Care to argue with Carl Sagan? by MAL4PREZ

America loves a winner!

Einstein was wrong. So was Sagan. Once or twice. But that's how science works.

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:55 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Einstein was wrong. So was Sagan. Once or twice. But that's how science works.

Which exactly fits Sagan's quote.

Care to show where politicians or religious folk assessed evidence and let that lead them to admitting that they were wrong?

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:12 PM

America loves a winner!

Politicians flip flop all the time. Kerry was for the war in Iraq before he was against it. Hillary was against gay marriage, but now is for it.

Did you really think this thread out before you posted it ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:48 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Neocons were all about WMD until they couldn't find any; then it was all about a "war of liberation", and always had been.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:53 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Neocons were all about WMD until they couldn't find any; then it was all about a "war of liberation", and always had been.

The Kurds in Iraq say hello.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:18 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
The Kurds in Iraq say hello.

Fuck the Kurds and the rest of the fucking ungrateful Iraqis.

Sagan's Cosmos was the most exciting and brilliant show ever on television.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 5:12 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Great quote.

I changed my mind all the time, on religious and political issues.

I used to be avidly anti-gun, and pro-gun control. I used to be a bleeding heart liberal, like Niki. Now I am anti-gun control and libertarian/anarchist.

I used to be rabidly pro-life. Now I am still personally pro-life, but vote pro-choice, because I don't believe in forcing other women to agree with me.

I used to be a rabid bible thumping fundie. Now I'm not even sure I call myself Christian.

I used to say CO2 was a negligible trace gas. After reading the evidence and math at scienceofdoom.com, I changed my mind and recognize it as a significant greenhouse gas. Of course, this is a scientific issue, so it's no biggie. As a scientist, I change my mind on scientific issues all the time. I just need convincing evidence and good data. My standards for good data are very, very high, so what is good enough for the scientifically illiterate media is not usually good enough for me. But yes, when the data is indisputable, hell yes, I change my mind. Those are actually the favorite moments in my life, when I GET to change my mind.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 11:53 AM

America loves a winner!

So, all the fuss is over 0.035 of our atmo, huh ?

Good grief.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Friday, March 22, 2013 12:51 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, all the fuss is over 0.035 of our atmo, huh ?

I used to think the same thing. Then I read this article:

http://scienceofdoom.com/2009/11/28/co2-an-insignificant-trace-gas-par
t-one/

He makes a pretty strong case that the 0.035% of the atmo absorbs a significant amount of radiation.

He summarizes:

Quote:
The question asked at the start was “Is CO2 an insignificant trace gas?” and the answer is no.

CO2 and water vapor are very significant in the earth’s climate, otherwise it would be a very cold place.

What else can we conclude? Nothing really, this is just the starting point.

So CO2 is a significant greenhouse gas.

Now whether manmade CO2 is responsible for any increases in global surface temperature is another question, and requires additional evidence.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 1:03 PM

America loves a winner!

Space is very cold. I'd rather warm up a bit than freeze.

Methane is more a culprit, is it not ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Friday, March 22, 2013 1:27 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Methane is more a culprit, is it not ?

It isn't. Simply because the quantities of CO2 that we're dealing with are much bigger - some 200 times bigger.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 2:00 PM

America loves a winner!

Some say differently...

Methane may be more important than CO2 in warming

Atmospheric levels of methane, 20 times more powerful than carbon dioxide (CO2) at trapping heat, stayed steady for two decades to 2006 on wider fertilizer use to grow rice or a surge in natural gas demand, according to two separate studies in the journal Nature.

http://www.enn.com/climate/article/43073

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Friday, March 22, 2013 2:07 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Nothing in that article contradicts what I wrote Auraptor. Methane is more potent a greenhouse gas than CO2, but there's much LESS of it. So all in all its effect is LESS. (Not insignificant, but less.)

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 2:22 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Nothing in that article contradicts what I wrote Auraptor. Methane is more potent a greenhouse gas than CO2, but there's much LESS of it. So all in all its effect is LESS. (Not insignificant, but less.)

It's not personal. It's just war.

I didn't write the article or the headline, but you still dismissed it, out of hand. And this is from those who buy into the AGW myth, so what point is there in me even trying ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Friday, March 22, 2013 4:03 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Methane is more a culprit, is it not ?

Methane levels haven't been shooting up like CO2 levels though.

Water vapor is the biggest "culprit," if keeping us warm is a culpable offense.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Friday, March 22, 2013 4:14 PM

America loves a winner!

My views on the topic fall somewhere between this...

And the late Michael Crichton's , which was flat out, full blown dismissal of the whole idea.

I'm probably more towards the latter, to be honest.

And I'll say it again. Yes, the Earth warms and cools, has done so for hundreds of millions of years. The very LAST thing we need to do is start taxing the living hell out of producers and , as Teller puts it ( Yes, he really does speak ! ) that carbon credits are bullshit.

p.s. - unrelated to this thread, I was watching another Penn video, one w/ S.E. Cupp, and I never knew she was an atheist. Hot damn! I guess I should sign up for the cool atheists club!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Friday, March 22, 2013 5:39 PM

America loves a winner!

The earlier Penn video was from '08. This one's a bit more recent...

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 3:29 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Nothing in that article contradicts what I wrote Auraptor. Methane is more potent a greenhouse gas than CO2, but there's much LESS of it. So all in all its effect is LESS. (Not insignificant, but less.)

It's not personal. It's just war.

I didn't write the article or the headline, but you still dismissed it, out of hand. And this is from those who buy into the AGW myth, so what point is there in me even trying ?

Ah I see, you're going purely off the article's headline, which you've misunderstood. You thought you had an article arguing that Methane caused more warming than CO2, didn't you? Ha!

Let me help you out, methane is responsible for less warming than CO2 (see graph below), however that could change in the future if global warming causes permafrost to melt, and more methane to be released...

So yes, methane may be more important than CO2 - in the future - but it isn't now.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 3:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Actually, neither is all that much of a concern, as there's no real crisis of global warming at all, and even if there were, there's not a damn thing we can do about it.

HA!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 4:09 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Haha.

Are you backing down about methane being a bigger culprit than CO2 then?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 4:20 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Haha.

Are you backing down about methane being a bigger culprit than CO2 then?

It's not personal. It's just war.

I'm backing down that either are a culprit.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:26 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Ha!

So CTS shows you that CO2 IS significant in warming the earth, and you pivot to saying methane is more the culprit than CO2. I show you that CO2 IS the bigger culprit, and you pivot back to your starting position!

Anyway, you've been shown to be comprehensively wrong, so I'm done now.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 23, 2013 8:29 AM

America loves a winner!

I've not been shown to be completely wrong, in the least. I posed the question IF methane was a bigger cause of global warming than co2, as the title of the article clearly states, and I've heard others make mention of it as well.

Yes, w/ out c02, we'd be on a path to having an atmo as cold as Mars, and yet you want folks to think we're on a path to being more like Venus. Thing is, c02 is naturally occurring, and there's not a damn thing we can do to take it out of our atmo , even if we TRIED!

And yes, you are done here.

* Also, I'd like to say I think my Penn and Teller vid on global warming is one of my better finds. Not since the proper fucking boom video from the Gulf oil spill have I done better.

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Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:01 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I posed the question IF methane was a bigger cause of global warming than co2

Yeah, sure, you weren't really arguing that methane is the bigger culprit.

It occurs to me that you have 100 different denialist theories floating around in your head, reasons why you suspect AGW is bogus - BUT you're not really 100% sure of any of them... In other words they could all be wrong.

So basically my challenge to you is this: give me your best, single argument, why you KNOW AGW is bogus .

Up till now you've been saying things like:

"The earth isn't really warming... but even if it is, it's not down to CO2... but even if it is, it's not down to human emissions... but even if it is there's nothing we can do... but even if there is..."

Pick your best, single argument. And we'll see if you can defend it. (To be clear, I could give you half a dozen arguments why AGW is surely real, and defend them from you, or anyone)

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Science isn't built upon a SINGLE , all inclusive argument. You ought to know that. Just like any criminal case, the collection of evidence points to the most likely suspect, or scenario.

But since you asked, i'll say there's not nearly enough evidence to support the AGW claims. We're looking at too small a time period, kinda like viewing a landscape through a cardboard tube from a paper towel. You focus in on only a fraction of the whole picture, and you are missing most of what's important in revealing the whole.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, March 25, 2013 9:47 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

What a feeble answer. AGW isn't real because... it's not. C'mon Auraptor, imagine you're trying to convince a stranger that AGW is a hoax. What's your best, single argument to convince them?

You do believe it when you say AGW is a con, right? You're not just being a blowhard? Then come out and say what your belief rests on.

I told you I could do the same for why I believe AGW is real, I'll list a few arguments:

1. A large concensus (97%) of climate scientists support it
2. No respected scientific institution in the world disputes it
3. The greenhouse effect is basic physics
4. The greenhouse effect is directly observed and measured, and directly traceable to human emissions

And so on...

Your turn. Give your best, single piece of evidence why AGW is a hoax.

Quote:
Science isn't built upon a SINGLE , all inclusive argument.

I'm not asking for an 'all inclusive' argument. I'm asking for your best one.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, March 25, 2013 9:51 AM

America loves a winner!

Maybe no 'institutions', but many individuals say it's all hokum.

I feel no desire or need to present a thesis on the matter. The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true, not for me clamor for the evidence that it is NOT.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:50 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Maybe no 'institutions', but many individuals say it's all hokum.

Many individuals say they've built perpetual motion machines...

In any case I wasn't trying to convince you, but to show you that I can back up my beliefs with supporting evidence/arguments. Something you apparently can't do.

Quote:
The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true

The burden of proof lies with anyone who comes out with any kind of assertion, including you when you said AGW is a 'con'. You state it as a fact but can't come up with even a single argument to back it up...

Well, I gave you every change to answer the question...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:54 AM

America loves a winner!

I've shown where AGW is a con. But I don't have to disprove AGW, it must first be PROVEN. It hasn't.

The now DEAD Hugo Chavez said as much at the conference in Copenhagen.

Weather man and co-founder of The Weather Channel John Coleman, and climatologist Roy Spencer who served as Senior Scientist for Climate Studies at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, are among those who have decades of experience on this topic who differ from the " institutions " which support this myth.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:26 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Weather man and co-founder of The Weather Channel John Coleman, and climatologist Roy Spencer who served as Senior Scientist for Climate Studies at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, are among those who have decades of experience on this topic who differ from the " institutions "

Is that your answer? Naming a couple of individuals who aren't convinced by the theory? This is your best argument, that you would use to convince a random stranger that AGW is a con?

This matter has been referred to the 'Questions conservatives can't answer' thread. Re-post your answer there if you want, but I would try to come up with a better one - if you can.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:40 PM

America loves a winner!

kpo - are you expecting me to try to convince some random stranger,, OR are you asking why I believe the things I believe.

Because if it's the former, I don't give a damn what someone else believes. I'm not in the business of proselytizing for any religion , life style or political view. I'll freely discuss , if that's what you'd like, but I'm not going to get into a pissing match to see who can post the most convincing argument or make the best 'sell'.

That's just not my bag, baby.

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:17 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
kpo - are you expecting me to try to convince some random stranger,, OR are you asking why I believe the things I believe.

I'm asking you to back up not just what you believe, but what you've stated as FACT numerous times.

Quote:
I'm not in the business of proselytizing for any religion , life style or political view.

Bullshit. What are you doing shouting out "AGW IS A CON" in every global warming thread? You think people don't already know what your opinion is? It would seem like you're trying to CONVINCE people. That's why I'm challenging you to CONVINCE people with reasoning and evidence, instead.

But you can't do it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:19 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Oh and:

"The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true..."
---Auraptor, 26th March 2013

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:34 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Oh and:

"The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true..."
---Auraptor, 26th March 2013

It's not personal. It's just war.

As is the case for anything. Doesn't mean I have to DISPROVE that which hasn't been proven.

Do I have to disprove Bigfoot too ? What about the Loch Ness Monster ? Unicorns ? Aliens ? There's no end to the list of stupid shit which isn't real that I could waste my time on debunking. AGW is just one more to that list.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Neocons were all about WMD until they couldn't find any; then it was all about a "war of liberation", and always had been.

The Kurds in Iraq say hello.

So, that means they didn't change stories? Moron.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Actually, neither is all that much of a concern, as there's no real crisis of global warming at all, and even if there were, there's not a damn thing we can do about it.

Nice dodge.

You FINALLY actually cite something, so that's a little growth, yay you!

Then you whine when you think someone else didn't read it...

Then you get caught not even reading it (or maybe you did, and just didn't grasp it)...

So you just toss it aside, saying it doesn't matter.

You should be in Riverdance, boy. You dance like a friggin pro!

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Maybe no 'institutions', but many individuals say it's all hokum.

I feel no desire or need to present a thesis on the matter. The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true, not for me clamor for the evidence that it is NOT.

THAT'S you're argument? Hell - people who believe fairytales are the base of the republican party!! And you thinkl that means didlly?

"Bubbah don't buy it, so the years of research don't count." Amazing.

And saying over and over again that you've proved its a con is a LIE. Give ONE motherfucking link, you chickinshit. Not a thesis, don't repeat it, just show us where.

We know you can't, so do you - o you keep repeating the lie. Such a sad little boy.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Freedom isn't a fairy tale, Storybook.

Must piss you off to no end that I don't believe in your religion.

Are you nuts going to start slicing the heads off of us ' non believers' ? Or does that come later ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 3:49 PM

Rappy, when you say climate change is a hoax, do you state that as a fact, or merely as your personal opinion?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, March 26, 2013 3:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Oh and:

"The burden of proof lies on those making the assertion that something IS true..."
---Auraptor, 26th March 2013

It's not personal. It's just war.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Rappy here asserting that it IS true that climate change is a hoax?

He's unable to show a scintilla of evidence to support that, however.

He's completely unwilling or unable to meet his own burden of proof.

How very Rappy of him.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom isn't a fairy tale, Storybook.

Jesus.

I wish I could even pretend for a moment to be surprised that you missed the point.

Quote:
Must piss you off to no end that I don't believe in your religion.

Only a moron like you would continue to insist that actual science is a religion, and your faith-based assertations are not.

You are astoundingly stupid, boy. Astoundingly.

Quote:
Are you nuts going to start slicing the heads off of us ' non believers' ? Or does that come later ?

You're the zealot who denies science and blindly follows ideaology - you tell me.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:37 PM

America loves a winner!

Tell me, Storybook, which side of this issue suggests that " deniers " be treated as those who'd claim the Holocaust never occurred ?

The zealots, like the DEAD Hugo Chavez, froth and foam at the mouth at anyone who doesn't bow to their demands.

And those of us who are 'infidels', what crimes are we guilty of committing? We care not to join in on the self flagellation of carbon credits, or in driving around in match boxed sized cars which have a net result of adding MORE carbon to the atmo, not less.

Seriously, when do y'all don the purple shrouds and black nikes ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Tell me, Storybook, which side of this issue suggests that " deniers " be treated as those who'd claim the Holocaust never occurred ?

Asking for a citation, or a credible source, is treating you like a holocaust denier?

Could you be any more of a drama queen? Damn.

You say some astoundingly stupid shit - yet never seem to stop topping yourself. I am impressed.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, March 27, 2013 6:36 PM