It could have been worse...without the guns. by Hero

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Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Yeah, welcome, except you registered in 2002. Where you been, man?

Welcome back, I say.

True, I registered here round about the same time I registered on the OB. I got used to the other digs (appreciated cast and creator visits - one cast member stuck around for quite sometime) and made many a friend (many of which I suspect are over here now or have been for some time).

I miss the 'loon but it served a purpose and served it well. So a fond farewell to the OB (which I and others will probably check to see if it reopens for as long as Mzinga leaves a door to knock on) and hello FFFNET!

=0)

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What the hell are you even rambling on about, Chrissy ? So, in YOUR opinion, everyone who ISN'T a deadly Ninja assassin is " too lazy "

If you wanna be tough & deadly, merely buying a gun won't do it unless you want to be a fully trained (potential) killer.
Anything less is fooling yourself into a false sense of security by owning a weapon (or weapons) you cannot use with any expertise or accuracy. In such cases, leave it to the police. By your posts you clearly seem to be a novice in the area of self defence. I would not trust you with a potato gun, much less a rifle. As much as I think you're a dick, I would be sad to see you injure yourself.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:41 PM

America loves a winner!

Mal4 - you're a complete and total idiot. Anyone w/ a room temp IQ would know I was talking about AT THE SCHOOL.

Was she a registered gun owner ? We know this for a fact ? And I guess she should have just hauled off and popped a few into her son, before she knew he was gonna do her, and 20 kids, huh?

Also, if teachers aren't making enough, it's because of the teacher's unions, which make it near impossible for crappy teachers to get fired, and force districts to pay for teachers NOT to teach, when they're on suspension.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:59 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

If you wanna be tough & deadly, merely buying a gun won't do it unless you want to be a fully trained (potential) killer.

Cite where I ever said anything of the sort ? In fact, I have stated the exact same as you have, that training is necessary for anyone who owns a gun.

Quote:

Anything less is fooling yourself into a false sense of security by owning a weapon (or weapons) you cannot use with any expertise or accuracy. In such cases, leave it to the police.

So 20 children can be gunned down, THEN the cops show up. Right.

Quote:
By your posts you clearly seem to be a novice in the area of self defence. I would not trust you with a potato gun, much less a rifle. As much as I think you're a dick, I would be sad to see you injure yourself.

What about self "defense" ?

No one's asked you to trust me, so put your widdle head to rest, Chrissy.

The only one I'd injure would be the bad guy, punk.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The only one I'd injure would be the bad guy, punk.

That confirms my wanna-be cowboy attitude I perceive from you, thanks.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:35 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing.

...or simply been added to the list of casualties. The good guys do not always win.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:38 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The only one I'd injure would be the bad guy, punk.
That confirms my wanna-be cowboy attitude I perceive from you, thanks.

yippie ki-ya, motherfucker!

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:46 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing.

...or simply been added to the list of casualties. The good guys do not always win.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

Yeah, the Rap keeps ignoring the fact that the first casualty last Friday was a registered gun owner, and those registered guns were the ones used in the shooting.

Facts never stopped the Rap from living in fantasy-land.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:50 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Yeah, the Rap keeps ignoring the fact that the first casualty last Friday was a registered gun owner, and those registered guns were the ones used in the shooting.

Guns NOT registered to the shooter, you frelling idiot.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:56 PM

JONGSSTRAW

It is being reported by a close neighbor of the Lanzas that the mother had recently started legal proceedings to have her son committed to a psychiatric facility. The son found out and was very afraid and very angry. One can speculate that a confrontation took place, with results we now know. If this story turns out to be true, at least there's an explanation.

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Facts never stopped the Rap from living in fantasy-land.

If we could all only live there...

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

yippie ki-ya, motherfucker!

Oh lookie. An internet 'tough-guy' with a Bruce Willis fixation. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. I bet you have more than one of these stashed amongst you gun collection, eh:

Heh. It's ok, I understand. =0)

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Guns NOT registered to the shooter, you frelling idiot.

But registered, none-the-less, to the first victim of the shooter, as has been stated.

You can't even acknowledge that's a true statement and that it bears weight in the conversation, it seems. Is your 'idiot' finger also your trigger finger? Erg. Keep working on your aim, WBB.

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If we could all only live there...

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What I find so amusing is that rappy, hero, and the other nitwits have to reach into fantasy-land in order to make their case, and come up with imaginary headlines about what "could have" happened if only the world worked like they would like it to.

Well, I can make up imaginary headlines, too:

"Thirty young students were killed in shootout between would-be gunman and would-be protectors. Of the dead students, 17 were killed by friendly-fire"

Or, how about this one?

"A theater shooting turned into a melee as movie-goers returned fire, shooting blindly in the dark at anyone they perceived as the would-be killer. One hundred people were injured and 41 people were killed, 19 of those by friendly fire"

Or even...

"Seven people were injured in a case of 'contagious fire' at a local Starbucks known for its tolerance of 'open-carry' weaponry"

DAMN, this is FUN!

And I can even find a headline or two which demonstrates that these scenarios are definitely plausible. So yeah... why deal with reality when you can just make shit up about heroes and villains and how the world should work, if only it followed our ideologies? Yep, so much easier and so much more fun to just pull stuff our of asses, isn't it?

This thread is a waste of bandwidth. How about we just let it find the death it so truly deserves?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
WTF is with the right wing? Reps have spent the last several years hating on teachers as lazy leeches who make way too much money and don't do a good enough job, and suddenly they want to give teachers guns? They don't want to pay teachers a wildly outrageous salary of maybe 40-50K/year to teach addition and grammar, but have no problem arming them in the presence of children?

right wing = insane

*applause*

From a psych aspect though, and mind I initially said this in May 1999...
If it gets to the point where the kid is LOOKING for a weapon, it's gone further than we should have ever allowed it to get.

What I don't think the short-sighted instant gratification crowd on both sides of the aisle quite gets is that every penny spent on education, health care, aid to families, whatever - EVERY penny spent on humanity now, pays off in dollars later when we do NOT have to clean up after something like this, do NOT have to throw another kid who coulda-mighta-been-okay in prison - but nobody seems willing to invest in things with a generational payoff.
Well, nobody else, anyways.

-Frem

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:40 AM

America loves a winner!

True statement ? Yep. Bears weight to the conversation ? Not even remotely close to being true.

Cool action figure. Where can I get one ?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And I can even find a headline or two which demonstrates that these scenarios are definitely plausible.

You don't have to, remember the shooter in NY ?
http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Official-9-hit-by-friendly-fire
-3815441.php
Mind you that was in part a failure of training - the one place police forces COULD spend money without me bitching, instead of bigger badder wartoys.

As we discussed, you and me, long ago in another school shooting thread, blazing away indiscriminately is idiotic and dangerous, getting yourself and anyone you can out of range/behind cover is the better option.
That said, an active shooter in arms reach is one of the few situations where I'd engage - which can happen if you're on the other side of a door and they come through it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FREM: The idea that there will be a person who is a good enough shot, cool enough, and in exactly the right place at the right time pre-supposes a population saturated with cool-headed, gun-toting marksmen.

Not gonna happen. Can we set this expectation aside as "too implausible to be of much good" and move on to discussing real stuff, instead of fantasies?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:07 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not gonna happen. Can we set this expectation aside as "too implausible to be of much good" and move on to discussing real stuff, instead of fantasies?

So far we've heard three liberal suggestions.

1. Get rid of all guns. Door to door, take them all sparking a nationwide uprising and civil war.

2. Get rid of some guns. Something that while punishing people unconnected to this crime also has the added benefit of being an action that in no way would have prevented this crime.

3. Go after people like this before they act. Yep, full on police investigations of people who have committed no crime and about whom there is no evidence they can or will commit a crime. Very similar to racial profiling...but its ok if it happens to people you don't like.

Any other bright liberal ideas floating around out there?

For the record, my suggestion is better training, on site security, allowing qualified law abiding teachers to carry guns if they choose, and more local mental health and community support resources (because likely if this guy is on meds, monitored, and kept working he'd have been less likely to attack).

Teachers with guns? Thats just crazy...they're...teachers. Yes, but many are also in the National Guard or have other training and experiance that would make them capable. So if a teacher wants to carry...make them go through a training program and qualify yearly (like cops do). Having this resource would be a great deterent even if only a handful qualify. Its like the Air Marshal program or the idea to arm pilots.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

For the record, my suggestion is better training, on site security, allowing qualified law abiding teachers to carry guns if they choose, and more local mental health and community support resources (because likely if this guy is on meds, monitored, and kept working he'd have been less likely to attack).

Ad banning military/assault weapons and I'm with ya.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thanx, Magons, I didn't think anyone ever noticed that. Not that I care, it just makes me smile when I see someone's responded to a thread I put up, it turns out to be Rap, and I know the response to every other thread I put up that day will be him, too.

It's not always the case, by the way--depends on who's around at the time I put one up. Often it's Anthony or someone else. But I do know that somewhere within the thread Rap will show up with some inane remark about "the left", etc. Some things are very predictable.

Oh, Arlo, it's so great to have you on board. I like your style!

Okay, as in another thread by another gun bunny claiming if one of the teachers had been armed, I will offer the following:

Quote:

A Republican congressman responded to the Newtown shootings by calling for more citizens to be armed. “I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office,” Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas said on Fox News on Sunday, referring to the Sandy Hook principal who was killed while lunging at shooter Adam Lanza. Have armed citizens ever successfully intervened to bring down a potential mass shooter?

Yes, but it’s rare. Often it’s not clear whether brave actions on the part of armed civilians prevented further death. In 1997, assistant principal Joel Myrick used a handgun to stop fleeing school shooter Luke Woodham.* Woodham, who had killed his mother that morning, murdered two students and wounded several others before Myrick, an Army reservist, rammed his car into Woodham’s and then forced him to the ground. At a 1998 shooting at a middle-school dance in a Pennsylvania restaurant, which left one teacher dead and three other people wounded, restaurant owner James Strand took out a shotgun and chased down the teen shooter before persuading him to give up his weapon. After 51-year-old teacher Carl Brown opened fire on a Miami welding shop in 1982, killing eight, a man nearby grabbed his gun, jumped in his car, and chased Brown as he fled on his bicycle. The pursuer fired what he said was a warning shot, striking Brown in the back, and then ran Brown into a light pole. (Dade County State’s Attorney Janet Reno concluded that the pursuer had used “justifiable force.”) Not all interventions are successful: Other armed civilians who have attempted to stop shootings have been left severely injured or have been killed.

An investigation by Mother Jones concluded that no more than 1.6 percent of mass shootings were ended by armed civilians. Academic studies on the issue have not reached consensus. A 1999 study by John Lott of the University of Maryland and William M. Landes of the University of Chicago, often cited by conservatives, found that “shall issue” laws allowing concealed handguns “reduce both the number of [multiple victim] shootings as well as their severity.” However, a review of studies on the topic found the evidence to be inconsistent and inconclusive. A recent Washington Post fact-check similarly found the current evidence to be too murky for representatives like Gohmert to cite as fact.More at http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/12/can_
armed_citizens _stop_mass_shootings_examples_of_armed_interventions.html

And how about a specific example from six yeaers ago, while we're at it

Quote:
TACOMA - Parents of the man most seriously wounded in a shooting rampage at a shopping mall said Tuesday that he drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before being shot. Brendan "Dan" McKown, 38, was hit twice in the abdomen on Sunday, when a gunman opened fire on crowds in the Tacoma Mall.

Doctors at Tacoma General Hospital believe McKown may have suffered permanent paralysis because of spinal damage, hospital spokesman Todd Kelley said.

Witnesses told the family McKown was shot after he pulled the gun.

Roger McKown, 63, of Yelm, called his son a hero and said he has been licensed to carry a firearm for years. "Dan has been one that always believes in protecting other people, and he put his life on the line for other people," he said at a hospital news conference.

The younger McKown has undergone two surgeries and remains on a respirator, the hospital said. Doctors will now try to bring McKown out of an induced coma, and may attempt to remove a ventilator Wednesday, the hospital said. McKown's mother, Patricia Marush, remained in her son's hospital room during Tuesday's news conference.

Three hostages in a mall music store spent hours talking with the gunman, who described to them a life of frustration and humiliation. One of the hostages, Joe Hudson, told The Seattle Times that Maldonado spoke of suicide attempts and said he had taken methamphetamine before he started shooting. The hostages said Maldonado eventually broke into tears, dismantling his weapons and handing them over to the hostages.

Prosecutors said Maldonado was a felon and had a substantial juvenile record, including burglary.More at http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4169986.html

Yeah, a citizen with a gun did a lot of good there, didn't it? But hey, unarmed hostages listening and talking to him...which is NOT to say that that would work any other time, but the contrast is interesting.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:46 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Adam Lanza wasn't connected to the school, so he didn't have the unique opportunity to cause devastation that this man had.

So it could have been worse... but it likely would've been much better. See my explanation in your other thread (don't really know why you started another one).

It's not personal. It's just war.

100,000 people were butchered with knives in Rwanda while under United Nations "Peacekeeper" control.

Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook elementary school.

Adam Lanza had a 3.8 GPA in computer college and was employed by Sandy Hook school to install its computer network.

Police refuse to release security video of Adam Lanza walking into the school alive and alone, with or without a gun. Just like 9/11 when no video showed any alleged hijackers boarding any of the allegedly hijacked airliners on 9/11 per Operation Northwoods (that included US Govt staging false flag sniper shootings in US to blame inncent patsies).

There are no eyewitnesses who saw Adam Lanza shoot anybody.

The shootings were all done by 223 AR15, but Adam Lanza's mother AR15 was never taken into the school and stayed in his mother's car.
http://newtown.patch.com/articles/police-release-identity-of-gunman-27
th-victim-in-sandy-hook-shooting

Adam Lanza does not get a trial to protest his innocence, just like Naval intelligence operative Lee Harvey Oswald.

"I didn't shoot anybody, No Sir! I'm just a patsy!"
-Lee Oswald TV interview

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
FREM: The idea that there will be a person who is a good enough shot, cool enough, and in exactly the right place at the right time pre-supposes a population saturated with cool-headed, gun-toting marksmen.

Not gonna happen. Can we set this expectation aside as "too implausible to be of much good" and move on to discussing real stuff, instead of fantasies?

I know a guy who INSISTS he would have stopped the Aurora shooting, if only he had been there. He's convinced himself that he, a partially disabled senior citizen, could pull off a perfect neck shot (missing the helmet and body armor) in a darkened, smoke filled room, as people climed over each other in a panic. And he's just knows he would have made the shot.

Delusions of Jack Bauer-dom.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

True statement ? Yep. Bears weight to the conversation ? Not even remotely close to being true.

Cool action figure. Where can I get one ?

Rather, not even remotely something you can effectively debate away so you'll pretend you can marginalize it away.

I knew you'd drool for the BWAF. You and it can come up with scenarios where a sole gun-wielding hero is always at the right place at the right time and beats the bad guy(s) to the draw before a single shot is fired at an innocent.

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PIRATENEWS:

100,000 people were butchered with knives in Rwanda ...

.snip.

Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook elementary school.

Adam Lanza had a 3.8 GPA in computer college and was employed by Sandy Hook school to install its computer network.

Police refuse to release security video of Adam Lanza ...

.snip.

There are no eyewitnesses who saw Adam Lanza shoot anybody.

The shootings were all done by 223 AR15, but Adam Lanza's mother AR15 was never taken into the school and stayed in his mother's car.

.snip.

Adam Lanza does not get a trial to protest his innocence, just like Naval intelligence operative Lee Harvey Oswald.

"I didn't shoot anybody, No Sir! I'm just a patsy!"
-Lee Oswald TV interview

Reading your brand of crazy is a hoot. Watch for my income through donation website soon where fantasy crashes into fact with some facts being fantasy, as well. ;0)

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Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:15 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
KPO - nope. You're wrong. See above.

A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing. Period.

So you support the registration of all guns and their owners?

Would a gun owner HAVE to be registered in order to step forward and stop a massacre?

Is that why it hardly ever happens, because there are so few registered gun owners?

Maybe you're right - maybe we need to get that list going ASAP, so we can know who has all the guns, and exactly where they are.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I think it'd be a mistake to make educators be the ones responsible for armed security.

Its not about security...its about giving them a fighting chance. In police and military terms its called hardening the target.

Its very simple. We've made laws that guarrantee to the criminal that if they take a gun to the school for whatever reason...murder, robbery, whatever...they are SAFE and in total control. A gun free zone is a free crime zone.

As someone pointed out, this crazy fella committed 17 crimes before he fired the first shot.
Quote:

I also believe that what happedned in CT. was another failure of local law enforcement. The police there knew this kid. They knew him to be a strange and weird loner. He would stand on a street corner and stare passerbys down. You know, that 100 yard blank stare, and sometimes he would also verbally confront some people. So why didn't the police, in a town with no crime giving them anything else to do, why didn't these police bring this kid in for questioning. Questions about his home life and activities? Why didn't they know his mother had guns and she was taking him to the shooting range often? What is a 20 year-old doing if he's not working or going to college? All the warning signs were pretty clear.

Questioning? For what? And suppose he says 'no thanks, not interested.

"Excuse me son, you've committed no crime and have no record and we have no evidence or suspicion you are going to commit a crime...your under arrest!"

Yeah, that works. There's room in Gitmo, lets just lock him away. Hey, nobody is using those old Jap internment camps...honostly, some of you guys are off the deep end here.

Actually, the examples you just provided show that it CAN be done, and has been done. In fact, it is still being done.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
"Sure, sure, dozens of school shootings done with guns... but hey, look, look over THERE - a single case from nearly a centruy ago. That like, proves that guns aren't an issue and stuff!!!"

Not one gun was fired when that fella blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Gas + crap = boom!

Is that even a crime?

Maybe if the federal building had been surrounded with its own bombs they could have had a fighting chance...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Also your idea about putting more guns in schools is about as stupid as you can get. This is real life, not the movies.

True. Friday's headline: "Lone gunman kills 27 people."

But could have been: "Armed man shot while trying to enter local elementary school."

Funny...one of those headlines would never get national attention.

If a gun is used to prevent crime, its not much of a story, is rarely fully reported...but is a much more common outcome.

I'd love to see your research and notes on this. I doubt you'll post any, but then again, you don't really put much stock in honest evidence in your line of work, do you?

An average of 30,000 people die in gun crimes every year in this country. I doubt a gun is used much more often than that to prevent crime.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:27 PM

Quote:

Its not about security...its about giving them a fighting chance. In police and military terms its called hardening the target.

Its very simple. We've made laws that guarrantee to the criminal that if they take a gun to the school for whatever reason...murder, robbery, whatever...they are SAFE and in total control. A gun free zone is a free crime zone.

So you're suggesting that we should all be able to carry our guns on airliners. Cool. I'm sure nothing could ever go wrong with that plan.

Can I take mine to the football game? Just, y'know... in case?

How about to the courthouse or the state legislature?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by ARLO:
Guess that puts us back to .... not ever knowing.

Actually we do know. We know 27 people died with no chance of defending themselves or others.

Even a small chance is better then NO chance. So guns in the hands of responsible adults could have made a difference. Its a 'could' a mere possibility.

The certainty your looking for is that the lack of guns DID result in those deaths...they happened, for certain...that is what we know.

Those 27 people weren't killed by a lack of guns. They were murdered with guns. What part of that can't you get through your skull? Maybe you need someone to write it down, wrap it around a bullet, and fire it into your head to you can actually get it into your brain that way.

That wasn't a threat. After all, I'm assured guns can't kill anyone, so how could anyone feel threatened?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
KPO - nope. You're wrong. See above.

A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing. Period.

Except that they didn't. Period. Even when there were other armed people on the scene of such horrors, they didn't stop them in nearly 99% of occurrences. Period.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:38 PM

Just as an aside, but wasn't Pat Tillman killed by one of these specially-trained, well-armed citizens while they were trying to stop a massacre?

I probably heard that wrong. After all, I'm assured that such people can only stop this kind of thing, and could never contribute to the piling up of more innocent bodies.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
KPO - nope. You're wrong. See above.

A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing. Period.

'I'm right, you're wrong, ludicrous pronouncement, conversation over'. I'm just curious, do you score points in your own head when you do this?

It's not personal. It's just war.

Score points, take home the trophy and bang the prom queen. Hell yeah!

"...in your own head..."

And just like little Wulfie, you're always the "Hero" of your own fantasies...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A registered gun owner would have stopped or limited just about every mass killing. Period.

If only Adam Lanza's mom had been a registered gun owner, she would have stopped this whole thing... Oh wait.

You fucking moron.

WTF is with the right wing? Reps have spent the last several years hating on teachers as lazy leeches who make way too much money and don't do a good enough job, and suddenly they want to give teachers guns? They don't want to pay teachers a wildly outrageous salary of maybe 40-50K/year to teach addition and grammar, but have no problem arming them in the presence of children?

right wing = insane

Well, it's not like they're going to actually PAY THEM MORE or anything, right? I'm sure they expect the teachers to arm themselves (probably better make it a requirement, just to be sure), pay for their own training, pay for their ammo, pay for any added liability insurance needed, pay for all their permits - concealed carry, open carry, etc. - and then give up any rights to unionize as well.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

If you wanna be tough & deadly, merely buying a gun won't do it unless you want to be a fully trained (potential) killer.

Cite where I ever said anything of the sort ? In fact, I have stated the exact same as you have, that training is necessary for anyone who owns a gun.

And you've also said that everyone should be given a gun by Santa.

You've been characteristically vague on the subject of just who exactly is going to pay for all that training.

I would love to see the reaction from the NRA if they had a sudden influx of 20 million or so black members from the inner cities. I have a feeling the NRA would suddenly start really liking the idea of gun control laws. ;)

Quote:

Quote:

Anything less is fooling yourself into a false sense of security by owning a weapon (or weapons) you cannot use with any expertise or accuracy. In such cases, leave it to the police.

So 20 children can be gunned down, THEN the cops show up. Right.

Again, opening fire on someone who hasn't done anything is generally called "murder". And have you ever known the police to show up BEFORE anything happens? I mean, other than at the donut shop, of course.

Quote:

Quote:
By your posts you clearly seem to be a novice in the area of self defence. I would not trust you with a potato gun, much less a rifle. As much as I think you're a dick, I would be sad to see you injure yourself.

What about self "defense" ?

According to you, anyone who points out typos, spelling, or grammatical errors is petty and childish.

Quote:
No one's asked you to trust me, so put your widdle head to rest, Chrissy.

The only one I'd injure would be the bad guy, punk.

I'd bet money it would go the other way, with you put on the ground as the bad guy's bitch.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not gonna happen. Can we set this expectation aside as "too implausible to be of much good" and move on to discussing real stuff, instead of fantasies?

So far we've heard three liberal suggestions.

1. Get rid of all guns. Door to door, take them all sparking a nationwide uprising and civil war.

Again, anyone seriously suggesting this?

Quote:

2. Get rid of some guns. Something that while punishing people unconnected to this crime also has the added benefit of being an action that in no way would have prevented this crime.

So getting rid of semi-auto weapons and/or high-capacity magazines "in no way would have prevented this crime"? Really" Last time you looked, were the kids shot with a muzzle-loader or a musket? Were they run through with a scimitar? Or were they all shot with semi-automatic guns?

Quote:

3. Go after people like this before they act. Yep, full on police investigations of people who have committed no crime and about whom there is no evidence they can or will commit a crime. Very similar to racial profiling...but its ok if it happens to people you don't like.

Any other bright liberal ideas floating around out there?

For the record, my suggestion is better training, on site security, allowing qualified law abiding teachers to carry guns if they choose, and more local mental health and community support resources (because likely if this guy is on meds, monitored, and kept working he'd have been less likely to attack).

Teachers with guns? Thats just crazy...they're...teachers. Yes, but many are also in the National Guard or have other training and experiance that would make them capable. So if a teacher wants to carry...make them go through a training program and qualify yearly (like cops do). Having this resource would be a great deterent even if only a handful qualify. Its like the Air Marshal program or the idea to arm pilots.

Will this money be taken from the Pentagon's budget? How are you proposing we pay for such programs?

Rappy says Santy Claus should give everybody a gun, and then says that everyone with a gun should have mandatory training. But again, he's shady as fuck on the details as to how it gets paid for.

So much for the myth of fiscally responsible conservatives.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
FREM: The idea that there will be a person who is a good enough shot, cool enough, and in exactly the right place at the right time pre-supposes a population saturated with cool-headed, gun-toting marksmen.

Not gonna happen. Can we set this expectation aside as "too implausible to be of much good" and move on to discussing real stuff, instead of fantasies?

I didn't say that, you are making an assumption here.

All I did was point out that yes, there *IS* a high risk of scoring collaterals even with supposedly-trained (and in reality, often badly trained) "professionals", so Joe Sixpack doesn't get a free pass on that one either.
Factually there *WAS* a CCW holder at that mall shooting, and he made a no-fire decision for exactly this reason, which was probably the wiser course - cause again, the first rule: Do Not Add More Casualties.

Pointing out the logical potential consequences of just blazing away doesn't in any way connect to me promoting it, again, about the only time I WOULD suggest engagement is at arms length with a sure backstop, which as you say is an unlikely possibility.

Although, given the less-lethal nature of a Taser, if there WAS a live shooter I think I would grudgingly acknowledge and accept a certain risk of being hit with one by accident if it meant a strong percentage of bringing down the shooter immediately, as those can lock someone up even FASTER than a bullet, since being shot won't necessarily drop someone immediately.

That *IS* something to think about, also.

-Frem

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Again, anyone seriously suggesting this?

?

Well, it isn't anyone who should be TAKEN seriously, but yeah, I'm pretty sure he means what he's sayin'.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:04 AM

AH, Rappyland. Where someone suggesting limits on Assault Weapons is proof they're trying to "ban all guns". Buffoon.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:21 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

AH, Rappyland. Where someone suggesting limits on Assault Weapons is proof they're trying to "ban all guns". Buffoon.

" Confiscation " is the word used here. Not " limits "

Could it be that you're unaware of the difference between the two ? Would make more sense of your idiotic response.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
AH, Rappyland. Where someone suggesting limits on Assault Weapons is proof they're trying to "ban all guns". Buffoon.

Although, in his defense, Rappy is VERY stupid when it comes to guns, and wouldn't know an assault rifle from that hole he keeps his head in.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

AH, Rappyland. Where someone suggesting limits on Assault Weapons is proof they're trying to "ban all guns". Buffoon.

" Confiscation " is the word used here. Not " limits "

Could it be that you're unaware of the difference between the two ? Would make more sense of your idiotic response.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Funny that you attack me so, while proving that you can't grasp the difference between "assault weapons" and "all guns".

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
AH, Rappyland. Where someone suggesting limits on Assault Weapons is proof they're trying to "ban all guns". Buffoon.

Although, in his defense, Rappy is VERY stupid when it comes to guns, and wouldn't know an assault rifle from that hole he keeps his head in.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

Is there any topic on which rappy isn't extremely stupid?

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:41 AM

America loves a winner!

Storybook -

I've not "attacked" you, in the least. Just shown you the error of your ways.

Also, a gun is a gun. You affixing the word "assault " really doesn't change much , at all.

It's a distinction w/ out any real difference.

And stupid ? That's one who STILL can't admit they were wrong when it comes to confusing 'confiscate' with 'limit'.

Seriously, talk about one's head being in a void surrounded by a sphincter muscle.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Also, a gun is a gun. You affixing the word "assault " really doesn't change much , at all.

It's a distinction w/ out any real difference.

I'll be looking for you driving around town in your formula one race CAR, then. Oh, lookie .... a distinction with a real difference (just like an assault gun versus a hunting rifle).

I notice your previous whine regarding attention to detail in a debate/argument apparently has a double standard (no standard at all, really, where you're concerned). You colored outside the lines, feel free to learn how to admit a mistake. ;0)

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:36 AM