WELP by BYTEMITE

Got it

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:53 PM

It's why I'm trying to bump threads from a variety of voices.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:58 PM

A good idea in terms of getting more representation, however problems with increasing inundation of information and cannot deal. Tidal Wave.

Recommending burn RWED board down and waiting a few months for seedlings to sprout and animals to migrate back in, like a wildfire in a forest.

EDIT: I have calmed down due to creative reimagining of board dynamics and am back to being amused.

However, I suspect others may want some kind of solution to this game of one-ups-manship being played out.

When other parts of Fireflyfans were very popular (I mean the fanfic area), writers used to have a mutually agreed upon rule, that they would not post new items more than a certain amount of times in a time frame, so as all items got all due attention deserved.

While concerned about the free speech issue that such a limitation could constrain, it is apparent that the current post spree is in response to certain posters feeling that another poster is rather prolific.

Can there be a compromise here? or SOMETHING?

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 2:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
A good idea in terms of getting more representation, however problems with increasing inundation of information and cannot deal. Tidal Wave.

Recommending burn RWED board down and waiting a few months for seedlings to sprout and animals to migrate back in, like a wildfire in a forest.

EDIT: I have calmed down due to creative reimagining of board dynamics and am back to being amused.

However, I suspect others may want some kind of solution to this game of one-ups-manship being played out.

When other parts of Fireflyfans were very popular (I mean the fanfic area), writers used to have a mutually agreed upon rule, that they would not post new items more than a certain amount of times in a time frame, so as all items got all due attention deserved.

While concerned about the free speech issue that such a limitation could constrain, it is apparent that the current post spree is in response to certain posters feeling that another poster is rather prolific.

Can there be a compromise here? or SOMETHING?

Since you put all that so eloquently, I'll let you know that I'm suspending any new thread topic activity until further notice. Enjoy the board again.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 2:27 PM

Just for the record, this

Quote:
While concerned about the free speech issue that such a limitation could constrain, it is apparent that the current post spree is in response to certain posters feeling that another poster is rather prolific.

had nothing to do with the last three days. The prolific poster dynamic has been in place for a few years now. It was quite another thing. Again, enjoy.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Just for the record, this
Quote:
While concerned about the free speech issue that such a limitation could constrain, it is apparent that the current post spree is in response to certain posters feeling that another poster is rather prolific.

had nothing to do with the last three days. The prolific poster dynamic has been in place for a few years now. It was quite another thing. Again, enjoy.

Huh! What a surpriiiiise! I had no idea this was a retaliation against Niki. I WOULDA NEVER GUESSED.

The point is, can you and her WORK SOMETHING OUT already?

Both sides have hurt feelings and anger over whatnot fine fine I get that. But the way to deal with this is not to have tag-team pile-ons against you and AURaptor and Wulf and to have one of you respond with a conservative board bomb, okay?

It's not about driving the other side off the board. None of you are going to leave because you all like the arguments. And neither side of you guys are evil monsters who are going to wreck this country. Country's doing a good job of that all by itself regardless of what maybe like seven or eight people on the internet think.

This is not an example of functional interactions here. If you're all that pissed off, ignore each other and talk to your friends instead, or take a break, take up crotchet, who knows! But taking someone down on the internet a few notches can't possibly be worth this amount of effort. And Jongs, I thought you had heart troubles to think about.

Come on, guys. Disagreeing with people is not a valid excuse to forget that the other people are HUMAN.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:10 PM

EDIT: Siiiiigh double

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:54 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It was quite another thing.

You mean it was due to the fact that you're an asshole with no respect for any voice but your own?

Duly noted.

Duly noted some time ago, in fact. It wasn't necessary for you to have posting diarrhea all over this site to illustrate the point.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:22 PM

And while Jongs was the camel that snapped my very frayed nerves, gotta call out some of the insults I see slung by everyone around here.

Jongs PROBABLY did what he did because he felt like he was under attack, and felt like he had to counter attack. Understandable. Not because he only wants to hear his own voice, not because he's an asshole, not because he was clasping his hands going "mwahahaha, gonna push all them librul threads off the front page." He was simply so annoyed by a personal issue that he wasn't fully aware of all the consequences of his actions.

I am just offering the advice for him to PLEASE RESIST THE URGE next time. it's not going to make anything better or help anything! It makes things worse, in fact. Pours fuel on the fire.

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Wednesday, May 15, 2013 8:30 PM

Yep, lots of nasty insults go down here.

But as I have said before, there are lots of ways to be mean to others. Some do it more subtly than others, but the aim is still attack.

Example A: You're a pathetic loser who can't spell and whose brain is the size of a walnut.

(No explanations needed here about how this is an attack)

Example B: All Australians are freedom hating commies who want to kill babies.

(The attack is in the misrepresentation of position or beliefs. This is quite common on this board.)

I could go on and on with other examples. People have a seemingly endless supply of ammunititon when attacking others. One day I will write a book.

I suppose the reason that I draw attention to this, is that there are many ways to attack another person on a board, or to make others feel uncomfortable. It is easy to call out the overt stuff, but others here get away with a lot because they are sneakier.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:37 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Since you put all that so eloquently, I'll let you know that I'm suspending any new thread topic activity until further notice. Enjoy the board again.

In one of the many other threads Jong started, somebody was complaining about him starting too many. I predicted there that he couldn't keep it up, and would get tired and cut back soon.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:15 AM

Quote:
It is easy to call out the overt stuff, but others here get away with a lot because they are sneakier.

The board bomb is the sneakiest thing I've seen the conservatives do, and, uh, it's not exactly "sneaky". More like "really friggin' flagrant."

We have signatures of people calling other people some pretty foul language. Subtlety this ain't.

It all contributes though. Every slur from one side or another provokes things hotter, things keep escalating, and eventually you have an inferno. And then one person spams the board and it becomes like a scorched earth tactic kinda thing.

Everyone on the board feels justified over whatever insult someone said to them. I've been moping around for like two months because of something Niki said to me. But retaliating doesn't HELP. Trust me on that. Putting stuff in your sig to remind you of what they insults they said to you while broadcasting how you feel about that person? Doesn't help. Letting bad feelings spill over between threads? Doesn't help. Reactionary behaviour when they show up in one of your side's threads? Doesn't help. Going into their threads to post about how stupid they are and how they just repeat talking points from their side? Doesn't help.

I can understand arguing, reasonable debates, and disagreements. I understand people expressing themselves and their beliefs. But what I see on the board has become something different than any of that. What Jong did is a symptom of a greater underlying problem.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

First I have to state: There are certainly no "hurt feelings and anger over whatnot fine fine" on my side, nor resentment for Jong's post-fest or anything ELSE. I guess Byte hasn't caught the numerous places I've mentioned that it hasn't bothered me in the least. I do resent PN's thread slathering and have said so quite clearly, for the following reasons: a) He doesn't care to start discussions, he just slathers; b) His threads are usually stupid and/or insane; c) from what some of have said here, he does it at least partly for money; d) I find his hate-filled rhetoric, ugly graphics and overt racism offensive. That's the only "resentment" I feel or have felt, and I've made it quite clear that I have NO problem with Jong's thread-fest. So can we stop that projection, please?

Quote:
Approximate ability of anyone being able to learn anything or hold conversations in deluge, estimated beginning oh since last November: zero

Totally untrue. I've learned a LOT from things various people have posted; I've learned some things from stuff people have posted in responses to stuff I've put up; occasionally people have clearly stated that they learned something in a thread I began; and we've had numerous interesting discussions since last November.

I also do not slather the board for the sake of doing so. As I've said before and will no doubt be required to say again, I look around for articles about things that interest me in the news and/or that I think might be of interest to others to discuss. It's entirely up to the people on the board whether those threads get no response so disappear down the list or become an actual discussion. That's what RWED is all about, isn't it?

Since Jong started whatever it is he's been doing, and before that as well, there has never been ANY game of "one-upmanship" on my part. I've gone right on looking for articles; in many cases in the past few days, Jong has already put UP threads about things I would have put up, so I've responded to those rather than post duplication. But nothing whatsoever has changed for ME, and I've never been in competition with anyone.

MY own curiosity has been to find out about "It was quite another thing." Jong wrote quite clearly that he had an agenda for doing what he did, and that it was going to be a finite effort. I was glad to hear that, and I've been waiting ever since to find out what it is. I can think of many things (to me, it never occurred that he was doing it in a game of one-upmanship anyway), but there are too many possibilities for me to conjecture, I'm just waiting patiently for him to explain his purpose and what, if anything, he gained from the experiment. Unlike Riona, I never had expectations of "friendship" from Jong (except for briefly agreeing we're frenemies, in that at one time we agreed on a whole host of things), so his experimenting on us doesn't bother me, I'm just curious to see why and what came out of it.

I also never experienced the "tidal wave" Byte mentioned; for me, it's fairly easy to scan the titles and see which, if any, I'm interested enough in to read and maybe respond to. The ONLY problem I had was that threads which HAD become discussions of one sort or another ended up being way down or on the next page because of the sheer volume, so I had to go hunt for them; Magons solved that nicely by bringing them back up; thank you Magons.

Byte, you can call out insults all you want; you KNOW it will do nothing. How many times did I try, and what were all the things I got called for it? Each time I try to go back to being civil, and every damned time I end up falling into the same trap of giving as good as I get, it's pretty natural. I no longer try very hard to be civil to some, but I also don't stoop as low as many, and I'm probably the one person here who has been MOST viciously attacked by several people, couple of them still on the forum. So what? Can't change it; anyone can post anything they want; calls for civility are pissing into the wind.

But go right ahead; I personally wish you COULD be successful, and would love civil debate. It ain't gonna happen. And your efforts to take everyone to task are just pissing into the wind; if you enjoy it, if it makes you feel good about yourself, huzzah, but don't expect anything to come from it. Seriously; you've been here FAR too long not to remember every time someone decried the nastiness of RWED, and has it ever changed anything?? Duh!

If you don't like threads I post, don't read them...everyone knows that. Nobody has to read every thread, or even any thread. If there are too many for you, go find threads you DO want to participate in and stick to those, that will bring them to the top and anything nobody's interested in will sink; that's how it works, period.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 6:53 AM

Quote:
I guess Byte hasn't caught the numerous places I've mentioned that it hasn't bothered me in the least.

Oh, I've SEEN them. But we're not automatons. You catch a lot of flak, and as thick skinned as people try to act on the internet, we all have our limits.

I've seen you be hurt about Frem, and pretend that you aren't really hurt oh haha it's just the internet. People feel like they have to act strong I guess or people will think there's blood in the water. But to be completely unaffected by anything? No one is.

They have needled you forever, and you needle them in return. I understand. People defend themselves, and when they're pushed, they might defend themselves with less civility. But a vast majority of interactions on the board have become this. It is a huge problem.

Quote:
It's entirely up to the people on the board whether those threads get no response so disappear down the list or become an actual discussion. That's what RWED is all about, isn't it?

Right now it's about how most of the threads that get posted devolve into some irrelevant flame war complete with sniping. Or how someone thinks someone else is posting too much so hey let's go ahead and BOMB THE ENTIRE BOARD YEAH that'll show them!

And maybe you haven't done this intentionally yourself, but people on the right wing THINK you have. Because there's no trust, no respect between the two sides.

We have got to settle our problems out because this is frankly getting unbelievable around here.

Quote:
Seriously; you've been here FAR too long not to remember every time someone decried the nastiness of RWED, and has it ever changed anything?? Duh!

That doesn't mean STOP TRYING. It's become a vicious cycle! A downward spiral, even.

You really look around here and you think "nope! not a problem?"

We just saw a retaliation against -whatever- that actually began to impede the ability of people to navigate the board and comment and hold conversations with each other, and that is far from the worst possible attack someone could do here. That someone feels the need to do something like this indicates that things have gotten a bit wild here.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:16 AM

At this point I'm almost wondering if we need to split the RWED. Have a separate board for both right wing and left wing news, and then a "mixing ground" of sorts. Maybe if both sides felt like they had a safe haven to retreat to and post in, we wouldn't get this amount of vitriol in the middle.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Aw, Byte, I'm sorry you think what you do. Honey, it's not about being thick skinned or an automaton, it's what's IMPORTANT to you/me. The internet just isn't that important, nor are 99% of the people on this forum. I come here for entertainment; it's easy as pie to skip over the idiotic parts and enjoy the heck out of the rest, and then I go on with the rest of my day, which is chock full of REAL things that COULD upset me--and some do--and about which I care. I'm so sad you can't "get" that.

More than anything else, the Frem thing made me sad, and still does when I think of it. Mostly because he would send me little clips of raccoons and stuff he met on his rounds, and we had some laughs together in e-mail, but we certainly weren't "close" at all. I sent some stuff out for Wendy and enjoyed his clips, but I didn't even agree with a lot of what he said on RWED, and I'll be honest, his posts were such rambles, usually about the same things or same kind of things, I didn't actually read a lot of them. Mostly what happened left me puzzled, and kind of sad that someone couldn't understand that the argument was about him calling me a liar, not about guns. Very strange, but I'm more than used to "strange" on RWED, so that's that. I put too much time and effort into trying to work it out with him on the forum; when I realized that, it made me question my priorities and wonder if I WAS getting too involved in this place, so I backed off. Admittedly, the flood of stuff I got when I intended to back off made me feel very warm and is one reason I stayed, but it's all in the past and was the only time anyone actually upset me, however briefly.

Quote:
Right now it's about how most of the threads that get posted devolve into some irrelevant flame war complete with sniping.

Yes, definitely that. And I don't like it any more than you do, and when we DO get the occasional chance to have a valid discussion, I love it. But how long has it been like that? Before I came, I've read, it was even worse; supposedly around elections it gets worse; and the place I came from, it was MUCH worse! So what? It's one forum on one website, it's just not that important, is it?

And who's bombed the board? Jong has been quite clear that he didn't do his thread splurge because of me, or to "bomb the board", we just have to wait for him to explain why he did it and what, if anything, he got out of it. Six has put up threads complaining about me personally, as have a few others over time; I've put up a couple of threads complaining about this person or that in the past, but it's just not that big a deal, it really isn't.

I have absolutely no control over what anyone else thinks of me, right, left or otherwise. All I can do is be honest about myself and tell the truth; to worry much beyond that about what others think is an immense exercise in futility, and doing so HERE would be downright self-destructive, not to mention masochistic!

Keep calling for peace if you want to, but it's not going to change anything; this is the way the internet IS, especially places like this. People get something out of being nasty, or they wouldn't do it. For me it's a way of expressing my frustration that we CAN'T have reasonable discussions and debates, a way of not taking it seriously; I long ago gave up "trying", but certainly if it changed, I'd work hard at being civil again.

But it would take an effort on the part of the majority of posters here to make it work, and I seriously doubt you'd get any kind of effort out of even a fair number of them, much less any "majority". I think you're getting wound up about this; no, we don't have to "settle our problems out", we never have, we never will, it's RWED. Dunno why you're off on this tangent, but go right ahead, if it does something for you. Would be NICE if you'd not involve me in it, but you can write anything you want, so I'll stop trying to reason with you.

I can't stop you imagining that I'm somehow hurt, retaliating, or whatever it is you are thinking about me, all I can do is tell you that you're wrong. There are a few people here I'm sort of friends with outside the forum, a couple who may visit me, which would be really neat, but nobody here is actually capable of hurting my feelings; it's just not that important, period. I'm sorry it's got you so upset, I hope it passes quickly for you.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:31 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Just caught that last post. Byte, if such a thing happened, you really don't think the hard-core righties here wouldn't be IN the left-wing forum, spewing every which way? Maybe some of the hard-core lefties would, too, I can't know; I wouldn't. But then I wouldn't want split forums anyway, I'd prefer if it were possible (which it's not) to have a forum where people can discuss things civilly and another where they can scream at one another.

You're not going to change anything, this is an unmoderated website and people like it that way; that means they're willing to put up with a lot of crap. If they're not, they go elsewhere, as so many good (and bad) voices have. Try not to let it get to you; take a break if you need to, do something healthy for yourself or spend your time in other forums or something. It's not worth getting head up about, honest.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:56 AM

Quote:
The internet just isn't that important, nor are 99% of the people on this forum.

But it is and they are. One of the friends I've had the longest is someone I've never met in real life, when people I knew in high school and college have grown apart. People on the internet have helped me through rough patches, helped me with suicidal feelings and depression, and I've helped people I know as well. One voice on the internet can be the difference between the end of a rope and LIFE.

Because it isn't JUST the internet. It's also people. Human people with all their flaws and inconsistencies and cruelty but sometimes they CARE too.

We were all friends once. We helped each other and did stuff for each other. Something changed.

It's like the problems we have every election cycle never stopped. Things never really settled back down to normal. I don't know why. My only guess is that the tension between sides have a backlog of stuff that's happened to them, and it all hit a critical mass.

Quote:
More than anything else, the Frem thing made me sad, and still does when I think of it.

I'm sorry. Frem's actually unhappy in his way too, he saw the whole thing about the gun control argument as some kind of betrayal. Of course Frem hurts an angry hurt, but I can still see it.

It's one example of what I'm talking about. Frem feels so strongly about gun control that disagreement felt like betrayal, and when you disagreed and he went after you the way he did, that probably felt like a betrayal too. Frem let the politics become more important than the people behind it.

He has personal reasons for feeling that way, personal experiences that marked him. I know it's probably not something that you can forgive, but it's just kinda tragic.

Quote:
But how long has it been like that? Before I came, I've read, it was even worse; supposedly around elections it gets worse; and the place I came from, it was MUCH worse!

Perhaps. But I haven't seen anything what Jongstraw did here, and I was here a year before you were. I think it's time to start to wonder if now isn't worse than the bad times in the past. I saw the tail end of some of the people called out for being bad influences, saw some of the nastiness of their insults.

The insults may not be as bad. But this is still something else altogether. This is a new level of dislike and vitriol.

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Jong has been quite clear that he didn't do his thread splurge because of me, or to "bomb the board"

Oh I think what he said above was exactly such an admission. I understand why he did it but it was unacceptable.

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this is the way the internet IS, especially places like this.

Not always. I've been on very civil boards. And this board IS very civil, everywhere BUT the RWED. That says something about all of us both on and off the RWED. We CAN be civil. So what's going on here?

Quote:
I think you're getting wound up about this; no, we don't have to "settle our problems out", we never have, we never will, it's RWED.

I've seen Chrisisall go after AuRaptor. And they always had a vitriolic element, sure. But both of them used to at least acknowledge that they were friends outside the RWED.

This isn't the old RWED anymore. Something IS wrong. And I think maybe it IS time to settle some problems out.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:15 AM

Quote:
Maybe some of the hard-core lefties would, too, I can't know; I wouldn't.

If you can't know about the lefties, can you be so sure about the righties?

What if it's being confronted with opposing viewpoints that a person disagrees with so strongly every single day that's bringing out this kind of hostile behaviour between people here? What if just seeing it is starting to provoke people?

Quote:
It's not worth getting head up about, honest.

People are clearly angry and hurty. Maybe not you particularly, but some people seem to be. That seems like something I should care about.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 9:29 AM

You don't need to see my identity papers.
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Move along, move along.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:52 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Quote:
More than anything else, the Frem thing made me sad, and still does when I think of it.

I'm sorry. Frem's actually unhappy in his way too, he saw the whole thing about the gun control argument as some kind of betrayal. Of course Frem hurts an angry hurt, but I can still see it.

It's one example of what I'm talking about. Frem feels so strongly about gun control that disagreement felt like betrayal, and when you disagreed and he went after you the way he did, that probably felt like a betrayal too. Frem let the politics become more important than the people behind it.

He has personal reasons for feeling that way, personal experiences that marked him. I know it's probably not something that you can forgive, but it's just kinda tragic.

I musta missed that. Musta happened while I didn't have access, or while my monitor was dead and system down.

And I neither WANT, nor NEED, it recapped, thanx anyway.

I have noticed that he doesn't post much anymore, almost never. I miss him. He had his own crazy reactions to some things, from my POV, but I respected his opinions, based on his real life experiences in some fields.

He is/was not a personal friend of mine, in any sense, but a respected, different voice worth considering. Where he and I disagreed, we managed to keep respectable. If you communicate with him, convey my regards.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:43 AM

I don't mind differences of opinions, but I'd prefer if people would post thoughtful responses regarding their views, not the

'libtards worship Obama'
'righties are crazy'
'you can't spell moron'

kind of posts. But I get that posters are tired of one anothers views, and also see it as some kind of sport, which personally I don't find very nice.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You don't need to see my identity papers.
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Move along, move along.

Sorry, not meaning to pile on you Jongs. Just that what happened was a symptom of a problem, and seems like a blatant symptom too. You just happened to be the one at the wheel, but it could've been anyone on any side who decided to go off like that.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I don't mind differences of opinions, but I'd prefer if people would post thoughtful responses regarding their views, not the

'libtards worship Obama'
'righties are crazy'
'you can't spell moron'

kind of posts. But I get that posters are tired of one anothers views, and also see it as some kind of sport, which personally I don't find very nice.

That could go a long way towards helping. And if people can't post with consideration to people they disagree with, maybe they're better off making those posts among their circles of friends, and then coming here to post more reasoned responses once they've vented their frustration.

NOBC, I'll pass that along next time I talk to Frem.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Sorry, not meaning to pile on you Jongs. Just that what happened was a symptom of a problem, and seems like a blatant symptom too. You just happened to be the one at the wheel, but it could've been anyone on any side who decided to go off like that.

Quote:

That could go a long way towards helping. And if people can't post with consideration to people they disagree with, maybe they're better off making those posts among their circles of friends, and then coming here to post more reasoned responses once they've vented their frustration.

I think you're on to some good things there, but RWED is what it is. The people here are what they are. In terms of gaining or earning any respect or trust with any ideological opposite here, I've never seen it last more than a post or two. So be it, but I like your effort.

eta : Just saw this gem from your pal NOBC in a thread that I posted and Auraptor responded to.....

"OMG, it's Rap/Jong circle jerk. Get a room already."

Nothing to add, nothing to say, just a juvenile idiot's spew. And I've seen that particular expression increasingly used by many of your pals recently. And some of your pals like Niki talk about wanting conversations? Why don't you try starting with that.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 3:42 PM

How about we all start with taking responsibility for ourselves.

Byte can't control what other people say on this forum, any more than I can or you can. If people choose to snark or be rude, it certainly isn't with my blessing, nor do I note that Byte condones that sort of behaviour either. I'm personally loathe to pick people up on it because I'm guilty of doing it. And so are you Jong, by the way.

What about leading by example?

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:41 PM

HKCAVALIER

I really don't see the point in blaming our fellow browncoats for what's going on here. Yes the RWED has "gotten bad," perhaps worse than it's ever been, but look at this country and the world? Could the same not be said of the whole shebang?

I see the RWED as a reflection of the larger culture. A particularly focused and intellectually stimulating reflection, but a reflection nonetheless. Always have. This has to be one of the most politically discouraging years on record, for everyone of every political persuasion. We've all had to see how some of the most horrible things in the world are beyond the reach of politics to address. This was the year the progressives were finally gonna get some sensible gun regulation, remember? Nope. They got nothing. As in: at all. I told everyone here. I told Frem to stop worrying because NOTHING would come of it and nothing did. And now we have Scandalpalooza, and I'm afraid it will be absolutely every bit as frustrating for the conservatives.

Sorry, guys, you will get exactly nothing out of these scandals.

Here's what I think is going on, and it's huge. And frankly, a little scary. Remember how wars were conducted for hundreds of years in Europe before the 19th Century? Battles so orderly and chivalrous that ladyfolk could sit on the sidelines to watch? Then what happened? Somehow, for hundreds of years, the purpose of war was not simply to kill as many of the other guy as you could before they killed you. But then that all changed. Killing other people became the central, all-consuming purpose of war. And damn, we've gotten so good at it, we threaten the entire planet from time to time. "Total war" is what we got nowadays.

Well, I see a similar revolution happening in politics. For the past two centuries politics have, more or less, worked in this country. Everyone, more or less, followed the rules and there was such a thing as "civil society."

We're in the midst of all that changing permanently. We're entering the era of "total politics" and I'm not at all sure what that will mean. Will it mean an endgame of thousands of armed gangs across the land keeping the peace or will it blossom into the "absolute democracy" of a fully integrated online society? Some quasi-apocalyptic amalgam of both?

I think the right-wing is changing, and I think RWED affords us a front row seat for that transformation. They're finally getting a taste for information. They're finally interested in informing themselves and I think the Obama admin. is partially responsible. Because Obama is the first ever "Other" for President, the right have felt freer to explore their ambivalence about the system and about America itself (they wouldn't couch it in such terms, of course, but I'm sure they can speak for themselves and will). I think they didn't see Bush doing all these things because they just couldn't/wouldn't see past the Office of President. Now they have and I wonder if that genie is ever going back in the bottle? I wonder if Alex Jones will become the new Rush Limbaugh and the conservatives will get more and more radicalized.

Anyway, I find all of this deeply troubling and fascinating and, at times, even exhilarating. Don't go changin', RWED.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

How about we all start with taking responsibility for ourselves.

Byte can't control what other people say on this forum, any more than I can or you can. If people choose to snark or be rude, it certainly isn't with my blessing, nor do I note that Byte condones that sort of behaviour either. I'm personally loathe to pick people up on it because I'm guilty of doing it. And so are you Jong, by the way.

What about leading by example?

Leading for who?

By example for who?

Have I ever attacked you personally?

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The "separate part of the board" for people who bomb the board with an absolutely un-discussable number of posts is called "troll country", because they are completely abusing the discussion area that Haken has so generously set up. PN definitely belongs there; nobody has asked for his posts to be moved off into neverland because... well, we're just tolerant of fascist paranoids trying to make money off this website. Jongsstraw was moving in that direction. A few more days of his utterly spamming the board would have probably prompted SOMEONE to get in touch with Haken.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:26 PM

That's funny Signy. Feel free to try any time you want. I put up about 50 threads in 3 days. That's 17 per day, which is less than one per hour. But you and I know that's not your real beef. You just hate any opposition to anything you believe. You're the single most intolerant person in the history of this place. You loathe the threads I put up because every title stung you to the bone. In fact, you pretty much hid under your rock the whole time, only occasionally popping your head out to see if the coast was clear.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

I see the RWED as a reflection of the larger culture. A particularly focused and intellectually stimulating reflection, but a reflection nonetheless.

True, but it's a culture that doesn't really exist in the real world nearly as much as it seems to on tv or the web.

Quote:
And now we have Scandalpalooza, and I'm afraid it will be absolutely every bit as frustrating for the conservatives.

Very true. I said the same thing yesterday.

Quote:
We're entering the era of "total politics" and I'm not at all sure what that will mean. Will it mean an endgame of thousands of armed gangs across the land keeping the peace or will it blossom into the "absolute democracy" of a fully integrated online society? Some quasi-apocalyptic amalgam of both?

Quasi-apocalyptic amalgam? Americans aren't smart enough for that. Half the population doesn't know or care about anything.

Quote:
I wonder if that genie is ever going back in the bottle? I wonder if Alex Jones will become the new Rush Limbaugh and the conservatives will get more and more radicalized.

Rush may speak to and for 30 million Conservatives, but 100 million of us other Conservatives find him almost as annoying as you do. We're not radicals and we'll never become radicalized by a non-entity psycho like Alex Jones or anyone else.

Quote:
Anyway, I find all of this deeply troubling and fascinating and, at times, even exhilarating.

I feel bad for young people. Opportunities and personal freedom are diminishing, and the state of politics is toxic and vile. This is a legacy left by...who, I don't know. I was 20 when Watergate happened and I remember feeling pretty shitty about the the country. Then I finished college, stayed away from current events, and the world seemed much brighter.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You just hate any opposition to anything you believe. You're the single most intolerant person in the history of this place. You loathe the threads I put up because every title stung you to the bone. In fact, you pretty much hid under your rock the whole time, only occasionally popping your head out to see if the coast was clear.

Is that what you really think, Jongsstraw?

Yanno, I have a job. Hubby was REALLY sick the past few weeks, trending into toxic shock. Daughter is brain damaged, and needs more than the average amount of attention. We've had three plumbing problems in one week. AND, I planted my veggie garden (Kind of spur of the moment, but what the hay!) All of this is to say: I have a life, and haven't had all that much time to spend here in the past two months, because when I spend time here I'm probably neglecting something else. I can't POSSIBLY respond to 17 posts in one day. If you had LEFT it at 17 posts, I MIGHT have caught up with it, but responding to all 45 posts??? Are you out of your mind? I can't do it...

And apparently neither can you. Because of the posts I DID manage to respond to, I actually agreed with a fair number. If you had READ my posts, you would have noticed that.

What frustrates me about this board are people who simply DO NOT respond to the discussion. Their minds are absolutely immovable... ie completely non-functional. I would LOVE to get into a an honest-to-god adult discussion ... yanno What do you think? Why do you feel that way? What is your evidence? What do you mean by...? but there are people here who seem incapable of responding in an intellectually flexible way.

Which is exactly what you did. I will repeat what I said before: If you want a response, you'll have to be patient. But I can't imagine that you really, truly wanted a response... you couldn't possibly have a realistic expectation than people have the time to respond to every single one of your posts, do you? Since it's not even remotely possible, what are you really trying to do?

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
You just hate any opposition to anything you believe. You're the single most intolerant person in the history of this place. You loathe the threads I put up because every title stung you to the bone. In fact, you pretty much hid under your rock the whole time, only occasionally popping your head out to see if the coast was clear.
Is that what you really think, Jongsstraw?

Yanno, I have a job. Hubby was REALLY sick the past few weeks, trending into toxic shock. Daughter is brain damaged, and needs more than the average amount of attention. We've had three plumbing problems in one week. AND, I planted my veggie garden (Kind of spur of the moment, but what the hay!) All of this is to say: I have a life, and haven't had all that much time to spend here in the past two months, because when I spend time here I'm probably neglecting something else. I can't POSSIBLY respond to 17 posts in one day.

But, apparently neither can you, because of the posts I DID manage to respond to, I actually agreed with a fair number. If you had READ my posts, you would have noticed that.

What frustrates me about this board are people who simply DO NOT respond to the discussion. Their minds are absolutely immovable... ie completely non-functional. I would LOVE to get into a an honest-to-god adult discussion ... yanno What do you think? Why do you feel that way? What is your evidence? What do you mean by...? but there are people here who seem incapable of responding in an intellectually flexible way.

I apologize for my words Signy. I can't take them back, but I'd like to. Sorry for your personal troubles. Everything you said had truth in it. I went way over a line that you and I have sort of lived with for a long time. Again, I apologize for it.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 6:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Eh, and you will see that my previous post was edited while you were writing yours. That's because while I was in the middle of writing, hubby got home and needed eardrops and an antibiotic. Also, a look at his ingrown toenail. Since he has Type II diabetes (from previous high-dose steroid treatment) every infection gets a real close look. Seriously, if I can get fifteen uninterrupted minutes here, that's a big deal. So sorry for the disjunctive posts.

Jongsie, I appreciate talkiing to you most of the time. I know we don't agree, but you have the sourest view of the world I have ever run into, and - because of that- you are quite often correct about a lot of things. You're like that super-sour candy that people somehow just can't stop eating!

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Leading for who?

For other posters on this board

Quote:
By example for who?

For other posters on this board

Quote:
Have I ever attacked you personally?

Not that I can remember.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 6:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Jongsie, I appreciate talkiing to you most of the time. I know we don't agree, but you have the sourest view of the world I have ever run into, and - because of that- you are quite often correct about a lot of things. You're like that super-sour candy that people somehow just can't stop eating!

Super-sour candy with a sour view of the world? That's interesting because when I get Sweet and Sour Pork delivered I usually only eat the Sweet. I remember that years ago you said something similar, except then it was something akin to me being rigid and direct and consistent. My three grown-up kids think I was a great dad. I think my wife still likes me. They say some get grumpy as they age. I'll try to watch out for that.

eta.

Quote:
because of that- you are quite often correct about a lot of things.

I kinda missed that before. You're a rare liberal in RWED to say that. Thank you!

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Sorry, not meaning to pile on you Jongs. Just that what happened was a symptom of a problem, and seems like a blatant symptom too. You just happened to be the one at the wheel, but it could've been anyone on any side who decided to go off like that.

Quote:

That could go a long way towards helping. And if people can't post with consideration to people they disagree with, maybe they're better off making those posts among their circles of friends, and then coming here to post more reasoned responses once they've vented their frustration.

I think you're on to some good things there, but RWED is what it is. The people here are what they are. In terms of gaining or earning any respect or trust with any ideological opposite here, I've never seen it last more than a post or two. So be it, but I like your effort.

eta : Just saw this gem from your pal NOBC in a thread that I posted and Auraptor responded to.....

"OMG, it's Rap/Jong circle jerk. Get a room already."

Nothing to add, nothing to say, just a juvenile idiot's spew. And I've seen that particular expression increasingly used by many of your pals recently. And some of your pals like Niki talk about wanting conversations? Why don't you try starting with that.

I didn't see NOBC say that, but that was also inappropriate.

In truth, I don't know NOBC that much. I haven't seen them post much on the RWED but recently. I know they've written some fanfic, but a lot of it was kind of before my time.

I am as frustrated with left-wing attacks on right wing as I am the right wing towards the left, as I've ALWAYS been. I've gone after Niki, I've gone after Wulf, I've gone after Sig, Kane, 1kiki, AuRaptor, Kwicko, DT, and Frem, whenever I think someone has gone a little too far. I'm still anarchist, but I still try to be neutral and not support one side or another. I defended some people a long time ago, let the bias and my own political inclinations influence me instead of seeing the whole picture or the weight of all the insults. But I've avoided taking sides recently, even had some falling out with some of the other anarchists.

We can't help other people. But we can help ourselves. And that'll help the situation.

I'm pleased to see this exchange. This is what I mean by seeing humanity in each other. You're both good people, you just disagree on some things.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Sorry, not meaning to pile on you Jongs. Just that what happened was a symptom of a problem, and seems like a blatant symptom too. You just happened to be the one at the wheel, but it could've been anyone on any side who decided to go off like that.

Quote:

That could go a long way towards helping. And if people can't post with consideration to people they disagree with, maybe they're better off making those posts among their circles of friends, and then coming here to post more reasoned responses once they've vented their frustration.

I think you're on to some good things there, but RWED is what it is. The people here are what they are. In terms of gaining or earning any respect or trust with any ideological opposite here, I've never seen it last more than a post or two. So be it, but I like your effort.

eta : Just saw this gem from your pal NOBC in a thread that I posted and Auraptor responded to.....

"OMG, it's Rap/Jong circle jerk. Get a room already."

Nothing to add, nothing to say, just a juvenile idiot's spew. And I've seen that particular expression increasingly used by many of your pals recently. And some of your pals like Niki talk about wanting conversations? Why don't you try starting with that.

I didn't see NOBC say that, but that was also inappropriate.

In truth, I don't know NOBC that much. I haven't seen them post much on the RWED but recently. I know they've written some fanfic, but a lot of it was kind of before my time.

I am as frustrated with left-wing attacks on right wing as I am the right wing towards the left, as I've ALWAYS been. I've gone after Niki, I've gone after Wulf, I've gone after Sig, Kane, 1kiki, AuRaptor, Kwicko, DT, and Frem, whenever I think someone has gone a little too far. I'm still anarchist, but I still try to be neutral and not support one side or another. I defended some people a long time ago, let the bias and my own political inclinations influence me instead of seeing the whole picture or the weight of all the insults. But I've avoided taking sides recently, even had some falling out with some of the other anarchists.

We can't help other people. But we can help ourselves. And that'll help the situation.

I'm pleased to see this exchange. This is what I mean by seeing humanity in each other. You're both good people, you just disagree on some things.

I know it's hard to police your "own", and you really can't anyhow. I never have, so you're ahead of me on that account. It's like the old adage, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, "could be worse, could be me". Show me a saint, and I'll show you someone who ain't in RWED.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"We were all friends once."

I think that's unrealistically sanguine. Some posters were friends with other posters. It wasn't true that everyone was friends with everyone else.

"It's like the problems we have every election cycle never stopped. Things never really settled back down to normal."

The world is a meaner place. The US used to be at the top of the economic heap - sure the system caused deep poverty but most of that poverty was out THERE, somewhere. Now it's here. The working class is now the non-working class. The middle class is slipping into to the one-paycheck-away-from-homelessness class. The propaganda pressure is high, the policies are to simultaneously bleed people and distract them (hey! let's have another war!). There is far less real fairness and opportunity, and far more to be contentious about. It's easier to be nice when you see fewer problems, far harder to be nice when you see the vast majority of the country getting screwed by the few people with the means to do it.

"The insults may not be as bad. But this is still something else altogether. This is a new level of dislike and vitriol."

This is what did it for me - I was away for quite a while - months and months. It stopped the conversations in my head, so that when I came back it was with a completely fresh perspective. And what I saw was that the conversations hadn't changed since this place came online. People were harping on the same things they harped on YEARS ago. Iraq DID have WMDs! I saw that no amount of reason, facts, understanding and discussion by many people over all that time had the power to change that. Not among the unreasoning and unreasonable - and those tended to be true believers of all types, but mostly what I see here are true believers of the right-wing type.
So, since discussion with them in fruitless, what then is the point of discussing? There is none. At all.

"I've seen Chrisisall go after AuRaptor."

And you haven’t seen it go the other way? What is it that little rappy has at the end of every post? A taunt to make Chris,IsAll regret he ever said anything nice. Gad, what a big blind spot you have.

"What if it's being confronted with opposing viewpoints that a person disagrees with so strongly every single day that's bringing out this kind of hostile behaviour between people here? What if just seeing it is starting to provoke people?"

What's wrong with opposing viewpoints if they're backed up with facts and logic? I'd personally WELCOME that from the righties here but I have yet to find literally one single post with both. It gets tiresome pointing out two or three or five times where the point was addressed in the article ... where their 'facts' are merely partisan opinions ... where what they take to be scientific discussion is partisan screed. And even if someone posts a lot, if they are willing to participate in discussion on those topics, it's a hell of a lot more honest than infantile spamming that clearly ISN'T meant as discussion. If you've been reading the board you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 3:15 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Interesting discussion. Glad to see you started it, Byte. There's a lot I could say, but I just got back from driving hub to the airport and I'm rummy, so I'll just say what I thought about as I curled up in the passenger's seat and he drove us there (I wasn't awake enough to drive; he wants me up at that hour, HE can drive!).

And that is; I'll try again. Everything said about wishing for coherent, civil discussions, I agree with. So I'll give it another go, and rather than hope I can sustain it, see how long it takes THIS TIME before I start responding in kind. I'm allowed to hope it won't happen, but I'm not stupid.

Something else occurred to me too. WHY I started posting articles. A long time ago, I used to complain about PN and spamming of the forum with bullshit. Someone said "Then why don't you put up some of your own threads on subjects you want to discuss?" I noted it at the time and said I thought that was a good idea; that rather than complain, I should take the initiative and put up threads on Real World Developments myself. That's when I started and why I started, and nothing's changed since then.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 3:40 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
This is what did it for me - I was away for quite a while - months and months. It stopped the conversations in my head, so that when I came back it was with a completely fresh perspective. And what I saw was that the conversations hadn't changed since this place came online. People were harping on the same things they harped on YEARS ago. Iraq DID have WMDs! I saw that no amount of reason, facts, understanding and discussion had the power to change that. Not among the unreasoning and unreasonable - and those tended to be true believers of all types, but mostly what I see here are true believers of the right-wing type.
So, since discussion with them in fruitless, what then is the point of discussing? There is none. At all.

Hey 1k,

I find your assessment of the world chillingly bang on, but this part here seems really off because isn't it just AURaptor that has this problem? I'm not aware that anyone else has been pushing that agenda, and even if there have been times when folk sided with AU on this, I'm certain that if he weren't championing this view, no one would.

I think this is a big part of the trouble on the board actually. AURaptor says something absurd/reprehensible and it becomes "the right says..." Or Kwicko says something and it becomes "the left always says..." And of course, folk like to entirely import stuff from off-board and say "the left always blah-blah-blah..." Once that sense of persecution has settled in it's a hard one for folks to let go of or even to examine.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 4:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree with Cav; I have never noticed anyone else here try to claim that there were WMDs, and there are numerous other things I see him fanatically cling to which I have not seen agreed with by anyone. I think Rap is a special case in that regard, and I think the frequency of his posting here and the things and the way he posts makes it a bit harder for some of us to remember that he doe NOT speak for the majority of those on the right. JMHO.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 4:49 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

eta : Just saw this gem from your pal NOBC in a thread that I posted and Auraptor responded to.....

"OMG, it's Rap/Jong circle jerk. Get a room already."

Nothing to add, nothing to say, just a juvenile idiot's spew. And I've seen that particular expression increasingly used by many of your pals recently. And some of your pals like Niki talk about wanting conversations? Why don't you try starting with that.

I'm gonna have screwed the attribution of those 2 quoted parts up there. I apologize in advance.

Quote:

In truth, I don't know NOBC that much. I haven't seen them post much on the RWED but recently. I know they've written some fanfic, but a lot of it was kind of before my time.

Assuming that "them" and "they" were sort of mental typos, and that you were talking about me, I will defend myself some. I've been here since 2006. The first post I ever made on this board was in RWED. RWED is the forum I come to on this board. I stop here 3 or 4 times a day. I can afford the time to do that because I'm NOW retired. I wrote some fan-fic back then, until Joss killed off my inspiration. I've posted some bad fan art.

Politically, I'm an early 60's liberal. I'm an old guy, old enough to STILL have some of that liberal idealism. I believe in stuff like equal rights, and that government CAN help in certain situations. I believe in progressive taxation, and I think that the rich are under-taxed. I don't buy Stockmanism, or Bush style voodoo economics, I'm a Keynesian at heart.

I also harbor not-a-few really individualistic opinions that might be called conservative, or at least right-wing. I believe in limited, responsible gun rights. I believe in the death penalty, applied on a case by case basis. I believe, to a degree, in American military intervention. We shoulda gone after Iraq in 1992-- Bush 41 was right about that, but didn't finish the job. We shoulda gone after whoever was behind 9/11. That was ( E-T-A I'll correct that myself. May not have been them did it, but they were sheltering OBL at thetime. See, I care about facts and accuracy. Correct myself when I've made a factual error or wrote something that wasn't exactly what I meant.) certainly Afghanistan, at least the Taliban, but not Iraq. I think we shoulda gone after Saudi Arabia, too. Where did Osama Ben Laden come from? Where did , wasn't it 17 of his 19, guys come from?

But we need to balance military intervention with cost/benefit analysis. Is it worth it to get American soldiers wounded or killed in Syria? NO- all we'll possibly gain for our costs there is a warm feeling of moral correctness, in our own judgement. Won't gain us a lick in the permanent friendship, allies or real co-operation department. Sure won't gain us damn -all economically, and sure won't nobody help us carry the economic burden of combat operation there.

I could go on about my politics, but this post is gettin' really long already..it's one of my rules-- I won't read a post over 1 screen long.

But this- I voted for Clinton twice. I voted for Gore and Kerry. I voted for Obama twice. I'm disappointed in him- I think he's been WAY TOO middle of the road, not radical enough, hasn't pushed HARD ENOUGH for what I believe in. Don't really want to ARGUE HERE about what I BELIEVE politically- I'm writing here about what I beleive, ( OOPS! , believe. See, I'm a grammar,spelling and punctuation Nazi too. Re-read my own posts immediately, usually,: go back and make corrections quickly. Admit when I'm wrong on facts or didn't actually know about something.) what I say about that is TRUE, period. If that makes me some kind of fool or jerk, OK, but it's still what I believe.

Quote:

eta : Just saw this gem from your pal NOBC in a thread that I posted and Auraptor responded to.....

"OMG, it's Rap/Jong circle jerk. Get a room already."

I'm glad he appreciated the humor. I thought that was a pretty good zinger myself. Sorry you find it inappropriate. BTW, I thought the only folks allowed to use inappropriateness as a condemnation were mushy squooshy liberal pinko softies. I Thought that real good American conservatives and independent libertarian anarchists believed in right and wrong, not appropriate.
By way of explanation, that was the second thread in 2 days that Rap or Jong started that ONLY the other one had applied to. "Obama bad!" "You right! Obama BAD!!" "You Awesome. You Think Obama bad." "You awesome too, 'cuz you agree Obama BAD!" that's how they went, on and on. Nobody else bothered to post or comment in those thread 'cuz they were so Stoopid. I thought somebody ought to point that out.

And besides, maybe my temper got the best of me a little. I'm WAY Tired of Rap posting stuff that ain't factually true, and then stubbornly arguing that oh yes it is. I'm getting tired of Jong posting stuff from suspect, biased sources and then claiming that it isn't.

Please note: I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to post that stuff, in whatever quantity, but I'm allowed to get pissed off about the content of what they post, and respond.
There's more, but this is already much too long.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 4:51 AM

Quote:
And you haven’t seen it go the other way? What is it that little rappy has at the end of every post? A taunt to make Chris,IsAll regret he ever said anything nice. Gad, what a big blind spot you have.

Not a blind spot - I focused on chrisisall because chrisisall is a laid back guy. Whereas AURaptor is usually snapping back about something or other, trading insults with people.

If Chris gets pissed off it seems like something is up.

Please stop with the "but you too" accusations. Whether I'm a total bitch (and I am!) has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the points I'm making.

Quote:
What's wrong with opposing viewpoints if they're backed up with facts and logic?

Nothing, except coming back at those opposing viewpoints with "ARAGHAA you people are such *blank*!" isn't exactly opposing viewpoints with facts and logic no matter how much you all think that is an accurate assessment.

It is very hostile here. 2 months away from the board didn't make me see "oh it's the same as always," it made the squabbling OVERWHELMING when I looked again.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 5:07 AM

NOBC: I am sorry that you felt like I was attacking you. I wasn't, not anymore that I'm attacking Jong over what he did.

I'm just kinda frustrated that there's all this vitriol and that it doesn't help the situation.

Quote:
I Thought that real good American conservatives and independent libertarian anarchists believed in right and wrong, not appropriate.

...I'm not really sure why you lumped anarchists in with conservatives or libertarians. Libertarians and anarchists are only the same thing in Europe, and neither are conservative. In American, libertarians are conservative. Anarchists are not.

Where are you posting from, NOBC?

As to the question, I'm an anarchist because I'm 1) opposed to corporatocracy and 2) opposed to social hierarchies and power structures - which therefore extends itself to being against having a "aristocracy" or "leadership elite" class.

I am unsure where "right" or "wrong" enter into this. It's a political ideology, not an ethical dilemma.

As to "appropriateness," the only way a society with no appointed leadership can exist is if all members practice personal responsibility as well as compassion towards other members of their society. If someone says something trying to get a rise out of someone else then that is not consistent with either value.

We're an unmoderated board. How exactly can we have conversations that don't end in flames if people feel no responsibility to each other?

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Friday, May 17, 2013 5:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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By way of explanation, that was the second thread in 2 days that Rap or Jong started that ONLY the other one had applied to. "Obama bad!" "You right! Obama BAD!!" "You Awesome. You Think Obama bad." "You awesome too, 'cuz you agree Obama BAD!" that's how they went, on and on. Nobody else bothered to post or comment in those thread 'cuz they were so Stoopid. I thought somebody ought to point that out.

If I were Rap, I'd say something like "crassic" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...). I love it. I see those threads and don't even bother. I mean, why interrupt the guys when they're having SO much fun? But my reaction is precisely the same.

And it might be asked, exactly HOW many times have I had "get a room" aimed at me, time and time again? I don't get how that's so offensive coming from NewOld, as opposed to the many times it's hurled from the right...am I missing something?

Yes, it's been disheartening to see Chris become angry, that's unusual enough that it's saddened me, too, and I've mentioned it. But I must say Byte, I, too, see, maybe not so much a blind spot as a "leaning"; you are quick to castigate some, but not others. The fact that "AURaptor is usually snapping back about something or other, trading insults with people" shouldn't EXCLUDE him from being castigated, while NewOld (who's nowhere near as bad) snarking is pointed out. What you don't seem to get is that it's those like Rap and Wulf, who are invariably, consistently mean, who TRIGGER those of us who are more willing to meet people half way. If we didn't get a steady, unending stream of vitriol aimed at us whenever we post ANYTHING, it would be a lot easier to maintain civility. Certainly I'll cite Mark and Mike on the other side, and many will probably cite me, but if you can't see the difference between me mocking Wulf and Wulf steadily, incessantly deliberately aiming hate-filled rhetoric about how I should DIE at me, there can be no conversation. If you can't see the difference between just about anything and everything I write to/about anyone and what Six writes to and about me, you don't understand the problem.

You wanna make a dent? Appeal to them--which I guarantee you never will--and see what happens. Don't go after the few who make the most sincere effort to be civil, then snap now and then, like NewOld and Chris. Read your own posts; your bias is pretty easy to see.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 5:24 AM

I've recognized that AuRaptor and Wulf are often insulting. When Jong flooded the board I yelled at him to stop when no one else would because you all know that one side would come back with "ahaha you hate free speech!"

Which, BTW, I'm grateful that no one has done so here yet to me. Though I anticipate that argument any time now.

I don't see that as a bias if I focus on the things that are unusual instead of the constant background noise. I have yelled at Wulf for the "I hope you die" stuff, but I can't be everywhere or see everything he posts, and that IS a great bulk of what he posts. And I'm equally bothered by the "remove yourself from the gene pool" stuff I see aimed at Wulf.

You might have a point though in that I SHOULD be going after AURaptor and Wulf more even though it's unbelievably futile because... The rest of you all think my posting all this stuff is unbelievably futile as well.

I suppose I can blame cowardice in that case. I haven't wanted to be at the front of an AuRaptor flamethrower. And Wulf has more issues from his childhood than I can even put into words. Rather like with Kane, I tended to be nice to Kane because I didn't want to set them off. But I can't avoid it now.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 5:40 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I think you're coming at this from a very subjective perspective, and that may be part of the problem. Right off the bat: I think NewOld was teasing/joking/snarking/whatever, I don't think he was "lumping" groups together. That's how I read it.

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the only way a society with no appointed leadership can exist is if all members practice personal responsibility as well as compassion towards other members of their society.

Which is why "anarchistic" and "society" don't go together. Societies with no appointed leader DO NOT SURVIVE, simple as that, because not all humans will take responsibility. They never will, in the real world where they can physically touch each other. That's reality.

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We're an unmoderated board. How exactly can we have conversations that don't end in flames if people feel no responsibility to each other?

The only way is that we're all anonymous, we come when we feel like it, leave when we feel like it, get whatever we need from being here or leave when we don't like it. THAT'S NOT A SOCIETY. A society is where everyone is in one way or another dependent on others; we're not dependent on one another for anything. This place isn't any form of "society", it's all individual voices expressing themselves. Nothing more.

As to the larger issue, and how it's affecting you:

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We just saw a retaliation against -whatever- that actually began to impede the ability of people to navigate the board and comment and hold conversations with each other, and that is far from the worst possible attack someone could do here. That someone feels the need to do something like this indicates that things have gotten a bit wild here.

That's what YOU saw. First off, according to Jong it WASN'T a "retaliation" (still waiting, still curious to find out what it WAS). So your perception was wrong there. Second, DID it actually "impede the ability of people to navigate the board and hold conversations"? It obviously pissed Sig off and affected you greatly, but it appears to me that conversations kept going on, and I had little if any problem navigating or conversing. So that's your subjective perception, and definitely not true for everyone.

Then there's this one, which I forgot to address:

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I've been moping around for like two months because of something Niki said to me.

That blows my mind. Why would anything I could possibly write here cause you to "mope", much less for TWO MONTHS?!?! I'm afraid I'd be hard pressed to remember what anyone even wrote to/about me two months ago, with a couple of exceptions, certainly, but I've never written anything to you even close to the things I would remember (would be interested to know what, just out of curiosity, because I certainly never intended such consternation!).

Ergo, your perception of things was, in the above order, a) wrong, b) wrong for at least one other person here (we'll have to get a show of hands about the "impede the ability to navigate, etc." part) and apparently sensitive enough to be severely affected by a chance remark. I therefore posit that you are being affected by all this to perhaps a rather subjective degree, and possibly the situation isn't as dire as you seem to perceive. Perhaps the answer would be more for you to take a break or something, maybe mess around in another more pleasant FFF forum until you get your bearings. This place will get better or worse, it's up to the INDIVIDUALS, and I sincerely doubt you will be able to change any of those, no matter what you do.

Just my take on it.

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Friday, May 17, 2013 5:56 AM