REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Guns, Guns, Guns.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 19:40
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Saturday, December 15, 2012 5:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA



This as a topic in and of itself, because it needs to be.

Yes, American society and culture is awash with guns - it always has been, and it always will be.
Frankly, that's a large part of WHY it is American culture, and not British Colonial culture, in that the major incidents leading to revolution STARTED with "hand over your guns", and ended there.

At Lexington and Concorde, at Kings Mountain, and many others, because what always, always follows "hand over your guns" is "or else", and what follows THAT, is massacre.

The founders of this country, for all their flaws, were well advised of history, certainly better than we are, and not a single one disagreed even in principle with the essential right to defend oneself to the point where they downright assume it as much as the right to wear clothing - but Governments are dangerous things, and because of this and the dread of too much assumption of good faith, those founders laid down a Bill of Rights to ensure and codify the freedoms they felt needed to be both ironclad and absolute.


1. Religion - despite it being responsible overall for more deaths than any weapon in the world before or since, this right was and is, meant to be both ironclad and ABSOLUTE.

Nobody with any sense argues for banning a religion, regulating how a religion operates, what does and does not constitute a religion, or for preferential treatment - despite two hundred plus years of (failed) attempts to legally mandate the Christian religion upon us, this right remains invoilate, and ABSOLUTE.


2. Speech - also responsible for much violence and the incitement thereof, and like the former, considered to be both ironclad and ABSOLUTE.

Despite every attempt to criminalize dissent, to sneakily encroach or usurp upon this right, in the end this has always been challenged, and in the end always falls, because without the freedom to speak, violence becomes inevitable - Jefferson knew this, commenting on such after Shays Rebellion, and Kennedy knew it too, stating that when peaceful change becomes impossible, violence becomes inevitable, many others, for the right to speak freely is critical to civil discourse.
And while always under assault and at many times not inviolate, this right is also, ABSOLUTE.


I could go on - but the essential argument is satisfied here that the "rights" within the Bill of Rights were intended to be IRONCLAD and ABSOLUTE.
Which brings us to one "right" in particular - the Right to Bear Arms.
Quote:
The power of the sword, say the minority..., is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for The powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.
Tench Coxe*
The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788


And yet, I see here, people arguing that well, all the OTHER rights are ironclad and absolute, but they don't LIKE this one, or do not LIKE the way others might make use of it and so lets just us make a wee little exception here, and there, and over here, and another one here...
And do not see that this is exactly how the Fourth Amendment has become a tattered rag, a faded shadow of its former self offering little if any protection at all and all but ignored as a matter of course.

They also do not realize they are arguing an impossibility, no more viable or possible than depriving a Russian of his Vodka, a staple of our culture so ingrained that its removal is not just laughable, but downright literally impossible - much as I hate agreeing with PirateNews, he quite rightly brings up the notion that deprived of the means to purchase them, Americans can and will produce their own weapons... I consider this a good thing, the vital enforcement of a right both civil and constitutional, just as women and minorities enforced their right to be "people" over much opposition, one cannot, should not, ever discard a human right simply because it is inconvenient, because it might be used in a fashion one may not like.

Look at the right to vote, and recent attempts to suppress the use of it by minorities because some do not care for the fashion in which they may use it - no one with an ounce of common sense or decency will support this publicly, and for good reason, because to make exceptions to such rights demeans them, flies in the face of everything America was intended to be.

Such attempts at exception have in the end landed us with one of the most terrible things imagineable, which would leave our founders spinning in their graves in horror - a Government agency devoted directly to the suppression and violation of constitutional, civil and human rights.
The ATF, now BATFE, and while three letters short of "Batshit", in the opinion of most americans all the way there in operation and policy.

Which brings us to the question of how one would APPLY such a Prohibition even if they did manage to carve an exception into the right to bear arms.

Oh, oh, oh - I KNOW.

We could have a "War on Guns!", more authority, more SWAT teams, more doors kicked in, more assets seized, more feeding of the prison-for-profit complex, more waste and fraud and abuse, more social destruction and insanity...
AND FOR WHAT ?

Do you, any of you, actually think that it would WORK?!
It did not work when it was originally practiced behind a goddamn constitutional amendment prohibiting alcohol, and it did not work when they did an end-run around the constitution to prohibit drugs, what exactly makes anyone think it would work any better than the first two pieces of purile, abject idiocy.

Did it not occur to anyone, whatsoever, that such prohibitions are the cause of much of the cultural and social insanity which has as of late afflicted our nation - that maybe protecting rights by locking them up so no one can actually use them is exactly the wrong way to go about it ?

Beyond that, it is a hypocrisy of the very worst order to go around bashing any one or multitude of ANY of these constitutional, civil, human rights simply because you don't care for who else might also have it, or you don't like how someone MIGHT use it, because that is a right YOU DO NOT HAVE.

Nobody does - which is why our intended legal system involves jury trial, to prevent the abuses inherent in allowing one person to make unilateral decisions, which is why our political system has multiple branches set to oppose each other at need.
And if someone uses one of those rights in a fashion that harms another, that is why we have a legal system for this, and the assumption of innocence, in order to protect and defend necessary rights from being trampled on by folks who may not care for the way someone MIGHT use them.

You do not, under any circumstances, have any right to revoke, infringe, or usurp the rights of another because you do not like that person, or that right, or how they MIGHT make use of it.

That is the very definition of tyranny, and it bothers me immensely to see folks who would normally stand to even in defense of speech and religion even when people make such awful use of it, to suddenly make this abomidable and hypocritical turnaround and take up the very slings and arrows they would otherwise stand as a shield against, seemingly unaware or uncaring of the inherent and desperate hypocrisy this involves.

It is immoral.
It is functionally impossible.
It would inspire and create violence by the very necessity of its enforcement.

And the LAST thing we need, is one more problem pretending to be a solution.

-Frem

*Tench Coxe was one of the authors of the Anti-Federalist Papers, writing under the psedonym "A Pennsylvanian".

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 5:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Whatever.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:06 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
And the LAST thing we need, is one more problem pretending to be a solution.
Yep.

-----

Don’t waste your life not making amazing things with equally amazing people.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
And the LAST thing we need, is one more problem pretending to be a solution.
Yep.

-----

Don’t waste your life not making amazing things with equally amazing people.



Such as "arm everybody" or "we need MORE guns". Those are problems pretending to be solutions, too.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:21 PM

HKCAVALIER


I'm sorry, Frem, but until we have widespread private ownership of bombs and RPG's, fighter planes and weaponized drones, your entire point is mute. The State has its standing army in precincts all over town and all the guns you could carry aren't gonna mean shit when the State wants in. The War on Tyranny has been lost. Time to seek solutions that don't kill people.

Just as drugs are properly a public health issue, so too, is tyranny.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Such as "arm everybody" or "we need MORE guns". Those are problems pretending to be solutions, too.

Well aware of that Mikey - soundbite solutions are idiotic in either direction, and unrealistic... yet the kneejerk resorting to them has caused infinately more problems than it solves, and folks who should be aware of that seem not to be.

HKCav, ain't *just* the State that one can and should defend themselves from, there's also each other - I favor, as you well know, working towards a sane society in which the personal tools of violence will become naught more than curios and relics of a time gratefully past, but that time is not yet.

And even so, sometimes the act of opposition is as important as whether it is carried off or not - have you so soon forgotten Maryanne and Arianna Godboldo ?

-Frem

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:26 PM

HKCAVALIER


No, Frem, but your point gets lost in the shouting. You and Anthony have won exactly no one to your cause with all your "not from my cold, dead hands" rhetoric. It turns folk (notably genius, scientifically minded womenfolk, of whom we have more than our fair share on this board) off. Wouldn't you like SOMEONE besides the gun lovers and your fellow anarchists to grok the fullness?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:43 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
No, Frem, but your point gets lost in the shouting. You and Anthony have won exactly no one to your cause with all your "not from my cold, dead hands" rhetoric. It turns folk (notably genius, scientifically minded womenfolk, of whom we have more than our fair share on this board) off. Wouldn't you like SOMEONE besides the gun lovers and your fellow anarchists to grok the fullness?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.


Hello,

If you know of a way to convince someone that something they despise is valuable, especially when they can't make the mental leap to comparing it to anything they do consider valuable, what is there to do?

You just keep saying no when they ask to take your rights away, and stand up for them when someone asks to take their rights away.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:44 PM

OONJERAH



^ What HKC said.

Less rhetoric, more down to earthiness.

ETA: Atticus Finch comes to mind. Also KISS.


======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

KISS: Keep It Simple, Sweetheart.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:53 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


I like you Frem, but you are wrong on every point in your orijinal post.

I do hav a solution to the gun problem.

Shift the full expense uv all gun incidents to gun ownerz and proponents, add a full retail price buy back, no questions asked program to that, and start a class action lawsuit against the NRA and all other gun proponent organizationz.

The main thing woud be GIT (Gun Incident Tax). It woud be a monthly bill every gun owner and NRA member would recieve to cover the expensez created by all the previous months shootingz. This alone woud put the whole mess into a deth spiral.

Buying back gunz at full retail, with no questionz about where they came from woud quickly deplete the inventory in slumz.

Getting all the grieving relativez together to seek restitution frum the NRA, ALEC and any other organization with its fingerprints on the rediculous lawz we hav woud drain them to oblivion and keep anybody else from getting ideas about watering down any of this in the future.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Jo,

I wonder what the dollar value of a life lost is going to be, and whether armed government forces are going to pay the tax?

I wonder if you will tax all persons whose lawmaking efforts result in the loss of life, or whether it will just be people who advocate for gun freedoms?

Presumably you will send the police to arrest people and seize their assets when they can't or won't pay this tax. Thus leading to the exact same scenario Frem described.

While I'm sure your gun buyback proposal would reduce the quantity of guns, (I have one I'd probably sell, actually. Full retail? Sweet.) The rest of your proposals are recipes for mayhem.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:01 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Google "JAMESTOWN MASSACRES" -- not JONEStown CIA coolaid you flunkies!

400 years ago Native AMERICANS wiped out 350 British Communist terrorists AND THERI SCHOOL CHILDREN using ROCKS to defeat firearms, then came back 10 years later while UNARMED and butchered another 500 British terrorists and their school kids using only the Brit terrorists' own FARM TOOLS.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or die trying.


Obama genocided over 10-million black AMERICAN babies so far

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, it is important to support the right of nut-cases everywhere to legally obtain guns, just so you can have your rights to a water-pistol in your fight against water canons.

The funny thing is, I own a gun. But I do not think it is the fount of all freedom.

Here's the thing: While the FF in their infinite wisdom (which BTW has been superseded by weapons they couldn't have even imagined) granted individuals the right to bear arms, its political function was supposed to be limited to people who were part of an organized militia. And if you look up WHO, exactly, has the right to organize a militia (form of chain of command, perform drills, create insignia and so forth) is is the state. Funny, that.

Anyway, more solutions, less grandstanding. because this clearly isn't working.


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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:17 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yes Frem, it is so important to support the right of nut-cases everywhere to legally obtain guns, just so you can have your rights to a water-pistol in your fight against water canons.

The funny thing is, I own a gun. But I do not think it is the fount of all freedom.


Hello,

Presumably you have rights that you cherish. Presumably you wish to defend your rights. You probably value your rights even if each individual one is not the fount of all freedom in and of itself, when isolated from all the rest. Presumably you enjoy your rights even when others use those rights irresponsibly.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thinking about all of the problems that our government is creating, do guns play a part in any solution anywhere??? If you see one, lay it out for us here.

...more solutions, less grandstanding. Because this clearly isn't working. The government is more fucked-up than ever, despite our "right to bear arms".

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Thinking about all of the problems that our government is creating, do guns play a part in any solution anywhere??? If you see one, lay it out for us here.

Anyway, more solutions, less grandstanding. Because this clearly isn't working. The government is more fucked-up than ever, despite our "right to bear arms".


Hello,

I can see you're of the camp that guns never solve a problem, or contribute to the solving of a problem.

I have rather frequently expressed my beliefs on why guns are useful, but if they're not...

Well, we can all melt them down, then. No firearm carrying humans anywhere.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
...more solutions, less grandstanding. Because this clearly isn't working. The government is more fucked-up than ever, despite our "right to bear arms".


Hello,

You might as well say the government is more fucked-up than ever, despite each and every one of our rights.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The dratted dbl.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, the government is fucked up despite each and every one of our rights. So what IS the solution?

More than 50 shots fired at Fashion Island mall; suspect held
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mall-shooting-20121216,0,35251
49.story?track=rss

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Such as "arm everybody" or "we need MORE guns". Those are problems pretending to be solutions, too.


Kennesaw GA

The Gun Law

Kennesaw once again was in the news on May 1, 1982, when the city unanimously passed a law requiring "every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition." After passage of the law, the burglary rate in Kennesaw declined and even today, the City has the lowest crime rate in Cobb County.

http://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/visitors/about-us

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So the Kennesaw law swept corruption out of gubmint, did it? 'Cause that was the point of the discussion: the right to bear arms to keep gubmint in check. Try as I might, nowhere in the Constitution does it talk about the right to bear arms to reduce burglaries. But thanks for playing, and here's your booby prize:

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next time, try to keep your eye on the target.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So Tony, aside from that inane interruption by rappy, I see that you have wisely stayed out where angels fear to tread.

But you did raise an important point: despite our Founding Father's best efforts and most creative thinking, our government has gone the way of many governments. A list of enshrined rights which are presumably the foundation of our government has proven to be no guarantee of... well, anything, really. It's like GW Bush said "The Constitution is just a god damn piece of paper". (Uh, vellum actually, but whatever.)

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:23 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
So what IS the solution?

Big class-action civil lawsuits against the two gun manufacturers by the families of the dead kids and the families of the traumatized kids. I know lawsuits against gun companies haven't fared very well in the past, but I'm confident that if a jury is shown pictures of the 20 6&7 year-olds shot in their little school chairs, that jury might be likely to rule in favor of the parents. Sue, sue, and keep suing. Sue until Glock & Sig Sauer are bankrupt. Sue the gunshop that sold the weapons. Sue the state of Connecticut for giving the mother permits for the guns without any sort of follow-up. Sue the bullet manufacturers. Reckless indifference is rampant in this entire disgusting and pathetic circle of death. Unrelenting lawsuits until THEY bleed to death. Sue 'em all into extinction.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:13 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
You just keep saying no when they ask to take your rights away, and stand up for them when someone asks to take their rights away.

--Anthony
Hey Anthony,

This is precisely the problem: NO ONE HERE is ever gonna take your rights away. Not a single soul among us. So, when you talk like this, reasonable people are inclined to think you're not present; like you're stuck in a nightmare shouting "NO, NO, NO!" and we all just want you to wake up and tell us about your dream.

And as to how to convince people that something they despise is valuable, you're framing the issue in the most hostile terms possible. What is it you believe everyone here "despises?" Guns? No. Signy has one. What then? Really, I can't guess what you're refering to here. And if something is crucially valuable to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, why can't you articulate that value to reasonable people? You and Frem are among the smartest guys in a room full of smart guys, but your arguments on the 2A couldn't be more ham-fisted. You're continually losing the argument, alienating everyone who shows the stamina to keep debating you.

Back in the 18th Century, the U.S. could look around Europe and see tyranny after tyranny. We could look at our right to bear arms and the lack of a standing army on our shores as causal links to the freedoms we enjoyed here in America. But all that has changed by now, and radically. Europe has entirely neutered their monarchies. And we have multiple standing armies in this country. So the Framers' arguments have to be tempered by that reality if you're gonna talk to real people living in the modern world.

It might be time for you and Frem to show some imagination and propose changed rather than always defending (TO THE DEATH!) a status quo that doesn't exist anymore. The precident you and Frem keep siting is obsolete.

How's about government subsidized gun training? Local gun repositories where every citizen of voting age could acquire a government issued gun for their personal use as long as they passed a compitency test? Maybe we could have guns installed in our homes like fire extinguishers behind glass. If ownership of a gun is truly an absolute right, shouldn't the goverment supply them to us? I know that if gun training were free and open to the public and the government had a gun with my name on it, I would be more inclined to go to the firing range. You could be pushing for "gun literacy" instead of shouting about how INALIABLE your right to shoot stuff is.

Again, I'd like to propose we think of gun control as a matter of public health. Think of guns as particularly strong industrial chemicals. It's simply not safe to have them lying around the home, so we have laws against that. But with the proper training and permits you can have such chemicals in your home. Why not treat guns the same way?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:30 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I was too tired last night to make my argument, so here it is now -

GUNS = FREEDOM is as simplistic a notion as one can have.

Historically, if it won the revolution (and that's a big if) it was a historical accident that had as much to do with our French allies and their superior navy, and the British fighting a ground war to hold large territories across the ocean, as anything else.

In terms of per capita gun ownership, Serbia and Yemen are number 2 and 3 respectively. Are they hotbeds of democracy? Tunisia is dead last - I suppose it's successful revolution gets disqualified from the Arab Spring on that account?

Obviously something else is at work achieving and keeping democracy than per capita gun ownership.

When it comes to potential revolution now in the US, the US has the largest military in the world, enough to occupy 800 installations around the globe. The military/ police have far superior arms. There is no large ocean between that government with its military and us. And we'd have very bad luck finding allies - I honestly think a large number of countries would gleefully watch from the sidelines as the biggest bully in the world collapsed in internal disarray. And in addition to military power, the US has its spy/ data gathering capability, its finger on the internet choke points, and it's ability to freeze accounts - indeed halt all banking transactions.

And you think gun ownership is THE answer for getting and keeping freedom.



Leaving history, what more and more people are realizing, with every incident, is that if nothing changes we will get more and more of the same. And that apparently is what you want.


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Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:14 AM

VERASAMUELS


Gun deaths statistics:-


# 1 South Africa: 31,918
# 2 Colombia: 21,898
# 3 Thailand: 20,032
# 4 United States: 9,369
# 5 Philippines: 7,708
# 6 Mexico: 2,606
# 7 Slovakia: 2,356
# 8 El Salvador: 1,441
# 9 Zimbabwe: 598
# 10 Peru: 442
# 11 Germany: 269
# 12 Czech Republic: 181
# 13 Ukraine: 173
# 14 Canada: 144
# 15 Albania: 135
# 16 Costa Rica: 131
# 17 Azerbaijan: 120
# 18 Poland: 111
# 19 Uruguay: 109
# 20 Spain: 97
# 21 Portugal: 90
# 22 Croatia: 76
# 23 Switzerland: 68
# 24 Bulgaria: 63
# 25 Australia: 59
# 26 Sweden: 58
# 27 Bolivia: 52
# 28 Japan: 47
# 29 Slovenia: 39
= 30 Belarus: 38
= 30 Hungary: 38
# 32 Latvia: 28
# 33 Burma: 27
# 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26
# 35 Austria: 25
# 36 Estonia: 21
# 37 Moldova: 20
# 38 Lithuania: 16
= 39 United Kingdom: 14
= 39 Denmark: 14
# 41 Ireland: 12
# 42 New Zealand: 10
# 43 Chile: 9
# 44 Cyprus: 4
# 45 Morocco: 1
= 46 Oman: 0
= 46 Luxembourg: 0
= 46 Iceland: 0


Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:40 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
So what IS the solution?

Big class-action civil lawsuits against the two gun manufacturers by the families of the dead kids and the families of the traumatized kids. I know lawsuits against gun companies haven't fared very well in the past, but I'm confident that if a jury is shown pictures of the 20 6&7 year-olds shot in their little school chairs, that jury might be likely to rule in favor of the parents. Sue, sue, and keep suing. Sue until Glock & Sig Sauer are bankrupt. Sue the gunshop that sold the weapons. Sue the state of Connecticut for giving the mother permits for the guns without any sort of follow-up. Sue the bullet manufacturers. Reckless indifference is rampant in this entire disgusting and pathetic circle of death. Unrelenting lawsuits until THEY bleed to death. Sue 'em all into extinction.


^ Great idea. Like cigarette companies.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:53 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


THE air in the United States is thick with calls to avoid ''politicising'' the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for ''don't talk about reforming gun control laws''.

Let's be clear: That is a form of politicisation.

If roads were collapsing all across the US, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what America could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port across the US, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation's security measures. If a plague was ripping through US communities, public health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.

Only with gun violence does America respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. But that's unacceptable. Talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn't ''too soon''. It's much too late.
Advertisement

What follows here isn't a policy agenda. It's simply a set of facts - many of which complicate a search for easy answers - that should inform the discussion that America desperately needs to have.

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the US. Mother Jones has tracked and mapped every shooting spree in the past three decades. ''Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,'' they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally.

2. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in the past 50 years happened in the US. In second place is Finland, with two entries.

3. Lots of guns don't necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland. As David Lamp from the Cato Institute writes, ''In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a licence to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel 'have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States'.''

4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US, five have happened since 2006. That doesn't include the Newtown, Connecticut, shooting.

5. America is an unusually violent country. But it's not as violent as it used to be. Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, in July made a graph of ''deaths due to assault'' in the US and other developed countries. The US is a clear outlier, with rates well above other countries. As Healy writes, ''The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the US is than other OECD countries … and (2) the degree of change - and recently, decline - there has been in the US.''

6. Gun ownership in the US is declining. ''For all the attention given to America's culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,'' political scientist Patrick Egan, of New York University, wrote in July. ''Long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the US.''

7. More guns tend to mean more homicide. The Harvard Injury Control Research Centre assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found there's substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you're looking at different countries or different states.

8. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence. Last year, economist Richard Florida dived deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: higher populations, more stress, more immigrants and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: states with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths.

9. Gun control, in general, has not been politically popular in the US. Since 1990, Gallup has been asking Americans whether they think gun control laws should be stricter. The answer, increasingly, is that they don't. ''The percentage in favour of making the laws governing the sale of firearms 'more strict' fell from 78 per cent in 1990 to 62 per cent in 1995, and 51 per cent in 2007,'' Gallup reported after a mass shooting in Tucson, Arizona, last year. ''In the most recent reading, Gallup in 2010 found 44 per cent in favour of stricter laws. In fact, in 2009 and again last year, the slight majority said gun laws should either remain the same or be made less strict.''

10. But particular policies to control guns often are. An August CNN poll asked Americans whether they favour or oppose a number of specific policies to restrict gun ownership. And when you drill down to that level, many policies, including banning the manufacture and possession of semi-automatic rifles, are popular. About 90 per cent support background checks and no guns for felons or the mentally ill.

11. Shootings don't tend to substantially affect the views of Americans on gun control. That, at least, is what the Pew Research Centre found in a poll taken after the Colorado movie theatre shooting in July that killed 12.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/talking-gun-violence-facts-f
or-a-debate-america-has-to-have-20121216-2bhgl.html#ixzz2FFYrfKxv

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I just wanted to repeat a more general thought that Tony joggled loose. (Sorry Tony, you get tagged with this one.)

Tony posed the thought that our government is a giant clusterf*ck despite ALL of our enumerated rights, and instead of bolstering the right to bear arms as one of those important rights, all he did for me was call into question the efficacy "rights" in general and (by extension) the efficacy of democracy. Because despite all of those rights: free speech, privacy, the vote, right to bear arms and so forth, the government is usually doing something we DON'T want done and neglecting things we DO want done, and quite often doing it secretly.

Whatever it is that we have been using for self-determination obviously hasn't worked- including the right to bear arms. They should work in theory, but in practice... not so much.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard... Religion is good, it's the priests that are the problem or Democracy is a self-correcting system, it just needs time to sort itself out or Capitalism is good in theory, but only fails when it's excessive or If we only adhered to these 'inalienable' rights around the world, we would be fine I could retire tomorrow.

Many simply want to do more of whatever it is they've been pushing... more religion, more rights, more guns, more rich people, more cooperation, more military, or what-have-you. Few seem to have stepped back and really ... and I mean really... absorbed whether those ideas are actually effective in the real world. For example, one of the things that this great list of enumerated rights may have actually done for us is allowed us to believe in the fantasy of "rights" when in fact they don't exist at all.

So guns haven't guaranteed our freedom, and I can point to a whole laundry list of theories that haven't worked. Maybe it's time for us to examine the power structure instead of our fantasies. Who is preventing us from gaining power, and what can we do about it? And please, dear god, not "more guns". Been there, done that to death. Really.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:49 AM

HKCAVALIER


OT: am I the only one who want's to complete the line, "C'mon, Sal! The Tigers are playin'. TO-NIGHT. Never miss a game...?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So Tony, aside from that inane interruption by rappy, I see that you have wisely stayed out where angels fear to tread.


Hello,

I went to see the Hobbit, and rather enjoyed myself. Then I had a professional shave. I feel spiffy.

Quote:

But you did raise an important point: despite our Founding Father's best efforts and most creative thinking, our government has gone the way of many governments. A list of enshrined rights which are presumably the foundation of our government has proven to be no guarantee of... well, anything, really. It's like GW Bush said "The Constitution is just a god damn piece of paper". (Uh, vellum actually, but whatever.)


Nothing is a guarantee of anything. To achieve something worthwhile requires a collection of variables and usually a collective effort. Governing humans certainly isn't something that requires the singular magic key to make it work.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Hey Anthony,

This is precisely the problem: NO ONE HERE is ever gonna take your rights away. Not a single soul among us.


Hello,

While I do not think anyone here is going to take my rights away, (unless one of you is secretly the King of Londinum who wears a shiny hat) the collective 'you' i.e. the public may very well push to take my rights away. In pieces or in large part, depending on what is possible at the time.

When someone talks about getting abortion illegalized, I worry about the rights of women. When someone says there's no good goddamned reason to have a gun, I worry about gun rights. Whenever someone waves the banner of outlawing or curtailing a right I think people ought to have, I grow concerned and speak against it. That's pretty much half the point of Real World Event Discussions. We discuss politics and rights here all the time.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:25 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I just wanted to repeat a more general thought that Tony joggled loose. (Sorry Tony, you get tagged with this one.)

Tony posed the thought that our government is a giant clusterf*ck despite ALL of our enumerated rights, and instead of bolstering the right to bear arms as one of those important rights, all he did for me was call into question the efficacy "rights" in general and (by extension) the efficacy of democracy. Because despite all of those rights: free speech, privacy, the vote, right to bear arms and so forth, the government is usually doing something we DON'T want done and neglecting things we DO want done, and quite often doing it secretly.

Whatever it is that we have been using for self-determination obviously hasn't worked- including the right to bear arms. They should work in theory, but in practice... not so much.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard... Religion is good, it's the priests that are the problem or Democracy is a self-correcting system, it just needs time to sort itself out or Capitalism is good in theory, but only fails when it's excessive or If we only adhered to these 'inalienable' rights around the world, we would be fine I could retire tomorrow.

Many simply want to do more of whatever it is they've been pushing... more religion, more rights, more guns, more rich people, more cooperation, more military, or what-have-you. Few seem to have stepped back and really ... and I mean really... absorbed whether those ideas are actually effective in the real world. For example, one of the things that this great list of enumerated rights may have actually done for us is allowed us to believe in the fantasy of "rights" when in fact they don't exist at all.

So guns haven't guaranteed our freedom, and I can point to a whole laundry list of theories that haven't worked. Maybe it's time for us to examine the power structure instead of our fantasies. Who is preventing us from gaining power, and what can we do about it? And please, dear god, not "more guns". Been there, done that to death. Really.


Hello,

Frem has the most likely solution to the problem and has advocated it for years. Teach children empathy and compassion, teach them that they are valuable and that their fellow humans are valuable. Protect them from harm and make sure they have everything they need to prosper.

Of course, you can't even get everyone to agree on that simple message.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


SignyM

I was thinking the other day how very VERY large are the forces that this society bends to.

In no particular order - international corporatism that deals with things; international financials like banks, investment firms, and insurance companies that deal with money; the military, and the military's handmaiden industries; the international infortainment industry whose job is to sell us things by equally making all into a palatable package - whether it's news or entertainment; organized religions; and consortia and organizations like the NRA or the Chamber of Commerce (at all levels). I'm sure there are more.

Each of these are extremely powerful and have their own agendas, which probably don't include our welfare or freedom, or the survival of the planetary systems we depend on. Yes, they will make small insignificant gestures in that direction, but when push comes to shove - their agendas and power will be extremely clear. As they are at Fukushima, that oozing festering nuclear sore that has yet to be addressed.

Against that we have - the vote.

I think it could be extremely effective. It IS extremely effective in select cases. But the society has to be informed and reasonable, unlike the US which is relentlessly propagandized, and stupefied with drivel.

Eh, I have the idea that overall, no amount of guns will ensure freedom. With or without guns, people get just about as much freedom as they want. We just don't want freedom.



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Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Frem has the most likely solution to the problem and has advocated it for years. Teach children empathy and compassion, teach them that they are valuable and that their fellow humans are valuable. Protect them from harm and make sure they have everything they need to prosper.

Of course, you can't even get everyone to agree on that simple message.
Widen your scope of thought Tony. 60% of the people wanted single payer. If you ask people about the fiscal cliff, the majority will tell you that they want to INCREASE spending on Medicare and Social Security (by a small %) and decrease military spending by quite a bit. A lot of people actually agree with Frem's message, but those people are countervailed by a numerically negligible but unimaginably influential group who has set up a system of kill or be killed, work or die, and buy more shit because you want to be young, popular and desirable forever. And that message is pushed on us from every angle: from the school that has honed it's curriculum to be "more efficient" in today's "more competitive" economy, to the most brain-dead "reality" TV show and beer commercial.

NOBODY IN POWER wants anyone to hear Frem's message. THEY have a vested interest in keeping things exactly the way they are: totally fucked up for everyone EXCEPT THEM. THEY ALSO WANT YOU TO FOCUS ON GUN OWNERSHIP. Don't you think they're laughing all the way to the bank at that totally feckless gesture???

Let's focus on the real problems, and also, let's not conflate them.

We have at least three problems being discussed in this thread:

(1) How do we reduce the threat of people using guns to engage in horribly efficient killing sprees?
(2) How do we reduce the general level of violence in our society?
(3) How do we take back the power of self-determination?

The solutions are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:17 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
OT: am I the only one who want's to complete the line, "C'mon, Sal! The Tigers are playin'. TO-NIGHT. Never miss a game...?"


No.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I must once again emphasize that Frem's philosophy of teaching empathy and compassion while protecting our young and helping them to prosper will encourage a reduction in 1 and 2. A population infused with love isn't generally going batshit crazy and looking to murder people.

I don't know about 3. Three is basically what people have been trying to solve for hundreds of years.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


(3) How do we take back the power of self-determination?

Well, the thing NOT to do is to spin your wheels on side issues - like gun ownership. If guns are a problem in your society - and they are here - fix the problem. It's not something one needs to agonize over too much.


As for THIS country, seriously - we've been told for so very long we are the best - we are exceptional - we have the best medical care, the highest standard of living, the greatest amount of freedom, the best chance of advancing oneself through effort, the longest lifespan, the most advanced science etc. And these things are demonstrably untrue. But people believe this is the best there is and literally can't imagine any better. And all the internet available doesn't seem enough to allow reality to penetrate the religion of USA!USA!USA!

Until people wake up from their trance there is not much to be done to increase self-determination.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
(3) How do we take back the power of self-determination?

Well, the thing NOT to do is to spin your wheels on side issues - like gun ownership. If guns are a problem in your society - and they are here - fix the problem. It's not something one needs to agonize over too much.


As for THIS country, seriously - we've been told for so very long we are the best - we are exceptional - we have the best medical care, the highest standard of living, the greatest amount of freedom, the best chance of advancing oneself through effort, the longest lifespan, the most advanced science etc. And these things are demonstrably untrue. But people believe this is the best there is and literally can't imagine any better. And all the internet available doesn't seem enough to allow reality to penetrate the religion of USA!USA!USA!

Until people wake up from their trance there is not much to be done to increase self-determination.


Hello,

So you don't want me to spin my wheels over the issue of gun ownership. But you want me to fix the problem of gun ownership while waiting for people to come out of a trance?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


'Spinning wheels' is in regards to endless debate over a problem that could and should be fixed in a short time. And wasting your and everyone else's time, so that this problem, and other, bigger problems go unaddressed. Which is what you seem to want to do.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
This is precisely the problem: NO ONE HERE is ever gonna take your rights away. Not a single soul among us.

Of course not, but you will demand others do so, you will support and abet them in this, despite demanding that rights you like, or are used in manners you approve of, be left alone.

You are liars.
You are hypocrites.

And if you will not stand in defense of any right whatsoever simply because you care not for it, think it "obsolete" (and well hell, the Fourth Amendment is obsolete too, in this day and age of electronic info, but we adapted, did we not ?) or you do not care how others might someday use it...

Then you deserve no rights.

No means no.
YOU move.

-Frem

PS. Sorry HKCav, but comes a point where I cannot compromise - I've done that too damn often in the past and can hardly sleep or look myself in a mirror because of it, if that makes you think less of me, so be it.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Basically, mass shootings are not a problem for you.

Victims are acceptable collateral for keeping the laws just the way you want them.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 3:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Can you believe some of these responses?


"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones."

— Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, responding to Friday’s tragedy.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:01 PM

HKCAVALIER


Frem.

First of all, you'd have to work very hard indeed for me not to think extremely highly of you. My life is richer for knowing you, even if it's only here on the interwebz. Your arguments, on the other hand, sometimes, not so much? You and I eternally disagree on methods, but I know your heart is Klingon (so to speak). And don't worry, I'm never gonna vote to have your gun rights taken away because it's never gonna come to a vote, is it? :)

"You are liars. You are hypocrites." Frem. What I hear you saying is that you cannot chill out and just talk to people because you've done it before and it's violated your moral code. Ya know what? I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps you've betrayed your ideals in the past in some conversation or other, but that needn't apply to the here and now unless you want it to. If you cannot be civil in discussing your cherished beliefs, perhaps they shouldn't oughta be so cherished?

On top of which, I'm getting a decidedly mixed message from you here and I'm noticing that more and more your argument has become pure appeal from authority. Very weird, coming from you, wouldn't you say?

You say that gun ownership is a "right" just as free speech is a "right." That we cannot pick and choose. Who says? 'Cause that is exactly what happens, no? The Founders picked and chose. Other nations have picked and chosen. That's what a people does. Then you say that the 4A is all but gone and that we've "adapted." Huh-wah? How in the world are you able to see that the 4A is largely eclipsed and yet cling to the 2A as if nothing's changed in 200 years?

That's what makes no sense to me. Why do you continue to couch your arguments for gun ownership in 18th Century terms??? Look, the technology of "speech" has not changed much in 200 years--we still read and write and speak, only now we can do all of that with more people and faster than ever before. If Tom Jefferson were to come back from the dead, after he got over his shock about tv and the internet, he'd get it. Free speech is free speech. And the technology of religious observance has changed not at all. Tom could sit himself down in a Presbiterian Church he'd have little problem following along. But the technology of armament has changed radically and absolutely. The state's power to put you to death is absolute. The state's power to destroy the planet is not an exageration. Jefferson would perhaps go mad if you were to show him the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So the game has changed. Seems to me we'd better start adapting to the state's de facto monopoly on destruction and seek other solutions, no?

As for instance, of course, institutionalized empathy--as we are seeing more and more these days. Are you really so cynical that you don't think the race can grow out of tyranny as a maladaptive culdesac in social evolution? Saying free speech has caused a lot of trouble and freedom of religion has caused no end of suffering does not mean they are equivolent to the right to bear arms. I'd really appreciate it if you made a case for this, 'cause I ain't seeing it. Saying you have a right to apples and a right to oranges doesn't mean that they're the same fruit, does it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:16 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Someone wants a pistol for home protection, fine. Want a good hunting rifle and shotgun, still okay. What you don't need is an assault rifle. If you live in a house with someone with mental problems that person or the guns need to go. Want to buy ammo, well you should have to have your pistol or other weapon permit to do so.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Someone wants a pistol for home protection, fine. Want a good hunting rifle and shotgun, still okay. What you don't need is an assault rifle. If you live in a house with someone with mental problems that person or the guns need to go. Want to buy ammo, well you should have to have your pistol or other weapon permit to do so.

This post makes all the sense in the world to me.
An assault rifle means you plan on killing a whole lot of innocents, 'cause you sure aren't gonna fight an army of soldiers on your own with one.
In that sense, HK is dead on- the state will win, period.
Still, bad drivers kill more people in the US than guns, so why is badly driving a two ton bullet so warm & fuzzy, while guns are so vilified (And this is coming from a NOT-a-real-gun-owner although I have a couple of Walther PPK BB guns)?
My personal weapon for home defence is a Samurai sword I can get at to at any time, but I can empathise with the need to own a projectile weapon in more dangerous areas. When our society values humanitarianism over corporate profits, this need for extra-authoritarian measures will become extraneous, but in this pre-Trek time, I cannot deny the right to own arms (within reason) to otherwise unprotected citizens.

In a perfect world, guns would not exist.




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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So how about mental health evaluations of everyone in the U.S. when they turn, say, 14? Anyone who fails gets sent to the reservation until they're better. Also random checks that'd re-test everyone every 3 or 4 years. Everyone who's ever failed gets a shock collar and everyone else gets a controller, so if the nutcase starts to act up, they can be safely tasered.

While we're at it, what about dogs? They kill thirty or so people a year, many of them infants and children. It would seem prudent to do away with them.

And those damn deer. 200 people a year are killed and 30,000 injured by deer trying to jump into their cars.

If it saves even one life...

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Geezer, thank you for your continuing effort to make yourself totally irrelevant to any discussion.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:37 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

And those damn deer. 200 people a year are killed and 30,000 injured by deer trying to jump into their cars.

Deer are a problem... if we could arm the nutcases & task them with killing the evil deer threat we *might* be able to kill two birds with one stone in a fiscally responsible way...

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Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:40 PM

JONGSSTRAW


"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence - economic, political, even spiritual - is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office in the federal government. We must guard against the aquisition of unwarranted influence - whether sought or unsought - by the military-industrial complex. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes." ... President Eisenhower


"This is Louisiana, chief! I mean, how do you know who your daddy is? Because your mama told you so?" ... Bill Brousard


"Fascism baby, making a comeback." ... Willie O'Keefe









"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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