with large-capacity magazines would be more costly to insure than revolvers or bolt-action rifles or muzzle-loaders, for instance.

Do you have to insure your guns? Nope. You'll only be required to show your proof of insurance when you want to buy ammo, go to the range, take your gun(s) with you anywhere, etc.

Discuss among yourselves.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Guns are so much cheaper and easier to get than health care and treatment in this country, and generally seen as less of a social stigma than mental illness.

Hello,

Are you saying that having a gun should be a social stigma?

I say that the opportunity to mass murder children by delivering 100+ bullets in a short time should be frowned upon rather than defended as a basic 2nd amendment right. (That ain't no fucking well regulated militia!)

I also say that a struggling human being walking into a mental health facility should get a pat on the back and public assistance rather than condemnation, disgust, and a future life lived a cardboard box in an alley.

How about you?

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Guns are so much cheaper and easier to get than health care and treatment in this country, and generally seen as less of a social stigma than mental illness.

Hello,

Are you saying that having a gun should be a social stigma?

No more than seeking help with mental illness should be.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

So we can address the problem. We CAN have regulations that don't infringe your rights to own a gun. The Second Amendment calls for "a well regulated militia". Let's start regulating.

Hello,

We probably disagree on the meaning of the second amendment, but it's not necessary to discuss that in order to come to a reasonable accommodation.

Quote:
We can require liability insurance for every gun you own. You're still allowed to own your guns; you haven't been infringed upon.

Insurance rates would vary, of course, based on the type of gun, your age, location, criminal background, number of children in your house, etc. Hey, sports cars cost more to insure than station wagons, right? Semi-automatic short-barreled rifles and handguns with large-capacity magazines would be more costly to insure than revolvers or bolt-action rifles or muzzle-loaders, for instance.

Do you have to insure your guns? Nope. You'll only be required to show your proof of insurance when you want to buy ammo, go to the range, take your gun(s) with you anywhere, etc.

I wonder if we would subsidize the cost of this insurance for people living at or near poverty, so as not to deprive them of their rights?

I also wonder if the completion of competence and safety courses could allow the insurance requirement to be waived or for rates to be reduced? Do you get a safe shooting deduction?

Would there be any control or cap on insurance fees? Or would the insurance requirement be a way to clandestinely outlaw guns for the everyman, leaving only the richest Americans capable of affording the luxury?

I also don't favor having to carry proof of insurance everywhere. It's probably possible to check on insurance status in a less intrusive way.

Quote:
I say that the opportunity to mass murder children by delivering 100+ bullets in a short time should be frowned upon rather than defended as a basic 2nd amendment right.

What sort of firing rate would you deem acceptable?

Quote:
I also say that a struggling human being walking into a mental health facility should get a pat on the back and public assistance rather than condemnation, disgust, and a future life lived a cardboard box in an alley.

I agree with this.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
I say that the opportunity to mass murder children by delivering 100+ bullets in a short time should be frowned upon rather than defended as a basic 2nd amendment right.

What sort of firing rate would you deem acceptable?

For hunting, more than 2 bullets is not needed, imho. In terms of self defense, 5 would do, though I'm willing to be argued up to 10. There is no sane reason a person needs to be packing more ready-to-fire ammo than that.

Fuck the NRA. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible.

Quote:
Quote:
I also say that a struggling human being walking into a mental health facility should get a pat on the back and public assistance rather than condemnation, disgust, and a future life lived a cardboard box in an alley.

I agree with this.

I thought you might.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Fuck the NRA. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible.

What'd the NRA have to do w/ this tragedy ?

Nothing. To the contrary, much of what the NRA stands for would have likely HELPED keep this from even happening.

Your anger is greatly misplaced.

Incredibly so.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
For hunting, more than 2 bullets is not needed, imho. In terms of self defense, 5 would do, though I'm willing to be argued up to 10. There is no sane reason a person needs to be packing more ready-to-fire ammo than that.

Fuck the NRA. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible.

Hello,

Are you proposing limits on what a gun can hold, or what a person can carry on their person?

I would oppose limits of 2 for rifles, 5 for handguns. It would outlaw the majority of guns manufactured since the late 19th century. However, I might consider some higher limitation if the constabulary shared such limitations.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

This has been my observation as well. When I was a kid, there were no school cops. There were no metal detectors. No visible security measures of any kind.

It was just folk. Teaching and learning.

I lament that kids today don't have that experience.

--Anthony

Do all schools have cops, metal detectors etc in the US? Thankfully we don't have that here and I intend to do my damndest to make sure we never have to do so.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nothing. To the contrary, much of what the NRA stands for would have likely HELPED keep this from even happening.
"

Too obvious, tool. Try again.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:47 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

This has been my observation as well. When I was a kid, there were no school cops. There were no metal detectors. No visible security measures of any kind.

It was just folk. Teaching and learning.

I lament that kids today don't have that experience.

--Anthony

Do all schools have cops, metal detectors etc in the US? Thankfully we don't have that here and I intend to do my damndest to make sure we never have to do so.

Hello,

Everywhere I have lived since becoming an adult has adopted such security measures for their schools. I do not know what rural areas might be like. I have always lived in big cities.

It makes me sad to see such things.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
For hunting, more than 2 bullets is not needed, imho. In terms of self defense, 5 would do, though I'm willing to be argued up to 10. There is no sane reason a person needs to be packing more ready-to-fire ammo than that.

Fuck the NRA. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible.

Hello,

Are you proposing limits on what a gun can hold, or what a person can carry on their person?

I've answered enough questions. Your turn.

Quote:

I would oppose limits of 2 for rifles, 5 for handguns. It would outlaw the majority of guns manufactured since the late 19th century. However, I might consider some higher limitation if the constabulary shared such limitations.

So how would you set limits? Is it about what best protects children from crazies, or what allows you to own pretty toys?

Yes, I admit that that is a loaded question. Look at what happened today, and what's been happening for some time in America, and what America does differently than other countries.

Fucking loaded questions apply today.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:50 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Didn't King Obama sign a treaty with United Nations Corporation this week, to ban all guns in the hands of the sheeple?

Just stage a couple of mass shootings in Victim Disarmament Zones under Operations Fast & Furious, Gladio and Northwoods and the sheeple will surely forget.

When the communists take over they always kill the intellectuals first. Which is why school teachers and adult students must never be allowed to use guns for self defense.

Google Bath School Disaster that dwarfs this little shooting in CT by a factor of 2 or 3, where a member of the school board wired the entire school for controlled demolition by dynomite, then shot the survivors before blowing himself up as a suicide bomber in 1927.

King Obama will use this shooting to illegally ban all semiautos by executive fiat, and the civil war will begin. Never mind it was the family of a school teacher at the same school who allegedly did all these shootings in CT.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:53 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
So how would you set limits? Is it about what best protects children from crazies, or what allows you to own pretty toys?

Yes, I admit that that is a loaded question. Look at what happened today, and what's been happening for some time in America, and what America does differently than other countries.

Fucking loaded questions apply today.

Hello,

I would let the constabulary set the limits. They are in the profession of dealing with criminals, so presumably they know best what is necessary and what is overkill. Whatever they deem sufficient to deal with criminals is sufficient for me to deal with criminals.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:55 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nothing. To the contrary, much of what the NRA stands for would have likely HELPED keep this from even happening.
"

Too obvious, tool. Try again.

what's the point? You lack the intellectual honesty or capacity to answer a simple question.

From reading your other posts, you're content on spewing vulgarities and stamping your feet, and nothing more.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:

So we can address the problem. We CAN have regulations that don't infringe your rights to own a gun. The Second Amendment calls for "a well regulated militia". Let's start regulating.

Hello,

We probably disagree on the meaning of the second amendment, but it's not necessary to discuss that in order to come to a reasonable accommodation.

Quote:
We can require liability insurance for every gun you own. You're still allowed to own your guns; you haven't been infringed upon.

Insurance rates would vary, of course, based on the type of gun, your age, location, criminal background, number of children in your house, etc. Hey, sports cars cost more to insure than station wagons, right? Semi-automatic short-barreled rifles and handguns with large-capacity magazines would be more costly to insure than revolvers or bolt-action rifles or muzzle-loaders, for instance.

Do you have to insure your guns? Nope. You'll only be required to show your proof of insurance when you want to buy ammo, go to the range, take your gun(s) with you anywhere, etc.

I wonder if we would subsidize the cost of this insurance for people living at or near poverty, so as not to deprive them of their rights?

To the same extent that such rates are subsidized for the poor with regards to auto insurance now? Or to the same extent that we subsidize the cost of firearms for the poor? Are guns free? Can you have any gun you'd like, with no cost to you at all? Or have the very best guns been priced out of your reach? Have your rights to own such guns been infringed by their price?

Quote:

I also wonder if the completion of competence and safety courses could allow the insurance requirement to be waived or for rates to be reduced? Do you get a safe shooting deduction?

In a free market, of course. Some insurance company will step in offering low-cost coverage with low deductibles.

Quote:

Would there be any control or cap on insurance fees? Or would the insurance requirement be a way to clandestinely outlaw guns for the everyman, leaving only the richest Americans capable of affording the luxury?

Again, are there currently any controls on such things?

Quote:

I also don't favor having to carry proof of insurance everywhere. It's probably possible to check on insurance status in a less intrusive way.

It is, but I don't really see your objection. I've had to carry such proof on my person or in my car for well over 20 years, and I can't say it's really put me out. It's a small piece of paper, less than half a page, easily folded and put in a wallet. But yes, there are ways to check on your status in other ways, but I'm not sure you'd really find them "less intrusive" - in Texas, for instance, we now have the ability for the police to use automatic license plate scanners. They're car-mounted, and scan hundreds of plates a minute, as the police pass you, or you pass them, and they're tied in with a statewide database which will tell the police if your car is currently insured. I've little doubt that such a system could be implemented with RF chips implanted in people, but as I've said, that might not qualify as "less intrusive" in your eyes. Personally, I think I'd rather carry the paper.

Quote:

Quote:
I say that the opportunity to mass murder children by delivering 100+ bullets in a short time should be frowned upon rather than defended as a basic 2nd amendment right.

What sort of firing rate would you deem acceptable?

Bolt action was fast enough for Oswald, right?

Quote:

Quote:
I also say that a struggling human being walking into a mental health facility should get a pat on the back and public assistance rather than condemnation, disgust, and a future life lived a cardboard box in an alley.

I agree with this.

I had a feeling you would as well.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

This has been my observation as well. When I was a kid, there were no school cops. There were no metal detectors. No visible security measures of any kind.

It was just folk. Teaching and learning.

I lament that kids today don't have that experience.

--Anthony

Do all schools have cops, metal detectors etc in the US? Thankfully we don't have that here and I intend to do my damndest to make sure we never have to do so.

My high school in 1980 had one cop, unarmed. It also was common to see gun racks in pickup trucks in the student parking lot, with rifles in them. I can't recall any shootings at school.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nothing. To the contrary, much of what the NRA stands for would have likely HELPED keep this from even happening.
"

Too obvious, tool. Try again.

what's the point? You lack the intellectual honest or capacity to answer a simple question.

Weaker than your first attempt. What else you got, tool?

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:03 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
It is unlawful to possess a firearm on public or private elementary or secondary school property. This prohibition shall not apply to a person with a firearm carrying permit, with permission from school officials, or while traversing school property with an unloaded firearm for the purpose of gaining access to lands open to hunting or for other lawful purposes, provided entry is not prohibited by school officials.

http://www.usacarry.com/connecticut_concealed_carry_permit_information
.html

The law in CT allows teachers to carry guns in schools, but Libtard Commie school admins with $400,000 salaries said NO.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Mal4Prez - As I said, there's no discussing with a child as yourself on such matters. Keep posting stick figures for your reply. It's representative of how simplistic a person you truly are.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:09 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
To the same extent that such rates are subsidized for the poor with regards to auto insurance now?

Hello,

Driving a car is not a right, or so I've been told. The ability to own weapons for self defense goes beyond the ability to drive to my mind.

Quote:

Or to the same extent that we subsidize the cost of firearms for the poor? Are guns free? Can you have any gun you'd like, with no cost to you at all? Or have the very best guns been priced out of your reach? Have your rights to own such guns been infringed by their price?

Quote:
Again, are there currently any controls on such things?

I wouldn't mind providing every poor person with a free self-defense weapon, actually. But there are very inexpensive and reliable firearms available. Insurance is an ongoing, endless expense that will eventually surpass the value of the firearm, and could easily be used to subtract a right from poor people. If we are to treat ownership as a right, care must be taken not to make it a right exclusive to the upper classes.

Quote:
Personally, I think I'd rather carry the paper.

I think existing identification should be sufficient. I do not want to carry additional identification on my person beyond what I currently do.

Quote:
Bolt action was fast enough for Oswald, right?

Yes, but he was trying to assassinate someone, not defend himself. I prefer a more fluid action for defense purposes.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:10 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's representative of how simplistic a person you truly are.

Hello,

Actually, I think the representation is meant to depict you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
So how would you set limits? Is it about what best protects children from crazies, or what allows you to own pretty toys?

Yes, I admit that that is a loaded question. Look at what happened today, and what's been happening for some time in America, and what America does differently than other countries.

Fucking loaded questions apply today.

Hello,

I would let the constabulary set the limits. They are in the profession of dealing with criminals, so presumably they know best what is necessary and what is overkill. Whatever they deem sufficient to deal with criminals is sufficient for me to deal with criminals.

--Anthony

Bullshit. Let's just wait from Frem to show up and share his opinion of those drawn to the "constabulary" and their ability to make decisions that lead to social peace and harmony. *insert BIG eyeroll*

Not that I distrust all peace-keepers. There are some damn fine ones out there. But it is shear stupidity to trust those who live their lives in violence to lead us to a more peaceful way. Or haven't you been paying attention?

BTW, don't think I haven't noticed your total cop-out. You asked my opinion, I gave it, and when I turned the tables you bailed and called on the authorities to tell you what to do? Come on, Anthony, you're better than that. You're more libertarian than that, anyway.

ETA: notice how I ignore the troll? He's a bit thick, so I wanted to point it out so he'd be sure to see what's happening here.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
My high school in 1980 had one cop, unarmed. It also was common to see gun racks in pickup trucks in the student parking lot, with rifles in them. I can't recall any shootings at school.

Hello,

You can go back some years and find that it was fairly easy for kids to get their hands on a gun. And it was unheard of to see these kinds of outrages. Even when we had gangsters running rampant with fully automatic Tommy guns, they had the good sense and sensibility not to mow down schoolchildren on purpose.

Something more is afoot. Something has made us sicker.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:15 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

America's deadliest school violence? Not Columbine, but Bath, Mich., in 1927

The Bath School disaster of 1927 remains the deadliest killing spree at a school in America

Sometimes it feels like the mass violence of our modern age is something devastatingly new for America. History shows that's not the case.

In 1927, a single man's outbreak of violence in a small Michigan town took the lives of 45 people, including 38 children. The Bath School Disaster became the nation's deadliest killing spree at a school, and it still holds that distinction today.

A few years ago, Chicago author Arnie Bernstein went to Bath Township, Mich., near Lansing, to tell the story of the day that a local farmer and school board member – for reasons that are still unclear – used dynamite to destroy the town's school and kill many of its inhabitants. While the rest of the country promptly forgot about the tragedy – one of the century's biggest news events distracted the nation shortly after it happened – he discovered that the scars remain.

Henry David Thoreau: 12 quotes on his birthday

But there was more to find than heartache.

In an interview this week, Bernstein, author of 2009's "Bath Massacre: America's First School Bombing," describes a community's strength and the silent generation that finally spoke out when he came calling.

As another city goes through a familiar cycle of shock and grief, Bernstein's words offer a glimpse of the humanity that the worst kinds of horror cannot destroy.

Q: How was the reaction to this tragedy different than what we're seeing in Aurora?

A: While the people of Bath weren't any different than the people of our times, it was a different time, a different era. These days, we have better coping mechanisms. We have counselors and all kinds of different support systems.

Back then, they didn't talk about it, period. They were farmers, and they had to go back to work. Your cow couldn't take a day off for a tragedy.

And there wasn't a media frenzy like today. The media came in and left. Three days after it happened, Lindbergh took off and flew to Paris, and that part of it was over.

When I came in, it had been eight decades, and nobody had talked about it. It was just this scar on the land.

Q: Amazingly, you talked to survivors of the school bombing who are now in their 90s and 100s. What did they say?

A: One woman who's 99 now was telling me the most graphic details about how her seven-year-old brother was killed. I was worried about upsetting her and told her she didn't have to talk about all this. She said, "No, people have to know. I'm not going to be around forever. I want people to know what happened."

Q: What can we learn from Bath Township?

A: One lesson is that you cannot stop someone who's determined to do something like this, who doesn't have that switch in their head that says to not do it. You cannot stop them any more than you can stop an iceberg.

But out of that horror, out of the one or two people who commit these kinds of crimes, comes the good, the tremendous good that you see in the wake of these things. Our humanity comes through in the face of evil and the inexplicable.

The survivors and their children are some of the most decent people I've ever known in my life, and they grew out of this.

Q: Will this part of Bath's history ever fade?

A: This cannot go away and never will, even after these people die. It's always part of who they are in Bath. But they remain a quintessential small Midwest town America: nice, kind, and good Christians in the absolute greatest sense.

Q: What has writing the story of this town meant for you?

A: One day when I was walking through the town cemetery, I realized I knew everybody: This guy was a rescuer, this child was killed, here was someone's wife who made sandwiches for the men.

I saw many names on the headstones with no death dates. These people are still alive. Bath was where they were born and raised, and it's where they'll die.

When my life is over, I think this will probably the best thing I've done in my life, bringing this town some healing, helping people talk about it and bringing the community together.

It's been 80 years, but it's still fresh in mind. It's yesterday. But out of this came good and decency – people caring for strangers and looking out for one another.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2012/0724/America-s-d
eadliest-school-violence-Not-Columbine-but-Bath-Mich.-in-1927

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bauerle/disaster.htm

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Actually, I think the representation is meant to depict you.

How do you figure ? I asked a simple, direct, and relevant question to the comment Mal4 made. Instead of explaining or clarifying his comment, he resorted in 1, and then another childish ad hominem.

My guess is he'll toss in another, as I'm typing this, and continue to ignore the issue, entirely.

Also, I can't help but notice that no one has commented on the facts I posted, on gun homicides being way down from 20 years ago. I cited the claim, as seems to be the plea for me to do by some here, and yet it still was ignored.

***
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:19 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

Bullshit. Let's just wait from Frem to show up and share his opinion of those drawn to the "constabulary" and their ability to make decisions that lead to social peace and harmony. *insert BIG eyeroll*

Not that I distrust all peace-keepers. There are some damn fine ones out there. But it is shear stupidity to trust those who live their lives in violence to lead us to a more peaceful way. Or haven't you been paying attention?

BTW, don't think I haven't noticed your total cop-out. You asked my opinion, I gave it, and when I turned the tables you bailed and called on the authorities to tell you what to do? Come on, Anthony, you're better than that. You're more libertarian than that, anyway.

Hello,

You misunderstood my response, so I'll try to be clearer.

I am willing to abide by any firearm restrictions that the police are willing to abide by themselves.

Which means I'll carry a musket if that's all they carry. And I'll have my right to an assault rifle if that's what they have the right to.

I will disarm to the exact extent that the police disarm.

This is a safe position because I know the police will always arm themselves sufficiently to deal with criminals. They will never allow any limitation for themselves that would leave them excessively vulnerable.

As long as I can do what they can do, I am content. We can continue to mutually disarm right down to tire thumpers if they so desire and deem it wise.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
My high school in 1980 had one cop, unarmed. It also was common to see gun racks in pickup trucks in the student parking lot, with rifles in them. I can't recall any shootings at school.

Hello,

You can go back some years and find that it was fairly easy for kids to get their hands on a gun. And it was unheard of to see these kinds of outrages. Even when we had gangsters running rampant with fully automatic Tommy guns, they had the good sense and sensibility not to mow down schoolchildren on purpose.

Something more is afoot. Something has made us sicker.

--Anthony

And I would contend that part of that sickness just might be linked to how easy the access is to machines designed for nothing but killing. Sure, guns were available before, but at some point we as a society decided that semi-auto assault rifles were "cool" and "sexy", and more and more of us just had to have them.

Also, the 24-hour news cycle plays a role. There are actually fewer school shootings now than there were 20 or 30 years ago, but you hear more about them because "if it bleeds, it leads."

Perhaps it's time we stopped learning all about the killers, and started learning more about the victims. Stop giving mass murderers the kind of fame and attention they crave.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:27 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Bath School disaster

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–11 years of age [1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history and the third-deadliest non-military massacre in U.S. history, behind 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombing.

The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55 who died in a car bomb he set off after he drove up to the school as the crowd gathered to rescue survivors from the burning school.

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. He used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his fragmentation-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.

Andrew Philip Kehoe was born in Tecumseh, Michigan, on February 1, 1872. Kehoe's mother died when he was young, and his father remarried a much younger widowed woman. Reportedly, Kehoe often fought with his stepmother. When he was fourteen, an accident at the oil stove set his stepmother on fire. Kehoe threw a bucket of water on her which, because the fire was oil-based, spread the flames more rapidly over her body. She later died from the injuries.

There is no clear indication when Kehoe conceived and planned the steps leading to the ultimate events. A subsequent investigation concluded that, based upon the activity at the school and the purchases of explosives, his plan had probably been under way for at least a year.

In early 1926 the board asked Kehoe to perform maintenance inside the school building. Regarded by most as a talented handyman, he was known to be familiar with electrical equipment. As a board member appointed to conduct repairs, he had free access to the building and his presence was never questioned.

From mid-1926 Kehoe began purchasing over a ton of pyrotol, an incendiary explosive used by farmers during the era for the excavation of debris. In November 1926 Kehoe drove to Lansing and purchased two boxes of dynamite at a sporting goods store; dynamite was also commonly used on farms, and Kehoe's purchase of small amounts of explosives at different stores and on different dates did not raise any suspicions. Neighbors reported hearing explosions set off on the farm, as well as recalling conversations where Kehoe explained he was using dynamite for tree stump removal.

Kehoe also purchased a .30-caliber Winchester bolt-action rifle two or three weeks before the bombings.

There were a few warning signs prior to the events. Kehoe passed out employee paychecks the prior week and told bus driver Warden Keyes, "My boy, you want to take good care of that check as it is probably the last check you will ever get."[7] Teacher Bernice Sterling telephoned Kehoe two days before the blast and asked to use his grove for a class picnic. Kehoe told her that if she "wanted a picnic she would better have it at once."[8]

Prior to May 18 Kehoe had loaded the back seat of his car with metal debris. He threw in old tools, nails, pieces of rusted farm machinery, digging shovels, and anything else capable of producing shrapnel during an explosion. After the back seat was filled, Kehoe placed a large cache of dynamite behind the front seat and his loaded Winchester rifle on the passenger's seat.[9]

Records at Lansing's St. Lawrence Hospital revealed that Nellie Kehoe had been discharged on May 16.[10] Between her release and the bombing two days later, Kehoe killed Nellie by what was later determined to be blunt force trauma to the head with an unknown heavy object. Her body was found in a wheelbarrow located in the rear of the farm's chicken coop. Piled around the cart were silverware, jewels and a metal cash box. Ashes of several bank notes could be seen through a slit in the cash box.[8] Kehoe had placed and wired homemade pyrotol firebombs in all buildings of the farm. Farm animals were found tied up in their enclosures, apparently to ensure their deaths in the subsequent fire.

First explosion

At approximately 8:45 a.m. Kehoe detonated the firebombs at his farm. The neighbors noticed the fire, and volunteer fire departments from all over the area began rushing to the scene. Some witnesses claimed to hear gunshots inside the burning house. Detonating firebombs sounded like gunshots from a distance.

O.H. Buck, a foreman, and some men crawled through a broken window of the farmhouse, searching for any survivors. When it was discovered no one was in the farmhouse, they salvaged what furniture they could before the fire spread into the living room. Buck soon discovered dynamite in the corner of the room. Buck immediately picked up an armful of explosives and handed it to one of the men. As Kehoe left his burning farm and house in his Ford truck, he stopped to tell those fighting the fire, "Boys, you're my friends. You better get out of here. You better head down to the school", and drove off.[11]

Second explosion

Rear view of the school building after the bombing.
At 8:45 a.m., in the basement of the north wing of the school, an alarm clock detonated the dynamite and pyrotol that Kehoe had hidden. The blast forced the walls of the north wing upward about four feet. They fell back down, collapsing outward with a crash of wood, glass, plaster, and iron. The roof of the building slammed down onto the crumbling walls. A cloud of dust hovered above the ruins.

The explosion was heard from the school building. Rescuers heading to the scene of the Kehoe fire turned back and headed toward the school. Parents within the rural community also began rushing to the school.[7] 38 people, mostly children, were killed in the school bombing.

First-grade teacher Bernice Sterling recounted the explosion to an Associated Press reporter as being like a terrible earthquake. "It seemed as though the floor went up several feet," she said. "After the first shock I thought for a moment I was blind. When it came the air seemed to be full of children and flying desks and books. Children were tossed high in the air; some were catapulted out of the building."[12]

The north wing of the school had collapsed. Parts of the walls had crumbled, and the edge of the roof had fallen to the ground. Monty Ellsworth, a neighbor of the Kehoes, recounted, "There was a pile of children of about five or six under the roof and some of them had arms sticking out, some had legs, and some just their heads sticking out. They were unrecognizable because they were covered with dust, plaster, and blood. There were not enough of us to move the roof." Ellsworth volunteered to drive back to his farm and get from his slaughterhouse the heavy rope needed to pull the structure off the children's bodies. On the way back to his farm, Ellsworth reported seeing Kehoe in his car heading in the opposite direction toward the school. "He grinned and waved his hand; when he grinned, I could see both rows of his teeth," said Ellsworth.[7]

The scene at the school building was chaotic. One witness, Robert Gates, recounted how "mother after mother came running into the school yard, and demanded information about her child and, on seeing the lifeless form lying on the lawn, broke into sobs. In no time more than 100 men were at work tearing away the debris of the school, and nearly as many women were frantically pawing over the timber and broken bricks for traces of their children."

Third explosion

The remains of Kehoe's car after the explosion
About a half hour after the explosion, Kehoe drove up to the school and saw Superintendent Huyck. Kehoe summoned the superintendent over to his vehicle. According to one eyewitness, when Huyck drew close, Kehoe revealed that he was behind the bombing. Saying "I'll take you with me", Kehoe pulled out his Winchester bolt-action rifle and fired into the back seat. Whether by gunshot or otherwise, the dynamite in the vehicle ignited and the resulting explosion killed Kehoe, the superintendent, Postmaster Glenn O. Smith, and Smith's father-in-law, Nelson McFarren, a retired farmer.[13] Cleo Claton, an eight-year-old second grader, had wandered out of the collapsed school building and was killed by the fragmentation from the exploding vehicle. Several others were injured by fragmentation.

After Kehoe's car exploded, Ellsworth recounted that "I saw one mother, Mrs. Eugene Hart, sitting on the bank a short distance from the school with a little dead girl on each side of her and holding a little boy, Percy, who died a short time after they got him to the hospital. This was about the time Kehoe blew his car up in the street, severely wounding Percy, the oldest child of Mr. and Mrs. Hart."

O.H. Buck, foreman of the road crew, recalled the scene after the final explosion: "I began to feel as though the world was coming to an end. I guess I was a bit hazy. Anyway, the next thing I remember I was out on the street. One of our men was binding up the wounds of Glenn Smith, the postmaster. His leg had been blown off. I went back to the building and helped with the rescue work until we were ordered to stop while a search was made for dynamite."[8]

The bombing had destroyed the north wing of the school. During the search rescuers found an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of dynamite, which had failed to detonate, in the south wing. The search was halted to allow the Michigan State Police to disarm the devices. The State Police found an alarm clock timed to go off at 9:45 a.m., one hour after the explosion in the north wing. Investigators speculated that the initial explosion may have caused a short circuit in the second set of bombs preventing them from detonating. Then a sweep of the building was made and recovery work recommenced.[13]

Police and fire officials gathered at the Kehoe farm to investigate the fires. It was not until the following day, May 19, that investigators identified Nellie Kehoe's charred body among the ruins of the farm. The body was so disfigured it went unnoticed by hundreds who walked past it the previous day.

All the Kehoe farm buildings were destroyed, and the animals trapped inside the barn were killed. The amount of unused equipment and materials on the farm reportedly could have easily paid off the Kehoes' mortgage.[7] Investigators found a wooden sign wired to the farm's fence with Kehoe's last message, "CRIMINALS ARE MADE, NOT BORN." stenciled on it.[15]

Coroner's inquest

The coroner arrived at the scene on the day of the disaster and swore in six community leaders to serve as an investigative jury. A coroner's inquest into the matter was held the following week. The Clinton County Prosecutor conducted the examination, and dozens of Bath citizens and law enforcement personnel testified before the jury. Although there was never any doubt that Kehoe was the perpetrator, the jury was asked to determine if the school board or its employees were guilty of criminal negligence.[19]

Kehoe's neighbor Sidney J. Howell testified that after the fire began Kehoe warned him and three boys to leave the farm, telling them, "Boys, you're my friends. You'd better get out of here and go to the school house." Three telephone linemen working near Bath testified that (after going to the farm and then to the school) Kehoe passed them, and they saw him reach the school right before them. Kehoe's car swerved to the right and stopped in front of the building. In the next instant, according to the linemen, the car blew up, and one of them was struck by shrapnel. This testimony contradicted statements from others that Kehoe paused after stopping and called Superintendent Huyck over before blowing up the vehicle.

After more than a week of testimony, the jury exonerated the school board and its employees. In its verdict the jury concluded that Kehoe "conducted himself sanely and so concealed his operations that there was no cause to suspect any of his actions; and we further find that the school board, and Frank Smith, janitor of the school building, were not negligent in and about their duties, and were not guilty of any negligence in not discovering Kehoe's plan."

The inquest determined that Kehoe murdered Superintendent Emory Huyck on the morning of May 18. It was also the jury's verdict that the school was blown up as part of a plan and that Kehoe alone, without the aid of conspirators, murdered 43 people in total, including his wife Nellie. Suicide was determined to be the manner of Andrew Kehoe's death, which brought the total to 44 dead at the time of the inquest.[20]

Flag atop the school on May 18, 1927, today displayed at the school museum
Kehoe's body was eventually claimed by his sister. Without ceremony, he was buried in an unmarked grave in an initially unnamed cemetery. Later it was revealed that Kehoe was buried in the paupers' section of Mt. Rest Cemetery, St. Johns, Clinton County, Michigan.[21] Nellie Kehoe was buried in Mount Hope Cemetery in Lansing by her family under her maiden name of Price.[22]

On August 22, some three months after the bombing, fourth-grader Beatrice Gibbs died following hip surgery. Hers was accounted the forty-fifth and final death directly attributable to the Bath School disaster.[23]

Legacy

In 1975 the Couzens building was demolished and a small park dedicated to the victims replaced it. At the center of the park is the cupola of the building, the only part preserved. At the park entrance, a bronze plaque affixed to a white boulder bears the names of the adults and children killed.[25] On November 3, 2008, it was announced that tombstones had been donated for Emilie and Robert Bromundt, the last two bombing victims whose graves were still unmarked. A grant from a foundation will pay for the grave markers.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
You misunderstood my response, so I'll try to be clearer.

I am willing to abide by any firearm restrictions that the police are willing to abide by themselves.

OK, I understand you now.

Yes, we need to be able to defend ourselves against against an overzealous state. That's certainly what it is in many places right now, sadly. But a free and open market on mass-killing machines is soooo not the answer. Have you seen the response to those who declare war on the US police/military? Such people are labeled terrorists, murderers, and rightly so imo. It's not about MIGHT. If you think firepower is your out against a US govt you don't agree with, you are deluded. Your right to drop all your cash at some local gun show will not make you safe. You can't beat them that way. All you can do is maintain your delusion.

The fight against an overzealous state can and should be done politically, though it takes patience. It is happening now, if you'll open your eyes and look at long term trends.

I disagree with a lot that's happened in our govt lately, but I think the solution still lies there, in that process, rather than filling my basement with big scary guns.

Maybe I have more faith in my country than you do? Interesting.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:40 PM

OONJERAH

Before Niki says it, I say it:

This now one more discussion about 2nd amendment rights.
Several of these already are in the archive!

Personally, I'd rather read about Follow Up on Today's School Massacre.
It is a terrible story, but I want to know what happened.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

A man's gotta know how much ammo he'll need.

A man's gotta save a bullet for himself.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:46 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
And I would contend that part of that sickness just might be linked to how easy the access is to machines designed for nothing but killing. Sure, guns were available before, but at some point we as a society decided that semi-auto assault rifles were "cool" and "sexy", and more and more of us just had to have them.

Hello,

I don't think mere access is the thing. Nor the sexyness or coolness of the firearms. Heck, the government started helping youths get inexpensive military surplus rifles in 1903. Including semiautomatic military rifles after the World Wars.

Anyway, I don't think these massacres are the result of how much sex appeal the shooters felt their guns possessed.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 4:46 PM