Teens found guilty in Ohio rape case by AURaptor

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mixed feelings. Probably 75% "what you said"--tho' I too doubt any message will be received by testosterone-laden teens (!), but I don't know the facts so don't know if the girl, who was drunk, was forceably raped and would like to see some responsibility put on her and especially her parents!

Nothing is a one-way street in stuff like this, and it pisses me off that on THIS issue, young men are at a disadvantage in a day and age when young women don't have to take responsibility and can then cry rape because of their age. Five years is a big price to pay.

So yeah, I'm glad they got punished, and DEFINITELY I don't know that much about the details, but I've got my question marks.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:59 AM

Niki... if the girl was drunk, and if you look at the details here, apparently utterly passed out, how can ANY responsibility be on her head?? Why does rape need a "forcible" in front of it? It's only rape if you're awake and can prove your resistance with some bruises?

Let's not be blaming the victim here. Let's not play the "she shouldn't have gotten drunk" game, either. Unwise? Yes. Excuse for raping her? No.

I'm seriously uncomfortable when anyone uses the phrase "crying rape". That's exactly the sort of line that makes women not report attacks. Also, the girl's age has nothing to do with this. I am kind of shocked by your comment on this, to be honest.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 8:36 AM

America loves a winner!

I believe the initial video was posted here, a while back. HS punks outwardly bragging about how 'raped' that girl was, laughing and making all sorts of jokes.

Small town in Ohio, which worships it's HS football team, so everyone wanted to ignore the rape of the girl even took place, until the video came out.

And yes, there are flip sides to the coin, where a girl has consensual relations, but then screams 'rape' afterwards, out of embarrassment, or because mommy and daddy found out their princess isn't as pure as the wind driven snow anymore.

This wasn't such a case.

Quote:
I am kind of shocked by your comment on this, to be honest.

Don't fret, Agent. I'm sure Niki was only saying it because I'm the one who posted the story. She says she wasn't up on the particulars.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 8:43 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you both. I stated quite clearly that I'm not conversant with the details, and give what you wrote, I agree with both of you.

Please excuse me if I am still saddened by the loss of five years of those young men's lives; there is NO doubt in my mind they deserve punishment, and severe punishment at that, and possibly the sentences they received. I just find it really sad to think of them incarcerated for so much of their youth because of a stupid action on their part which I'm guessing wouldn't have happened if the adults and the society around them hadn't made them think they could get away with it and it was no big deal. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, because you both know me well enough to know how I feel about rape, abuse of women, and the idea that anyone "cries" rape.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:00 AM

I guess I find it problematic that you would post such an incendiary comment and imply that you have "questions" while at the same time admitting that you are not actually familiar with the case. Why comment at all? Or not take five minutes to read the linked article?

In that light, I find it troublsesome that you go on to imply partial blame on the side of the victim and then go on to focus on false rape accusations by underaged girls.

I don't know how you feel about rape, I can only guess, but this post is not a good source for that, I hope.

I think, while society taught these boys badly, they also ultimately know that rape is wrong. It's the official message, even in a culture that is still steeped in victim-blaming. The word rape was floating around describing this event, in a joking manner at the time it was happening. They are familiar with the concept. Still they did it.

That was not "stupid". Or a "mistake". It was a violation and a crime. Calling it anything else kind of minimizes what that girl, the one who was violated, has to deal with.

I have zero pity for them that they were caught and convicted. And they were not tried as adults, which is all they can ask for.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:08 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I think, while society taught these boys badly, they also ultimately know that rape is wrong. It's the official message, even in a culture that is still steeped in victim-blaming. The word rape was floating around describing this event, in a joking manner at the time it was happening. They are familiar with the concept. Still they did it.

That was not "stupid". Or a "mistake". It was a violation and a crime. Calling it anything else kind of minimizes what that girl, the one who was violated, has to deal with.

I have zero pity for them that they were caught and convicted. And they were not tried as adults, which is all they can ask for.

^ This. Exactly this.

It starts with thinking rape is a joke, something to laugh about or brag about.

Want to help end rape? You don't have to tell girls not to dress "slutty"; you don't have to tell them they're "asking for it"; try instead teaching your boys not to rape. Every time you blame the victim of rape, you are saying that the inherent natural state for men is "rapist". Fuck that. It's an insult to every man who is able to keep his dick under control, and it's a cheap cop-out.

If you want to stop rape, stop raping.

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"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:18 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I guess I find it problematic that you would post such an incendiary comment and imply that you have "questions" while at the same time admitting that you are not actually familiar with the case. Why comment at all? Or not take five minutes to read the linked article?

The irony being is that I have often been a target for making comments and NOT posting links that support my posts. So, as was the case here, I DID post a link, and see what good it did me ?

Quote:

In that light, I find it troublsesome that you go on to imply partial blame on the side of the victim and then go on to focus on false rape accusations by underaged girls.

I don't know how you feel about rape, I can only guess, but this post is not a good source for that, I hope.

I think, while society taught these boys badly, they also ultimately know that rape is wrong. It's the official message, even in a culture that is still steeped in victim-blaming. The word rape was floating around describing this event, in a joking manner at the time it was happening. They are familiar with the concept. Still they did it.

That was not "stupid". Or a "mistake". It was a violation and a crime. Calling it anything else kind of minimizes what that girl, the one who was violated, has to deal with.

I have zero pity for them that they were caught and convicted. And they were not tried as adults, which is all they can ask for.

And here is the whole problem in a nut shell. Niki expresses empathy for the guys who committed the crime, because they're the ones who'll end up having to pay the price. The price of incarceration for a few years, and knowing how much that sucks, those years they'd otherwise NOT have lost, but now will.

I think it ignores the reason as to why they're IN this situation in the first place.

I liken it to how some felt for the Menendez brothers. The two of them murdered their own parents, and many ( mostly females ) expressed sorrow and sympathy for Lyle and Erik, because they both now would have to live the rest of their lives w/ out their parents.

But THEY were the ones who KILLED their own parents.

It seems to me that there's a disconnect going on here, where feeling sorry for the predicament the convicted parties find themselves in, when it was by their actions they're facing the future which is in front of them now.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:40 AM

HKCAVALIER

Why do we mitigate the violence of the rapist based on the behavior of the victim? How do the two things have anything to do with one another? A woman on the street holds her purse out from her body momentarily and some guy grabs it--is his defense really going to be, "You shoulda seen! She was holding it right out there for anyone to take!!!" And the judge is gonna say, "Hrm, guy's got a point..." Or someone leaves their door unlocked, does the burglar get to plead not guilty because he just walked in unopposed? Nonesense. We know what a house is and we all know we're not supposed to violate it without permission. When are we going to notice that women, by their nature as human beings, are deserving of respect and sovereignty over their own goddamn bodies???

It is so unutterably shitty what we as a society put woman through to mitigate the hateful behavior of our men and boys. That's what it is: hateful.

Rape is hate. Long before it gets expressed in the form of a sexual assault it is hate. No less hate if it's date rape or a stranger at gun point; neither of these acts is spontaneous. Rape is rehearsed and fantasized long before the rapist takes action. No amount of vulnerability on the part of any victim justifies or mitigates this hatred that the rapist has nurtured in himself probably for years before going through with it.

I've been in the same room with any number of passed out females over the span of my life and never once did I even fantasize about forcing myself on them in that state. Because I don't walk around hating women and wanting to hurt them. Does that make me special? Some kind of moral paragon? Fuck that. It just means I have empathy for my fellow human beings.

And all we as a society have come up with to do with the fucked up little boys who do this shit is lock them in a room. Dump them in a cage with a lot of other boys just like them so they can perfect their lack of empathy into stone-cold sociopathy. It's all a grand catastrophe until a critical mass of human beings on this planet learn that empathy is as necessary to the life of our species as food and shelter.

When is THAT going to happen? And, for all you non-anarchists out there: what LAW is going to make people empathic? What amount of punishment by the state is gonna make criminals more empathetic?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:41 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Interesting how this took off, and how STRONGLY the responses are accusing me of this and that. Symptom of RWED, I know, but interesting nonetheless. If any would care to read what I actually wrote and respond to THAT, it would improve things. I condemn rape in the strongest terms and have always done so in the past. I said I didn't know all the facts (it's not the kind of story I dwell on and the actual story was some time ago; I probably didn't pay it a lot of attention even at the time, aside from being disgusted that it happened again, as it does so often). That I do not know all the facts does not mean I can't have questions and opinions, despite some believing that not to be true.

I might mention the following: "The woman said her daughter will persevere and move on, adding that she has pity for Mays and Richmond." http://www.wbaltv.com/news/national/Two-teens-found-guilty-in-Ohio-rap
e-case/-/9379440/19348558/-/3xrofb/-/index.html#ixzz2NpGyASSY

So the mother is allowed to understand the grays and have pity, but I'm not? Got it.

Also note from the same source:

Quote:
The case of the two Steubenville football players attracted the attention of bloggers -- and even the loosely organized hacking group, Anonymous -- who questioned everything from the behavior of the football team to the integrity of the investigation.

So all those are allowed to have questions, but I'm not? Got it.

Also:

Quote:
Bob Fitzsimmons, the attorney for the girl, said his client was doing well. "I think she's really happy that this is over and, remember, she is a 16-year-old girl still and she's a high school student," he said. "She just wants to get back with her normal life, as does the family. It is a big relief to her at this point."

Probably a waste of time, but boy, maybe we could learn a lot by not leaping down one another's throats maybe QUITE so quickly, or QUITE so vociferously. Or not. My statements have been clear, and I've agreed with those who responded to my initial post. I also agree with everything that's been written since, except that which pertains to me.

Rape is horrible. The results of rape are horrible. FAR more should be done to help those who HAVE been raped, including not putting THEM on trial and not forcing THEM to bear the product of the rape. STOPPING rape isn't something I pay much attention to, because it's never happened in the history of mankind and never will. I'm not going to rant about it, nor am I going to close my eyes to the grays of the world. Hang me in effigy, have fun, I don't give a shit. NOTHING is a one-way street.

And

Quote:
The two will be required to register as sex offenders and undergo treatment while in detention. Lipps said he would postpone a hearing into which sexual offender registration category they will be classified until the end of their incarceration.
.....
The victim testified Saturday that she remembered little about the night because she was drunk. She drank at least four shots of vodka, two beers and some of a slushy mixed with vodka, a 16-year-old witness said. The girl testified Saturday that she remembered drinking at the first big party of the night and then holding Mays' hand as she left with him, Richmond and others. The next thing she remembers, she told the court, is waking up in the morning naked on a couch in an unfamiliar house.
.....
According to prosecutors, each of them penetrated the victim's vagina with his fingers, an act that constitutes rape under Ohio law if it is not consensual.

No. I don't care what anyone says or thinks, I will NEVER refuse to see the grays in everything. My pity goes out to the girl, the boys, all the parents, and the community, all of whom have suffered. My anger goes out to any who don't see this as a horrible happening and any who joke about any of those involved, excuse what happened on anyone's part, and any who think these things are easy OR cut-and-dried.

Life is complex. Many have been hurt. The ONLY positive that can possibly come from this is if any young men, young women or parents learn something from it which prevents it happening any other single time.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:51 AM

America loves a winner!

Specific to this case, I think most would be appalled at the comments and attitudes shown on the video w/ regards to a 16 year old girl, so drunk that she's passed out, and the things which were done to her.

Somethings, Niki, aren't so complex. Wrong is wrong.

Thankfully for these punks, she wasn't "dead"

Published on Jan 2, 2013

Michael Nodianos is the speaker in the video.

Drunk Steubenville High School athletes making jokes about the rape of a 16 year old girl, whose violation was tweeted, pics posted to social networks and more back in August

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:02 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Cav, I respectfully disagree that it is sociopathy. Sociopathy is much more complex than what these boys did. It is my opinion that society has always had a mentality that women are "less than", that "testosterone rules", and on and on in so many ways, and that creates a mentality, an attitude--an attitude reflected by our very legislators, even some females, if you hadn't noticed recently. Yes, some of us are blessed with empathy and wouldn't dream of doing what they did. Not all of us are, and the grays of peer pressure, athletic group mentality, local hero worship, parental mentality and SO many other things come into play in situations such as this, I cannot feel as you do. I know I did things as a teenager which disgust me now, I know not all teenagers use their brains, MOST teenage brains aren't fully formed and young people do very stupid things, especially when drunk and especially in groups.

Forceable rape is hate, I don't disagree. But there's more to it, and this wasn't "coitus", from what the evidence has shown. In a world where young people don't consider anything BUT coitus as "sex", I wouldn't begin to try and judge them from my own beliefs.

"Dump them in a cage with a lot of other boys just like them so they can perfect their lack of empathy into stone-cold sociopathy." I say bullshit. I don't know these young men; neither do you. You may be right, but you may also be wrong, and they may suffer a lot from being incarcerated with others who actually ARE sociopathetic or fucked up or whatever, and they'll be labeled as sexual predators for the rest of their LIVES.

It's amazing to me to find myself in this argument...it's not a debate, or the nuances would come into play, so it's an argument. I am arguing for PERSPECTIVE, nothing else, for the fact that there are otherwise perfectly sane, civilized human beings who do something wrong and pay a high price for it--BOTH the girl and the boys in this case--and that I REFUSE to lose my humanity because of the word "rape".

There's a blindness here that surprises me. Can NOBODY here see the grays? Can NOBODY get past the horror of rape and see that this is not a matter of some monsters grabbing a woman off the streets and physically, horribly assaulting her?

I think I'll leave this thread. It's actually gotten--the only word I can come up with is "ridiculous"--but not in the humorous sense at all. I will NOT condemn as monsters two people I've never met and know nothing about in a case where there are quite sufficient grays, merely on the basis of the fact they've been found guilty by a state law of "rape". It's in its own way almost as bad as if I WERE excusing them by saying the girl was a slut or something, I'm amazed nobody can see that. I've not ONCE "excused" them, and I'm quite in agreement that they are guilty and should be punished. But is it right to brand them monsters??? Are you nuts? Or just letting your emotions make you blind and deaf to your brain? I don't mean any offense by that, but damn, I find the instant jumping to "sociopath" and the intensity of the responses very saddening. That's all I have to say.

ETA: Wrong is definitely wrong. What they did is wrong, there is no question. But Rap, to go from "wrong" to monsters? That's pretty much what they're being painted as. They're still human beings, and I won't see them as otherwise, however much I hate WHAT THEY DID. I can applaud that they are punished, I HEARTILY condemn what they did, but I refuse to make them the same as some adult sexual pervert who soberly calculates how to pull someone off the street and violently rape them. That's where we diverge, apparently everyone in this thread and I.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:.

There's a blindness here that surprises me. Can NOBODY here see the grays? Can NOBODY get past the horror of rape and see that this is not a matter of some monsters grabbing a woman off the streets and physically, horribly assaulting her?

This isn't about a general discussion of the over all topic of 'rape', Niki.

Did you WATCH the video ?

Sometimes, it really is black or white, right or wrong.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:19 AM

Niki,

I understand you felt picked on in this thread, but I was under the impression that I did reply to what you wrote. I may have misinterpreted, but I don't think you first post necessarily made it difficult to glean "I didn't read the article but I'm going to question the outcome anyway".

If that's not what you meant, all the better. I obviously don't think you support rape, for what it's worth. I was shocked, as I wrote, because what I read in your post seemed strange.

But I also find it utterly irrelevant that the girl drank all this alcohol voluntarily. That she held hands with her rapist when she was still conscious enough to do so. Is it wrong of me to find it troubling that what you wrote seemed like victim-blaming to me and that I reacted accordingly? To avoid misunderstanding you, what are the grey areas you speak of?

The pity expressed by her mother, in the article you link:

Quote:

"Human compassion is not taught by a teacher, a coach or a parent. It is a God-given gift instilled in all of us," the victim's mother said after court was adjourned. "You displayed not only a lack of this compassion, but a lack of any moral code."

The woman said her daughter will persevere and move on, adding that she has pity for Mays and Richmond.

Read more: http://www.wbaltv.com/news/national/Two-teens-found-guilty-in-Ohio-rap
e-case/-/9379440/19348558/-/3xrofb/-/index.html#ixzz2NpPl45mi

Can we pity these boys for lacking a sense of human empathy that would lead to taking these actions? In a way, yes. Can we pity them for having to pay the price of these actions? I honestly don't know. They were not passive agents in this. They took these actions and made horrible choices. They were not 5 and 6, they were about 16 years old. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they just thought they would get away with that. To me, that's not a mitigating factor.

To me, the best part is that they will undergo treatment while serving their sentences. I hope it's effective and will leave them with an understanding of why what they did was wrong and how to be a better person, how to live with empathy and dignity, when they get out to face the vast majority of the rest of their lives. (I may be daydreaming here.)

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

It's amazing to me to find myself in this argument...it's not a debate, or the nuances would come into play, so it's an argument. I am arguing for PERSPECTIVE, nothing else, for the fact that there are otherwise perfectly sane, civilized human beings who do something wrong and pay a high price for it--BOTH the girl and the boys in this case--and that I REFUSE to lose my humanity because of the word "rape".

I don't think they are monsters. I actually agree with you that these boys responded to a culture that objectifies women, and that lack of empathy extended far beyond these two: toward those who didn't help her, toward those who shared the pictures, etc.

What I don't buy that they might not have considered this to be sex or an assault. I just really, really don't buy that on no level did they realize that what they were doing was wrong, even if they were "only" using their fingers, not their penises to penetrate this unconscious girl.

I'm not sure how to read that last sentence, though. Are you saying the girl did something wrong or just that she also paid a high price for what they boys did wrong?

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:04 AM

HKCAVALIER

Aw, hell, Niki. You're paying less attention to what I've actually said than anyone is paying to your words. I never said the boys were "monsters," I never said that these two boys were sociopaths, and I challenge you to show me where I have been less than compassionate toward their plight.

When I wrote "Dump them in a cage with a lot of other boys just like them so they can perfect their lack of empathy into stone-cold sociopathy," I meant it when I said "OTHER BOYS JUST LIKE THEM," that is: children, irresponsible and not fully formed. We dump them in the prison system, a cold place where their healthy and natural vulnerabilities will be attacked at every opportunity and their burgeoning lack of empathy will, in the fullness of time, blossom into something much harder and intractible. That's the prison system. Maybe these boys will be lucky and find a way to hold onto their humanity in there, but the destruction of their humanity is what the prison system was designed to deliver. Prison is wrong is what I'm saying. It's a violation. Like rape, prisons are also born of hatred, and promote hatred. That's what I was saying.

Whatever "greyness" there is in these boys, and there surely is, it's got nothing to do with the girl. She may have "greyness" in her as well--self-hate, self-neglect, various addictions, etc. but none of that mitigates the actions of the boys. But again, that doesn't mean the boys are monsters, only that they are the authors of a really, really bad thing. I grant that they may not be in a position to understand just how bad, but that doesn't make it any better.

So, you say "forcible" rape is hate. But ANYTHING we do against another person's will is forcible, so I don't know what distinction you're making with "forcible." If it's rape, it's forcible.

The rest of your refusal to lose your humanity and the blindness you see on all sides is lost on me.

And finally, do you know how utterly rare "some adult sexual pervert who soberly calculates how to pull someone off the street and violently rape them" is? If we could get rid of all but those kinds of rapes, rape would be reduced by 97% in this country. The overwhelming majority of rapes are perpetrated indoors, either in the home of the victim or that of a friend and by someone the victim knows or with whom the victim has consented to share some level of intimacy. "Date rape" doesn't mean a sexual encounter that somehow transformed into rape. Date rape happens when the girl thinks she's on a date and she's wrong.

All rape, even the rape perpetrated by these boys is calculated, planned, and executed. Sure, they were drunk and that made everything easier but it didn't create the calculations, nor the plans.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:22 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
they'll be labeled as sexual predators for the rest of their LIVES.

It's amazing to me to find myself in this argument...it's not a debate, or the nuances would come into play, so it's an argument. I am arguing for PERSPECTIVE, nothing else, for the fact that there are otherwise perfectly sane, civilized human beings who do something wrong and pay a high price for it--BOTH the girl and the boys in this case--and that I REFUSE to lose my humanity because of the word "rape".

There's a blindness here that surprises me. Can NOBODY here see the grays? Can NOBODY get past the horror of rape and see that this is not a matter of some monsters grabbing a woman off the streets and physically, horribly assaulting her?

Niki, I more often than not respect you and find your thoughts compelling. However, in this instance, I can't really understand where you're coming from.

There are instances where I think it is wrong for teenagers to be given the sexual predator label. A good example would be a teen taking nude photos of themselves and being convicted of child pornography. In this instance, though, I don't think it is wrong. Sexually violating someone without their consent is rape, and someone passed out from alcohol cannot give consent of any kind (regardless of age, really.) I don't see the "nuance" or the "grays" in this situation. People who would behave this way are not "perfectly sane, civilized human beings" because that is not the way civilized human beings treat each other. So they didn't grab her off the streets, they still horribly assaulted her. They sexually violated her without her consent. They raped her. It's not just some word that everyone is worked up about, but the act it represents. And I don't think the word is making anyone lose their humanity, because there is clearly a lot of empathy going on here. What you appear to be arguing for is more empathy for the boys who are going to prison, rather than all the empathy being directed at a girl who was raped. I, personally, think they should be going to prison. I don't empathize at all with their motives or their plight, because they did something that was atrociously wrong, which they knew was wrong because they talked about what they were doing. The potential consequences are hardly a secret. They have no excuse.
Also, I don't think anyone here has said they were monsters or sociopaths, only that prison tends to foster sociopathic behavior. Which is true, but that's a problem with the system that needs to be fixed, it doesn't mean these boys should not go to jail. Unless there's a better way to prevent them from continuing their behavior? Perhaps there are ways, but I really don't think they'd be considered better. Paralysis, for example, would be an excellent way to keep rapists from raping, but that probably falls under the heading of 'cruel and unusual.'
I don't think there's anything to "get past" in this conversation. These guys did something wrong, with full knowledge of what they were doing. Could it have been worse? Sure. Things can pretty much always get worse, but that doesn't mean something that is not the worst possible crime should be downplayed, nor that the perpetrators are both sane and civilized.
I know as well as anyone that the teenage brain is not to be trusted, but I've also been around plenty of teenagers who did not rape me. And maybe, just maybe, incarceration will give their brains some time to fully develop, while keeping them from doing anything else horrible, and they'll come out of it as men changed for the better. Stranger things have happened.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:30 AM

I feel ya, HKCav - as you've more or less said my piece for me, there's one other factor I wanna mention here, whether it was present in this case or no.

The complicity of those who turn a blind eye or refuse to step in about such things.

I've carried more than one girl to their hotel room and locked them in during Conventions cause they were passed the hell out or damn near it, and I kept the damn room keys on my person till they were sober enough to demand them back - I ain't no moral paragon neither, but you can't just leave someone in a situation like that without some responsibility as a fellow human being, in my opinion.

Sure they might be pissed at you about it, but given the potential harm which could come of it otherwise, I think that a small price to pay.

-F

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:30 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rap, you still don't get it, which doesn't surprise me. If you were able to see the grays in life, you'd see things a lot differently on many subjects. It's not ABOUT right and wrong--what they did was wrong, wrong, wrong, end of story. It's about HOW MUCH WE HATE THEM for what they did, whether we make monsters out of them, blame them entirely and don't think beyond that, or realize that there were many things at work which CAUSED them to do with they did; punish them, of course, but recognize that they're human beings, young, stupid, unthinking human beings, not monsters to be hated and thrown away. I won't try further, I don't think you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Agent, you've pretty much got it. Not "I didn't read the article but I'm going to question the outcome anyway", more simply that I have compassion for young people who will lose part of their lives, whatever they did.

Beyond that, I don't find it irrelevant that the girl drank what she did--I DO NOT THINK IT MAKES WHAT THEY DID HER FAULT, okay, can we leave that one behind? I WISH (nothing more, because I know hoping is useless) that young people had some inkling that getting totally plastered more often than not leads to bad things, even if just a headache or throwing up, but quite potentially to something worse like a drunk-driving accident, doing something sexual they wouldn't if not totally plastered, etc. NOT THAT SHE DID...but how many DO? How many have sex when drunk and pay that price? Only in that respect do I mean it's relevant, not about blame. This probably gets into my feelings about alcohol, and what I hear/read about young people and what they do with alcohol, some of which makes my hair stand on end.

It's not wrong that you reacted to what you THOUGHT I was trying to say, I only wanted you to understand that's NOT what I was saying, and that hopefully you'd see your reaction came from a "seemed", not what was.

"Can we pity these boys for lacking a sense of human empathy that would lead to taking these actions?" No, not what I meant. I don't pity them for "lacking empathy", I pity them for what they will suffer, both incarceration and lifetime labeling as a sex offender. To me it's really sad that those disagreeing with me can't dredge up enough human pity to feel empathy for these boys. They did a horrible thing, NOBODY is arguing about that. That doesn't make them monsters: THAT's my point. It's all about hating what someone DOES, but not hating, tossing in the garbage, the person themselves. Yes, they need counseling, good gawd do they! They need TEACHING, which obviously was missing before. While the majority of us wouldn't have done what we did, exactly how much real "empathy" did any of us have as teenagers??? I know, I was at the other end of it, I was tall, skinny, wore thick glasses and braces in high school...how much empathy do you think I got? What kind of horrid things do you think were said to me, how much do you think my life was dogged in school by the "in crowd"? Even worse, how much empathy for other outcasts do you think I HAD?? Empathy doesn't come easily to teenagers; peer pressure, parental attitudes, pressure to succeed, wanting to be loved, raging hormones--so much goes into how a teenager thinks (if you can call it that), that empathy is all too often the last on the list. Jezus, I'm 65 and I can remember, I'm amazed you guys can't!

"I actually agree with you that these boys responded to a culture that objectifies women, and that lack of empathy extended far beyond these two: toward those who didn't help her, toward those who shared the pictures, etc." Yes, yes, and yes. JUST the grays, just all the nuances that go into something happening, that's my point. Of COURSE they knew it was sex, I never said otherwise. Of course they knew they were taking advantage of someone...whether "assault" or not, given today's young people's attitudes toward sex, I can't say. But they knew it was wrong...and apparently those around them were doing it, or watching it, or agreeing with it, so "wrong", sure, but so is getting drunk, so is joy riding, so is shoplifting...what degree of "wrong" did they think it was? I don't know.

"that she also paid a high price for what the boys did wrong", obviously (or obviously to me anyway). I feel empathy for all of them, for the girl, who suffered something awful--not just what happened, but EVERYTHING afterwards, publicly and privately--for the parents (at least those who didn't foster the attitude which contributed to what happened), for the community and the shame they are feeling, for all the other kids involved who look back and feel sick about it, for the boys who'll be "sexual offenders" for the rest of their lives and all the myriad ways that will affect them.

You know what's funny? None of you, nor I, actually know a damned thing about these boys except this one incident. Yet from this one thing, you can leap to "I may be daydreaming here" that they'll learn anything from this, that there's any hope they'll ever learn "how to be a better person, how to live with empathy and dignity". If they were hardened criminals, I'd share your skepticism; but from this one, unquestionably horrible act, you all leap to making them unrepentant monsters--you say you don't see them as monsters, but that statement begs to differ. At 16 they did something really awful; that's it, they're trash, throw them away. I'm just not that quick to do so, I guess that's all. And you folks can't understand why, and that saddens me.

Where's my fellow buddhist when I need him? Isn't there anyone who understands that a person isn't wholly formed at 16 and might quite possibly go on to grow and learn and be a decent human being? Wow.

Oh, damn and fuck. I'm getting caught up here too long again, just what I didn't want to have happen by returning. Now there's Cav's post, and all that brings up. Let's see if I can be short and then get OUTTA here...

Yup, Cav, I misunderstood. Every response seemed the same, so I "read" yours the same way. What you said, in SPADES!!!

Down to the "forceable" thing. There's a fine distinction for me between "force" when it comes to someone laying there unconscious and someone fighting back, can we just leave it at that? Yes, what we do to someone against their will....etc., no argument. But I DO see a difference between someone being held down, screaming for help, and how a drunken teenager might view an unconscious girl. Let's just agree to disagree. I just think that it might well have been different if she'd been awake and looking at them and screaming--DOESN"T MAKE WHAT THEY DID ANY LESS AWFUL, just means I don't see what they did as representational of "hate". Lack of empathy, lack of sense of her as a person, whatever, do you understand? So take away the sober pervert and say I contrast these boys with an adult male violently raping a screaming woman, does that make it clearer?

I can't judge if what they did was "calculated" or planned, I pretty much doubt it was. Buncha drunken kids fooling around, one gets bold enough to put his hands where they shouldn't be, it takes off...I don't know enough and neither do you. To me, if they'd PLANNED to assault her, why wouldn't they have raped her? How many hormonally-charged, drunk teenage boys would have stopped at what they did? Did anyone wonder about that?

Rose, you don't get it either. I never said it was WRONG they should be labeled sexual predators, any more than I think it's wrong they be punished. What nobody is getting is that I feel PITY for these people because they will suffer, NOT that they shouldn't suffer! I can have the humanity to feel sad anyone suffers, for any reason, without thinking they shouldn't suffer. Jeeezzz!!!

"What you appear to be arguing for is more empathy for the boys who are going to prison, rather than all the empathy being directed at a girl who was raped"--NO! I'm not arguing, in the first place, I keep trying to EXPLAIN. And what I'm saying is I (just me, get it?) feel empathy for BOTH, not that it should be portioned out more one way than the other or who deserves it more, just that I WISH we could feel pity for ALL who are suffering because of this. Crap.

I've GOT to fucking stop, this is absurd. If nobody gets what I'm trying to make, screw it, I tried. I made the mistake of thinking, for just a second, about those boys being tossed in with others who most likely did things at least as bad, maybe many times, instead of going home, going to school, then coming out and having to live with being labeled the same as some pedophile or brutal rapist the rest of their lives, and feeling sorry for them. They're human beings; it saddens me. I furthered that mistake by making a comment that I pity them. How stupid of me. Even more stupid to keep on trying to explain and wasting so much time. Duh!

ETA: Shit. I just got it. It's buddhism...you're not buddhists. We learn--we TRY to learn--we TRY TO HAVE empathy/pity/whatever you want to call it, for ALL. For everyone, however good, however bad, whatever they did--we may hate like HELL what they DID, but we try to always, always see everyone as a human being, to try to imagine what they feel. We try to remember that we're fallible, we have faults, similar faults, different faults, but we're not "better than" anyone else. Doesn't mean not punishing, just purely, simply, nothing more than "I can imagine what that person will go through and it makes me hurt for them". Just not hating, not de-humanizing. That's all.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:42 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Rap, you still don't get it, which doesn't surprise me. If you were able to see the grays in life, you'd see things a lot differently on many subjects. It's not ABOUT right and wrong--what they did was wrong, wrong, wrong, end of story. It's about HOW MUCH WE HATE THEM for what they did, whether we make monsters out of them, blame them entirely and don't think beyond that, or realize that there were many things at work which CAUSED them to do with they did; punish them, of course, but recognize that they're human beings, young, stupid, unthinking human beings, not monsters to be hated and thrown away. I won't try further, I don't think you can understand what I'm trying to say.

I never once brought up the issues of 'hate' or called them 'monsters'. Worst I did was call them punks, and to be honest, that's being charitable.

They're human beings with free will, and the ability to learn. Thing is, they KNEW this was wrong, a priori, and did it anyways. Raped her, carried her around like a game trophy, took pics and posted it on the internet.

THEY DID THIS ! Not from peer pressure of being adored football stars, not because of their buddies, who cheered them on, they chose to do this, and then bragged to the world about it.

Niki, when you take the responsibility of ones actions out of their hands, when you make them no longer accountable, this is the result.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:58 PM

Thanks for responding, Niki.

To clarify: My "daydreaming" comment was actually questioning whether prison, even a juvenile facility, can achieve this sort of thing, not whether these boys are capable of learning.

I guess we do misunderstand each other.

I guess where we mainly truly disagree is whether or not their teen-aged brains and the culture they are immersed in allow them to be fully culpable. I see where you are coming from there, but I simply lean toward them being mature enough to be aware that what they did was illegal and a form of assault at the time they were doing it, and choosing to do it anyway. I have trouble doubting they would have gone on to do this again if opportunity arose, no regrets, and thus posed a serious danger to other women for some time to come, especially if remaining in a position of privilege.

And I cannot pity them for something I think they fully deserve. You can and that's your prerogative, but you shouldn't presume that those who cannot think these boys are monsters beyond redemption. They simply have not yet attained redemption.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:00 PM

Niki,

I have been following this case quite closely since December. I joined an Ohio football chat group which has had a thread going since the first inklings of this came out last summer. Through that site I've gotten links to just about everything about this case as well as quite a bit of insight from the posters who live in Steubenville.

This was more than drunk teens fooling around. The victim had broken up with one of the boys who got immunity for testifying. That boy and one of the victim's "friends" brought her to this party for the express purpose of humiliating her. It was pre-arranged. (The "friend" testified as well, against the victim.)

This group of boys call themselves the "rape crew". They have been doing this kind of thing for a very long time. Tracy Lords grew up in Steubenville. She was raped when she was 10, by a 14 year old, and her mom was raped too. This behavior has been aided and abetted by the so-called adults in the town: the parents, the police, the coaches, the lawyers. The rape last August started at an assistant coach's house, it also visited the house of the DA, whose son is one of the "rape crew". This DA tried to talk the victim out of pressing charges, and only removed herself from the case 10 days later, after a great deal of evidence had been "lost". The head football coach (who is close buddies with the sheriff, whose brother runs the local football betting pool and, according to Anonymous, deals a lot of drugs) joked about the rape party, told the boys he'd take care of it, and later threatened a NY Times reporter.

If you want to know any more about the institutional sickness of this town (and lets not fool ourselves - this town isn't the only one in the US where this shit happens!) read this thread from the start:

http://www.jjhuddle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270187

ETA: I think there's a lot of blow back yet to come regarding the adults involved... My god, they haven't even fired the coach yet! He fucking knew there was a heavy drinking, drugging, and sexing party (which was really a raping party but I don't think this man recognizes that his "boys" can be blamed for any such thing) and he let all the boys suit up and play anyway. At least, until two were arrested.

I don't think I can sufficiently expand on the horror I feel for all these victims, for the girls who've had to grow in such a corrupt environment. I empathize, I understand. I've been in those kinds of towns. I fled.

But oddly, what is fascinating me more about this is what the hell is happening in the minds of these boys. I don't think their conscience minds had any inkling that what they were doing as wrong, because I think they have behaved like this all their lives and it has been actively supported by their community. This is just what happens to girls who get "sloppy" and "earn" it. Thank goodness these boys were finally caught, and thank goodness the spotlight is on the whole town. This is a sickness that needs treatment.

And here's where I understand your "empathy", Niki. I certainly feel no pity for these boys, nor any concern for what they will be losing in the scant 2-3 years they're in Juvie. They NEED that, and to my mind they could have gotten a lot more. But never mind what they deserve - what they got might save them fro truly becoming monsters. They needed to be forced to SEE what they've been doing.

What I've been thinking about, a lot, is how many men are out there, right now, grown men with jobs and wives and children, who have a memory tucked away of the passed out sorority girl or the drunk classmate or the girlfriend who was being a tease so she needed that "push" to get her to put out. You know there tons of these men. 54% of rapes are not reported, and most happen by a man who knows the victim.

Are all these men completely free of morals? Do they develop a conscience as they age, after they marry, after they have a daughter and watch her walk out the door on her first date?

How do these rapists handle the memory of what they did? Do they block it out? Do they rationalize it, convince themselves they did nothing wrong? Does the guilt creep through anyway, expressing itself as rage, blame, abuse of their families, of themselves?

What I'm trying to get at, is that this way sick whacked out system that's been thriving in Steubenville has more victims then the girls. Boys who grow up like this are also destroyed. They perpetuate the sickness.

BTW, my view is heavily weighed by a friend of mine, who's a therapist. She was treating a man who beat his wife for years, and she left him. After much treatment, he met a woman and dated her for several months. It didn't work out, but he was elated by it because he was able to treat a woman well. I hadn't thought of that side of things. My personal history is all victim, and never thought of the struggles faced by an abuser.

Please - that is not at all to excuse abuse. Believe me! I walk around with plenty of anger about that. Woe to anyone who tries to abuse me these days, because I have plenty of unsettled rage to hand out!

I don't pity these boys. But I do want to understand them. I think it's important.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:06 PM

Oh yeah, a lot more happened here then a few overly-drunk, overly-frisky boys.

(Reuters) - Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said on Sunday he would seek a grand jury investigation to look deeper into the events surrounding the rape of a 16-year-old girl while she was in a drunken stupor last summer at a party in Steubenville, Ohio.

A juvenile judge on Sunday found high school football players Trent Mays, 17, and Ma'lik Richmond, 16, delinquent in the sex assault of the girl in the early morning of August 12 when witnesses said she was too drunk to move or speak.

DeWine said that while they had conducted an extensive investigation, 16 people, mostly juveniles, had refused to cooperate and they could not bring a finality to it without convening a grand jury.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-ohio-grandjuryb
re92g09s-20130317,0,7759608.story

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Just - wow. A whole subculture of rape involving police, DAs, coaches, parents, and teens. It boggles my mind, and makes me wonder where you grew up. And how many places are there like that.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:24 PM

More detail, if your blood isn't boiling enough...

A boy a took a video of the "digital penetration". The next day, when the twitter chatter between all the boys went from bragging to worry about being caught, he deleted his video.

A few months later, two boys had been arrested but the police follow up was, to put it mildly, weak. A blogger did all she could to keep the story alive, including posting tweets she'd gotten snapshots of.

http://prinniefied.com/

The boy and his parents sued the blogger for defamation of character.

Around Christmas and New Year's, Anonymous got a hold of this story. Really, watch this.

The day that Anonymous statement came out, the boy dropped his defamation case and issued this statement:

STATEMENT FROM **name deleted**
“I deeply regret my actions on the night of August 11, 2012. While I wasn’t at the home where the alleged assault took place, there is no doubt that I was wrong to post that picture from an earlier party and tweet those awful comments. Not a moment goes by that I don’t wish I would have never posted that picture or tweeted those comments. I want to sincerely apologize to the victim and her family for these actions. I also want to acknowledge the work of several bloggers, especially Ms. Goddard at Prinniefied.com, in their efforts to make sure the full truth about that terrible night eventually comes out. At no time did my family mean to stop anyone from expressing themselves online – we only wanted to correct what we believed were misstatements that appeared on Ms. Goddard’s blog. I am glad that we have resolved our differences with Ms. Goddard and that she and her contributors can continue their
work.” – **name deleted**

Two days ago this boy was called as a witness. He took the fifth, then was granted immunity is exchange for his testimony that he saw the "digital penetration."

By the way, this is what the boy tweeted the night of the attack:

Never seen anything this sloppy lol

I have no sympathy for whores.

He was granted IMMUNITY.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just - wow. A whole subculture of rape involving police, DAs, coaches, parents, and teens. It boggles my mind, and makes me wonder where you grew up. And how many places are there like that.

This is so much more than " boys being boys" .

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Damn but Anonymous has mad skills. Maybe I'll take that up when I retire.

I have complete sympathy for the girls, but I REALLY like the idea of getting them all justice.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Damn but Anonymous has mad skills. Maybe I'll take that up when I retire.

I have complete sympathy for the girls, but I REALLY like the idea of getting them all justice.

Yeah, Anonymous/Knightsec rocks. Information is power, and the internet is bringing the power to even the little people. If you can hack, you've got it.

They did a few followup videos and built a website with the full Steubenville story, but it appears to have been shut down in the past 24 hours. I am looking for a mirror. I imagine they'll get one up before long.

Here's one followup, where they explain how they took over a coach's email account. Apparently, they found seriously inappropriate pictures of female students there. (Pictures not shown in the video. Knightsec is classy that way.)

http://rutube.ru/video/5e440e56a0bf56bc88f6d9d59ed08db0/#.UNnMhonjm59

Kiki - I grew up in a red midwestern state (and yes, I think "Red" is part of the anti-woman power dynamic.) Fortunately(?), my badness happened early, and by the time I got to high school I kept myself well away from any danger. Without even realizing what I was doing, I recognized the badness. I went to a very Steubenville-like college, a place where football is God. On game days, the stadium was like the third biggest population center in the state. I steered clear. My main goal was to get out of there.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:33 PM

JONGSSTRAW

For 50+ years I've been hearing that a woman is raped every few minutes somewhere in the United States. That's millions every year...millions. How can that not be a national emergency? How can this epidemic of rape go on for 50 years? Why are women so vulnerable? Why are so many men so sick and vile? Why are good men so apathetic? The whole thing is a national disgrace.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:55 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The rape by daterape drug occured at the home of the PROSECUTOR.

They were tried as juveniles so will have a clean record in 12 months.

Sentence will probably be "community service".

Full backstory with vids: Anonymous hack -- 'She is so raped right now. No foreplay for a dead girl. Trust me, I’m a doctor.'
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53929

Quote:
"Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught."
-Honore de Balzac

In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_(Firefly)

Which explains why Fox cancelled Firefly before its first episode, since Communist China owned Fox, after Commie Chinese intelligence agent Deng Wen Di married Rupert Murdoch in 1999.
http://piratenews.org/fox-news-owned-by-communist-china.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:16 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Yeah, the return of my favorite PN picture! Haven't seen it in a long time. Hannity's rice paddy hat still gives me goosebumps.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yeah, the return of my favorite PN picture! Haven't seen it in a long time. Hannity's rice paddy hat still gives me goosebumps.

LOL! Do you think he gets a nickel every time he posts this crap? It oughtta get cut down to 2 cents, it's so out of date!

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:39 PM

The really apalling part is that places like that are not uncommon.
There is often a heart of darkness in suburbia, and rape is treated more as a social faux paus than an actual crime and always blamed on the girl, aided and abetted by local authorities attitude toward the matter.

That said, what rooks me is that in many of these incidents, all it might have taken is for one boy to say "Dude, NOT cool!", and that didn't happen.
And yanno, I find that a more damning indictment of em than anything a court could ever come up with.

-F

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 8:36 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

That's what happens when little girls are raped at the PROSECUTOR'S HOUSE.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:26 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I think I know where you are coming from, Niki, although I think you worded your first post poorly. It did sound as if you were placing some blame at least on the victim.

It makes me feel both sick and sad to see young lives ruined, but at the same time I hope this sends clear messages about behaviour and consequences. Consent means you have to have the capacity to give consent, and youngsters need to have that drummed into them because the consequences for not understanding or ignoring this are, quite rightly, severe. I also hope that young footballers take note in this country. There is a shocking culture that pervades the sport of demeaning, sometimes violent behaviour towards women, which is publically condemned, but covertly encouraged.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 5:11 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I think, while society taught these boys badly, they also ultimately know that rape is wrong. It's the official message, even in a culture that is still steeped in victim-blaming. The word rape was floating around describing this event, in a joking manner at the time it was happening. They are familiar with the concept. Still they did it.

That was not "stupid". Or a "mistake". It was a violation and a crime. Calling it anything else kind of minimizes what that girl, the one who was violated, has to deal with.

I have zero pity for them that they were caught and convicted. And they were not tried as adults, which is all they can ask for.

Right there with you - I think they got off easy.

I was 16 once - and I made my share of mistakes and dumb moves - but there was never a split second where I would have considered what those boys did as anything other than abhorrent.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, March 18, 2013 5:15 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
That I do not know all the facts does not mean I can't have questions and opinions, despite some believing that not to be true.

Really - you should know better than to offer up opinions on an incidiary issue without bothering to inform yourself first - especially when the info was linked in the first post.

So, you were off to a bad start. Using phrases like "crying rape" and questioning the victim's responisibilty didn't help.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, March 18, 2013 7:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you for all the information; I couldn't bear to read it all, but I got enough to now much better understand the situation. My questions have all been answered, and I certainly condemn what happened, ALL of it (meaning the aftermath and actions of those involved AND those not directly involved who tried to minimize it), and see that this situation is much more awful than I first understood.

I hope something good comes out of it; for the boys, the parents and the community. I'm glad the girl remembers none of it and hope she is able to go on to lead a happy life. What I learned makes it much harder to pity the boys, obviously, but I will continue to try and see the nuances in things and to feel compassion for what everyone involved will suffer as a result of their horrific actions. I HAVE to; if I start dehumanizing people who do bad things, it lessens me. This situation is certainly a test of that, no question about it. I wrote initially off the cuff--gee, I'll bet I'm the first person ever here to make a remark without knowing all the facts, I should be burned at the stake! All in all, I stand with the mother; what they did was unconscionable and beyond words, but I will TRY to pity them and hope they come out of this better people.

Beyond that, I will respond privately...I'm not expressing myself well and I don't want to deal with further misunderstandings that might create.

Just, to Mal4: EVERYTHING you said from "But oddly, what is fascinating me..." In a nutshell.

And to Magons: Every word; yes, I worded it poorly, and all my efforts to explain only made it worse. What you said.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 8:21 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I wrote initially off the cuff--gee, I'll bet I'm the first person ever here to make a remark without knowing all the facts, I should be burned at the stake!

Of course you're not the first - but when others do it - they get called on it, too. Having people respond to your words as written, and expecting you to read, is hardly being burned at the stake. Complaining that it is comes off as petty.

Not to pile up on you, as I agree in general sentiment. But good for the goose, yadda yadda...

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, March 18, 2013 12:39 PM

I'm pretty disgusted with CNN's outpouring of grief over the fate of these rapists. They seem to care more about what happens to the rapists than they do what happens or happened to the girl who was raped.

Not to be outdone, Fox this morning reportedly decided to go ahead and release the name of the victim, so that should probably go well for her...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, March 18, 2013 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm pretty disgusted with CNN's outpouring of grief over the fate of these rapists. They seem to care more about what happens to the rapists than they do what happens or happened to the girl who was raped.

Indeed.
That same attitude toward predators is part of my beef with the ACLU as well.

Mind you, I am all for restorative, rather than retributive justice, but sympathy for folks who knowingly did something so vile isn't any part of my reasons for it.

-F

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Monday, March 18, 2013 7:21 PM

JONGSSTRAW

The two animals that violated this unconscious girl cried like little punks when they were found guilty. Not exactly the tough football heroes they were supposed to be. Now 2 girls have been arrested for sending threatening texts to the victim. They're due in front of the judge tomorrow morning. It looks like the DA will be going before a grand jury to widen the criminal investigation to include others who made threats, others who did not report the crime, a felony in itself, and several adults involved including the owner of the home where it all took place. Steubenville, aka Stupidville, will never be the same.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:30 AM

Quote:
Steubenville, aka Stupidville, will never be the same.

Let's hope not, because "the same" is what got it to this point.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mark, vocal inflection and facial expression are missing...I wasn't whining about it, I was teasing...smiling crookedly, if you will, 'kay? Photobucket has completely changed its format, making my ability to use my vast collection of emoticons more difficult, so I'm not bothering with them as much (don't tell Rap, 'kay? It would please him far too much). Got it? Don't worry about "piling on"; I hope I've made it clear that I don't feel the same as I originally did, and I dug myself into quite a hole trying to explain why I try to follow my beliefs, I understand what happened and it's no biggie.

I actually watched the news for a bit last night, by default, waiting for Choey to come upstairs and watch "The Grass Is Greener" with me. Love that movie. What I saw was a discussion on exactly the fact that the media was paying too much attention to the suffering of the boys, and how wrong it was that they were getting so much sympathy. AND that the girl had gotten death threats (no surprise there, you're nobody if you don't get death threats these days!). They spent quite a bit of time on it...I believe that was MSNBC. From the clips they put up from other media, I fully agreed with them and sat there shaking my head at how stupid so many people are. I was trying to pity the boys for what they would suffer just because they are HUMANS (and now it looks like they'll not get much in the way of punishment anyway, maybe only a year...?!); watching the media slobber all over themselves about it made me sick.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:10 AM

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and there is a TON of sunlight shining on this town right now.

Just imagine a culture where it was widely known that the kids had a house-to-house drinking party and posted sex pictures and all those disgusting tweets, and NONE of the kids were punished or even taken off the team. None of the kids except the two who were arrested - AFTER they were arrested.

Something is seriously seriously wrong with this place.

Even now there are local parents who seem quite reasonable and talk about how they support the girl, yet their next sentence is that they trust the school authorities to take care of everything from here on out. *facepalm*

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 5:04 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
watching the media slobber all over themselves about it made me sick.

That's what the media does. They're vultures, they take a horrible crime - damn near a conspiracy if the people involved weren't so obviously brought-up-wrong/stupid - and they eat it up.

At least in this case they're doing a valuable service though, even if their methods and focus is somewhat distasteful. The world needs to know what happened here, because there's darkness like this in every community.

But yes, more focus on how the entire community perpetuated and enabled this for generations and repeatedly raised young men thinking they were entitled to do this kind of thing. I want everyone in America looking hard at themselves. The difference between humans and monsters is that humans can change.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and there is a TON of sunlight shining on this town right now.

I think it could stand a little more, yanno, like an Archemedies Parabolic DEATH RAY...
Mind, I am only half-kidding about that, cause unless you tear out a culture like this root and branch, it will retrench itself and get right on doin what it was when the heat blows over, Lower Merion (anyone remember that?) is a good example, cause after the initial outrage, even the freakin VICTIMS other than Blake tried to bury it, and that rather sickened me.

Or Pennsylvania youth sports, yeah that one went riiiight back under the rug too....

The media and it's flavor of the week nature isn't *enough* sunlight, and though I cringe to reccommend it, some of the darker corners of the net are much better examples cause once THEY get their teeth in the ankle of a situation like this they follow it through to the bitter end.

Strange days have come upon us when the all important fifth estate has become a dog and pony show, and the true successors of that responsibility are all but outright criminals - reminds me a bit of Andrew Vachss Underground series, just a little.

-Frem

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:37 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... unless you tear out a culture like this root and branch, it will retrench itself and get right on doin what it was when the heat blows over ..."

There are successes, and failures.

The MLK hospital in Los Angeles was found to be severely deficient in everything from housekeeping though patient care to supervising on up to administration. After a warning period to shape up or ship out, the entire administration on down through supervisor was replaced, as were staff known to be culpable. The guilty were torn out and replaced with people it was assumed by their history were better. New procedures were put in place. Many months later a review found that there was no improvement and a multi-billion dollar comprehensive hospital facility sorely needed in the area was closed. It now stands locked and empty.

OTOH the CA CHP used to have a reputation similar to backwater southern sheriff. They brought a new guy in at the top and somehow - god only knows and he ain't tellin' - he turned the entire culture around with most of the officers still in-place. Decades later, to this day, the CHP still has a sterling reputation. Whatever he did worked.

If I were to suggest a place to start it would be with the coach and the school board. None of this happens if they say no. As to what they should do, regrettably the answer lies in the bottom of a grave and so, with god.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

OTOH the CA CHP used to have a reputation similar to backwater southern sheriff. They brought a new guy in at the top and somehow - god only knows and he ain't tellin' - he turned the entire culture around with most of the officers still in-place. Decades later, to this day, the CHP still has a sterling reputation. Whatever he did worked.

Now if they could just put such a person in charge of the LAPD. It's starting to look an awful lot like the New Orleans PD!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:39 AM