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Politically, I'm an early 60's liberal. I'm an old guy, old enough to STILL have some of that liberal idealism. I believe in stuff like equal rights, and that government CAN help in certain situations. I believe in progressive taxation, and I think that the rich are under-taxed. I don't buy Stockmanism, or Bush style voodoo economics, I'm a Keynesian at heart.

I also harbor not-a-few really individualistic opinions that might be called conservative, or at least right-wing. I believe in limited, responsible gun rights. I believe in the death penalty, applied on a case by case basis. I believe, to a degree, in American military intervention. We shoulda gone after Iraq in 1992-- Bush 41 was right about that, but didn't finish the job. We shoulda gone after whoever was behind 9/11. That was ( E-T-A I'll correct that myself. May not have been them did it, but they were sheltering OBL at thetime. See, I care about facts and accuracy. Correct myself when I've made a factual error or wrote something that wasn't exactly what I meant.) certainly Afghanistan, at least the Taliban, but not Iraq. I think we shoulda gone after Saudi Arabia, too. Where did Osama Ben Laden come from? Where did , wasn't it 17 of his 19, guys come from?

But we need to balance military intervention with cost/benefit analysis. Is it worth it to get American soldiers wounded or killed in Syria? NO- all we'll possibly gain for our costs there is a warm feeling of moral correctness, in our own judgement. Won't gain us a lick in the permanent friendship, allies or real co-operation department. Sure won't gain us damn -all economically, and sure won't nobody help us carry the economic burden of combat operation there.

I could go on about my politics, but this post is gettin' really long already..it's one of my rules-- I won't read a post over 1 screen long.

But this- I voted for Clinton twice. I voted for Gore and Kerry. I voted for Obama twice. I'm disappointed in him- I think he's been WAY TOO middle of the road, not radical enough, hasn't pushed HARD ENOUGH for what I believe in. Don't really want to ARGUE HERE about what I BELIEVE politically- I'm writing here about what I beleive, ( OOPS! , believe. See, I'm a grammar,spelling and punctuation Nazi too. Re-read my own posts immediately, usually,: go back and make corrections quickly. Admit when I'm wrong on facts or didn't actually know about something.) what I say about that is TRUE, period. If that makes me some kind of fool or jerk, OK, but it's still what I believe.

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'll add a couple of suggestions, folks. This is a thread to explain what we, as individuals, believe. Not a thread to attack what somebody else posts here. "You're NOT REALLY DUMB ENOUGH to believe THAT!" has no place here.
I don't even think that "You say you believe that, but your post on the subject of ______, proves that you're lying your a__ off," should be used.

Post what you think is true about yourself, and believe that the other guy is doing the same about himself.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.

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You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

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Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves?

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.

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You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I guess I'll have to start on 'what are beliefs' as I understand them.

Beliefs are to me one of three things: 1) things you act on AS IF they were true despite the fact that you have no evidence for them (and for which you may logically NEVER have evidence), 2) things you cling to as true despite evidence they are false, and 3) things you claim to believe despite a repeated failure to act on them as if they were true.

In the first category, I don't have a good handle on most of my 'a priori' assumptions. I know I act AS IF this world is real and I am real in it. I act AS IF my senses are telling me something meaningful. I act AS IF I have some ability to predict the consequences of actions through a combination of experience, teaching, and thought.

In the second category psychologically, I act AS IF my emotions are meaningful interpretations. Mentally I act AS IF my choices are my own and not dictated by the circuitry of my brain or the delicate neuro-chemical/ hormonal internal dance that exists within me. I do have evidence that neither of these beliefs is true.

I also tend to believe that the lens that I view the world through - the lens concerned with humans - is of primary importance, despite evidence to the contrary. But heaven (the vast forces around us) and earth (our formed home) are not humane - and it's ultimately the implacable heaven and earth that will deliver the consequences of what we do to us, as well as the result of their own processes, and against which human appeal is powerless.

In the third category I don't think I espouse too many things I fail to act on, or act on things I fail to espouse. You won't find me espousing tolerance and understanding for all for example - I think some people are crap and don't mind either saying so or acting on it.

I believe that the well being of all people comes first. To that end the well being of the planet is primary to the well being of people. I believe that any ideology which cannot concretely demonstrate to me how it gets to that end that it claims to hold is a delusion (religion). That puts social Darwinism, capitalism, financialism and other 'isms' in the landfill. I believe that the time to act is when the thing needs to be done, 'at your convenience' is too late and not worth doing at all.

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


Hon, I would chastise you, gently. I did ask that we not argue with what a person claims he believes. Now I'm not God, nor the Webmaster here, nor did I start this thread, and I got no real power to enforce what I asked; and you're a free citizen, allowed to do what you choose; but I've already read what he responded to you with, and I don't want to have to say, "I agree with Rap on this one." If he can't, or won't, define his beliefs in more detail, then he can't. Accept what he posted, please, even if you consider it inadequate, and let it pass. Or he'll respond, and you'll respond, and other folks will jump in, heatedly, and this thread will go the way of every other around here.

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I was kind of hoping for a conversation here on this thread. So my aim was to find out more, rather than 'jump in', but Rappy is free to choose to respond to my request or not. As is anyone else.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


Hon, I would chastise you, gently. I did ask that we not argue with what a person claims he believes. Now I'm not God, nor the Webmaster here, nor did I start this thread, and I got no real power to enforce what I asked; and you're a free citizen, allowed to do what you choose; but I've already read what he responded to you with, and I don't want to have to say, "I agree with Rap on this one." If he can't, or won't, define his beliefs in more detail, then he can't. Accept what he posted, please, even if you consider it inadequate, and let it pass. Or he'll respond, and you'll respond, and other folks will jump in, heatedly, and this thread will go the way of every other around here.

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I was kind of hoping for a conversation here on this thread. So my aim was to find out more, rather than 'jump in', but Rappy is free to choose to respond to my request or not. As is anyone else.

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Come to look back at it, YOU DID Start this thread. That gives you some ownership. If it's not going where you want, or proceeding how you want, you DO have some right to say so.

I took the start as you asking for a series of monologs, a bunch of " this is what I believe"'s, less than a conversation, more of a " let's get to know each other"'s That was certainly MY intent in that post on the other thread.
And you can see where Rap's response has gone already.

Not arguin' with you, not fightin', not mad. Just sayin', "We had a nice thing starting here, let's not mess it up."

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I'm hopelessly naive. I believe that fundamentally most people try to do good, including most leaders who start out wanting positive change and intending to implement it, and just get caught up playing a survival game in a difficult system and lose sight of the endgame.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

In the second category psychologically, I act AS IF my emotions are meaningful interpretations. Mentally I act AS IF my choices are my own and not dictated by the circuitry of my brain or the delicate neuro-chemical/ hormonal internal dance that exists within me. I do have evidence that neither of these beliefs is true.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Also I'm a fan of Obama, and it's good to see many good causes being advanced on a lot of fronts: universal healthcare, gay rights, multilateralism, Keynesianism, immigration, infastructure, climate change, Gitmo, Middle East peace, etc. (when the aforementioned bad guys don't act to obstruct it, which they invariably do).

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.

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You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I tried but I can't.

Instead, please insert some imagined grumbling and doom and gloom here. It better encapsulates the spirit of my beliefs, with about the same degree of usefulness and importance as if I had actually attempted to write about them.

And everyone was better off, the end.

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Every time I argue economics around here

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What makes you happy? What do you do because you want to?

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C'mon hon, go google up some cute puppies or kitties. You Tube some happy music. Look up some hottie pics of Nathan or Adam or whatever gets you thru the night. Cheer up. This too shall pass.

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I believe we all have ideology, that's pretty much what each of us is outlining here on this thread.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

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Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves? Or does that just apply to me?

" - Chrisisall

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But I'm wondering, what points of rigidity does the left (solely) have?

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

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Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves? Or does that just apply to me?

" - Chrisisall

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No one said follow-up questions were not allowed. You made a very vague statement which clarified nothing, and is at odds with many of the things you have said over the years here. Asking for clarification shouldn't be so vexing.

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