REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Here's one for the gun advocates

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:50
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1560
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Saturday, January 12, 2013 8:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'll post it before one of the usual suspects does (and you KNOW one of them will):
Quote:

The concern in Donnie Herman's voice was clear as day. So was his stress. With two telephones to his ear, he listened to his wife, Melinda, as she fled into an attic of their Loganville home. With her: Her two 9-year-old children and a loaded .38 revolver.

In the house: An intruder with a crowbar.

On another line was the 911 operator Donnie Herman had called for help. Herman's words to his wife, as he sat helplessly, an hour away from the home, were recorded.

"Stay in the attic," he instructed her, calmly.

Then he instructed her to do what was fast becoming a realistic possibility.

"Melinda -- if he opens up the door, you shoot him! You understand?"

Melinda Herman fired a six-shot revolver at the intruder, hitting him five times, in his torso and in his face.

Gun rights groups say this shows that law-abiding citizens should be allowed to buy their weapon of choice and as big a magazine or ammunition clip as they like.

They remind people that Melinda Herman had only a six-shot revolver.

"It's a good thing she wasn't facing more attackers. Otherwise she would have been in trouble and she would have run out of ammunition," said Erich Pratt, director of communications for the Gun Owners of America. http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/us/home-invasion-gun-rights/index.html?h
pt=hp_t2


Gun Owners of America, by the way, is even MORE pro-gun than the NRA, if you can believe it.

Nonetheless, even in this story of heroism, there's a big caveat at the end:
Quote:

The Hermans' story of self-defense is being used by the National Rifle Association and the Gun Owners of America to make their point to the White House and Congress about gun ownership.

But Donnie Herman has told people he's not interested in being a poster boy for anyone. He has not yet responded to CNN's request for an interview with him and his wife.

"My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as a responsible parent and gun owner," Herman told CNN affiliate WSB.

Yet it's unclear whether the benefits of having a loaded and readily available gun in one's home outweigh the drawbacks.

"It's more common for an armed homeowner in the United States to be a victim of suicide, homicide, assault or an accidental shooting than it is for that person to shoot an intruder," according to Dr. Arthur Kellermann, a senior health policy analyst at Rand Corporation, a non-partisan think tank.

Kellermann led research for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the 1990s which found that people who have guns in their homes are nearly three times more likely to be a victim of homicide and nearly five times more likely to commit suicide.

Experts also say that simply having a gun for self-protection does not guarantee safety. They say the fear is that many people will take part in what might be considered a feeding frenzy by purchasing a gun, but not learn how to properly use it.

Sheriff Chapman holds courses for homeowners who want to learn how to safely and properly use a weapon.

"Be proficient with it. Be taught how to use it. Train with it," he said.

"I often tell people, 'If you don't think that you have what it takes to take a human life then don't bother buying one. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your time," he told CNN.

"Don't put it in a drawer and think that's the answer to everything, because it isn't."


My point in all this is just the above. I have little problem with people successfully defending themselves, despite the fact that it seldom actually happens and that the odds of being harmed by a gun in the home are great than those of successfully defending oneself with one. We have several guns in our home, and if someone has one or more and is responsible with it, you'll get no argument from me.

I still maintain that assault weapons are neither necessary nor logical. The shooter at the recent school shooting had a legally-purchased assault weapon of his mother's, so her death and the others come under the heading of "nearly three times more likely to be a victim of homicide". I reject completely the idea that she'd have been in more trouble if she didn't have more than six shots. That's the equivalent of saying that if she hadn't had a gun at all, she'd have been killed. Neither one happened.

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Saturday, January 12, 2013 8:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...aaaand, you KNEW this was coming:
Quote:

Some people are actually claiming the Newtown school shooting was staged by the government and media who are in support of stricter gun control laws. One of those individuals is James Tracy, a tenured associate professor at a Florida university.Video at http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/11/kth-exposing-newtown-conspiracy-
theory/?hpt=hp_t2
, if you can stomach it


Oh, wait, surely PN has already posted this conspiracy theory, I'll bet...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, January 12, 2013 12:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
the odds of being harmed by a gun in the home are great than those of successfully defending oneself with one.


Cites, WITH verifiable data.

I don't buy that any more than the "they'll take it away and use it against you" tripe, which has been incontrivertibly proven to be exactly that.
Besides, if it's so easy, take it back from them!

-F

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Sunday, January 13, 2013 1:18 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Of COURSE you reject it; nobody expected you would ever do otherwise. Nonetheless, for all it's worth:
Quote:

Kellermann states that as an emergency room doctor, he noted that the number of gunowners injured by their own gun or that of a family member seemed to greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true.

1986 Study:

54% of firearm-related deaths occurred in the home where the gun was kept

70.5% of these (firearm-related deaths in the home where the gun was kept) involved handguns

0.5% of these (firearm-related deaths in the home where the gun was kept) involved an intruder shot while attempting entry

1.8% of these (firearm-related deaths in the home where the gun was kept) were judged by police as self-defense

there were 1.3 times as many accidental firearm-related deaths in the home where the gun was kept as self-protection shootings

there were 4.6 times as many criminal firearm-related homicides in the home where the gun was kept as self-protection shootings

there were 37 times as many suicides in the home where the gun was kept as self-protection shootings.

It noted that for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four accidental shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides. (J of Trauma, August 1998. pp: 263-267).

In 1993, Kellermann responded to the criticism of his 1986 paper with a case-control study[9] of the rates of all homicides in the victim's home in Cleveland, Ohio, Memphis, Tennessee, and Seattle over five years, in homes where a gun was kept versus homes where a gun was not. This study found that

23.9% of homicides occurred in the victim's home

35.8% of the controls (homes where there was not a homicide) kept a firearm in their home

45.4% of all victims of homicides in their home kept a firearm in their home

62% of victims of firearm homicides in their home kept a firearm in their home (correction to original paper)

other protective measures, (reinforced doors, deadbolts, burglar alarms, and bars on the windows) were associated with small (about 0.8 times) reductions in risk of homicide in the home

after adjusting for other factors (such as a police-report history of violence in the home, a convicted felon in the home, drug or alcohol abuse in the home, race, etc.) there remained an independent 2.7 times increase in risk of homicide, specifically associated with a firearm in the home; this risk was not attributable to any particular "high risk" subgroup(s) identifiable by the above factors but was evident to some degree in all subgroups

this risk was essentially entirely attributable to being shot by a family member or intimate acquaintance with a handgun which was kept loaded and unlocked in the house

this risk was significantly less than the increased risk due to sociological factors (rental of a home instead of ownership, living alone) but close to that associated with the presence of a convicted felon in the home (see table at right).

These results were interpreted by Kellermann as confirming the 1986 finding that, on net, a firearm in the home represents a greater risk overall than the protection it may offer against intruders, either indirectly or by discouraging potential assaults. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kellermann , with cites



You will, I have no doubt, reject that for whatever reason, but it's as much effort as I'm willing to put into it. I've provided a cites, WITH verifiable data. Much more could be found and many more studies which show the same, but I don't expect you to accept ANY study/data/cite, etc., so that's it for me. I stand by my statement. (Please don't cite the "2.5 million yada yada" study in response, that one's been disproven repeatedly.)

Oh, also,

http://skeptikai.com/2012/07/30/does-owning-a-gun-increase-or-decrease
-safety-science-answers
/

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, January 13, 2013 1:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Right, seems to be that there is a lot of BS presented out there about the liklihood of attack and the usefulness of owning/possessing a weapon in order to protect oneself and ones family.

Now there are places in the world where I would frankly feel safer if armed. I don't live in one of them, and I can't tell from the feedback from you guys whether any of you do either or whether it is just fearmongering initiated by those with a vested and often commercial interest in ensuring that lots of guns are sold and owned.

It seems to me to be kind of a chicken and egg scenario - there is a lot of gun related deaths/injuries therefore ordinary citizens feel the need to own guns to protect themselves. More guns in circulation means more deaths/injuries and so on...

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Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:56 PM

CHRISISALL


MOST people cannot drive their cars correctly, hence enforced insurance. MOST people cannot eat correctly, hence American obesity. MOST people cannot vote correctly, hence Reagan, GW, etc.
It stands to reason then, that MOST people cannot use or store GUNS correctly. So, do we remove all these problems (cars, voting, guns) or do we educate & regulate?

Answer: we do what we always do, piss, moan, and let the powers that be chip away at us, profiting from our fear & ignorance, by whatever means necessary. Which usually means de-or-over regulation depending on the political circumstances.

The solutions are never the solutions.

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Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
It stands to reason then, that MOST people cannot use or store GUNS correctly. So, do we remove all these problems (cars, voting, guns) or do we educate & regulate?


That does seem a problem, lack of proper training and instruction in safe storage and handling.

I do appreciate the cite, Niki - cause the devil is as always, in the details.
For example, no data on how many non-shootings caused by homeowner brandishing firearm, which isn't really possible due to the nature of the study.

There's also other factors involved, such as...
Quote:

this risk was significantly less than the increased risk due to sociological factors (rental of a home instead of ownership, living alone) but close to that associated with the presence of a convicted felon in the home (see table at right).

Which says to me living in a bad neighborhood *by itself* substantially increases your risk far beyond possession of a firearm, and from the stats it looks like most of the folks shot this way, it was someone who knew them, knew they were (potentially) armed, and ambushed them because of it.

As far as suicides go, I can't comment to it cause my own theological beliefs forbid interfering with one save under some very specific circumstances.

I do think your.. uhh.. "conclusion" falls by virtue of being disingenious however, because you provide ZERO evidence on how often people "successfully" defend themselves with one if no shots are fired.

ETA: For Clarity.
(i.e. if you have no value for successful defense whether shots are fired or not to compare it to, then you have no statistical validity to state possession of the weapon makes one less safe than not possessing.)

Ergo I have to reject that conclusion.

HOWEVER, it does bring up, again, the lack of proper safe storage and handling, which *is* something my proposal did address, but making such a requirement for purchase - sure, you're gonna have folks who ignore it, but it would, I think, substantially reduce these numbers.

-Frem

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Monday, January 14, 2013 6:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, Magons, it does depend on where you live...a lot. Places like where Frem lives are obviously dangerous, probably moreso than the "bad areas" around here, but we have them, too. In many rural areas, I'm pretty sure injury from guns is less, as people use them more for hunting, so know how to use them, and I would imagine the crime and suicide are less than in urban areas. Where I live, we rarely have gun violence, but occasionally we do. It all depends.

Frem,
Quote:

ETA: For Clarity.
(i.e. if you have no value for successful defense whether shots are fired or not to compare it to, then you have no statistical validity to state possession of the weapon makes one less safe than not possessing.)


I had absolutely no expectation you would take any of what I posted seriously, and I'll not get into this further, except to say
Quote:

...if you have no value for UNsuccessful defense where shots are NOTfired, then you have no statistical validity to state possession of the weapon makes one more safe than not possessing one.

Your statement and mine are a wash; ergo, that doesn't "prove" your negating the studies. For example, if a woman (or a wife) is raped at gunpoint but doesn't report it (many women don't report rape),or someone is robbed at gunpoint but doesn't report it because he lives in an area where he knows the police will never find the robber, it doesn't make the stats either, or someone is murdered with a gun but the body is never found, or a gang member is injured by a gun but doesn't seek treatment or report it, etc. In other words, not all uses of a weapon are reported, either.

I'm fully aware that any attempt at discussing guns with you logically is futile, to the point where you called us liars for saying we only want to ban assault weapons (which I will never forget). I would never dream of calling you a liar, so that pretty much cinched it for me. I answered your request, end of story for me.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, January 14, 2013 10:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I am completely aware that *I* do not have any data either - no data EXISTS, therefore no conclusions can logically be made considering that lack.

But the principle of it, as expressed, is muchlike saying that owning a car makes you 2.7 times more likely to get in a fatal accident as NOT owning a car, and therefore we should not own cars, it is ridiculous on the face of it.

As for calling people liars, welll.....
You did just try to draw a false conclusion from a perspective where there was not sufficient data to support it, and you *knew* there was not sufficient data when you said it.
What the hell else could I possibly call these things ?

And I find it laughable that you state discussing the matter with ME is logically futile, when it was logic that just tore your contrived and unsupportable conclusion to shreds.

I might be rabid about this, I might even border on "unreasonable", and certainly I'll admit to "impolite" - however logically not a one of you have proved your case, and repeated assertions starting from a dearth of facts, or in direct opposition to them, have done your credibility on this topic not one whit of good.

That said, this ain't *personal*, doll, I still think of you well as a *person*, just virulently disagree with you on this particular topic... something I feel ought to be said cause...
Oh hell, In Vino Veritas after all (I happen to be quite, quite tanked at the moment), mostly cause I just wanna hug you and agree to disagree, okay ?

-Frem

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:43 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hope you don't mind Niki, but I skipped the boring posts you put up. :)

I own a gun. I've NEVER fired it. I've actually NEVER fired a real hand gun. I did invite my bro and stepsis over for dinner one night and he taught me how to take it apart and clean it though.

Honestly, I get afraid when I have it in my hands. Even when I'm SURE it has no bullets in it, I wonder "did I ever load bullets in it, and did I take them out before now????"....

I learned from my step-dad to respect the gun. To never point it at anything you don't intend to kill. I would NEVER point it haphazardly at a friend, just messing around.

It's not a simple .22 like my "soldier" brother who came out of the army owns. It's a compact Colt .45, and you don't want to be on the end of which it means "business"....




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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That said, this ain't *personal*, doll, I still think of you well as a *person*, just virulently disagree with you on this particular topic... something I feel ought to be said cause...
Oh hell, In Vino Veritas after all (I happen to be quite, quite tanked at the moment), mostly cause I just wanna hug you and agree to disagree, okay ?



Huh, you really are. Takes a lot to move a Frem from "ready to fight" status to "ready for hugs." Definitely you wouldn't hold back just because Niki is a girl.

Eh, I guess she doesn't want to argue either. I was looking forward to a drag out too. *disappointment*

I'm not prepared to say one way or another on the cited study, but that Arthur Kellermann's bio gives me the heebie jeebies.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:40 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I'm surprised only that it took them a month to bring up the conspiracy theory. Everything is possible with Obama in the White House. I think they are slipping a bit, only one coo-coo conspiracy theory!.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...aaaand, you KNEW this was coming:
Quote:

Some people are actually claiming the Newtown school shooting was staged by the government and media who are in support of stricter gun control laws. One of those individuals is James Tracy, a tenured associate professor at a Florida university.Video at http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/11/kth-exposing-newtown-conspiracy-
theory/?hpt=hp_t2
, if you can stomach it


Oh, wait, surely PN has already posted this conspiracy theory, I'll bet...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.


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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:15 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Frem,

Stats will be skewed on both sides of the argument. It comes down to personal choice and freedom. Those who feel safe, the responsible gun owner, will choose to own and those that don't, will want perceived safeguards.


SGG

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Frem,

Stats will be skewed on both sides of the argument. It comes down to personal choice and freedom. Those who feel safe, the responsible gun owner, will choose to own and those that don't, will want perceived safeguards.


I realize that, SGG, the problem comes for me when those all but illusory perceived safeguards require stomping all over other peoples rights.

And despite the notion that it's "just this issue", I am in fact that rabid about ALL human rights, without regard to which, something anyone who's been around here long enough would know beyond doubt.

It's just that THIS one seems to have so few sensible defenders, I think in part due to deliberate, purposeful conditioning, by those who see it as an obstacle to their intentions, cause should this one fall, what then would protect the others ?

Were I to toss the same patently thin fiction of "reasonable restrictions" upon freedom of speech, religion, assembly, etc etc...
There'd be soooo much howling, and folks standing behind me, but in this one case, if I must stand alone, then I will - and it does not one good thing for my opinion of those who would stand in defense of other rights so quickly, but this one not at all.

ALL rights, ALL humans - anything less is tyranny.

-Frem

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Kellermann states that as an emergency room doctor, he noted that the number of gunowners injured by their own gun or that of a family member seemed to greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true.



This assumes that all self-defense by firearms ends up with someone being shot.

My one instance of self-defense with a firearm ended up with me asking the guy who was trying to rob me at an ATM to drop his knife and run away. He dropped his knife and ran away. No gun was fired. No one was hurt. Yet it was a successful instance of self-defense.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


me asking the guy who was trying to rob me at an ATM to drop his knife and run away. He dropped his knife and ran away.

Love that story BTW.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem: so you're saying posting something with what YOU consider insufficient data makes me a "liar"? I freely agree to disagree, as there is obviously no option where you're concerned, but don't call me "doll". You have created a rift between us which will not be easily healed; as you have a "thing" about guns, I have an equally strong "thing" about being called a liar. I DO NOT LIE. I may be wrong sometimes, I may be prejudiced on some issues, but I never, ever, deliberately lie. If you recognize that my feelings about being called a liar are EXACTLY as strong as yours about guns, you will begin to understand. And no, calling someone a lair is VERY personal, extremely so.

Yeah, Shiny...I'm pretty sure the conspiracy theory was born the day after Sandy Hook, just didn't get press until later. The leap from Sandy Hook to a call for tighter gun control had to happen almost instantaneously for the conspiracy nuts.

And
Quote:

Those who feel safe, the responsible gun owner, will choose to own and those that don't, will want perceived safeguards.

Oh, my, how beautifully put. Is pretty much bottom line for the entire issue, if you ask me.

Geezer doesn't deserve responding to, given what Kellerman offered was his OWN experience, not an expansion to "all self-defense". But yes, I loved the story too. Would love to have been a fly on the wall. Nonethless, this argument has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand, since nobody is talking about banning GUNS, only semi-automatic assault weapons, which I doubt is what he had.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
nobody is talking about banning GUNS, only semi-automatic assault weapons, which I doubt is what he had.


I don't know why but I assumed it was an Uzi- just seems like a Geezer-friendly weapon...

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
My point in all this is just the above. I have little problem with people successfully defending themselves, despite the fact that it seldom actually happens and that the odds of being harmed by a gun in the home are great than those of successfully defending oneself with one.


You said this.
Not the study, not a story... you.
And you based it on information you were well aware was not even close to sufficient to make that conclusion.
You wanna be angry at me for calling you out for the exact same thing I call anyone and everyone else out for, regardless of "side", you go on and do that.

Call pet peeve all you like, throw the personal outrage card if you wish, this does not change the essential facts of the matter, nor will such things budge me one inch on the cause of human freedoms no matter who dislikes them or stands against them, no matter what ridiculous contrivances and excuses are offered to abridge them, one will always find me a stone wall on these matters, cause despite your ridiculous assertion it's just this one human right, I've always and ever been like this about any and every human right - and you were okay with that completely right up to the moment you decided this one could, or should, be trampled on.

That you'd wanna make it personal, well, that's up to you, believe me I am used to such things happening by now.

-Frem

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