Iraq: Ten years later by Niki2

You mean bombing the shit out of a place, killing hundreds of thousands of people, creating power vacuums, and subverting economic resources for our own means doesn't automatically impose order on other countries?

Gotta be proud, Iraq was horrible when Saddam Hussein ran it, nothing like discovering that good intentions mixed with greed, fanaticism, and imperialism can lead an entire region to whole new lows. Well done everyone! Cakes all around.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:02 PM

We all agree this was unconscionable. But Americans STILL support the administration that carried this out.

Where are the protests to end the wars? Where are furious demands for a government that will stop these types of atrocities?

Crickets.

Thought so.

Nobel Peace Prize my ass.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So you think a lot of people here voted for Dubya, approved of what he did, stayed silent if they didn't, and otherwise acted like accomplises?

What website have YOU been visiting?

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
“The last thing the US cares about in the Middle East is democracy. It is about oil, full stop.” http://dprogram.net/2013/03/17/iraqs-dumpster-children/#more-126723

Amen. I wish I had a copy of the speech where W explained that invading Iraq was vital to America's security. Even at the time I noticed how careful the wording was. It hoped to let us believe he meant terrorism, but he never said it outright. I believed at the time, and still do, that he was thinking about America's financial security. W wanted us to control that oil. I think he honestly meant to be the daddy figure, doing what was right for the stupid proles, even if they would never understand. He was all into heading off some future oil wars, and believed it'd all be peace and harmony once we had the rigs.

Of course, he was talked into this fantasy by those who'd make all the money controlling the oil, as well as the war. By the VP who used to work for the company that - shocker! - got lots of no-bid, way overcharged war contracts. Boy, have those companies filled their pockets!

It truly is madness. Even ten years later, I can't quite believe they pulled this off. And they got away with it.

I am very bitter that Obama didn't go after them. Though, I can see that it might not have even been possible. Big money controls too much of our govt. Here's to hoping for some changes in that department! (I'm looking at you, Elizabeth Warren...)

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Hell, we started this whole mess when we capped Mossedeigh in 1953.

Everything else has been much like the old lady who swallowed a fly, put up and supported The Shah, and when he got thrown down propped up Saddam to oppose him, supported the Mujas against the Soviets, damn near every problem over there rests in part on our friggin meddling - and the blowback from Libya is gonna suck in another generation or so with consequences...

First thing, we need to learn to leave well the hell enough alone.

Second thing, we need to take our so-called-protectors who's blowback we been chokin on for decades out back and shoot them in the head, every single one, burn their buildings and salt the earth they stood on.

You wanna fight international terrorism and it's creators, start in Langley and Quantico, not the middle east.

-F

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I am very bitter that Obama didn't go after them.

That for the same reason Ford didn't go after Nixon, or why sniping officers was a faux paus in warfare for so long, they see themselves as better-than and have this unspoken agreement that only the peons face the consequences...

*MY* ancestors were Wataugans, *WE* shot the officers FIRST.
Other than what happened at Kings Mountain, cause Ferguson was an idiot who didn't listen to the locals warning him, nobody wanted to pick a fight with us, not the colonials, not the redcoats, not the natives.

Imagine just how many problems one could solve by striking the root instead of hacking the branches.

-F

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I am very bitter that Obama didn't go after them. Though, I can see that it might not have even been possible.

This. Here. Is. The. Problem.

All the people who ranted and railed against W swallowed their rage when Obama took power. Sometimes, they might even express unhappiness with our Nobel Peace Prize laureate. But it is ALWAYS followed by some excuse for him.

There is no excuse for humanitarian atrocities. Not for Dubya. And not for Obama.

Where's our zero tolerance for fucking people up wholesale?

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I am very bitter that Obama didn't go after them. Though, I can see that it might not have even been possible.
This. Here. Is. The. Problem.

All the people who ranted and railed against W swallowed their rage when Obama took power. Sometimes, they might even express unhappiness with our Nobel Peace Prize laureate. But it is ALWAYS followed by some excuse for him.

There is no excuse for humanitarian atrocities. Not for Dubya. And not for Obama.

Where's our zero tolerance for fucking people up wholesale?

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

OK. So you being all holier-than-thou. You go fix it, right here and now. What will you do? Tell me, what you better-than-everyone-else one single person will do.

Very curious to hear this.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:47 PM

To clarify to those who cherry pick my post without reading the whole thing and getting my actual point (there's CTS displaying her inability to assess data again...)

My point was that the govt is more fucked up than a single individual can fix. If O had tried, in February 2009, to go after the W administration, it would set off a partisan battle at a time when the country was not just teetering on the edge but falling fast off the other side. That's the reality of politics: you have to choose your battles. It looks very pretty to ride into a hopeless battle and get cut down, but dying a noble death doesn't change anything. Not in politics.

As Frem says, the forces behind the Iraq FUBAR are far deeper and older and more ensconced than just W and Cheney. They are same forces that crashed our economy and have paid absolutely nothing for it. I'm sure that if she was pres, CTS could cut them down with a snap of her mighty fingers, but I don't think O is that all-powerful.

My biggest disappointment with O is that, when he ran in 2008, he said he wouldn't have any lobbyists. That idea quickly went away. Sadly, those damned lobbyists are the root of all evil, and they are currently the most powerful part of our govt.

Allowing the economy to finish its crash because he got engaged in a hopeless battle to take down the now powerless figureheads of the systemic disease would have been stupid. O used his political capitol to start a recovery and go after health care. I'd have much rather he went after Big Money, but he certainly had access to information I didn't. He chose his battle. I disagree, but can't claim to be right until I have all the same information he had in 2009.

I have hope that, since the national conversation is headed in a good direction, our next leader(s) will do the right thing as far as getting power away from the corps (Go Warren!) Public opinion is powerful, and the public is now aware of the power imbalance. Just look at what's happened with gay marriage and immigration, which are soon to be done issues now that the GOP sees public opinion--and votes--against them. Getting money out of politics is the next step. As long as it's still in there, no politician, no matter how smooth talking or charismatic, can win the battle.

Don't worry CTS. I don't expect to read and reply to this whole post. I've gotten used to you by now.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 5:09 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You mean bombing the shit out of a place, killing hundreds of thousands of people, creating power vacuums, and subverting economic resources for our own means doesn't automatically impose order on other countries?

Gotta be proud, Iraq was horrible when Saddam Hussein ran it, nothing like discovering that good intentions mixed with greed, fanaticism, and imperialism can lead an entire region to whole new lows. Well done everyone! Cakes all around.

Just don't you dare say YELLOW cakes! We'll have a whole new invasion to deal with!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

Where's our zero tolerance for fucking people up wholesale?

You're not American, are you?

Fucking people up wholesale is all we do. Hell, idiots in this fucking country will even celebrate the murders of schoolchildren, wholesale, and mock the victims.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 5:22 PM

Rummy decided to post his thoughts - all 140 characters of them - to Twitter to celebrate the tenth anniversary of one of the country's greatest blunders.

Patton Oswalt called him on it, Lebowski style.

(Note how Rummy is trying to play the whole thing off now as a "war of liberation". Anyone with two brain cells remembers that's not the reason we went in.)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're not American, are you?

LOL. I am. Naturalized immigrant--so you got a point. I didn't grow up in America. Thank God.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK. So you being all holier-than-thou. You go fix it, right here and now. What will you do? Tell me, what you better-than-everyone-else one single person will do.

There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions. Fuck politics and back room negotiations. This is the ONLY action befitting a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. There are certain principles that shouldn't be compromised in the least. Like excusing rape.

If I were an Obama supporter, I would rally my fellow Democrats to protest the president UNTIL he takes such actions. I would not tolerate a President that I voted for to behave in this way.

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're not American, are you?
LOL. I am. Naturalized immigrant--so you got a point. I didn't grow up in America. Thank God.

It wasn't a criticism of you, trust me; it was an observation. America's slogan should be "We Can Fuck It Up For You Wholesale!"

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK. So you being all holier-than-thou. You go fix it, right here and now. What will you do? Tell me, what you better-than-everyone-else one single person will do.
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions. Fuck politics and back room negotiations. This is the ONLY action befitting a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. There are certain principles that shouldn't be compromised in the least. Like excusing rape.

If I were an Obama supporter, I would rally my fellow Democrats to protest the president UNTIL he takes such actions. I would not tolerate a President that I voted for to behave in this way.

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

All valid points.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK. So you being all holier-than-thou. You go fix it, right here and now. What will you do? Tell me, what you better-than-everyone-else one single person will do.
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions. Fuck politics and back room negotiations. This is the ONLY action befitting a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. There are certain principles that shouldn't be compromised in the least. Like excusing rape.

If I were an Obama supporter, I would rally my fellow Democrats to protest the president UNTIL he takes such actions. I would not tolerate a President that I voted for to behave in this way.

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

...My atheist anarchist gods. I would VOTE for you.

I should take some medicine or something and lay down.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
... I would VOTE for you.

I should take some medicine ...

LOL. Of course. If you would vote for me, you need to take your meds. ;)

You would do the same if you were Obama. And I'd vote for YOU.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

Quote:
The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.

Quote:
If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.

I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.

Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.

Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.

BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.

Quote:

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?

Whatever.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:53 AM

I checked Obama the first time and I carry that shame and guilt every day. People have died because of me.

Never again. I hate this president with a passion, I hate his stooges, I hate the senators and congressmen and military leadership that perpetuate all this. I never ASKED for them to defend me, I'm not really all that keen on living, you see.

But I do care if they're killing other people. I am not an excuse. The dead are not statistics. And these people making the decisions and calling the shots with cold blooded pragmatic murder and economic incentives are NOT MY LEADERS, they are my ENEMIES. They are the enemies of anyone with any pride and higher ideals left to their name.

They know it, I know it. And eventually the whole world will know it, when they send their jackboots to march on our cities. And when that happens, people will have to chose sides - and I don't mean left-wing or right-wing.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:22 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, Damn Mal4, I'm just plain not needed here! You do it all for me, on most issues, and much more concisely and civilly--well, not always civilly, you're getting quite a bite! Which of course won't stop me from putting in my own two-cents' worth!

Quote:
All the people who ranted and railed against W swallowed their rage when Obama took power. Sometimes, they might even express unhappiness with our Nobel Peace Prize laureate. But it is ALWAYS followed by some excuse for him.

BullfuckingSHIT! We're out there, I'VE been out there protesting and getting any any watch list you like. I was out there every Saturday for over a year, with many others, and on individual demonstrations in between, and continue to this day working, protesting, demonstrating, making signs to help others protest, writing my representatives, trying to get people elected. I won't give you a laundry list of my protestations, suffice it to say what you said is just plain wrong, and I happen to know there are MANY of us like myself.

Here's the truth: We're pragmatists, for the most part. We know it would have been WORSE under McCain, or under Romney. Not only would our actions outside America have been more aggressive, and Gitmo filled UP again, but what happened to the American people internally would have been worse.

We also know one man can't change things--tho' he HAS, in many ways nobody cares to pay attention to. Hell, even a majority wasn't able to do what they should have done, because there aren't enough of them who want to do the right thing, because of the fucking filibuster, because of the asshole right-wing fringe tea idiots and the power THEY have to stymie things. I'd love to see anyone try to do what you think should be done, I'd really love to. Obama tried to close Gitmo, but knows he's up against an impossibility. No, Mal4, closing Gitmo wasn't within his power--all anyone has to do is read what happened when he tried to understand how the right was dead set on keeping him from doing it (exactly as they were with virtually anything and everything else he tried to do, as they clearly stated). Someone may manage it somewhere down the line, but I kinda doubt it. It's awfully convenient, having a place outside the country to hide your mistakes and threaten people with, it may never be closed. He stopped trying and went on to other things like a good pragmatist; we'll see if any future President takes it up again. I'll applaud them from the mountain tops if they ever DO, but does anyone think it'll ever be a Republican?

In other words, in a nutshell, as always we're stuck with the lesser of two evils; give us a real choice THAT HAS A CHANCE OF WINNING and we'll be out in droves voting for them. Meanwhile, we keep the pressure on whoever we CAN get in power to do minimum bad and maximum good.

We're out there protesting the drones and many other things. We don't get the press, we never will, but we're out there. We try to elect people who will do the right thing, but the only people we CAN elect are politicians, and almost all of them have their own agendas, so none are perfect. Getting enough people to stand up against what's wrong takes motivating people, which takes them being angry enough to DO something, which ain't easy. But we keep trying.

What we DON'T do is laud bad leaders' actions to the sky, buy into their bullshit and support them whole-heartedly because we're propagandized into believing they are all good, or even mostly good. We try to determine who will do the least harm, and hopefully the most good, and put them in office to avoid the Sarah Palins and Karl Rove's getting into power. We work with what's available.

Of COURSE nobody was going to toss the Bush Administration into jail. Pisses the hell out of most of us that nothing was done, but Mike explained that one and that's why we try not to let people like Bush GET in office. Of COURSE Obama expanded the powers Bush put in place, it's a rare President who doesn't take every opportunity to increase his power, it's an even RARER President who tries to lessen it (HAS one, ever?). On some level maybe he thinks drone warfare is better than boots on the ground--in some ways maybe he's right--given our incredible investment in the military-industrial complex and the power THEY have, and our infernal desire to stick our nose in everywhere, I doubt I'd ever live to see the day we actually do LESS militarily.

Lefties on this site put up anti-Obama and anti-Dem threads to inform others and to complain about things they do wrong. How many anti-Bush threads ever got put up by righties??? How many of the righties here are STILL supporting Bush/Rove/Cheney and saying we did right going into Iraq? (Cue Rap...)

Get real. Obama looked good to many, largely in contrast to Bush; to many of us, he didn't look all that good, but he looked a helluvalot better than McCain/Palin, and that's why we voted for him.

I gotta ask: If you set yourself aside because you weren't born here, why did you come here or, if your parents brought you, why are you still here? If you hate America so much, what country do you think does a better job, and why become a citizen of this one? I'm not saying 'America, love it or leave it', I'm saying if you want to live in this country, but think it's fucked up, why aren't you doing something to change it, rather than playing the black-and-white game of blaming Obama for everything?

Lastly, once again ditto Mal4:

Quote:
BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him.

And Byte; how do you think you'd be feeling today if you'd voted for McCain?? Think you'd be all warm and fuzzy, 'cuz we'd still be in Iraq killing people THERE, have more men dying and killing in Afghanistan, and quite likely would be in OTHER countries doing the same by now! Think about it, dear; given only two choices, what does one do to end up feeling all self-righteous and "right"?

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:40 AM

Quote:
And Byte; how do you think you'd be feeling today if you'd voted for McCain??

What exactly does I HATE ALL OF THEM mean to you folks? Is there ambiguity? Did I misspeak?

All of them means ALL OF THEM. There is no better option. They're all the same. They're all terrible. They all help perpetuate a system THAT KILLS PEOPLE FOR ECONOMIC INTERESTS.

I'm getting worked up again. But suffice to say, if I voted for McCain, I would feel EXACTLY how I voted for Obama. If I voted for Bush I would feel exactly the same as if I voted for Al Gore. Different figureheads, same people on the staff, the administration, and in congress. Pointless to consider what might have been because it wouldn't have changed anything.

And it enrages me that these people have made it so there IS no choice, that we are stuck in a perpetual death spiral, and they are the only ones with the golden parachutes. The rest of us are their sacrifices, stepping stones to their greener pastures. I am to blame for this because I ALLOWED them to do this! And I refuse to play their game. Not again.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We're out there, I'VE been out there protesting and getting any any watch list you like.

That's great, Niki.

Quote:
Here's the truth: We're pragmatists, for the most part. We know it would have been WORSE under McCain, or under Romney. ...

We also know one man can't change things--

This part? Not so great. The excuses of pragmatism and how his hands are tied. No. Not acceptable.

The only acceptable response is to hate him with as much passion as you hated Dubya. Cause he's actually done WORSE than Dubya.

I know the presidency is limited in power. What I won't accept is using the limitations of power as an excuse to CONTINUING TO MAKE THINGS WORSE. He has a duty not just to Americans, but to humankind in general, to first do no harm. That means if he can't shut down Guantanamo, or pardon Bradley Manning, or shut down the wars in Iraq and Iran by himself, then he needs to resign rather than trade Iraqi and Afghanistani lives for his little sliver of power. It is the only conscientious thing to do--not just for him, but for ANYONE who accepts the office of the Presidency.

What do I expect from you guys? I just want you dems to stop making excuses for him. To stop sympathizing for him. To decry and denounce his presidency for what it is: a tyrannical and murderous administration bent on fucking up the world wholesale, just like Dubya's.

Cause from where I stand, you guys sound a lot like those CNN apologists for the rapist boys, except in this case, the rapist boy is the President of the United States. Yeah, yeah, rape is bad. But you gotta see things from the boys' point of view.

THAT is what I mean by turning a blind eye.

Quote:
Byte:
And I refuse to play their game.

Byte's response to Obama is the only one I can respect on this board.

After seeing how much he fucked up Guantanamo and Iraq and Iran, did you guys vote for him a SECOND time? Yes. Yes you did. And I will never forgive you for it.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

Quote:
The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.

Quote:
If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.

I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.

Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.

Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.

BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.

Quote:

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?

Whatever.

Again, all valid points.

Some few of you may have noticed that I'm not a fan of drone strikes. That puts me at odds with the administration AND with the likes of Rappy and "Hero" here, because they love drone strikes (or at least they used to - they may have flip-flopped since li'l Randy the PaulBot decided to use them for fundraising purposes).

I'm not a fan of wars, indefinite detention, the "unitary Executive", torture, warrantless wiretaps (even when they catch Tricky Dick Nixon committing treason) or a whole host of other things that have been rammed down our throats in the past and then handed off to the current occupant of the Oval Office.

Of course, even fewer of you will remember that I warned against giving them those powers in the first place. I was ridiculed for that, but I was also ridiculed for suggesting that drone strikes overseas would lead to abuse of the policy, or that Bush's wars would cost us trillions of dollars instead of a few billion.

Bear that in mind next time you hear those who were first with the ridicule try to convince you that any war with Iran or North Korea would take only a few days and cost no American lives and very little money. There's no such thing as a cheap war.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:00 AM

Quote:
Byte's response to Obama is the only one I can respect on this board.

Whoa there! Let's not agree with me so quickly. I'm dangerously insane.

I do think the other board members here do have the pride and the higher ideals I mentioned. But the time is not yet right for them to rally to the cause.

The government above all else is incompetent. Everything else that it is will be revealed eventually. And when that happens, there will be choices again.

I am still on this board because I know where the majority of these board members will chose to go. That's important to remember.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

You said it with your vote.

Quote:

FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.

And yet, you voted him into office. Again.

Quote:
that is NOT what I want.

I'm an anarchist. Not what I want either.

Quote:
...or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.

You fawn over him enough to vote for him. Or did I assume wrongly that you did?

Quote:

So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems?

You are to more to blame than me because you put him in office, and because you still DEFEND putting him in office.

Quote:
Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?

No pedestal here. No. But I am not defending him in any way or defending a choice to put him in office in anyway. So slightly higher moral ground, yes. But only slightly.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:08 AM

Yeah, Niki, I've got some bite lately. Clearly CTS and I don't see get along, and what's really annoying is that I think we do agree on many principles. I feel she's pecking at me because of past disagreements more than what's being said now.

So yes, CTS, I'm sick of the passive aggressive. If you want to have it out with me, let's go. But don't misinterpret my posts and try to assign to me opinions that aren't mine so you can one up me or something.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And it enrages me that these people have made it so there IS no choice, that we are stuck in a perpetual death spiral, and they are the only ones with the golden parachutes. The rest of us are their sacrifices, stepping stones to their greener pastures.

I understand and empathize. Again, I feel this is root of everything: the money is running the system. Perhaps it is setting myself up for disappointment, but I have a lot of hope in Elizabeth Warren. Us little people are aware of the power imbalance (Thanks to folks like Niki and the rest of OWS!) so pols like Warren will be getting increasing support. If we can get more people like her into the system, there may hope.

Quote:
And I refuse to play their game.

I understand this as well. However, if all the good people leave the game, it is guaranteed to not change.

The best and most peaceful way to change a system is from within. Not that I'm volunteering to run for office, and I'm certainly not going to change my mind about working in the oil business (I could be sharing in the windfall profits at this point as all my co-grad students are now, but I'd be sooo unhappy there) but I don't feel I need to keep as far from politics as possible. Once I did, but the older I get the more I'm drawn in.

None of it is perfect, little of it is actually good at this point, but the system has some directions that are better than others. I want to be a voice supporting those. Even if that means that some people will blame me for the bad parts of the system.

It's a little RWA I think, to have to be either 100% for or 100% against a political system or political person. There are very few 100% out there for me. I like some things about O and dislike others.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:12 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.

And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

Quote:
The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!

FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.

Quote:
If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.

I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.

Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.

Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.

BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.

Quote:

As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.

So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?

Whatever.

Abso-frakin-lutely.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:15 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

You said it with your vote.

Quote:

FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.
And yet, you voted him into office. Again.

Quote:
that is NOT what I want.
I'm an anarchist. Not what I want either.

Quote:
...or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.

You fawn over him enough to vote for him. Or did I assume wrongly that you did?

You keep equating voting for the lesser of two evils with "fawning".

Im with Mal. FU. You really think Romney would have been better?

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?

You said it with your vote.

Yep, this is what I mean by RWA. 100% for or against, and incapable of seeing shades of grey.

Quote:
So slightly higher moral ground, yes. But only slightly.

So clearly it makes you feel good to remove yourself from the system, to not try to do anything that will have an actual effect so that you don't have to take any responsibility for outcomes. You have righteousness on your side - brava!

You're welcome to your approach, and your biased RWA superiority complex, if it makes you happy. Of course, this approach will never change anything. Basically, you've chosen your superiority and peace of mind over the chance to actually fix anything.

Not that I blame you. I've made similar choices for a lot of my life. But don't even start putting me down as the one to blame for EVERYTHING, when all you did was check a box that changed NOTHING.

ETA: CTS, I'd like you to address the issue of USA dictatorship. If Obama has the power to begin/end wars etc, how do you think this will go down when other parties (I say parties because who knows what the GOP will become) take power?

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:18 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
However, if all the good people leave the game, it is guaranteed to not change.

Well said. Those who just take their ball and go home to pout have chose irrelevence, after which their opinions, no matter how angry, are nothing but pissing in the wind.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, that's laughable. We voted, so we're condemned. So by not voting, by letting the worse of two evils be elected--not by working toward getting better people into power, by voting to avoid what we believe will be even worse disaster, by voting to keep the worst at bay, one is condemned as evil, whatever one might do or however one might try to influence those who DO get in power to do a better job.

Boy, you got it whipped. Just don't vote, and you're the good guy! Vote for some symbolic perfect candidate who'll never get power, never change a damned thing, you get to condemn everyone else, to the point of saying they fawn over the person because they checked a box!

I worked for, and voted for, a Congressional candidate when our (MOST excellent) Congresswoman retired this past election. I did so because he had a CHANCE...the guy who was more likely to win, by the way, wasn't bad at all, but I thought Solomon would do a better job, and he had a CHANCE. It ended up a very, very close race, with a recount, and the other guy won. In a case such as that, hell, yeah, I'll bust my ASS to try and get the guy I believe in to win; but if you're saying we should vote for someone who hasn't a chance in hell, just 'cuz the two who will obviously duke it out in the end aren't good enough, then you're part of the problem. If you're saying we shouldn't vote at ALL, then jezus, there's no hope for you, you are WORSE than part of the problem, in my opinion.

Wow. Talk about impossibility of communication; you don't WANT to communicate or make thing better, you just want to sit on your high horse and judge everyone else self-righteously, while taking no responsibility for yourself. Gotcha.

Meanwhile, back in the REAL world...

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:31 AM

Quote:
It's a little RWA I think, to have to be either 100% for or 100% against a political system or political person. There are very few 100% out there for me. I like some things about O and dislike others.

No, in my case it's black and white thinking hallmark of a mental disorder - and the only way I can be.

You want to believe that the system is still fair, that it can be changed from within, and I empathize and sympathize with you.

And I envy you. Because you still have that hope. I don't.

It's not a very nice place to be living in. The sheer horror of knowing what would happen to most people if the system collapsed far overshadows the triumphant sense of satisfaction I would get in seeing something so rotten and irredeemable and vicious and EVIL fall.

The reason I am dangerous is that part of me wants that outcome anyway so hard I can TASTE it. And if I saw a moment's opportunity where I could make that happen, a nudge, like dominoes, I wouldn't even hesitate.

Here's the worst part. I'm on your side. When the national guard marches on the cities and you're on the line throwing rocks, I'm on your side. We might disagree fundamentally on whether we even want there to be a city there at the end of the day, but so long as you're willing to throw rocks, I'll be willing to stand beside you. And at the end of the day, I'll be the one dead, not you. The people will speak, and they will not want what I want. The cycle will start over. Humanity's future will always be an endless cycle of violence and corruption and a boot stomping on someone's face. And I can't stop it. But I have to try.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:47 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Only thing I have to say: "black and white thinking hallmark of a mental disorder - and the only way I can be." That's not true. It's the only way you CHOOSE to be, and that is 100% your perrogative. But there isn't a mental illness around which MAKES you think in black and white if you don't want to. Just sayin', on behalf of the mentally ill everywhere.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:03 AM

Really? You think I'd choose to be like this?

I'm not sure I'm adding anything more to the conversation other than whining now so I guess it's time for me to quit this thread.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Really? You think I'd choose to be like this?

I'm not sure I'm adding anything more to the conversation other than whining now so I guess it's time for me to quit this thread.

No, I don't think you choose. And I really do empathize, with you and even a little with CTS. I know I'm older than you, and I think I'm older than CTS, and I was a lot more like you when I was your age. (Mental issues and all!) I had some opinions, a direction I leaned, but mostly a huge disgust for politics that made me avoid it and the news as much as possible.

All that changed in the elections of 2000, when I started paying attention. Just imagine what the world would be like now if a few hundred people in Florida had voted for Gore rather than Nader. Imagine that there had been no privatization of our military, no appointments to the SC who made money=free speech the law of the land. No cowboy mentality that guns and torture solve everything. No govt energy committees made of oil execs. No dismantling of environmental protections. No dismantling of financial oversight that led to the crash.

My gawd yes - votes make a difference!

I must note that I didn't vote for Gore. I thought he was a doorknob. (Not that my vote mattered - except that in my district Nader beat Bush which I love!) Nothing would have perfect under Gore, and I'm sure other problems would have arisen. But holy cow, so much badness would have been avoided!

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:32 AM

PENQUIN11

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You mean bombing the shit out of a place, killing hundreds of thousands of people, creating power vacuums, and subverting economic resources for our own means doesn't automatically impose order on other countries?

Gotta be proud, Iraq was horrible when Saddam Hussein ran it, nothing like discovering that good intentions mixed with greed, fanaticism, and imperialism can lead an entire region to whole new lows. Well done everyone! Cakes all around.

I don't usually speak from personal experience when dealing with politics, however my father served in both the original Gulf war and the latest 2nd Gulf War. About a year ago I finally asked him what his opinion of the war was, and whether he thought the United States should have ever invaded Iraq. After a moment of silence he responded with something to the gist of:
"I didn't fight that war to find WMD's and I didn't fight in that nation to steal it's oil either. Its a shame that the Bush administration gave the reasons it did for invading Iraq, especially when it was one of the few wars where we could have taken a moral high ground. Our Casus Belli didn't have to be an imminent threat to ourselves, but rather one towards humanity. The guy was a bad guy, he massacred his own population, the torture chambers were horrible. I don't think the way we handled popping up their government was right, there was allot on the administrative side that was downright wrong, but I can't say that the world would be as safe as it is now if we hadn't taken Sadam out."

I also think you are vastly blowing the statistics of the deaths FAR out of proportion. Less Iraqi's died as a result of US troop interactions than did of civilian violence. Sadam killed as many as 800,000 people, and that isn't even taking into consideration the Iraq-Iran war. Most estimates say that during the entire Iraq war 150,000 people died "violent" deaths which includes sectarian and war related deaths...

I'm not excusing the Administrations lies or the mishandling of the war, however I find it crazy that people don't pride America for doing the good thing for once.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:40 AM

Funny how the "right" thing always consists of civilian casualties. Ha. Ha.

And now that Saddam Hussein is gone, Iran is coming to power, so we can go to war with Iran now! It's okay if civilians die, they're evil anyway, so it has to be done. The ends justify the means!

Or maybe the situation is far more complicated than any of us give it credit for and maybe it never had ANYTHING to do with what was "right." Maybe if we cared a jot about what was "right," we wouldn't have supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient, and withdrawn that support when it wasn't.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We voted, so we're condemned.

You're not condemned because you voted. You're condemned because you voted for someone who murders wholesale, AND you're STILL defending that vote!

You could always vote for someone who wasn't for killing innocent people. I'd respect that.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:03 AM

PENQUIN11

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Funny how the "right" thing always consists of civilian casualties. Ha. Ha.

And now that Saddam Hussein is gone, Iran is coming to power, so we can go to war with Iran now! It's okay if civilians die, they're evil anyway, so it has to be done. The ends justify the means!

Or maybe the situation is far more complicated than any of us give it credit for and maybe it never had ANYTHING to do with what was "right." Maybe if we cared a jot about what was "right," we wouldn't have supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient, and withdrawn that support when it wasn't.

We have much more a reason to go to war with Iran than we ever did with Iraq. That being said, we really don't have the money to do something right now.

You are clearly not getting it, less people have died as a result of the Iraq war than did Sadam's reign. We never should have supported Sadam during the Iran-Iraq war, however at least we had the common sense to intervene when he decided to invade Kuwait. We all know its harder to jam the toothpaste back into the tube after you've spilled it, and the plethora of Administrative blunders certainly didn't help, however I will say that I don't mind Sadam not being in power, and I don't see why we should sulk over the sins of the past when we did go the extra mile to make up for it.

Also, I wonder how many people would have died if the Iranians won the Iran-Iraq war? I wonder how horrid the death toll would have been..... Just a penny for your thoughts.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I think I'm older than CTS,

I'm 45. You're not older than me.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
CTS, I'd like you to address the issue of USA dictatorship. If Obama has the power to begin/end wars etc, how do you think this will go down when other parties (I say parties because who knows what the GOP will become) take power?

I don't want him to have the power to begin wars. It isn't the power.

It is about standing up for what is RIGHT.

It is the one guy in a room where his buddies are gangraping a girl, and saying, no, I won't be part of this. This is wrong. You stop, or I am going to make you stop.

Someone with Obama's popularity and charisma, if he had tried to stop the wars/Guantanamo/atrocities, and he was blocked at every turn--what do you think would have happened if he had made a public appeal to the American people:

Fellow Americans. I ran my campaign on the platform for change. But I don't have the power to change without you. So I have to appeal to you again. Write your congressmen and senators. Call them now. Tell them to allow me to shut down Guantanamo. Tell them to stop the wars. Tell them to do what is right.

If he had even TRIED to make that speech, I would personally hoist him on my shoulders.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We voted, so we're condemned.
You're not condemned because you voted. You're condemned because you voted for someone who murders wholesale, AND you're STILL defending that vote!

Interesting, the contrast in arguments from CTS and Penguin1. Completely opposite takes.

Re age: OK, so we're very close. I thought you had young kids. Maybe confused you with someone else. Not that folks our age can't have young kids!

Sad that you're so hopeless about the system. I wonder how you've lived so long and always managed to have a perfect, no complexities, no disagreements candidate to vote for. I don't know much about your life, but it seems getting out could do you good. You do seem to think there are perfect solutions to very complicated problems. I wonder how you'd handle actually trying to solve one.

Again I ask: if you were suddenly Obama, in some Freaky Friday mind swap, do you think you'd be able to stop all the wars and corporate abuses on a dime? With no other innocent victims ever just because you said so?

And how do you answer Penguin regarding lives that were saved?

ETA - cross post! I see you replied. Give me a minute to read and assess...

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:26 AM

Quote:
You are clearly not getting it, less people have died as a result of the Iraq war than did Sadam's reign.

Yet people STILL DIED, and we contributed in a major way to the over-all death toll in the region. We also originally put Saddam in POWER, and so are responsible for what he did.

It's not a question of us being better or worse based on the number of people we killed versus how many people Saddam Hussein killed, it's a question of we did the SAME THING. Which is KILLING PEOPLE.

You think our leaders are better than Saddam Hussein? Lol. Just you wait.

And the only reason we want to go to war with Iran is because Israel wants to go to war with Iran. I guess that's totally righteous and a good reason though.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
CTS, I'd like you to address the issue of USA dictatorship. If Obama has the power to begin/end wars etc, how do you think this will go down when other parties (I say parties because who knows what the GOP will become) take power?
I don't want him to have the power to begin wars. It isn't the power.

It is about standing up for what is RIGHT.

Hard to give some one the power to end wars but not the power to begin them.

Also, what you see as right is not universal. Yes, in some situations, such as a gang rape, it is pretty damned clear. Iraq in 2009 - not so clear. Pulling the troops out the first day he was in office would not have gone well.

Quote:
Fellow Americans. I ran my campaign on the platform for change. But I don't have the power to change without you. So I have to appeal to you again. Write your congressmen and senators. Call them now. Tell them to allow me to shut down Guantanamo. Tell them to stop the wars. Tell them to do what is right.

Yeah, he did that. When he ran for office in 2008. And people voted for him, people made phone calls, people protested. But guess what - people also made phone calls and cast votes etc supporting the complete opposite view! See Penguins posts. It is a complicated world, and a complicated problem. A gang rape is damned obvious right/wrong (for most of us anyway!) Running a country is not.

I really do think you should get yourself in a position to address a political issue. Hell, even be captain of a sports team where half the team wants to win and half just wants to play for fun. Try dealing with that stupid, meaningless, unsolvable conflict and maybe you'll develop some empathy for what is involved in trying to fix wars and broken political systems.

BTW, I would really love it if O'd stand up and make such a speech against the corporate-ocracy and class warfare. Oh wait, he's done that too. People did what he asked: voted, made calls, signed petitions, organized rallies. Did that change everything on a dime?

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Sad that you're so hopeless about the system. I wonder how you've lived so long and always managed to have a perfect, no complexities, no disagreements candidate to vote for. I don't know much about your life, but it seems getting out could do you good. You do seem to think there are perfect solutions to very complicated problems. I wonder how you'd handle actually trying to solve one.

In a nutshell. And yes, sad; but I must admit in a 45-year-old, somewhat amazing. I was damned naive at 45, but not THAT blind and ignorant, even then.

And yes, he did:

Quote:
I would really love it if O'd stand up and make such a speech against the corporate-ocracy and class warfare. Oh wait, he's done that too. People did what he asked: voted, made calls, signed petitions, organized rallies. Did that change everything on a dime?

...and nothing's changed. Nor will it. Takes more than that. Lots more...starting with, for those in power, SOME semblance of "cooperation" and "compromise".

Penguin, in many ways I understand what you're saying. But to me, that can be said of so many dictators, so many horrors in the world, and our involvement has not made things better and often made it worse, so for me, doing what we did was wrong, whether we were fooled into doing it or did it for the "right" reasons.

And given what we've got so far, this thread is not worth one more second's effort.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:18 AM

Meanwhile...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:18 AM