Guns, Guns, Guns. by FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

This is a common tactic. You pick something that seems awful that most people can agree on as being awful. Then you pile on as much stuff as you can into that thing and try to ban it. It's pretty much the playbook for convincing people to surrender rights.

--Anthony

I only mentioned abortion because I was responding to Frem's earlier post.

"Do you really think, that outlawing Abortion would stop it ?
What are the logical effects and consequences of doing so ?
And yes, that includes "cheating" by hedging it in with restrictions and manipulating the law or its interpretation to make it EFFECTIVELY illegal, without making it ACTUALLY illegal, a tactic I know full well that some of you have firmly and publicly decried here."

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Monday, December 17, 2012 9:54 AM

HCK> WTF?

I'm agreeing with you, so what's with the outraged response.

We're capable of empathy and of violence.
All societies have rules so that they can function.
Why not some rules around weapon ownership?

What bits are unfounded or contentious.

Our species isn't choking on these beliefs, we choking on an obsession on individualism and invididual happiness at the cost of all else. We're choking on obsessive consumerism, on placing objects above people. We're choking on seeing violence as a solution to just about everything, and in America you're choking on weapons.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:09 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I only mentioned abortion because I was responding to Frem's earlier post.

Hello,

Yes, I was responding to HKCAVALIER. I quoted some of his post in my response.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:19 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Why not some rules around weapon ownership?

Hello,

In my country, there was a push recently to require identification in order to vote. This was a very simple and common-sense rule. It didn't aim to deny the vote to anybody. It simply required that a person be identified before they could vote, with a picture I.D.

Yet some people became alarmed at this simple (and minor) regulation on voting. There was a lot of shouting about disenfranchisement and voter suppression and all kinds of nonsense. Some people worried that poor folks couldn't afford to meet the new regulation. They might have to miss work. They might have to travel long distances to get identification. Many wild concerns were raised.

People have a habit of getting worked up about even the most logical, common-sense regulation of their rights. They imagine all sorts of crazy scenarios where someone is trying to deny them their rights, when in reality they are just placing some simple controls on how it is exercised.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
HCK> WTF?

I'm agreeing with you, so what's with the outraged response.

We're capable of empathy and of violence.
All societies have rules so that they can function.
Why not some rules around weapon ownership?

What bits are unfounded or contentious.

Our species isn't choking on these beliefs, we choking on an obsession on individualism and invididual happiness at the cost of all else. We're choking on obsessive consumerism, on placing objects above people. We're choking on seeing violence as a solution to just about everything, and in America you're choking on weapons.

Yeaaaaah, I was able to agree with you up until the last part you edited in. Ta!

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So here, you oppose a prohibition on guns and nobody here, to my knowledge, is advocating an absolute prohibition on guns. No one, right? What I hear people calling for is regulation.

Ummm, well, I could live with a ban on certain military grade weaponry.
My reasoning:
You don't hunt deer with a Sig Sauer 551A.
If you're having problems with certain folk that requires the use of such a weapon, perhaps you need to choose a new place to live, or ask the authorities for assistance.
If you're thinking of fighting the government at some point there's only one word I have: tanks.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:27 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
If you're thinking of fighting the government at some point there's only one word I have: tanks.

Hello,

Um... what about tanks?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

In my country, there was a push recently to require identification in order to vote. This was a very simple and common-sense rule. It didn't aim to deny the vote to anybody. It simply required that a person be identified before they could vote, with a picture I.D.

Yet some people became alarmed at this simple (and minor) regulation on voting. There was a lot of shouting about disenfranchisement and voter suppression and all kinds of nonsense. Some people worried that poor folks couldn't afford to meet the new regulation. They might have to miss work. They might have to travel long distances to get identification. Many wild concerns were raised.

People have a habit of getting worked up about even the most logical, common-sense regulation of their rights. They imagine all sorts of crazy scenarios where someone is trying to deny them their rights, when in reality they are just placing some simple controls on how it is exercised.

--Anthony

Whatever, Anthony. It's not my country, and I don't think I should even be contributing to this conversation. I don't have to live there, I don't have to deal with the consequences of your laws or lack of them. I just feel for those who are victims in all of this, when the solution to anyone outside the US seems so obvious but so hard for those within.

But I'll leave you to work out what to do in your neck of the woods and sincerely wish you find a solution that works.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:27 AM

dbl post

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:31 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

In my country, there was a push recently to require identification in order to vote. This was a very simple and common-sense rule. It didn't aim to deny the vote to anybody. It simply required that a person be identified before they could vote, with a picture I.D.

Yet some people became alarmed at this simple (and minor) regulation on voting. There was a lot of shouting about disenfranchisement and voter suppression and all kinds of nonsense. Some people worried that poor folks couldn't afford to meet the new regulation. They might have to miss work. They might have to travel long distances to get identification. Many wild concerns were raised.

People have a habit of getting worked up about even the most logical, common-sense regulation of their rights. They imagine all sorts of crazy scenarios where someone is trying to deny them their rights, when in reality they are just placing some simple controls on how it is exercised.

--Anthony

Whatever, Anthony. It's not my country, and I don't think I should even be contributing to this conversation. I don't have to live there, I don't have to deal with the consequences of your laws or lack of them. I just feel for those who are victims in all of this, when the solution to anyone outside the US seems so obvious but so hard for those within.

But I'll leave you to work out what to do in your neck of the woods and sincerely wish you find a solution that works.

Broke people nat having the money to buy an ID just to vote.... is "wild?"

Don't go off the rails just because you have something you feel you need to defend. It does your argument no good when you rob yourself of credibility.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

Broke people nat having the money to buy an ID just to vote.... is "wild?"

Don't go off the rails just because you have something you feel you need to defend. It does your argument no good when you rob yourself of credibility.

Hello,

No, I don't think it's particularly wild. But the people who wanted to install the requirement thought that the requirement was mild and sensible, the objections were rediculous, and the talk of voter disenfranchisement was the product of lunacy.

"Nobody is trying to take away your right to vote" was a common rejoinder.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Um... what about tanks?

My point is that unless you have a Plasma Rifle in 40 watt range, no hand held gun is going to help you when the tanks roll in.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
the objections were rediculous, and the talk of voter disenfranchisement was the product of lunacy.

Tony, you're beginning to lose me here...

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Um... what about tanks?

My point is that unless you have a Plasma Rifle in 40 watt range, no hand held gun is going to help you when the tanks roll in.

Hello,

I think the daily lesson in insurgency has taught us very well that you do not go toe to toe with tanks.

Which stops the insurgency not one whit.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:42 AM

Guys, he was comparing the disenfranchisement of blacks and other poor voters using voter ID laws with stricter gun control laws, which he is against, for ostensibly the same reasons he is against the voter ID laws.

Subtext please.

In before objection that "but votes don't kill people, wars do."

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Tony, you're beginning to lose me here...

Hello,

I am here to answer any particular question or uncertainty.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:46 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
In before objection that "but votes don't kill people, wars do."

Hello,

LOL!

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Tony, you're beginning to lose me here...

Hello,

I am here to answer any particular question or uncertainty.

I found you again. No worries.

Thanks Byte.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 11:44 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
HCK> WTF?

I'm agreeing with you, so what's with the outraged response.

We're capable of empathy and of violence.
All societies have rules so that they can function.
Why not some rules around weapon ownership?

What bits are unfounded or contentious.

Why, that would be the bits you said in your last post?

Hey Magons,

I'll see your WTF and raise ya a WTH??? These three very mild statements here aren't what I saw in your other post.

"I've often wondered weather empathy is learned."

I'm sorry, but I took that to mean you believed empathy to be learned. I figured you were simply hedging (further down you seemingly confirm my suspicion). To say empathy is "learned" in this context is to say that it does not arise naturally; it is to say that it's something alien to our most primal instincts and therefore kinda quaint and nice but, at the end of the day, or when the shit hits the fan, empathy is simply not something humans are ever gonna really get to. That "learned" is what I objected to so strenously. Even dogs and cats express empathy without doing a lot of learning.

"You will never get a society where everyone is empathic."

This really seems to contradict your statement above: "We're capable of empathy and violence," which suggests that you already believe that our entire society is empathic. If you'd merely said that we were capable of empathy and violence I can't imagine any sane person would disagree. Why you gotta backpeddle? Didn't you think what you wrote? Isn't it different from what you're saying now?

"Secondly, violence and cruelty are as much a part of human nature as empathy is, maybe more so since we tend to lean towards that if empathy is not learned."

Okay, see, here you've clearly moved from "I've often wondered wheather empathy is learned" to basing your argument on the presumption that it is. So, really, your "I've often wondered" is just diplomacy. Again, if you were just asking questions and wondering in earnest, I don't think I woulda gotten riled.

And that "maybe moreso" speaks again of empathy being somehow secondary, learned behavior, non-instinctual, while violence is a primary drive in humans. This is mythology.

"We are predators after all."

Aw, hell to the no! That's just brainwashing from the Naked Ape crowd of the 50's that has been roundly debunked for decades. Minus our technology, we're pretty half-assed predators who don't even have the digestive tract to process all that meat properly.

Your second statement above, "All societies have rules so that they can function," is kinda totalogical (what is a society?) and kinda nebulous (what constitutes a rule?) and, to my mind, thoroughly questionable (what are you really trying to say?). You act now as if this is so very mild and self-evident and yet in your previous post you claimed to "know this will be the most contentious." What contention were you imagining if not the one I gave you? What's going on, Magons? I'm really having a difficult time seeing a logical through-line from that post to this. I'm quite willing to accept that you and I are having a terrible misunderstanding. As I said in my last post, I'm kinda sceptical that you and I can have a reasonable conversation on this subject, our points of reference being so wholly incompatible.

Quote:
Our species isn't choking on these beliefs, we choking on an obsession on individualism and invididual happiness at the cost of all else. We're choking on obsessive consumerism, on placing objects above people. We're choking on seeing violence as a solution to just about everything, and in America you're choking on weapons.

The so-called rugged individualist is a fundamentally toxic notion. As far as I can see it arose somewhere in the 19th century. The rise of Napoleon as the first strong man dictator in history inspired young men across the globe to abandon their families and social connections and seek only power. Somewhere in the 19th century, with the destruction of the old order, and the bringing down of monarchy, a segment of society decided they would be more than happy to fill the void. I think it's at this point that society started rewarding sociopathic behavior. America may indeed be ahead of this nihilistic curve, having never had a monarchy to begin with, but I think it's a world wide phenomenon. And the only cure for that--the only cure, mind, is to institutionalize empathy.

(Side note about the vid: Why, oh why do they feel the need to coin the ugly "outrospection" when the word would naturally be "extrospection?" Anyway...)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 11:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The problem is the stigma against getting help for mental health issues, and an abusive and exploitive mental health treatment system. Fix that up, give some additional hotlines for people at their breaking point and for people who the anger and resentment is starting to overcome them before they do something bad, and you'll have already improved the situation quite a lot. Without Orwellian Reporting, and without 4 year sanity testing.

And I'd be all for that. And if that was fixed, I'd probably opt for mental health professionals who found someone they thought was a danger and beyond their capability being able to refer them to some non-expolitive body for further help. In a few cases, I'd probably allow involuntary confinement and treatment if the non-exploitive body found a real danger.

It would be good if we actually could deal with the real problem.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:00 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

Anthony RE your rebuttle of my post to Frem. You appear to understand the basic concept of power.

A better undestanding requires the additional concept of balance.

Without the power to communicate, our species coud not exist. Its nearly as essential as the ability to invent ways to influence and alter our environment.

So, yes, words kill. But they also make civilization possible.

Guns have been called 'equalizerz' because an 80 pound girl can defend herself from a 300 pound brute with wun. This iz not accurate.

Gunz go way the hell overboard beyond equalization. That 80 pound girl can possibly kill the brute and 50 uv hiz big brute buddyz from 1,000 yards away in a matter uv minits.

The basic premise uv a gun az self defense iz lost bekuz uv its excessive power. The notion that you can defend yourself frum sumwun else with a gun just by having wun yourself and being a good shot iz restricted to a limited set uv circumstancez. Your enemy can put a bullet in your hed before you know hez there.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:13 PM

Quote:
That 80 pound girl can possibly kill the brute and 50 uv hiz big brute buddyz from 1,000 yards away in a matter uv minits.

Maybe if she had military training and hardware. And a railgun. Or a sniper rifle perfectly calibrated with a hell of an accurate scope. Or she's RIVER.

Remember in Firefly when Jayne is bragging about tagging someone at 500 yards away? That would be difficult even without a bent scope. You're talking about five football fields.

Now if you mean a girl could walk into a room with a black market illegal fully-automatic and take out fifty relatively big guys in a matter of minutes, then yes. Although frankly I don't know why in your example we're talking about an 80 pound girl. I think there's an implication there about 80 pound girls versus brutes that I don't want to touch with a barge pole.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Anthony RE your rebuttle of my post to Frem. You appear to understand the basic concept of power.

A better undestanding requires the additional concept of balance.

Without the power to communicate, our species coud not exist. Its nearly as essential as the ability to invent ways to influence and alter our environment.

So, yes, words kill. But they also make civilization possible.

Guns have been called 'equalizerz' because an 80 pound girl can defend herself from a 300 pound brute with wun. This iz not accurate.

Gunz go way the hell overboard beyond equalization. That 80 pound girl can possibly kill the brute and 50 uv hiz big brute buddyz from 1,000 yards away in a matter uv minits.

The basic premise uv a gun az self defense iz lost bekuz uv its excessive power. The notion that you can defend yourself frum sumwun else with a gun just by having wun yourself and being a good shot iz restricted to a limited set uv circumstancez. Your enemy can put a bullet in your hed before you know hez there.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com]

Hello,

It seems as though you're advocating for dueling pistols. Equal but limited firepower.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:23 PM

I continue to have misgivings, Geezer. Although perhaps some of your ideas are salvageable in regards to addressing the problem. Just not the forced confinement and treatment thing. Did you watch Dollhouse? See Sierra's backstory? Bad enough as the system currently is without giving MORE power for that.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 1:42 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"In my country, there was a push recently to require identification in order to vote. This was a very simple and common-sense rule. It didn't aim to deny the vote to anybody. It simply required that a person be identified before they could vote, with a picture I.D.

Yet some people became alarmed at this simple (and minor) regulation on voting. There was a lot of shouting about disenfranchisement and voter suppression and all kinds of nonsense. Some people worried that poor folks couldn't afford to meet the new regulation. They might have to miss work. They might have to travel long distances to get identification. Many wild concerns were raised.

People have a habit of getting worked up about even the most logical, common-sense regulation of their rights. They imagine all sorts of crazy scenarios where someone is trying to deny them their rights, when in reality they are just placing some simple controls on how it is exercised."

"No, I don't think it's particularly wild. But the people who wanted to install the requirement thought that the requirement was mild and sensible, the objections were rediculous, and the talk of voter disenfranchisement was the product of lunacy."

Not according to the this man:

Mike Turzai, the Pennsylvania GOP House majority leader, said that a strict new voter ID law will help Republicans win the state for the first time since 1988.

""Voter ID, which is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done," he said to applause at a Republican State Committee this weekend, according to PoliticsPa.com."

And so your argument falls down. Please retract your claims and the falsifications you presented.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 1:52 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Not according to the this man:

Mike Turzai, the Pennsylvania GOP House majority leader, said that a strict new voter ID law will help Republicans win the state for the first time since 1988.

""Voter ID, which is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done," he said to applause at a Republican State Committee this weekend, according to PoliticsPa.com."

And so your argument falls down. Please retract your claims and the falsifications you presented.

Hello,

Surely he was talking about how less voter fraud would benefit his candidate.

But even if you wanted to make the leap that THAT GUY wanted to disenfranchise voters, that doesn't mean that the vast majority of Voter ID supporters wanted to. They just wanted to add some common sense rules to the voting process.

A few fringe lunatics are attached to any policy, after all. That does not indicate a valid campaign to eliminate your rights.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:01 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Way back when there was a spike of moral outrage, and knees were jerked ..."

Sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes it does.

MADD. Anti-cigarette smoking. Two examples that worked extremely well to provide more protection to the 'innocent' - those killed, maimed or injured by drunk driving or second-hand smoke.

Other things that have worked - anti-pollution laws. Laws helping ensure food safety. Laws helping ensure job safety.

Before you blanket condemn any and all government action to protect people, maybe you need to look at the other side of the argument.

More than that, I seriously, vehemently disagree that the will of the people should be ignored. Are we a free society in reality, able to weigh our options and make our choices? Or are we chained to symbols unable to choose?

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:08 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wisconsin state senator, Glenn Grothman, and I’m sure I need not state that he is a…what else, a Republican piece of horseshit, another one of those who are determined to disenfranchise voters in order to win an election. From his interview with Think Progress (Keyes):

KEYES: If it were upheld and in place in time for the November election, do you think — polls have shown a pretty razor-thin margin — do you think it might ultimately help Romney’s campaign here in the state?
GROTHMAN: Yes. Right. I think we believe that insofar as there are inappropriate things, people who vote inappropriately are more likely to vote Democrat.

Let me interpret that for you AnthonyT - it's to keep DEMOCRATS away from the polls.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:09 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
More than that, I seriously, vehemently disagree that the will of the people should be ignored.

Hello,

I'm pretty sure that your fear about the will of the people being ignored is even more farfetched than my fear that people are trying to take away my gun rights.

After all, the people have successfully willed my gun rights diminished on more than one occasion in my own lifetime.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:11 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Do I need to find more republicans admitting what voter ID was for?

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:12 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Wisconsin state senator, Glenn Grothman, and I’m sure I need not state that he is a…what else, a Republican piece of horseshit, another one of those who are determined to disenfranchise voters in order to win an election. From his interview with Think Progress (Keyes):

KEYES: If it were upheld and in place in time for the November election, do you think — polls have shown a pretty razor-thin margin — do you think it might ultimately help Romney’s campaign here in the state?
GROTHMAN: Yes. Right. I think we believe that insofar as there are inappropriate things, people who vote inappropriately are more likely to vote Democrat.

Let me interpret that for you AnthonyT - it's to keep DEMOCRATS away from the polls.

Hello,

Oh my goodness, Kiki. You seem to be building a strong case that a seemingly logical Voter ID law is actually being used by some people to disenfranchise voters. Essentially stealing their rights.

Which is a direct contradiction to what I was told. They said in no uncertain terms that they were Not Trying to Take Your Voting Rights Away when they proposed these initiatives.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:15 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Amazing, isn't it.

So, to get back to guns - when it comes to assault weapons I can give you an unqualified maybe. Define assault weapon. Then we can talk.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:16 PM

Anthony understands that part of the interest in voter ID laws was to keep poor voters away. That is why he compared them to restrictions on gun ownership. He clearly sees the right to vote and the right to own guns as similar and equal rights. He views people trying to making voting more difficult as chiseling away at those rights, just as he sees people trying to make owning guns more difficult in the same way.

He's now just pulling your leg, 1kiki.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

MADD. Anti-cigarette smoking. anti-pollution laws. Laws helping ensure food safety. Laws helping ensure job safety.

You know, I'm not up for endless links & a 1000 word essay on why this is so simplistic.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:20 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

BTW AnthonyT

Your argument is completely fallacious when it comes to voter ID. That you describe them as "seemingly logical Voter ID" laws is in defiance of all known facts. When challenged in court, states could find NO evidence of voter fraud that this supposedly 'logical' set of laws was supposed to fix.

That you would describe them as 'logical' makes me think you're extremely disingenuous in your presentation or your thoughts.

Then you try and draw equivalencies with gun laws, when the reality of gun violence and the severity of the problem is painfully obvious to everyone.

The two situations are not comparable in the least.

Twist away, little boy.

Enjoy your mental gymnastics.

I hope you realize what a heartless snide little weasel you look like, comparing a non-existent voter fraud problem with the all-too-real problem of gun violence. Enjoy your new-found reputation. Asshole.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
He views people trying to making voting more difficult as chiseling away at those rights, just as he sees people trying to make owning guns more difficult in the same way.

He's now just pulling your leg, 1kiki.

I love that you're here moderating, thanks B! You're doing a great job IMHO.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

That you would describe them as 'logical' makes me think you're extremely disingenuous in your presentation or your thoughts.

Almost there...

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
when it comes to assault weapons I can give you an unqualified maybe. Define assault weapon. Then we can talk.

Seriously?
You need a definition?
A gun that was designed for maximum human kills in the shortest time possible relevant to its size & round capacity.
Is that working for you?

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
He views people trying to making voting more difficult as chiseling away at those rights, just as he sees people trying to make owning guns more difficult in the same way.

He's now just pulling your leg, 1kiki.
I love that you're here moderating, thanks B! You're doing a great job IMHO.

Not really. It's just that the misunderstanding seemed so easy to clear up. But maybe not. :/

I guess it's hard to detect tone and sarcasm over the internet. That's probably why I'm either over-doing it or talking a bit robotic.

I actually don't really have opinions on guns. Not afraid of them, don't care for them. Don't even really like them. Much prefer fisticuffs. But Frem, well, Frem seems to NEED them. So I'm okay with that.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Twist away, little boy.

ETA:

Quote:
I hope you realize what a heartless snide little weasel you look like, comparing a non-existent voter fraud problem with the all-too-real problem of gun violence. Enjoy your new-found reputation. Asshole.

Hello,

I see that your arguments have evolved to the pinnacle level of personal insult.

Voter ID law advocates wanted to be sure that the person voting was who they said they were. They pointed out that the actual amount of Fraud was difficult to determine, since there was no comprehensive system in place to prevent or even detect it.

They pulled out stories like this one to make their case.
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/05/michigan_dead_people_v
oting_au.html

And it all sounded pretty good until you realized that there was a disparate impact of these proposals.

The incident of Voter ID is almost identical to the incident of California's Junk Gun (Saturday Night Special) bans.

http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/junkguns/aboutn.htm

The so-called Junk Guns were found to be involved in a majority of criminal confiscations, so laws were enacted to restrict Junk Guns.

The solution was found in the melting point of the firearm frame. The Junk Guns they targeted had a lower melting point than higher priced alternatives. They also reasoned that the softer metal of Junk Guns was easier to modify (filing off serial numbers.)

It seemed pretty logical to a lot of people.

What do YOU think an Assault Weapon is?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:35 PM

Fisticuffs and blades, like swords, and axes, and polearms. And maybe cross bows. And bows.

I dunno, so I think the old primitive weaponry is actually kinda elegant. So shoot me. ;)

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:37 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You missed my ETA. Here it is.

I hope you realize what a heartless snide little weasel you look like, comparing a non-existent voter fraud problem with the all-too-real problem of gun violence. Enjoy your new-found reputation. Asshole.

I won't be discussing anything with you again.

ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

Hello,

I'm not even sure who this is directed at, but probably me, given the surrounding text.

It's like you went a bit mad there fore a moment.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I actually don't really have opinions on guns. Not afraid of them, don't care for them. Don't even really like them.

Well, I quite like guns, and I own a whole passel of 'em!
Two Walther PPK's, a P99 too.
But they, being replicas, are no deadlier than my ten phasers, my Mal gun, or my lightsabre.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:42 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Fisticuffs and blades, like swords, and axes, and polearms. And maybe cross bows. And bows.

I dunno, so I think the old primitive weaponry is actually kinda elegant. So shoot me. ;)

Hello,

Reminds me of my days fencing at college. Good times.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:43 PM

I'll say it again: votes don't kill people, wars do.

(The missing point here is that wars are voted on. There is a reason I don't vote. Too much guilt involved)

Quote:
I hope you realize what a heartless snide little weasel you look like, comparing a non-existent voter fraud problem with the all-too-real problem of gun violence. Enjoy your new-found reputation. Asshole.

That's uncalled for. Sure, the joke went on too long, but you weren't listening to us when we explained the misunderstanding.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I actually don't really have opinions on guns. Not afraid of them, don't care for them. Don't even really like them.
Well, I quite like guns, and I own a whole passel of 'em!
Two Walther PPK's, a P99 too.
But they, being replicas, are no deadlier than my ten phasers, my Mal gun, or my lightsabre.

This is true. A gun that is locked up and secured and unloaded is fairly safe. Most times.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:53 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

BUT THAT ***IS*** HIS ARGUMENT.

His argument IS that people will SAY their intentions are well-meaning when they aren't.

But the situations are not at all equivalent. The 'problem' of voter fraud was non-existent - at best nebulous if you gave EVERY benefit of the doubt.

The problem of gun violence is real. It's obvious. It's brutal. it's heartbreaking. It is a REAL EVIDENT PROBLEM. To treat it like it's JUST LIKE voter fraud is an act of extreme dishonestly, cruelty, insanity. To try to make it an argument is worse.

And he seems to think that we are too stupid and too ignorant to understand the facts. That somehow if he's sly enough, subtle enough, we'll be sucked in to the argument that indeed, gun violence is JUST LIKE voter fraud and therefore the solutions to gun violence are JUST AS BAD as the ones to voter fraud.

Make no mistake - that IS his argument.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 2:59 PM