Mass shooting at Elementary School by Storymark

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

The fight against an overzealous state can and should be done politically, though it takes patience. It is happening now, if you'll open your eyes and look at long term trends.

I disagree with a lot that's happened in our govt lately, but I think the solution still lies there, in that process, rather than filling my basement with big scary guns.

Maybe I have more faith in my country than you do? Interesting.

Hello,

I do not think that we are anywhere near a place where an armed insurrection is warranted. That is a dream only to fools. I consider the scenario a nightmare that I hope will never come to be.

And if it did, I assume I will be under-armed. And probably killed in short order. Possibly imprisoned and tortured. Gah. Who wants such a thing? I remember when Wulf would often express bright eyed dreams of rebellion and I knew that no matter his age, he was a child inside. Only children can imagine glory in such events.

I continue to hope that change is possible within the system, though that system is terribly flawed and becomes moreso each day.

Part of the reason the system works, in my opinion, is because the powers know that the citizenry would become a pain in the ass if they declared all laws forfeit and all rights null.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I do not think that we are anywhere near a place where an armed insurrection is warranted. That is a dream only to fools. I consider the scenario a nightmare that I hope will never come to be.

And if it did, I assume I will be under-armed. And probably killed in short order. Possibly imprisoned and tortured. Gah. Who wants such a thing? I remember when Wulf would often express bright eyed dreams of rebellion and I knew that no matter his age, he was a child inside. Only children can imagine glory in such events.

So what the hell? You can only choose a "legal" level of armament if it means you're armed equal to the "constabulary,: and yet you admit that you can never fight them?

So your insecurities do not make you secure - they only serve to put scary guns in the closets of old ladies so that their developmentally disabled sons can use those weapons to murder the children the old ladies teach?

Do you see the problem here?

Please answer the question YOU asked me: what level of weaponry/ammo do you think appropriate to modern times?

Quote:
I continue to hope that change is possible within the system, though that system is terribly flawed and becomes moreso each day.

I disagree. I think there are serious bumps in the road, but it's heading the right direction now. Look at how gay folks, non-white folks, and non-penis folks were treated when I was a kid in the 80s. Shit has seriously changed since then.

Sorry I'm editing a lot: I think one thing all of us are missing lately (I think Stewart reminded me sometime recently) is that our govt is designed to change slowly. It is SUPPOSED to be gridlock. It is not supposed to be whim of the moment and all the laws change. But look at what's happening: gay rights, rights of non-white folks, right of those who want to smoke and chill - all coming to the fore. Racist/sexist/anti-the American stereotype shit that was acceptable in the 80s is way out of bounds now, though we feel that the right wing has more control now than it did.

The long term trends speak volumes. The next decade will be especially eloquent. I hope no crazy fucker with an Uzi stops me from witnessing the change.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:12 PM

Oops. Hit reply instead of edit.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:20 PM

JONGSSTRAW

This is pure evil. This monster stood there surrounded by dead kids he'd shot, and as the rest of the terrified kids watched, he re-loaded over and over, clip after clip. In a free society there is no way to stop this, unless the public demands that we treat our children like the gold bullion at Fort Knox. Armed security at every entrance point in every school. It could be done if there was a will to do it.

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:25 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

I'm a teacher.

Well hell, don't that just beat all. A sad look into the poor state of our education system here in the US. Really not so much a surprise, now after all.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:32 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Please answer the question YOU asked me: what level of weaponry/ammo do you think appropriate to modern times?

I had this discussion on facebook earlier, too. It was alleged that we NEED high-capacity semi-auto assault rifles, because criminals have them, and we have to not lose the upper hand in a firefight with criminal gangs (because apparently that happens a lot in sleepy West Texas, where this guy is posting from). He also pointed out that we can't let the law enforcement community outgun us, either, else we sink into tyranny.

So I asked him if terrorism is a crime. Of course, he said. So if a terrorist plants a bomb in a building, obviously I should have every right to have a truck-bomb of my very own, right? I need it, lest they gain the upper hand, and I need it armed, primed, ready to go, and parked just outside my house at all times, and sorry if I live next door to you and that bothers you, but you should probably go get your own truck-bomb as well, just so you'll be able to sleep at night.

Point being, Americans just seem to fucking love an arms race. *ANY* arms race, any time, any where, any arms. I lived through a generation of people telling me we needed more nukes, lest the Rooskies gain the upper hand, and that was just the way things were for a long time, until enough people started asking when enough death is enough. When you can't kill any more people any deader than dead, then why do you need more? At some point, doesn't someone in the MAD (mutually-assured destruction) world have to be the sane one, and step up and say, "ENOUGH!"?

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
This is pure evil. This monster stood there surrounded by dead kids he'd shot, and as the rest of the terrified kids watched, he re-loaded over and over, clip after clip. In a free society there is no way to stop this, unless the public demands that we treat our children like the gold bullion at Fort Knox. Armed security at every entrance point in every school. It could be done if there was a will to do it.

Every school a prison. And you call it "a free society". You just broke my irony meter.

Tell me again how evil North Korea is.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

I'm a teacher.

Well hell, don't that just beat all. A sad look into the poor state of our education system here in the US. Really not so much a surprise, now after all.

You're just pissed because she's a better speller than you.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 5:48 PM

America loves a winner!

"She " ?

That's even worse than I thought.

No, it's because "she" sounds like some Juvie - hall alum , and is in charge of teaching our young ?

Whoa boy.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 14, 2012 6:26 PM

Gunman Kills 20 Schoolchildren in Connecticut
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connec
ticut-elementary-school.html?_r=0

Oonj's summary: Adam Lanza shot & killed his mother Nancy Lanza at
their home. She was a teacher at the school.
He took guns (hers?) from the home and went to Sandy Hook Elementary
School where the Principle, upon recognition, buzzed him in. He then
went to her office and killed her.
20 Children were killed in 2 classrooms.
Lanza then killed himself. Cops found a Sig Sauer and a Glock, both
handguns. The police also found a Bushmaster .223 M4 carbine.
High school classmates say Adam was smart, introverted and nervous.

President Obama called for “meaningful action” to stop such shootings.
================================

I will avoid talk of guns, gun laws, gun control, etc. Not that guns are
irrelevant -- not at all. But it's all been said over and over and over.

I am more interested in what was wrong with Adam Lanza and why didn't
anyone see it? Or did they?

How does our society produce so many mass murderers. What can we do
to change it?

Yeah, we had one at a shopping mall in Oregon, what? -- 2 days ago?
It's all the rage!

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Friday, December 14, 2012 7:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
So what the hell? You can only choose a "legal" level of armament if it means you're armed equal to the "constabulary,: and yet you admit that you can never fight them?

Hello,

I didn't say the people couldn't fight the government, just that it was an awful prospect and they'd be feeding themselves to the graveyard in droves. Any battle fought against the government would be fought against a force with superior arms and coordination. It would be an insurgency. It might last for a very long time. I don't even like to think about it for very long.

My hope is that the inconvenience of suppressing a heavily armed population causes that route to never be pursued in earnest. Not because the government wouldn't outgun the population (they have full access to military resources, after all), but rather because it would be a horrific prospect, a nightmare scenario where even if you win, you have lived through a bone-chilling, blood curdling awfulness the likes of which no human should ever hope to endure.

In other words, just because you might come out ahead in a nuclear exchange with Russia doesn't mean it will be fun to nuke them. Nor, from their perspective, does a disparity in armament mean that they should just shrug their shoulders and consign themselves to oblivion.

Quote:

So your insecurities do not make you secure - they only serve to put scary guns in the closets of old ladies so that their developmentally disabled sons can use those weapons to murder the children the old ladies teach?

I'm rather surprised about this "old lady's" armaments. Not the sorts of stuff I usually associate with old ladies. But anyway, this question is emotional, not logical. My concerns and those of the armed US citizenry seldom put guns in the closets of old ladies so that their developmentally disabled sons can use those weapons to murder the children the old ladies teach. That particular scenario has a pretty thin occurrence profile.

Quote:
Please answer the question YOU asked me: what level of weaponry/ammo do you think appropriate to modern times?

There are so many uses for guns in modern times that you are asking for a very long list. Do you mean for defense?

For defense I like a low velocity, heavy bullet and a capacity of 6-20 rounds. Sometimes I settle for high-velocity light bullets because they are inexpensive. I have owned a 5 shot defense weapon, but traded it for a six shot as soon as I was able. I feel fairly comfortable with 6 shots, on the assumption that if I fucked it up six times, I'm probably fucked good and hard anyway. I do not imagine myself in protracted firefights. I like soft bullets and frangible bullets that are likely to stop when they hit something of substance. I do not enjoy the prospect of collateral damage.

I prefer handguns and shotguns to rifles for home defense. I like guns that fire one time, each time I pull the trigger. These are known as semiautomatic or double-action.

I do own three single-action firearms and one pump-action firearm, which is technically a variety of single-action where you pump the weapon instead of cocking the hammer. The single-actions are mostly for the sake of nostalgia (cowboy style sports shooting) although I do keep them handy for home defense simply because I am very practiced in their use from frequent shooting expeditions. The pump-action is a shotgun, and I own it rather than another style of shotgun because it was inexpensive and reliable.

I own two rifles that I use for target practice. I don't consider them practical defense implements. They are both semiautomatic and long and heavy. I'd be afraid of shooting the larger one in my house because rifle rounds have excellent penetration and I may shoot a neighbor. I'd be afraid of shooting the lighter one in my house because it is long, not good with hallways and corners, and could be taken from me with relative ease compared to a handgun. I am not as comfortable with the rifles as I am with the handguns.

I don't feel that I have enough control when firing fully-automatic weapons, and am not interested in owning one for defense. I don't particularly like them for shooting expeditions, either. They cost a lot of money to employ and the bullets go all over. I suppose that's the point, but it's not my style.

Quote:

I disagree. I think there are serious bumps in the road, but it's heading the right direction now. Look at how gay folks, non-white folks, and non-penis folks were treated when I was a kid in the 80s. Shit has seriously changed since then.

Sorry I'm editing a lot: I think one thing all of us are missing lately (I think Stewart reminded me sometime recently) is that our govt is designed to change slowly. It is SUPPOSED to be gridlock. It is not supposed to be whim of the moment and all the laws change. But look at what's happening: gay rights, rights of non-white folks, right of those who want to smoke and chill - all coming to the fore. Racist/sexist/anti-the American stereotype shit that was acceptable in the 80s is way out of bounds now, though we feel that the right wing has more control now than it did.

The long term trends speak volumes. The next decade will be especially eloquent. I hope no crazy fucker with an Uzi stops me from witnessing the change.

If I chart civil liberties on a graph, using my life as a timeline, I find that we are living in the worst time for civil liberties that I have ever known. We have less personal privacy and less protection from illegal search and seizure than ever before. Women's bodies are being assaulted in ways I did not see in my youth, with invasive abortion procedures and technical outlawing of abortion in one state by making the clinics unavailable. My country has entered a state of seemingly perpetual warfare and military actions. In recent years, the environment has seen disasters that make the Valdez look tame as corporations gain incredible power over our daily lives. Politics is for sale, corporations can talk, and money is speech.

It's nice that some gay people are getting married and women and minorities are getting better jobs (even the presidency!) but I see these gains coming amidst serious losses, especially since 2001.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 7:33 PM

BYTEMITE

I think I saw someone in this thread mention a need for better preventative care for mental health so people don't snap like this. I would like to agree with that. Also that I think there are a number of societal elements that exacerbate problems that can push someone suffering from mental illness to extreme behaviour.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

How does our society produce so many mass murderers.

It's all the rage!

I see you've answered your own question. Quite well, too. Bravo.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 7:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I live 15 miles from this school, and I'm a teacher. I'm wondering if the next time this happens it'll be my classroom and my decision to give up my life for the kids - which I have no doubt that I'd do. It'd be a privilege, given where I'm at in my life and where they are in theirs. We do lock-down drills, and I've thought about it.

Damned right I have a vested interest in whether the psycho in the hall has five rounds or two hundred. This is 100% a second amendment issue, and if you don't want to hear about it, go hang out at NBC news for the white-washed version.

I feel for you Mal4. I hope that when you go back in the classroom on Monday, you and your students will be okay. I'd feel anxious too if i were you.

Frankly, I just can't bear to read anymore about the justifications for the level of arms ownership in the US. It makes me feel nauseous, angry, outraged.

The tyranny should really be fearing aint your government, aint the Taliban, its the angry, vengeful, disturbed highly armed segments of your own population.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

The tyranny should really be fearing aint your government, aint the Taliban, its the angry, vengeful, disturbed highly armed segments of your own population.

They're our Tea Party Taliban. They are the exact same thing, only instead of a turban, they wrap themselves in the American flag. The goal is the same, though - subjugation of everyone to their will.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, December 14, 2012 8:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
its the angry, vengeful, disturbed highly armed segments of your own population.

Hello,

I also worry about angry, vengeful, and disturbed persons.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 8:35 PM

Except they're not a movement, they are a phenomenum of individuals.

We have them here too. I see them almost on a daily basis, maybe not as bad as the ones who commit these acts, but on the spectrum towards them.

They are filled with rage at the world, their parents, their bosses, co workers, neighbours, other drivers. They are filled with self pitying for their own circumstances and yet they never take responsibilities for the shittiness that they perceive is their life. They blame others, and feel a sense of entitlement.

They act out their self pitying rage at others by most often inflicting pain on those around them, usually the ones who care for them the most. They hit their wives and girlfriends in anger and frustration, they punch other drivers or smash their windscreens in then they feel wronged. Sometimes they self harm or commit suicide in a way they know will traumatise their children or partners.

Whether they are mentally ill or not is debatable. They usual fit into Cluster B personality types ie personality disorders - histrionic, anti social, borderline, narcisistic or some combination of those.

I've read somewhere that possibly as many as 20% of the population have these traits.

In the US, these same people, who rarely seek support for their condition (because everyone else is to blame) have easy access to firearms.

It's not rocket science.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 9:08 PM

^ What Magons said.

Quote Bytemite: "I think I saw someone in this thread mention a need for
better preventative care for mental health so people don't snap like this.
I would like to agree with that. Also that I think there are a number of
societal elements that exacerbate problems that can push someone suffering
from mental illness to extreme behaviour."

And what Byte said, too, tho they're different.

MD sees very sick people who hurt others often and will never cop to it
or seek therapy.

May I add rageoholics to the list?

I see a mental health system that doesn't help the seriously ill (schizo-
phrenics to severely depressed, etc), literally refusing to see or treat
them, tho they can be locked up if they get too far gone.
Mental Help as I've come to know it prefers to treat people who are normal-
"neurotic"-their life is broke, with counseling or group therapy, and most
of the therapists are ineffective at best.

There may be psychiatrists and psychologists who are very good at their
jobs; but they are expensive, as they should be.

The truly mentally ill are left to fix themselves ... but they don't.

Beyond mental illness, there are a number of societal factors that push
people too far in the wrong direction here in the USA. Oops! Byte already
said that.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Friday, December 14, 2012 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

The " why " is what I'm interested in. Not so much the " how ". Someone gets it in them to cause so much death , they're gonna find a way.

And this is the flaw in the argument, major flaw. It's the fact that its so goddam easy to do it, to buy those weapons and ammo that makes it so prevalent. It's the love of shooting, of making big noise, feeling powerful that those sort of weapons engender for some. That is why FPS are so popular. It's seen as entertainment.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

^ What Magons said.

Quote Bytemite: "I think I saw someone in this thread mention a need for
better preventative care for mental health so people don't snap like this.
I would like to agree with that. Also that I think there are a number of
societal elements that exacerbate problems that can push someone suffering
from mental illness to extreme behaviour."

And what Byte said, too, tho they're different.

MD sees very sick people who hurt others often and will never cop to it
or seek therapy.

May I add rageoholics to the list?

I see a mental health system that doesn't help the seriously ill (schizo-
phrenics to severely depressed, etc), literally refusing to see or treat
them, tho they can be locked up if they get too far gone.
Mental Help as I've come to know it prefers to treat people who are normal-
"neurotic"-their life is broke, with counseling or group therapy, and most
of the therapists are ineffective at best.

There may be psychiatrists and psychologists who are very good at their
jobs; but they are expensive, as they should be.

The truly mentally ill are left to fix themselves ... but they don't.

Beyond mental illness, there are a number of societal factors that push
people too far in the wrong direction here in the USA. Oops! Byte
already said that.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

You know I'm not even sure I want this sort of stuff classed as mental illness, its kind of insulting to those people who suffer from mental illness and chug along on a daily basis trying to manage and HURT NO-ONE.

This is something different. This is about rage, sense of entitlement, failure to take personal responsibility, blame, lack of empathy, love of violence and destruction.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 9:19 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I've read somewhere that possibly as many as 20% of the population have these traits.

Hello,

Are you suggesting that 20% of the population consists of violent, unstable people who are on the cusp of committing murder, lacking only a firearm and a precipitating moment of anger to make the unthinkable happen?

Are you trying to convince me I don't need a weapon?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 9:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
This is something different. This is about rage, sense of entitlement, failure to take personal responsibility, blame, lack of empathy, love of violence and destruction.

Hello,

I don't know, Magons. Many murders seem to me like they are performed by mentally unstable individuals. I remember a recent news story on CNN where police suggested something almost literally analogous to, "This man isn't crazy, he just loves to kill."

Which, you know, sounds pretty crazy.

I'm glad a lot of people troubled by mental health issues go through life without hurting anyone, but that doesn't mean the people who go on killing sprees aren't experiencing a mental health issue. I can't imagine that every mental illness is the same. I can't imagine that killers are mentally healthy.

Murder suggests some pretty consequential mental issues to me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 14, 2012 10:12 PM

It may be entertainment or good theatre for the spree killer who hits
and runs.

But for the guys whose grand finale is to blow their own brains out,
not so much. Those guys were driven by an insurmountable pain.
Under the influence, very likely.

Quote me: "High school classmates say Adam was smart, introverted
and nervous."
Withdrawn, socially inept, in survival, a "victim" maybe? He can't tell
us now.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Friday, December 14, 2012 11:06 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
The tyranny should really be fearing aint your government, aint the Taliban, its the angry, vengeful, disturbed highly armed segments of your own population.

I have every reason to believe that both the government and business - taught authoritarianism, local politics leading to bullying, abuse, exploitation, job market driving new job hunters to despair, end of the American dream, haphazard psychiatric treatment, questionable pharmaceuticals given to children, drug escapism, and spooky activity - are complicit in making those people disturbed in the first place. Rage does not arise from nothing. Entitlement is only one source - and inherent in that is a sense of something entitled that was taken AWAY.

Sometimes, rage is appropriate, the only rational response against an engine that's been rigged against you since birth. It's how people USE the rage that is the problem. Taking it out on children and then killing themselves is not an effective outlet.

I don't fear the insane or the guns. I fear the rot. One person with a gun can kill 23 people, a number of them children. How many people do the other problems kill? It's all related. You find the roots of violence and you stop the spread.

Unfortunately those same flaws are not new. They are deep, and old, and festering. This century and the last did not invent mass murder. To change it there are things we have to address that were adopted a thousand years or two ago, things that are a foundation to the very order our society is based on. Whether we should change is a different question from whether we will or can. There are risks either way.

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Friday, December 14, 2012 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Are you suggesting that 20% of the population consists of violent, unstable people who are on the cusp of committing murder, lacking only a firearm and a precipitating moment of anger to make the unthinkable happen?

Are you trying to convince me I don't need a weapon?

--Anthony

I don't know about the 20% Anthony, but I do know that there are a lot of people with those kind of traits. I'm not sure if modern living is to blame, or whether heredity conditions increase numbers. I do know that allowing easy access to arms means that more people with such traits will be armed. Hell, I'm uncomfortable with most people having access to cars.

Yes, another answer is to arm everyone. I think that's usually called a war zone. Personally, wouldn't want to live in one.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:34 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
"She " ?

That's even worse than I thought.

Yes Auraptor, they have female teachers now.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 1:50 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I don't fear the insane or the guns. I fear the rot.

Well said.

Targeting guns or mental illness or any one issue is just political exploitation of a tragedy.

We live in an empty, isolating, shallow, rageful, oppressive culture and then lay the totality of the blame on the individual who can't handle it (be it his mind or the weapons in his hand).

And thank you PN, for reminding us of the Bath school massacre.

-----

Don’t waste your life not making amazing things with equally amazing people.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:02 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Targeting guns or mental illness or any one issue is just political exploitation of a tragedy.

I personally think there's a time for mourning, but the time for talking SERIOUSLY about the nature of the problem should come very soon after.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:12 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

They're our Tea Party Taliban. They are the exact same thing, only instead of a turban, they wrap themselves in the American flag. The goal is the same, though - subjugation of everyone to their will.

Yes, the will to be free, stop relying on other's money to live your life, and to shrink the size of govt. OMG, how horrible !

The insanity which infests your mind is a sad thing to witness.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
"She " ?

That's even worse than I thought.

Yes Auraptor, they have female teachers now.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Not commenting on that, just that I thought Mal4 was a dude. Sure converses like a guy.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:49 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

50 graves discovered at Florida reform school, over 150 dead, 100s more missing, ALL STUDENTS MURDERED BY TEACHERS WITH CONTINUED IMMUNITY FROM POLICE AND PROSECUTORS. 1000s of kids are still missing and presumed murdered from Florida "child protection" agencies...
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=53751

Quote:
"The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths annually. Our estimated 10-year total of 7.8 million iatrogenic* deaths is more than all the casualties from all the wars fought by the US throughout its entire history. Our considerably higher figure is equivalent to six jumbo jets are falling out of the sky each day."
—Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; Dorothy Smith, PhD, "Death by Medicine", March 2004 (plus 10-Million annual aborticides in USA)
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

They're our Tea Party Taliban. They are the exact same thing, only instead of a turban, they wrap themselves in the American flag. The goal is the same, though - subjugation of everyone to their will.

Yes, the will to be free, stop relying on other's money to live your life, and to shrink the size of govt. OMG, how horrible !

Can you show any single instance of the Tea Party actually doing any of these things?

What laws has the Tea Party passed which increased freedom or civil rights? What bills have they enacted which stop our government from handing money out to others? What have they done to shrink the size of government?

What I see, by and large, is a group that was in the past fully supportive of the policies of Bush, which restricted and reduced freedom and civil liberties, which massively expanded the size, scope, and spending of the government, and which never uttered a word against any of those things until a black man was elected President.

The insanity which infests your mind is a sad thing to witness.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
"She " ?

That's even worse than I thought.

Yes Auraptor, they have female teachers now.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Not commenting on that, just that I thought Mal4 was a dude. Sure converses like a guy.

So you don't think teachers should be allowed to converse like regular people, then?

Just what is it you find so "sad" about someone who is a teacher posting in plain language on an internet chat board? Do you hold yourself above using such language? Or do you just believe that teachers should have to live up to the double standard you've set up for them?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:25 AM

America loves a winner!

No Kwickie, I just don't think FEMALE teachers should be allowed to converse like regular people.

Geez, get it right.

( The above is an example of absurd, tongue in cheek humor, showing the absurdity of Kwickie's comments. Please include this part of my comments, when you try to misquote me, and paint me as the misogynist I'm not, but you'll try to paint me as, none the less. Thanks )

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:37 AM

Well, what is it exactly that you find so "sad" about M4P's posts now that you've found out she's a teacher?

Was it the profanity? Are you the only one allowed to use such salty language?

What about her posts was made worse once you found out she is a she?

Please explain.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:53 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

2 shooters in police uniforms, schools locked down to allow shooters to complete their mission, cops never fired a single shot to protect the children...

Quote:
Two Gunmen at Elementary School Shooting

By RICHARD ESPOSITO, CANDACE SMITH and CHRISTINA NG
Good Morning America
Fri, Dec 14, 2012

A shooting involving two gunmen erupted at a Connecticut elementary school this morning, prompting the town of Newtown to lock down all of its schools and draw SWAT teams to the school, authorities said today.

State Police confirm that one shooter is dead. A second gunman is apparently at large and multiple people have been shot, sources told ABC News.

The shooting occurred at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, about 12 miles east of Danbury.

Watch State Police News Conference Live at 1 p.m. at ABCNews.com

State Police received the first 911 call at 9:41a.m. and immediately began sending emergency units from the western part of the state. Initial 911 calls stated that multiple students were trapped in a classroom, possibly with a gunman, according to a Connecticut State Police source.

A photo from the scene shows a line of distressed children being led out of the school.

LIVE UPDATES: Newtown, Conn., School Shooting

While some students have been reunited with their parents on the school's perimeter, one group of students remains unaccounted for, according to a source with a child in the school.

CLICK HERE for more photos from the scene.

Three patients have been taken to Danbury Hospital, which is also on lockdown, according to the hospital's Facebook page.

"Out of abundance of caution and not because of any direct threat Danbury Hospital is under lockdown," the statement said. "This allows us simply to focus on the important work at hand."

The shooting comes just three days after masked gunman Jacob Roberts opened fire in a busy Portland, Ore., mall killing two and injuring one before turning the gun on himself.

Newtown Public School District secretary of superintendent Kathy June said in a statement that the district's school were locked down because of the report of a shooting. "The district is taking preventive measures by putting all schools in lockdown until we ensure the safety of all students and staff."

State police sent SWAT team units to Newtown.

All public and private schools in the town are on lockdown.

"We have increased our police presence at all Danbury Public Schools due to the events in Newtown. Pray for the victims," Newtown Mayor Boughton tweeted.

State emergency management officials said ambulances and other units were also en route and staging near the school.

A message on the school district website says that all afternoon kindergarten is cancelled today and there will be no mid-day bus runs.

http://news.yahoo.com/two-gunmen-elementary-school-shooting-151955649-
-abc-news-topstories.html

The alleged shooter's mother was a teacher at the schools, the guns were registered in her name, the alleged shooter was under the influence MKULTRA mind control "medications".

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:54 AM

America loves a winner!

I asked a legitimate and simple question , to which Mal4 acted like a child, and would only reply in idiotic, derogatory cartoons.

Sad for anyone to respond like that, but even more so , for a " teacher ", whose job it is to educate the youth.

And my experience is that women are smarter than that, and can indeed carry on a coherent, level headed conversation. Which is why I mistook Mal4 of being a younger male, who gets so frustrated at dealing in facts, they just resort to posting silly pictures, or emoticons, even.

Hmmm... I should have seen THAT coming.

My bad.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:18 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Dial 911 and die according to police radio scanners in CT:

Quote:
Purple van with 2 suspects wearing ski masks one dressed in a nun's outfit, possibly related to this incident, being sought. One gunman confirmed deceased, at least one possibly at large.

Troop A notify their troopers that Newtown was working a shooting. One trooper asked if Newtown was asking for assistance. A replied that there were no troopers available at that time. When one trooper responded and yelled back that he heard at least 3 shots fired, all hell broke loose! Suddenly there were plenty of troopers available! Funny (strange) how that works out!

School psychologist and school principal killed. Screams were heard over the loudspeaker system.

Newtown Police/Fire

Response starts at the 22:45 Mark

(9:13 AM - 9:43 AM)
http://areg.radioreference.com/20121214/1/201212140813-441506-7623.mp3

Continues here…

(9:43 AM - 10:13 AM)
http://areg.radioreference.com/20121214/4/201212140843-182442-7623.mp3

(10:43 AM - 11:13 AM)
http://areg.radioreference.com/20121...88411-7623.mp3

Fairfield County Police, Fire, and EMS

Response starts at the 5:45 minute mark (9:34 AM to 10:04 AM)

http://areg.radioreference.com/20121...53453-9921.mp3

http://forums.radioreference.com/connecticut-radio-discussion-forum/25
5363-newtown-school-shooting-12-14-12-a.html

Note how slow the police response was, then notice how police never go inside a buidling where an active shooting is taking place, because that would be dangerous for police. If the victims dont have guns for self defense, government policy to to LET THEM DIE.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Going back to last time I was here, if this hasn't already been cleared up, Anthony asked if the shooter was a "kid". From what I've heard, he was 20 years old, but the guns were registered to his mother (whom he also killed).

Again coming in late, I LOVE Mike's idea of gun insurance! I'm sure people have come up with reasons against it, but to me it sounds like one thing we could do to help cut down on SOME of the violence.

Magons,

Quote:
Do all schools have cops, metal detectors etc in the US? Thankfully we don't have that here

That's because you have strict gun laws, in part, and are absent the "wild west" mentality of America, as well as a Second Amendment that can be twisted to allow anyone and everyone to carry a gun for any and every purpose BESIDES a "well-regulated militia".

Quote:
Frankly, I just can't bear to read anymore about the justifications for the level of arms ownership in the US. It makes me feel nauseous, angry, outraged.

The tyranny should really be fearing aint your government, aint the Taliban, its the angry, vengeful, disturbed highly armed segments of your own population.

Amen.

Damn, Magons, I just keep agreeing with you:

Quote:
its kind of insulting to those people who suffer from mental illness and chug along on a daily basis trying to manage and HURT NO-ONE.

This is something different. This is about rage, sense of entitlement, failure to take personal responsibility, blame, lack of empathy, love of violence and destruction.

As Mal4 said:

Quote:
Look at what happened today, and what's been happening for some time in America, and what America does differently than other countries.

That is, if you noted, the one major difference between us and other countries noted in the article I posted.

Anthony, "I would let the constabulary set the limits." I can go along with that. Just as long as SOMEONE sets some REASONABLE limits, and I think those multi-bullet things (go ahead, gun bunnies, give me the correct term--me, I don't care what you call them) should be outlawed. There is NO logical reason for them to exist.

Ooops, I see you meant you'd abide by the same number of guns/ammo THE POLICE HAVE. I retract my previous agreement.

Quote:
And I would contend that part of that sickness just might be linked to how easy the access is to machines designed for nothing but killing. Sure, guns were available before, but at some point we as a society decided that semi-auto assault rifles were "cool" and "sexy", and more and more of us just had to have them.

Well said, Mike. If you want to blame the news, then doesn't the entertainment industry and gaming share some of the blame? We didn't have those back then--movies/tv to the EXTENT the violence shown in them exists now, and I can't help thinking that contributes.

As to "Stop giving mass murderers the kind of fame and attention they crave", CNN did just that yesterday. In all the coverage I saw, they referred to him as "the shooter" and at one point said they didn't want to keep repeating his name, as it gave him the focus, not the victims. I applaud that. If all media made the practice of saying a mass murderer's name ONCE, then not again, I happen to think others might be less inclined to do such things for attention. JMHO.

Oonj, just got to your post. Thank you; I was starting to get trapped into the same old discussion, and it even occurred to me a couple of times, but I was responding to something specific and got distracted again. I agree; we've been here SO many times, we all know how others feel, and it's impossible to debate. Those of us on the side of SOME gun control will never get through to those who are convinced there should be NONE, or that they should have as much firepower as the authorities.

At this point, tho' I have disliked them in the past--not for what they are, but for their money and power and how they use it--I'm also willing to say "Fuck the NRA. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible."

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:38 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

US Army FM 3-39.40 Internment and Resettlement Operations Manual
http://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-InternmentResettlement.pdf

FEDERAL GOVT AND PENTAGON ADMIT COMMUNIST OBAMA PLANS "CONCENTRATION CAMPS" TO GENOCIDE 100-MILLION AMERICANS:

http://www.infowars.com/obama-mentor-wanted-americans-put-in-re-educat
ion-camps/
http://www.infowars.com/yes-the-re-education-camp-manual-does-apply-do
mestically-to-u-s-citizens/

Quote:
"I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough. Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at. Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon.''
-Professor Bill Ayers, FBI/CIA employee and confessed bomber of NYPD HQ, US Capitol, NY Supreme Court, bombed and killed two female bombers in his house, busted CIA LSD mind-control agent Timothy Leary out of prison, confessed to 12 bombings in Operation Northwoods but never prosecuted, author of Barack Hussien Obama Sotoro's authorized biography and grant recipient of Obama's Annenberg Foundation
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/

Quote:
"Last Thursday evening at Montclair State University, with a video camera rolling, Bill Ayers volunteered that yes indeed he had written the acclaimed Barack Obama memoir, Dreams from My Father. 'Yeah, yeah,' he said after confirming again that he wrote Dreams, 'And if you help me prove it, I'll split the royalties with you. Thank you very much.'
-Terrorist Ayres ADMITS writing "autobiography" for Obama
http://capoliticalnews.com/blog_post/show/8090

Bill Ayers, Professor of Education, University of Illinois at Chicago
www.deliberatedumbingdown.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_underground

"Government control of communications and transportation."
-Communist Manifesto, 6th Plank

Quote:
"I'm Barack Obama, the Marxist professor. I spent the last two years of high school in a daze. I drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically. Look I uh, when I was a kid , I inhaled, frequently. that was uh, that was the point. Pot helped, and booze. A little blow when you could afford it. Junkie, pothead, that's where I was headed. Now you know that guy ain't shit. Sorry ass motherfuckers got nothin on me, nothin. Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, then there are ignorant motherfuckers like you. You can put lipstick on a pig. You ain't my bitch nigger, buy your own damn fries. That's just how white folks will do ya."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, Dreams From My Father MP3
http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly
(video censored by youtube)

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 9:14 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Nowhere in the Bible does it tells Christians to not kill in self defense.

Only the Communist Manifesto bans the right firearms and self defense.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 9:16 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The alleged CT school shooter (patsy?) was under psychiatric "care".

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 9:46 AM

BYTEMITE

...You know, if far more of your comments were tongue in cheek than I realized, that would actually explain a lot.

Can you give me a rough percentage of how much you say is believed, and how much of it is messing with us? Is it around 50/50?

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:03 AM

1. Understand the shooters.
2. Make profiles. There'd be several different ones.
3. Let the profiles be known to the public.

An ounce of prevention ...

I really have no hope that we'd ever do anything practical
about our recurrent mass murder problem. I Do Not!

May as well go back to the guns debate.

A year & a half ago, the son of a neighbor blew his brains
out about 70' from my doorstep. He'd come up to visit his
mom, but she wasn't home. Ignoring him, I supose. He did it
in an alley. We heard the shot; one of the men went to look
around, saw nothing. About 6:00 that evening, some little
kids spotted the body. Cops, coroner cleaned it up, did not
investigate.

They walk among us.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

This is a mental health issue.
It is an issue of social sanity.

But since folks wish to focus on the means, go after the symptoms without care to the cause, essentially treating tuberculosis with cough syrup...

I flat will not discuss it.

-Frem

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

This is a mental health issue.
It is an issue of social sanity.

But since folks wish to focus on the means, go after the symptoms without care to the cause, essentially treating tuberculosis with cough syrup...

I flat will not discuss it.

-Frem

You'd bring excellent insight to it.
So I hope you will discuss it.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 11:15 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

This is a mental health issue.
It is an issue of social sanity.

This here is the actual center of the problem.

But the answer to this, like most answers to problems, is not a simple single thing.

1) Sick people should be undergoing treatment.
2) The right to sell an assault weapon is nonsense.
3) Guns are too easy to get in America.
4) 'Security' should not mean video cameras with no one watching the monitors- we have to employ REAL PEOPLE as security guards.

But all this results in a net profit loss all around, so it won't likely change in my lifetime...

Liberals and Conservatives are equally lazy & stupid regarding this issue, and all too ready for the fun political 'gun' fight rather than discussing the actual solutions to the problem.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, what is it exactly that you find so "sad" about M4P's posts now that you've found out she's a teacher?

Was it the profanity? Are you the only one allowed to use such salty language?

What about her posts was made worse once you found out she is a she?

Please explain.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

Dinna fash yerself Kwick. Rap has no meaning, so don't bother don't trying to find it. He's just dangling hooks as usual, going one to another to get his attention fix. I shut down his inflammatory Faux news statements, so he went to personal insults. How trite.

It didn't hook me, but it hooked you. That's all he's after.

Ignore the troll.

Though, I'd enjoy seeing Rap's jaw drop if he ever met me. I totally out-"man" him online, but I'm a hot chick. His little neanderthal brain might fall out at witnessing such a being in real life, rather than a perfume commercial.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 11:21 AM