REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why the 90 percent lost on gun background checks

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:07
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Thursday, April 18, 2013 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In a nutshell:
Quote:

In the wake of the Sandy Hook shootings, polls have shown overwhelming public support for expanding background checks on gun sales, with one poll showing 9 out of 10 Americans backing the idea. Yet on Wednesday, a bill to do just that went down to defeat in the Senate. As President Obama pointed out, “The American people are trying to figure out how can something have 90 percent support and yet not happen.”

The simplest explanation for this disconnect is that Senate procedures enable minorities to thwart majorities. The legislation on background checks had the support of 54 of the 100 senators, but it takes 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

The simplest explanation for this disconnect is that Senate procedures enable minorities to thwart majorities. The legislation on background checks had the support of 54 of the 100 senators, but it takes 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

Second, issue polls typically include nonvoters as well as voters. But in the eyes of politicians, nonvoters are nonpersons. Elected officials focus on the people who actually show up to vote, and their sentiments might differ from those who stay home on Election Day.

More specifically, politicians also have to worry about the people who vote in primaries. Republicans and Democrats need to nurture their ideological bases, or else face defeat at the hands of primary opponents. This tendency has become more pronounced in recent years in the House of Representatives, where red districts have gotten redder and blue districts have gotten bluer.

Third, intensity comes into play, as a passionate minority can trump a relatively indifferent majority. The former will remember in November, but the latter won’t. Gun control has usually exhibited this pattern: Second Amendment enthusiasts will always get in touch with their lawmakers and vote on the basis of this one issue, while supporters of more gun regulation may answer “yes” to a survey question and then forget about it.

Fourth, presidents have only a limited ability to drive public opinion and mass political action. Even at the peak of his popularity, President Reagan was able to motivate cards and letters when he was selling something that people already liked (e.g., tax cuts). When he tried to stir Americans on tougher issues (e.g., aid to Nicaraguan rebels), he got nowhere.

Today, presidents work in a much more demanding media environment. Until the 1980s, they could “roadblock” the television networks with an Oval Office address. Now, they have to compete with hundreds of other channels and the Internet. Moreover, their critics and opponents have many more opportunities to respond in real time. Nobody live-blogged FDR’s “Day of Infamy” speech.

Fifth and perhaps most important, James Madison still rules America. The Framers designed a bicameral legislature and the separation of powers specifically to prevent an automatic translation of public opinion into public policy. Supporters of the system say that it fosters deliberation and ensures the protection of minority rights. Critics say that it prevents passage of necessary legislation.

The National Rifle Association wins so many battles because of its zeal, its persistence, and its organization. Those who want tougher restrictions on firearms have to stoke the same kind of ardor, matching the NRA letter for letter, email for email, and phone call for phone call. http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2013/0418/Why-the-90-perce
nt-lost-on-gun-background-checks?nav=87-frontpage-entryCommentary


It's not over. Not by a long shot. When something as watered-down as merely increasing background checks at gun shows to keep guns away from the most obvious "wrong people" can't pass in our government, it's something we all need to sit up and think about.

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Heres a thought.

You evil, bullies LOST.

Not because the Senate "failed", but because 10s of MILLIONS of good-guys with guns, got up off our duffs, and called, wrote, and protested until those clowns LISTENED.

WE ARE THE MAJORITY.

YOU ARE THE MINORITY.

DEAL WITH IT.

The light will always beat back the dark, and for once in a long time...

The good guys WON.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:33 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


It's been a shitty week all round in the US. Boston bombing, some nutjob sending poison letters to the pres, that horrible fire in Texas and the defeat of the amendments to the gun laws.

Sorry that everything seems so rotten at the moment and the loonies are gaining ground.

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx, Magons; yeah, that fire was pretty awful. Last I heard, possibly 5-15 dead. My heart goes out to them. Been a sad week all around.

Never fear, tho'; the loonies aren't actually gaining ground. We're holding them at bay, and in time they'll lose, they always do in the end. Just a matter of how long it takes. We can look back at how much sway these nutbags had in previous years in this county, and know we're moving forward...ever so slowly!

You're finding out more about our "beloved" loonies here on RWED right now because I'm bothering to post the stories. Usually I just shake my head sadly and look for some REAL news, but I'm giving vent to my more frustrated side recently by sharing them. So it seems worse than it is; there are crazies everywhere, we just don't hear about them all the time. Admittedly, we seem to have more than our SHARE here in the U.S., but we can take heart that their kind don't have as much power as their hateful kin in some other countries (not many other countries, admittedly, but some...). At least I like to think so. :o)


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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:00 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Mine is an evil laugh, Magons.



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Retracted; I let my anger get the better of me. Better I let the hateful among us spew their vile without responding.


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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The simplest explanation for this disconnect is that Senate procedures enable minorities to thwart majorities.

This is by design, in order to ensure no one has their human or civil rights stomped on cause some ignorant or intolerant majority thinks that is a good idea.

Didn't hear a whole lotta screamin about this when folks were using it to stonewall a lot of the bullshit Bush and his cronies wanted to push through.

Of course, when it gets in YOUR way, uh huh, yeah...

Human and Civil Rights are very difficult to infringe upon, to excise, within our system for very fucking good reasons.

And yanno...
I think you folks are one of them.

Especially since if someone made a concerted effort based on lies and distortions to crush rights you actually care about and use, you'd be first in line screaming a fit, but in this case there you are with the freakin pom-poms cheerleading not only your own undoing, but that of others with enough knowledge of history to see the demonize-disarm-destroy pattern for what it truly is.

This is, mind you, the same attitude I threw at the rightwing when they chose to assault privacy and free speech, the same hard line, the same mentality, you remember, the one you cheered when it was on your "side" - something which seems more important to you than right or wrong or human rights.

And now you're angry cause the same roadblock stands in your path without taking a message about why that might be, without considering where your path is leading ?

I'll no more accept liberals stomping on peoples rights than I would conservatives doing so, and the lies, distortions and excuses for trying are in every particular that matters exactly the same - two sides of the same bent coin, and showing the true colors of thy own petty tyranny all around.

Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny, and while wholly acceptable to you (only when it's on your "side", of course), it is not, and never will be, acceptable to me.

-Frem

PS, Wulfenwhiner - you might consider the best thing you could ever do for any cause is not support it, you dumb useless fuck.

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:16 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Thanx, Magons; yeah, that fire was pretty awful. Last I heard, possibly 5-15 dead. My heart goes out to them. Been a sad week all around.

Never fear, tho'; the loonies aren't actually gaining ground. We're holding them at bay, and in time they'll lose, they always do in the end. Just a matter of how long it takes. We can look back at how much sway these nutbags had in previous years in this county, and know we're moving forward...ever so slowly!

You're finding out more about our "beloved" loonies here on RWED right now because I'm bothering to post the stories. Usually I just shake my head sadly and look for some REAL news, but I'm giving vent to my more frustrated side recently by sharing them. So it seems worse than it is; there are crazies everywhere, we just don't hear about them all the time. Admittedly, we seem to have more than our SHARE here in the U.S., but we can take heart that their kind don't have as much power as their hateful kin in some other countries (not many other countries, admittedly, but some...). At least I like to think so. :o)




Well hang on in there. It's people like you who give voice to sane policies.

What we don't focus on is all the wonderful people who rush in to help, who donate blood, who put their own lives in danger to help others. Seen a lot of that too. That compensates for the crowing wingnuts on this forum at least.

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:21 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, I tried to highlight those aspects yesterday, and they've been all over, and heartwarming. I teared up at some of the messages New York has sent Boston, including singing their team's "theme song"--given how sports is, that meant a lot, seeing the crowd smiling and laughing and waving as they sang along. They understood.

Let those filled with anger and hate, as we're seeing here, have their day. Sanity will overcome in the end. There will be better days.


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Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



The " 90% " is as full of hokum and a made up number as the 99% crap.

Most folks rate this a complete NON issue, well behind the economy, sealing the border and ILLEGAL immigration.

Also, more legislation would have yielded exactly no effect on making anyone safer.

None. Zilch. Nodda.


That's why this nonsense failed.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:41 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


P.S. Fremble, its me and my pack/kind who actually beat them back. Suck on that you cock-eyed crip.

You might want to stop nipping at the ankles of the giants who are doing the work you only wish you could.

You could be useful in this fight.

Don't relegate yourself to being the forgotten nothing you have become.



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Friday, April 19, 2013 3:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

In a nutshell:

[2 page thesis in blue letters written by somebody who doesn't post here, followed by a completely un-helpful:]

It's not over. Not by a long shot. When something as watered-down as merely increasing background checks at gun shows to keep guns away from the most obvious "wrong people" can't pass in our government, it's something we all need to sit up and think about.




Just a little food for thought Niki....

Most of us have jobs. Some of us have jobs where we have to read and write about a whole lot of shit that we don't really care about. Some of us have jobs where we have to cook food we can't afford to eat ourselves for people with too much money, or have to stock merchandise we can't afford on shelves for people to buy who have too much money. Hell... there are people out there who actually have to mop up the stages and poles at stripper clubs and risk catching second-hand VD, cleaning up after the messes made only because some guys have too much money...

That being said, your posts are a chore to indulge 90% of the time or more.

"In a Nutshell" is often an entire article written by somebody else, presumably, who puts the same ideological spin on things that you believe in.



Your insightful follow-ups to these articles are usually a short paragraph or two. They do not at all weigh out the merits and faults of the article. They are simply party-line follow ups to your take on the article.




The title alone for this article is idiocy. I don't even say that because you wrote it. I would be saying the same thing if it went the other way and Rappy was writing it.

Aside from Child Molestation, I seriously doubt you'll EVER find something that 90% of the people EVER agree on. (The fact that NAMBLA is a REAL organization that wasn't made up by the creators of South Park, I wonder if you'd even hit your 90% target there....)



I know that Niki is avoiding me, but maybe somebody could point out to her these truths and how ridiculous her posts here are.....




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Friday, April 19, 2013 4:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Didn't hear a whole lotta screamin about this when folks were using it to stonewall a lot of the bullshit Bush and his cronies wanted to push through.

Of course, when it gets in YOUR way, uh huh, yeah...

Human and Civil Rights are very difficult to infringe upon, to excise, within our system for very fucking good reasons.

And yanno...
I think you folks are one of them.



Yeah.... it's pretty funny that my ex-mil brother nearly disowned me for being as rabid an anti-bushite as I was back then....

What's even funnier is how much we agree on today.

So many left wingers here today that weren't here back then that would have loved me.

Hey... it's not my fault y'all Re-nigged in 2012......


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Friday, April 19, 2013 6:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Obviously didn't read Six's various rants, but just FYI, Rap, I DO read your posts, every single one of them. However we feel about one another and however virulently we may disagree, I respect you that much. As such, I will respond to your
Quote:

Most folks rate this a complete NON issue, well behind the economy, sealing the border and ILLEGAL immigration.

I know you don't bother to read probably most of what I put up, but you missed this one:
Quote:

Poll: Actual People Care More About Guns Than Any Other News Story

The Pew Research Center For The People And The Press actually does measure how much people care about various issues in the news, and their most recent survey ( http://www.people-press.org/2013/04/08/gun-debate-draws-more-interest-
than-immigration-policy-debate/
]) indicates that Americans care more about the gun debate than any other issue, and have for most of this year. In the January 3-6 survey, 34% of Americans said they were following news on the gun debate very closely, a close second to the fiscal cliff’s 38%. Since then, the gun debate has dominated the survey every time it’s been included:

Most recently, the gun debate edged out North Korea, 37%-36%, while immigration remained flat, at 23%, since February. At its peak, the gun debate was being followed either “very closely” or “fairly closely” by 72% of Americans, and remains at 65% of Americans closely following it. http://www.mediaite.com/online/poll-actual-people-care-more-about-guns
-than-any-other-news-story/


As to Wulf, he and his "kind" had abso-fucking-lootely NOTHING to do with defeating this bill. Everyone with at least two brain cells to rub together knows perfectly well it's the money and power of the gun manufacturers, gun lobby and NRA who forced legislators to make the calculation between representing the American people on this issue and being totally self-serving about what they will gain from the gun manufacturers and THEIR "kind" over the rest of their time in office. With any luck at all, that will turn out to be a bad calculation for them in the end. But cowards and idiots like Wulf had nothing whatsoever to do with it; they just like to puff out their cheeks and pretend they're important. They're not.


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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki, you unnatural thing...

It wasn't the "mythical" NRA who made this victory for human rights possible.

It was people.

Just people.

Americans who finally stood up, and said: "NO!" With one voice, we stopped your grab for power, your infringement on our natural right to defense.

The phone calls, the emails, the rallies, the speeches, the conversations around dinner tables all over the country won against you.

Yes, dare I say it,

The grassroots of America.

The PEOPLE.

Whom you and your kind do NOT represent.

WE BEAT YOU.

Im sure you'll be back. Unnatural and evil people always come back, like the night follows the day.

But ON THIS DAY WE WON. And all the people of this wonderful land, are still free.




"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:12 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Can someone please explain to me why background checks for all guns purchases are a bad thing, and why the resident gun bunny lunatics (Frem exlcuded) are so up in arms in celebration about its not passing?

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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...



My gawd, the fantasy world this child lives in...
I can only imagine he actually BELIEVES the shit he spews... poor little

Actually, it's not funny, it's terribly, terribly sad. Not to mention

And not worth actually paying attention to, any more than the poor creatures shuffling down Market Street muttering to themselves about the End of the World...



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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:24 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Can someone please explain to me why background checks for all guns purchases are a bad thing, and why the resident gun bunny lunatics (Frem exlcuded) are so up in arms in celebration about its not passing?



Can somebody answer why I can vote for my dead grandmother at the polls without an ID?


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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:27 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Uhhh, u cant. as evidenced by the people currently having been arrested and charged w voter fraud.

Zero attempts at an actual discussion then jack? Just gonna throw out meaningless and false equivalencies?

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Friday, April 19, 2013 7:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...



Okay, I admit, I had to actually read one of Six's posts to find out what you were responding to.

Is he just drunk ALL the time? Or does he only post here when he's drunk? Or is he just that dumb?


And yeah, well, do we care? (...sorry...)


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Friday, April 19, 2013 8:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Won't mean anything to people like Wulf, who's reading-comprehension skills are virtually nill, obviously, but in case anyone with half a brain is interested, this is about it in a nutshell:
Quote:

...the outcome shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone. While polls trumpet overwhelming public support for increased gun controls, it came down to politics, where the NRA is the kingmaker and lawmakers, especially those in rural states, reliably fall into line.

As pundits parsing the bill’s death have pointed out in their post-mortems, to expect the vote to have gone otherwise is a bald misjudgment and underestimation of the influence of the gun lobby on skittish red-state lawmakers.

The quashing of the gun bill, the Times reports, was a simple “combination of the political anxiety of vulnerable Democrats from conservative states, deep-seated Republican resistance, and the enduring clout of the National Rifle Association.”


Not a single goddamned thing to do with the will of the American people, or what's right for our country, just, as usual, money and politics.


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Friday, April 19, 2013 8:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki,

Im sure you are familiar with the term "echo chamber".

Your kind are in a tizzy, even your leader had a meltdown.

It is incomprehensible (to you) that the majority of Americans, all individuals, disagree, dislike, and refute you and your kind.

So you need a boogieman. A giant monster whom you can blame. You just decided it should be the NRA, this time.

The truth is too scary for you, and we all get it.

YOU are the outsiders. YOU are the minority. YOU ARE WRONG.

Despite owning the major propaganda sources, despite running the schools, your kind FAILED to convince the American people. And its driving you nuts.

Good.

Be afraid. Know that your "message" has been rejected. Crawl away, and I'm sure, come back another day.

We will be ready.

And, waiting.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Friday, April 19, 2013 10:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...







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Friday, April 19, 2013 10:48 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
... that the majority of Americans, all individuals, disagree, dislike, and refute you and your kind. ...



I wish I could pretend to be surprised that this idiot doesn't understand the meaning of the word "majority"...

Strap on that tinfoil helmet, boy!




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 19, 2013 10:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


C'mon, Mark, there's ANYTHING about our BabyWulf that ever surprises you? Seriously, man...!

Two-dimensional world. Only three dimensional when it's in the movies. Total inability to grasp anything beyond the simplest concepts, and he clings to those for dear life. Nuance terrifies him; gray is a color beyond his grasp; compromise is Unamurican! If he ever wrote a simple, logical sentence we would probably fall over at our computers; everything has to be in Dramatic Terms, and he's always the Hero. All he knows how to do is spew, and he does it, day in and day out, without making even a modicum of sense.

And you haven't passed the point of being surprised? I'm ashamed of you.

But then, we both have better things to do than pay any attention to him or The Drunk, so onward... ;o)


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Friday, April 19, 2013 10:56 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


It's very simple, money talks - bullshit walks.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
In a nutshell:
Quote:

In the wake of the Sandy Hook shootings, polls have shown overwhelming public support for expanding background checks on gun sales, with one poll showing 9 out of 10 Americans backing the idea. Yet on Wednesday, a bill to do just that went down to defeat in the Senate. As President Obama pointed out, “The American people are trying to figure out how can something have 90 percent support and yet not happen.”

The simplest explanation for this disconnect is that Senate procedures enable minorities to thwart majorities. The legislation on background checks had the support of 54 of the 100 senators, but it takes 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

The simplest explanation for this disconnect is that Senate procedures enable minorities to thwart majorities. The legislation on background checks had the support of 54 of the 100 senators, but it takes 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

Second, issue polls typically include nonvoters as well as voters. But in the eyes of politicians, nonvoters are nonpersons. Elected officials focus on the people who actually show up to vote, and their sentiments might differ from those who stay home on Election Day.

More specifically, politicians also have to worry about the people who vote in primaries. Republicans and Democrats need to nurture their ideological bases, or else face defeat at the hands of primary opponents. This tendency has become more pronounced in recent years in the House of Representatives, where red districts have gotten redder and blue districts have gotten bluer.

Third, intensity comes into play, as a passionate minority can trump a relatively indifferent majority. The former will remember in November, but the latter won’t. Gun control has usually exhibited this pattern: Second Amendment enthusiasts will always get in touch with their lawmakers and vote on the basis of this one issue, while supporters of more gun regulation may answer “yes” to a survey question and then forget about it.

Fourth, presidents have only a limited ability to drive public opinion and mass political action. Even at the peak of his popularity, President Reagan was able to motivate cards and letters when he was selling something that people already liked (e.g., tax cuts). When he tried to stir Americans on tougher issues (e.g., aid to Nicaraguan rebels), he got nowhere.

Today, presidents work in a much more demanding media environment. Until the 1980s, they could “roadblock” the television networks with an Oval Office address. Now, they have to compete with hundreds of other channels and the Internet. Moreover, their critics and opponents have many more opportunities to respond in real time. Nobody live-blogged FDR’s “Day of Infamy” speech.

Fifth and perhaps most important, James Madison still rules America. The Framers designed a bicameral legislature and the separation of powers specifically to prevent an automatic translation of public opinion into public policy. Supporters of the system say that it fosters deliberation and ensures the protection of minority rights. Critics say that it prevents passage of necessary legislation.

The National Rifle Association wins so many battles because of its zeal, its persistence, and its organization. Those who want tougher restrictions on firearms have to stoke the same kind of ardor, matching the NRA letter for letter, email for email, and phone call for phone call. http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2013/0418/Why-the-90-perce
nt-lost-on-gun-background-checks?nav=87-frontpage-entryCommentary


It's not over. Not by a long shot. When something as watered-down as merely increasing background checks at gun shows to keep guns away from the most obvious "wrong people" can't pass in our government, it's something we all need to sit up and think about.


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Friday, April 19, 2013 11:01 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


It could have been 100% and it still wouldn't have mattered, the NRA has the biggest clout because they are backed by the Gun manufacturers. It's that simple, more money - more power.

So, guess what! You are right............

I really thought the world would end there, phew! close one!


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The " 90% " is as full of hokum and a made up number as the 99% crap.

Most folks rate this a complete NON issue, well behind the economy, sealing the border and ILLEGAL immigration.

Also, more legislation would have yielded exactly no effect on making anyone safer.

None. Zilch. Nodda.


That's why this nonsense failed.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall


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Friday, April 19, 2013 11:02 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
C'mon, Mark, there's ANYTHING about our BabyWulf that ever surprises you? Seriously, man...!

Two-dimensional world. Only three dimensional when it's in the movies. Total inability to grasp anything beyond the simplest concepts, and he clings to those for dear life. Nuance terrifies him; gray is a color beyond his grasp; compromise is Unamurican! If he ever wrote a simple, logical sentence we would probably fall over at our computers; everything has to be in Dramatic Terms, and he's always the Hero. All he knows how to do is spew, and he does it, day in and day out, without making even a modicum of sense.

And you haven't passed the point of being surprised? I'm ashamed of you.

But then, we both have better things to do than pay any attention to him or The Drunk, so onward... ;o)




I said I *wished* I was surprised - not that I actually was. Yes, a logical statement from that moron would absolutely floor me in shock.

And you're right - his hero fantasies are endlessly creepy (yet oddly amusing). He's gonna end up being the next George Zimmerman one day.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 19, 2013 11:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"And you're right - his hero fantasies are endlessly creepy (yet oddly amusing). He's gonna end up being the next George Zimmerman one day."

Neither of you have ever, in your meaningless lives, put yourselves on the line for strangers.

Its blatantly obvious.

Your opinions, mean nothing.

Sit and spin. Its all you can do.

Edit: Sad/funny part is I'm sure I've helped persons just like you. Didn't matter. Your doppelganger called for help, and we did our best to save them.





"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Friday, April 19, 2013 11:38 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

Blah blah blah.

Me awesome, libruls suck. 'Murricka!

*insert video clip*



Gee, is it me, or does every post from this idiot sound the same?




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 19, 2013 12:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Gee, is it me, or does every post from this idiot sound the same?


Nope, it's not just you, Story.
I find him every bit as offensive or more cause his ever flapping pie hole drowns out rational voices on the topic and provides a convenient strawman, especially since I know he ain't got the wit or courage to put any effort into making the world better, instead seeming to prefer demeaning it for everyone - something I find revolting, to be honest.

I do have one slam-shot of mine own here, though, in regards to the lies and hypocrisy which both sides engage in and the anti second amendment folk seem to think they deserve some kind of free pass about....

Remember that "not trying to take them away" thing ?
California Gun Confiscation Bill Passes, Approves $24 Million To Expedite Illegal Gun Seizure
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/california-gun-confiscation-b
ill_n_3117238.html


So, about that blatant lie there, hmm - something I pointed out was a lie long before now and got soundly flamed for, you remember ?

Factually, from a historical perspective such confiscations always lead to roundups, purges and massacres - something that in fact pre-dates firearms, just so you know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_hunt
Quote:

Prior to the sword hunt called by Oda Nobunaga towards the end of the 16th century, civilians were free to carry swords for defense or simply for decoration. Nobunaga sought an end to this, and ordered the seizure of swords and a variety of other weapons from civilians, in particular the Ikko-ikki peasant-monk leagues which sought to overthrow samurai rule.

In 1588, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, having become Kampaku (Imperial regent), ordered a new sword hunt; Hideyoshi, like Nobunaga, sought to solidify separations in the class structure, denying commoners weapons while allowing them to the nobles, the samurai class. In addition, Toyotomi's sword hunt, like Nobunaga's, was intended to prevent peasant uprisings, and to deny weapons to his adversaries. This hunt may have been inspired by a peasant uprising in Higo the year prior, but also served to disarm the warrior-monks of Mt. Koya and Tonomine. Toyotomi claimed that the confiscated weapons would be melted down and used to create a giant image of the Buddha for the Asuka-dera monastery in Nara.

The 'Taiko's Sword Hunt,' as it came to be called, was accompanied by a number of other edicts, including the Expulsion Edict of 1590, by which Toyotomi sought to establish a census and expel from villages any newcomers who arrived in or after 1590. The chief goal of this was to place a check on the threat posed by ronin, masterless wandering samurai who had the potential not only for crime and violence in general, but for banding together to overthrow Toyotomi rule. It may be important to note that Hideyoshi, like most of this period, believed in rule by edict, paying little or no attention to legal principles. Also, while the Sword Hunt ostensibly succeeded in denying weapons to potential rebels, it also created discontent throughout the nation, increasing the number and passion of potential rebels.


And watching the pattern of demonize-disarm-destroy being levelled by one faction against another here is also a damn obvious parallel, ergo I do not for a moment that the folks involved in it do not know what they are enabling.

Which makes them Jackals, the same as the rightwingnut intolerant asshats all praying for day of the rope, not that I'd mind seeing them swinging from the lightposts mind you, but when you get governments doin that shit you wind up like Somalia, Biafra, South Africa, and lotsa folk get scored as collaterals - so one has to ask how many innocent people that the folks pushing this agenda are willing to see dead in order to crush anything resembling opposition ?

Mind you, also worth noting the same excuses were being the rightwing push to crush the first and fourth amendments, something I also have no tolerance for - and the blatant, outright hypocrisy truly shows when it comes clear that none of them is willing to address the fact that the same so-called "reasonable restrictions" applied against voting drives them to rage and fury, despite having the same statistically negligable amount of incident, and don't bother shovelling that vote fraud never killed no one either as there's a whole lotta Iraqis who ain't around to ask no more cause of what happened with the former administrations climb to power, some of which folks were actually convicted for, mind you.
Not to mention many of historys worst and most genocidal were, yanno, elected.

So if the vote is as or more dangerous than a firearm, why then do they support restrictions on one, but scream a fit on the other, hmmmmm?
Especially when the essential arguments, stripped down to the essence, that BOTH SIDES are throwing at each other are exactly the same in either direction, ehe ?

To *me*, this is just like the Taliban vs Christian Right fanatics...
Not one damn dimes worth of difference, a matter of emphasis of oppression rather than anything else, and everyone wanting the leash in their hands and no one but me wanting to cut it, or so it seems.

Nor anyone with half a lick of sense (which excludes certain obvious posters) daring to properly call out the lies, hypocrisy, and propagandizing of this issue - not that I care much since one of the reasons I've been out and away was kneecapping this bullshit by twisting a whole lot of arms, cause you know what the very worst, most inhumane thing you can do to anyone ever is ?

Give them what they WANT, give it to em good and hard - only in this case too goddamn many innocent people would suffer if others were to let that happen, not that despite the lip-service to it, the folks behind care about that very much, or at least don't care nearly as much as they do about getting their way, and damn morals, laws, good conscience or even sense, in the doing of it.

So really, my opinion of yon wailing punk is kinda the same one I have at the folk he's wailing at -

So where does that leave me ?

-Frem

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Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oops, Mark, I missed the "wished"...bad reading skills. ;o) I should have known better.

And yeah, he could just insert what you quoted as his "contribution" just about any time he posts anything. That's pretty much all he ever says...

As to the confiscation of ILLEGAL GUNS, it's a pathetic rationalization for calling EVERYONE who said they had no intention of taking people's guns away a liar, and is a lie unto itself. We confiscate illegal bomb-making equipment too, I imagine, along with a lot of other illegal things. Bah.


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Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Horse. Shit.

It's plainly ex-post-facto, which is a Constitutional Violation of the worst order, not that you seem to care.

Also worth a mention is a certain problem which has already reared it's ugly head and is well addressed by Jonathan Turley here.

What is mental illness? Where is the bright line drawn?
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/04/14/what-is-mental-illness-where-is-t
he-bright-line-drawn
/
Quote:

In New York, a man’s home was raided, his Concealed Carry Permit revoked and guns confiscated because someone told the police he was taking an anti-anxiety medication. I have received emails in the past week from several friends about this issue. One of them is a vet, M?F transgendered. She is concerned about being able to renew her own Concealed Carry Permit (CCP). As a veteran and avid target-shooting hobbyist, she is well trained in gun safety and use. As a transgender woman, she is a target and prey according to FBI statistics. Hate crimes against LGBT people are at a 14-year high.

According to the DSM-IV-TR, “Gender Identity Disorder” is one of the mental illnesses. In the DSM-V, it is renamed “Gender Dysphoria.” While claiming it is not a mental illness, the fact that Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM-V in the first place makes it suspect in the eyes of many. Two days ago, she sent this excerpt from a local outlet:

The enforcement action started on March 29th when New York State Police asked the Erie County Clerk’s Office to pursue revoking the man’s pistol permit because he owned guns in violation of the mental health provision of New York’s newly enacted guns law called the SAFE ACT.

The allegation turned out to be untrue and his guns returned to him. As it turned out, the police, sua sponte, initiated the action. The only lawyer involved in the matter was the man’s own attorney.

Erie County Clerk Chris Jacobs said, “When the State Police called to tell us they made a mistake and had the wrong person…it became clear that the State did not do their job here, and now we all look foolish.”

Flaws in the mental health reporting provisions of the NY SAFE Act were blamed for the misunderstanding. The county clerk added, “Until the mental health provisions are fixed, these mistakes will continue to happen”


Now, MY viewpoint on this is that they were using the matter as a test-bed to see how far they could push it, and I found that especially offensive in light of my own recent efforts on a local level to increase access to proper mental health care, especially when one takes into account the massive overdiagnosis and overprescription of psychotropic meds regarding children, which could potentially short-circuit their second amendment and others rights before they are even legally able to defend them, which is a heap of total bullshit, as far as I am concerned.

On top of that, regarding another topic, is the simple fact that our so-called-justice system (no relation to actual justice) has a nasty little habit of rigging the game so people are forced to plead to things they didn't do just to be shut of it, which in combination with stripping of human/constitutional/civil rights is IMHO an offense against them all - one might remember I have some strong issues with the Forever-Felony-Mark-of-Doom and how that forces those inflicted by it into criminal behavior via limiting thier options to the point where they really have no other choice.
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/devils-bargain-how-plea-ag
reements-never-contemplated-framers-undermine-justice

When the powers that be have your ass in their custody, and regularly set bail in excess multiples of the suspects entire assets (in itself a violation of the eighth amendment, one so fucking prevalent a whole industry, bail bondsman, has sprung up around its violation) whilst the suspects employment, life, relationships, go to hell in a handbasket they really have em over a barrel, thus extorting said plea more often than not in vain hopes of escaping the system WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ACTUALLY GUILTY OF THE CRIME - which is one reason I reccommend fighting it out on the spot if you're not guilty even at risk of your own life these days, cause once you are in their custody, it's your ass - that whole let the courts decide it later bolus is a thin faction based on the ridiculous assumption that our courts are impartial, which given the incestous collaboration between judge-prosecutor-cops it cannot possibly be, especially when the word Testilying is in fact part of our lexicon.

This leads me to severe doubt (what one might call "reasonable doubt") of the surety of convictions, especially in regards to plea-bargaining, within our so-called-justice system to beging with, and beyond that - what reason, what cause, what rationale exists to continue to prosecute a crime against someone who has effectively paid whatever imagined debt they supposedly owe to society - do we then punish them forever to the point where shooting them in the head might be the more merciful course ?

No, once one has "paid off", *I* am of the opinion that ALL their Constitutional rights should be immediately restored on the spot, and factually I wonder if prisoners should not be allowed also to vote even while incarcerated cause such is a civil right and no provisions even exist within the Constitution for its revocation at ANY time - I can grudgingly allow temporary suspension of the second amendment right for obvious reasons at the time of sentence and it's enactment, but after which there damn well should be a second hearing regarding whether or not it can or should be revoked - this is a common sense measure, but of course common sense has NOTHING to do with the agendas being proposed here, obviously.


Speaking also of which, if you wanna overturn a Constitutional Amendment, there's a fucking PROCESS for that shit, which yanno, is what Prohibition was all about and you see how well that worked out - you do NOT end-run the process with hemming a right in with bullshit till it is all but invalid, frankly how would YOU like that done to YOU in regards to freedom of speech or religion, ehe ?
Lemme spell it out for you in case you missed it, these enumerated rights, and others that might not have been are IN-VIO-LATE, go look it up if you are unsure what that means, and they are not granted as gifts from any earthly Government but assumed as being an essential and integral part of being HUMAN (which means they apply to non-americans, just so ya know) and thus any effort to limit them in any way, shape or form, MUST go through the Constitutional Amendment Process for the very REASON of preventing well-meaning but historically or otherwise ignorant (or even downright malicious) folk from subverting them in advancing their own cause, whatever that may be.

Especially galling, again, is the simple fact that the same excuses being regulating the right to vote, which you and yours have soundly rejected - are the same ones behind this, which you apparently embracing, showing your total and deceitful hypocrisy for exactly what it is.

I do not pick and choose, when it comes to human rights, enumerated or not, I defend them all wholesale, for anyone, whether I like them or not, whether I agree with how they are used, or not, even when it burns me to do so, for to do any less, at any time, would stand in opposition to the principles for which I have stood my entire life whether or not I even understood or agreed with them at the time - it's not a matter of convenience or "side" with me so much as who and what I am, the very essence of all that I have ever been.

Nor are you arguing here with some convenient strawman ignoramous spouting regurgitated platitudes and soundbites, but someone with an actual knowledge of the process, the history behind it, and more importantly the reasons for which said process exists, namely to prevent exactly the same kind of abuses you wish to engage in because it supports your own agenda, which is, again IMHO, not even remotely related to your pretended intentions, not even for a moment.

Sure, I'd like to purge the hell out of these intolerant, racist, sexist, and profoundly ignorant fuckwads myself, but that must be done on a SOCIAL level, not a LEGAL one, or else you open yourself to the possibility of being similarly purged when you too become inconvenient to the powers that be, a lesson well shown in both history, and contemporary aspect in regards to many other countries, South America foremost among them, for all to see.

Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it's failures.

-Frem

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