Immigration reform: A step forward in Senate, a leap back in House? by Niki2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes; so do the Republicans, everyone understands the game.

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Friday, May 24, 2013 4:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Let's PLEASE get rid of the liberal notion that the only thing wrong with illegal immigration is lack of papers!

Let's look at this from a different perspective.

If you REALLY wanted to make immigration work for your country, and treat imigrants right, what would you do??

Well, you would screen incoming people for criminal past and contagious diseases.

Then you would TEACH THEM THE FRIGGIN' LANGUAGE! And yanno, that bothers the effin' shit out of me. Everywhere I go- Home Depot (no, I'm not looking to hire illegals), school rooms, the Farmer's Market, even the effing demo person with the little sausages at Stater Bros store (How the frak does she think she is going to sell a product??? I asked her what she was demonstrating, and she just gave me this qizzical look and said EH???) ... lots of people who can't speak English. Seriously? How can you instruct someone to properly install an air conditioner? How can you tell them what the minimum wage is supposed to be?

THEN you would make sure they had all of the papers necessary to work legally, and pay all of their proper taxes. (Oh, and BTW- being non-citizens, you have to figure out what happens to their Social Security taxes. Does it go to them if they retire in their home country? Do they lose it to 'the system?')

THEN you would follow up with them to make sure they understood our laws... why they can't beat their wives or sell their girl-children. Provide them with the right mix of old hometown support and assimilation challenge (There is a huge problem with Ethiopian immigrants, for example.) because immigration is very stressful.

Like I said before: "Letting" people in so they can work at subminimum wage jobs is like occassionally throwing bread to pigeons in the park... VERY cheap charity.

The coup de grace, as far as I'm concerned, is the insistence that "we" stop deporting illegals. Why??? That kind of person is the LAST kind of person I would want here! Every other nation south of our border has immigration laws more stringent that ours. If you're a gringo, for example you can't own Mexican land. So why should we be the exception?

Yanno, my hubby is an immigrant, my dad was an immigrant, and my mom's parents were immigrants. It's not like I have anything against immigrants. But every time ANY nation has had a large flux if cheap imported labor, it has led to mass exploitation, a significant underclass, gangs, and riots. That goes for the mass influx of Poles, Italians, and Irish, as well as the mass involuntary importation of slaves. Even EU nations have problems with immigrants: the Dutch with their Moluccans, the Germans and Turks, the Brits and pretty much anyone from the Mideast.

Let's discuss.

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Friday, May 24, 2013 4:43 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Beautifully said, Sig, I agree. The language thing kinda gets to me, here in CA, and...well, in general you just made good points. But what I'm getting is the Republicans don't really WANT immigration reform, between the cheap labor (so don't go after the employers!) and politics (let's keep hating them "others"), they don't really want to "fix" it, they just want the LEGAL ones here to vote for them. It's all a game; that's what I hate about it. JMHO.

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Friday, May 24, 2013 4:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

If I were to reform the system to my liking, 90% of the peeps here would be deported.

So, in YOUR mind, what would a reasonable immigration program look like?? Because it's easy to say that the Repubs are just stalling immigration reform and want to bottleneck the path to citizenship, but the reality is that people assimilate rather slowly. A nation, a culture, an economy, can only absorb so many people per year.

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Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:15 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Let's just say I disagree. I'm on my way in a few minutes to run the dogs at dawn, and don't want to start a long debate. If you want to get into it, I'll TRY, but I'll say up front I have no answers, all I know is, if you deported 90% of them, our economy, our country, would fall flat on its face, in my opinion, pretty damned fast.

I disagree with your idea that a country can only handle "so many"; a PLANET can only handle so many, we're in trouble there already, and we are becoming more and more a global village every day. Maybe if more cultures were forced to handle more assimilation, we'd all have fewer problems in the long run. In the long run, please note.

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Saturday, May 25, 2013 6:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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if you deported 90% of them, our economy, our country, would fall flat on its face, in my opinion, pretty damned fast.

Absolutely not the case. I know workers... good, skilled workers... who were displaced by people with no training who were willing to do a crappy job with half-assed tools in dangerous situations for very little pay. That's why, every few years, we have some poor sod from Mexico killed in a trench cave-in because he and his buddies were digging a large foundation with shovels in an unreinforced hole. You can find that everywhere: auto repair, truck driving, construction, pumbing, caregivers, manufacturing. What we would lose would be incredibly low-skilled, low-wage labor. I'm sure we could fill the gap.

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I disagree with your idea that a country can only handle "so many"; a PLANET can only handle so many, we're in trouble there already, and we are becoming more and more a global village every day.

What are you trying to say? If a planet "can" only handle "so many", then surely any subunit of that planet... a nation, for example... also has it's limits. Those limits don't go away if you internationalize everything. Maybe I misunderstand, please explain. But so far, what you wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

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Maybe if more cultures were forced to handle more assimilation, we'd all have fewer problems in the long run. In the long run, please note.

What's that got to do with anything? We are being forced to handle more assimilation without any power to actually SOLVE PROBLEMS, either the problems caused by mass migration, or the problems causing mass migration.

Let me give you an example: Let's say there is a nation which, due to it's internal problems has a tremendously high birthrate. This nation just pops out kids faster than the ecology can absorb them, and the kids are sent out to every other nation in the world. Everyone squeezes over a little, everyone shares more, and every year the problem gets worse. Tell me - how has more assimilation helped solve the problem?

In my view, that's not problem-solving, that's enabling.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 9:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay, so here's the deal:

NIKI

I think what you're saying is that, since we created a lot of the problems south of the border (and, we did) that we should shoulder some of the burden, out of a sense of shared guilt or shared responsibility.

Well, I agree and disagree at the same time.

Yes, we are responsible for much of the fustercluck that is South and Central America. We have supported reprehensible, genocidal dictators in Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Brazil, Chile and a host of other places, all in support of our banks, agricultural companies, copper mines, and... I swear... just out of sheer general cussedness. We've thwarted the will of the people many times over. And in fact, we're continuing with our support of the recent coup in Honduras, and continuing our vendetta against Venezuela. (

)

The coupe de grace was NAFTA: it allowed us to export (heavily subsidized, industrialized) grain to the Carribean and elsewhere, and put local Haitian, Mexican- and other- farmers out of business and into the realm of food dependency. That created a LOT of rootless, landless people who overflooded the macquilladoras and didn't stop at the border in their northward search of jobs.

BTW- there is a subtle vengeance in the righteousness of illegal immigrants, to the tune of You owe me/us/ la raza, similar to African-Americans today.

First of all, my entire family's history begins in this country in 1910. What responsibility do I have- if any- for actions that were taken long before my previous generations even resided here?? And even if my family came over with the Mayflower... damn, that was a long time ago! Where does my responsibility begin and end???

As far as I can tell, my responsibility is to right the current wrongs, not to make up for the sweep of history. So here is what I think we should do:

End all interference in politics and military affairs south of the border. That means ending our intrigues against Venezuela and Honduras, and our military involvement in Guatemala. Each nation has its own path- let them find it themselves.

Withdraw from NAFTA, and support- through individual trade agreements- the revitalization of agriculture in each nation.

End the "anchor-baby" amendment. Seen any freed slaves lately?? Yeah me neither. In return, give everyone who has been here 10 years or more residency papers.

Raise the minimum wage to at least $12/ hour and index it to inflation. Eliminate ALL of piecework/ agricultural/ busboy-waitress/management/whatever exceptions. You worked 10 hours? You get $120 dollars. The reason is that employers, if forced to pay a living wage, will look at their illiterate, Spanish-speaking employees and ask themselves What the heck am I paying you $12 an hour for?

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 9:52 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, Sig, you're on a tear today, aren't you?

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I think what you're saying is that, since we created a lot of the problems south of the border (and, we did) that we should shoulder some of the burden, out of a sense of shared guilt or shared responsibility.

Uh, no, not at all. I've never believed in "white man's guilt" or whatever you want to call it, and I don't feel we should shoulder any "burden" because we screwed up. My government screwed/screws up all over the globe; I don't feel personally responsible.

I'm afraid we'll end up agreeing to disagree. In California, I am all too well aware of the fact that there are TONS of jobs "Americans" wouldn't be caught dead doing, period. Yeah, raising the minimum wage would make a difference, but not enough of one.

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I'm sure we could fill the gap

I disagree, I don't think we could.

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If a planet "can" only handle "so many", then surely any subunit of that planet... a nation, for example... also has it's limits. Those limits don't go away if you internationalize everything. Maybe I misunderstand, please explain. But so far, what you wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

I disagree. It's my opinion, from what I saw in my travels, that we'd be better off if we spread those "so many" around more, rather than let thousands of them die every day because they're crowded into inhuman conditions--and of course best of all, if we could stop OVERpopulating, and there it gets tricky, if not impossible. I have no answers; I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.

This is still a gigantic country, and I believe there is lots of "room", economically as well, for lots of people. I believe a large part of that "American exceptionalism", and whatever else has made this country great, is because of what a homogenous mix we are. My mother, her mother and grandmother all immigrated here from France shortly after the turn of the century. I don't feel I have any right to tell anyone else they can't be here, if you want to understand where my attitude comes from, simple as that. I don't think immigration is going to kill this country; yes, the world is over-populated already, my point is we need to POPULATE LESS, not decide which country gets to have less population.

I guess if we're going to debate our different beliefs, I should address yours:

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you would screen incoming people for criminal past and contagious diseases. Then you would TEACH THEM THE FRIGGIN' LANGUAGE

With those I agree 100%.

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what happens to their Social Security taxes. Does it go to them if they retire in their home country? Do they lose it to 'the system?'

Lose it to the system. They worked for it here, they can either stick around and get it, or go home. Just my opinion.

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THEN you would follow up with them to make sure they understood our laws... why they can't beat their wives or sell their girl-children. Provide them with the right mix of old hometown support and assimilation challenge (There is a huge problem with Ethiopian immigrants, for example.) because immigration is very stressful.

I agree, but don't think it's possible. Assimilation is hard partly BECAUSE immigrants don't get support from the existing population. Human nature.

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That kind of person is the LAST kind of person I would want here! Every other nation south of our border has immigration laws more stringent that ours. If you're a gringo, for example you can't own Mexican land. So why should we be the exception?

There we part ways. What "kind of person"? Someone who's desperate enough to take their life in their hands and cross a border illegally? I don't see all immigrants as one "kind" of person, I'm afraid. Certainly I want people who don't obey the laws or aren't willing to pull their own weight to be deported, but that's a complex thing and I would look at it on a person-by-person basis.

As to "why should we be the exception?": Because we are. We're a very young nation which took over an enormous continent from its indigenous people; we made it great and we come from all over the globe; I don't choose to change that.

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End all interference in politics and military affairs south of the border. That means ending our intrigues against Venezuela and Honduras, and our military involvement in Guatemala. Each nation has its own path- let them find it themselves.

Withdraw from NAFTA, and support- through individual trade agreements- the revitalization of agriculture in each nation.

End the "anchor-baby" amendment. In return, give everyone who has been here 10 years or more residency papers.

Raise the minimum wage to at least $12/ hour and index it to inflation. Eliminate ALL of piecework/ agricultural/ busboy-waitress/management/whatever exceptions.

I agree with all of that, as well.

I guess my question would be: How did we survive the "the mass influx of Poles, Italians, and Irish, as well as the mass involuntary importation of slaves" and become such a rich country despite all that? Out here, you didn't mention the mass influx of Asians, too. If we could do it with them, I see no reason we can't do it with anyone. I would go about fixing the "mass exploitation, a significant underclass, gangs, and riots" which already exist in this country, and would go right on existing, if not getting worse, even if not a single more immigrant were added to the mix.

Which is my answer to your question about "more assimilation". My observation has been such that if there is more variety in a society, it's a healthier society. One of the things I love about California is that we've got SUCH a variety of cultures, all living in close proximity pretty damned well. There CERTAINLY are problems, but there's more tolerance than a lot of communities where it's more homogenous. Studies have shown that there's more tolerance and better understanding of other cultures in places like the coasts, where the influx of other cultures is greater than in landlocked societies. I believe in that.

And of course my question to YOU is: WHAT do you do about the existing illegal immigrants? Do you honestly believe they can all be rounded up and sent packing??? If not, then what?

Lastly, your example of a country which keeps "popping out" babies to other countries. I'm afraid I view that as "earth" at this point; we can keep people out of one country and let another country over-populate...do you really think that in the end THAT will work any better? Can you not see the wars, famines, etc., that are coming? Right now we have one "country" (or portions thereof) which are working GLOBALLY to take over everyone's resources for their own profit (i.e., water). I see that as the greater problem.

Like I said, we'll end up agreeing to disagree (at least I hope so, that seems the best alternative), because I just can't accept an "I've got mine, screw you" answer, any way you cut it. We need to solve our PROBLEMS; those problems exist whether we have immigrants or not, it's not the immigrants who are causing the problems. JMHO.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 10:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm on a tear!

I know you have more to do than track my schedule here, but this is my approximately once-a-week time here.

Will get back to you on this though, I think there is much in your answers to think about.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 10:28 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I sincerely hope you do; the opportunity to have an ACTUAL debate seems to have almost completely vanished from this place. Little as that opportunity has ever been, I miss it more now than ever.

And yes, you are on a tear; if my comments in the other thread offended, I hope that, though offended, you'll think about them anyway.

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Uh, no, not at all. I've never believed in "white man's guilt" or whatever you want to call it, and I don't feel we should shoulder any "burden" because we screwed up. My government screwed/screws up all over the globe; I don't feel personally responsible.

Okay. That leaves me unable to understand some of your motivations, but hopefully that will be cleared up with further discussion.

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I'm afraid we'll end up agreeing to disagree. In California, I am all too well aware of the fact that there are TONS of jobs "Americans" wouldn't be caught dead doing, period. Yeah, raising the minimum wage would make a difference, but not enough of one.

Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.

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I disagree. It's my opinion, from what I saw in my travels, that we'd be better off if we spread those "so many" around more, rather than let thousands of them die every day because they're crowded into inhuman conditions--and of course best of all, if we could stop OVERpopulating, and there it gets tricky, if not impossible. I have no answers; I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.

Why not? People should solve their problems where they are, rather than exporting them elsewhere.

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This is still a gigantic country, and I believe there is lots of "room", economically as well, for lots of people.

Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water? I think we have come close to one actual PHYSICAL limit to our population at the current living standard.

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I believe a large part of that "American exceptionalism", and whatever else has made this country great, is because of what a homogenous mix we are. My mother, her mother and grandmother all immigrated here from France shortly after the turn of the century. I don't feel I have any right to tell anyone else they can't be here, if you want to understand where my attitude comes from, simple as that. I don't think immigration is going to kill this country; yes, the world is over-populated already, my point is we need to POPULATE LESS, not decide which country gets to have less population.

How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?

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I guess if we're going to debate our different beliefs, I should address yours:

you would screen incoming people for criminal past and contagious diseases. Then you would TEACH THEM THE FRIGGIN' LANGUAGE
With those I agree 100%.

what happens to their Social Security taxes. Does it go to them if they retire in their home country? Do they lose it to 'the system?'
Lose it to the system. They worked for it here, they can either stick around and get it, or go home. Just my opinion.

THEN you would follow up with them to make sure they understood our laws... why they can't beat their wives or sell their girl-children. Provide them with the right mix of old hometown support and assimilation challenge (There is a huge problem with Ethiopian immigrants, for example.) because immigration is very stressful.
I agree, but don't think it's possible. Assimilation is hard partly BECAUSE immigrants don't get support from the existing population. Human nature.

Let me pop in a disagreement here- People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language. It is very difficult, even WITH support to set all of those aside: native prejudices Chinese think Koreans are sub-human), the role of women, view of justice and the rule of law, attitudes towards bribery and society and competition, etc etc. The climate, the food... everything changes. It's very tough.

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That kind of person is the LAST kind of person I would want here! Every other nation south of our border has immigration laws more stringent that ours. If you're a gringo, for example you can't own Mexican land. So why should we be the exception?
There we part ways. What "kind of person"? Someone who's desperate enough to take their life in their hands and cross a border illegally? I don't see all immigrants as one "kind" of person, I'm afraid. Certainly I want people who don't obey the laws or aren't willing to pull their own weight to be deported, but that's a complex thing and I would look at it on a person-by-person basis.

Not the kind of person who looks for a job elsewhere, the kind of person who crosses a border illegally and then insists that the law should be ignored in their favor.

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As to "why should we be the exception?": Because we are. We're a very young nation which took over an enormous continent from its indigenous people; we made it great and we come from all over the globe; I don't choose to change that.

I don't think we're al that great, if you ask me.

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End all interference in politics and military affairs south of the border. That means ending our intrigues against Venezuela and Honduras, and our military involvement in Guatemala. Each nation has its own path- let them find it themselves.

Withdraw from NAFTA, and support- through individual trade agreements- the revitalization of agriculture in each nation.

End the "anchor-baby" amendment. In return, give everyone who has been here 10 years or more residency papers.

Raise the minimum wage to at least $12/ hour and index it to inflation. Eliminate ALL of piecework/ agricultural/ busboy-waitress/management/whatever exceptions.
I agree with all of that, as well.

I guess my question would be: How did we survive the "the mass influx of Poles, Italians, and Irish, as well as the mass involuntary importation of slaves" and become such a rich country despite all that? Out here, you didn't mention the mass influx of Asians, too. If we could do it with them, I see no reason we can't do it with anyone. I would go about fixing the "mass exploitation, a significant underclass, gangs, and riots" which already exist in this country, and would go right on existing, if not getting worse, even if not a single more immigrant were added to the mix.

We survived the mass influx of people because there really was free land out there (unless you were a Native American, of course.) The process involved mass exploitation, of the kind you currently see in Bangladesh, gangs of competing immigrants fighting it out like cornered rats- which is indeed what they were. All of these got smoothed out with time, but do we REALLY want to go thru that process every time?

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Which is my answer to your question about "more assimilation". My observation has been such that if there is more variety in a society, it's a healthier society. One of the things I love about California is that we've got SUCH a variety of cultures, all living in close proximity pretty damned well. There CERTAINLY are problems,

The "variety" of cultures extends to more than interesting foods and new music. It includes things like the near-universal belief among Spanish-speaking immigrants that police are handled with bribes, that education (in general) is disrespected and that girls aren't worth educating at all, that all laws are meant to be flouted (especially immigration and minimum pay laws), and that watching roosters and dogs fight to the death is fine entertainment. (Now, SOME of this is just rural-dwellers moving into cities, but that in itself is part of the assimilation problem/process. Moving on to other groups, the Chinese have no problems driving out non-Chinese businesses through vandalism and intimidation, and some Hmong still believe in child-bride kidnap. What it is, among these beliefs, that make us strong?

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... but there's more tolerance than a lot of communities where it's more homogenous. Studies have shown that there's more tolerance and better understanding of other cultures in places like the coasts, where the influx of other cultures is greater than in landlocked societies. I believe in that.

Bull puckies. People may tolerate different food and music, but when it touches a fundamental view of right and wrong, tolerance goes out the window. Have you tried speaking out against capitalism and religion? Oh, BTW- it's not the "mix" of people that promotes tolerance, it's urbanization and anonymity.

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And of course my question to YOU is: WHAT do you do about the existing illegal immigrants? Do you honestly believe they can all be rounded up and sent packing??? If not, then what?

As much as I think people should be deported en masse, I realize that can't be done. So in exchange for a ONE TIME pass, I would insist that the 14th amendment be abolished, and that the minimum wage law be changed. I would try for the other issues too, like NAFTA.

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Lastly, your example of a country which keeps "popping out" babies to other countries. I'm afraid I view that as "earth" at this point; we can keep people out of one country and let another country over-populate...do you really think that in the end THAT will work any better?

Yes.

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Can you not see the wars, famines, etc., that are coming?

Of course. Does that mean we should jump in and join them?

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Right now we have one "country" (or portions thereof) which are working GLOBALLY to take over everyone's resources for their own profit (i.e., water). I see that as the greater problem.

I see that as "A" problem, and possibly one of the bigger ones.

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Like I said, we'll end up agreeing to disagree (at least I hope so, that seems the best alternative), because I just can't accept an "I've got mine, screw you" answer, any way you cut it.

If we're not actively involved in suppressing other people and stealing their resources (big "if") then I see no reason to try to solve other people's problems by helping them ineffectively and screwing ourselves up in the process.

Like I said in my tagline, I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. But, looking forward to your input. Always willing to be talked out of a position!

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hooo, boy, I asked for it. This is going to take too long, and I don't see us finding any meeting of the minds, so I'll TRY to be brief and just state my position.

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That leaves me unable to understand some of your motivations, but hopefully that will be cleared up with further discussion.

Why does my not believing in "white man's guilt" make it impossible to understand me? That kinda floors me; are you saying that, unless I believe in it, my stances on issues make no sense...? Are you saying there are no other viable reasons for believing the things I do?

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Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.

I believe that would be far more harmful to the economy than assimilating our existing immigrants and working toward solving the existing problems.

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I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.

You simply rejected that; it's my belief; we disagree--rather strongly, on my part.

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Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water?

That is not because of immigration. It is because of how we HANDLE our water, not because of population. I know this problem all too well, here in California, and it's far more complex than that.

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How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?

Again, I don't think our overpopulation problem is due to immigration.

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People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language.

And, again, we lived through all those influxes you mentioned, and somehow they assimilated.

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Not the kind of person who looks for a job elsewhere, the kind of person who crosses a border illegally and then insists that the law should be ignored in their favor.

I don't think anyone is considering "ignoring" the law; I believe the issue is how to deal with the current reality. Again I ask: Do you really believe there is a way to deport all our illegal aliens?? THAT is the issue, as I see it, dealing with an existing problem.

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All of these got smoothed out with time, but do we REALLY want to go thru that process every time?

I don't think we have to; I think we can learn from our history and do somewhat better every time. These people already live here, it's not like they'd suddenly be arriving. If we dealt with the problems we're already experiencing, I believe we could solve them.

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The "variety" of cultures extends to more than interesting foods and new music.

That entire paragraph contains so MANY generalizations, most of which, from what I've observed/read/learned are held by a minority of the other cultures you mentioned. It's not those BAD aspects of different cultures that makes us strong, it's the good things they bring as well, and the bad things, over time and because they're not acceptable to the society at large, get minimized.

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Have you tried speaking out against capitalism and religion?

Hell yeah. Had some very spirited "debates" about both. Some people agree with me, some people disagree, some feel even stronger than I do, some disagree quite vehemently. But definitely, every one of those debates, I've heard people on every side. Sometimes some of us get together to work for change, some of those people go away angry, but most of us go away just fine.

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it's not the "mix" of people that promotes tolerance, it's urbanization and anonymity

I disagree, and have read many studies and articles which caused me to hold the belief I do. As an example:

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At least three elements have combined to create this society:

• Television - we see people from other parts of the world on TV.

• Travel - we have opportunities to visit other parts of the world.

• Migration - our neighbors often come from other parts of the world. The junior school that my daughters attended had pupils of about thirty different nationalities, representing six major world religions. Our current neighbors are Muslims; our neighbors a few years ago were Hindus.

As a result of these things, we are much better informed about other people than our parents or grandparents were. We know more about what they believe and how they live. http://www.facingthechallenge.org/tolerance.php

I'm not willing to get into that further; we see things differently, I accept that.

As to

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Does that mean we should jump in and join them?

I don't see us rejecting immigration as not jumping in and joining...these things will happen everywhere, and one country saying "stay out" is NOT going to stop that country from being impacted. I think if we find ways to deal with immigration as best we can, and create a decent country, we will be in a better position in the long run, and suffer less than countries who isolate.

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I believe in solving problems, not sharing them

I don't see it the way you do; I believe in solving problems, including the illegal immigrants already in this country, and I don't see that as "sharing" a problem, but dealing with something which already exists. Maybe it's partly that I believe more in people; the immigrants I've known are human beings with as many good and bad qualities as anyone else, and I see them learn to get along in society and become "Americans", for the most part.

You never answered my question: How do you imagine us being able to deport all the illegal immigrants now living in America; do you have any actual, viable answer to that? It's easy to say "no more", but that's a different debate as I see it. What VIABLE method would you suggest for dealing with those who are living here right now?

I actually don't think this can be a debate. It seems to me your entire premise is that we've got our own problems, we don't need theirs, but that doesn't address the millions who are living here now, nor does it take into account that "they" can help us deal with our problems. And I see your views as pretty concretely negative, as only seeing the bad, with no give at all. I don't know how to debate that, except by a long discussion involving lots of cites and studies and quotes, and I'm not willing to put the time into that, when what I see is appears to be a very cemented attitude. All I can say is, in my opinion, we've done it before and it enriched us; we're still a very, very rich, young, BIG country, and I think the influx of other cultures is part of what made us as rich as we are.

And yes, I do still think America is pretty damned exceptional. Rather than the wholesale rejection of other cultures, we have tried, and learned, how to assimilate them, and they have improved us. Maybe that time has passed, I can't say, I only go by what I see around me. What I see is more Hispanics and more African Americans living in California/Marin than ever before, and California/Marin getting better for it. With problems, with difficulties, but still moving forward.

And I suppose most of all, I do not see any viable way of deporting the millions who live here now, I think even if we could magically make them all "gone" it would be disastrous for this country, and I will never feel I have the right to say "I've got mine; screw you". So I'll agree to disagree, and let it go at that. I agree with a lot of the things you've mentioned which I think would IMPROVE assimilation of our existing immigrants; I just don't believe in, nor do I think we could, deport them all.

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Hooo, boy, I asked for it. This is going to take too long, and I don't see us finding any meeting of the minds, so I'll TRY to be brief and just state my position.... Why does my not believing in "white man's guilt" make it impossible to understand me? That kinda floors me; are you saying that, unless I believe in it, my stances on issues make no sense...?

I'm saying that I can't understand one aside from that. I was kinda hoping it would become clear in this exchange, but it's not coming thru. Maybe if we try a couple more times a I'll get a bigger picture.

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Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.-signy
I believe that would be far more harmful to the economy than assimilating our existing immigrants and working toward solving the existing problems.-Niki

Umm... why? I don't happen to think that our economy should depend on super-cheap labor, and raising the average wage will only make things better, not worse IMHO.

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simply rejected that; it's my belief; we disagree--rather strongly, on my part.

Didn't quite get what we're disagreeing on. Can you clarify?

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Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water? - signy
That is not because of immigration. It is because of how we HANDLE our water, not because of population. I know this problem all too well, here in California, and it's far more complex than that.

No, there is AN ACTUAL SHORTAGE OF WATER, no matter how carefully we handle it. The Colorado River is 120% allocated, for example. I could supply the facts and figures, but I'm short of time right now.

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How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?- signy
Again, I don't think our overpopulation problem is due to immigration.

We have about 12 million illegal immigrants here in the USA out of 312 million people, who have -on average- larger families. Do you think this would improve if we had open borders?

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People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language.- signy
And, again, we lived through all those influxes you mentioned, and somehow they assimilated.

Except for blacks. And the process is messy. Is there any better way of handling this?

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I don't think anyone is considering "ignoring" the law; I believe the issue is how to deal with the current reality.

Of course illegal immigrants are asking us to ignore the law. After all, THEY did! And they want all the bennies and no punishment as their reward.

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Again I ask: Do you really believe there is a way to deport all our illegal aliens?? THAT is the issue, as I see it, dealing with an existing problem.

Alas, no way to deport everyone.

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I don't think we have to; I think we can learn from our history and do somewhat better every time. These people already live here, it's not like they'd suddenly be arriving. If we dealt with the problems we're already experiencing, I believe we could solve them.

But here's the rub: YES, we could solve the problem IF we were willing to expend huge amounts of money on English language education, screening etc etc. Look, I helped out in my daughter's downtown first-grade class, and in addition to the fact that there were 35 kids in the classroom, 12 of them couldn't speak a lick of English and required a part-time aide to limp them thru some limited syllabus while they floundered in the English-only part. This is a time-and-resource problem that is not improved by allowing unlimited numbers of people across the border.

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The "variety" of cultures extends to more than interesting foods and new music.-signy
That entire paragraph contains so MANY generalizations, most of which, from what I've observed/read/learned are held by a minority of the other cultures you mentioned. It's not those BAD aspects of different cultures that makes us strong, it's the good things they bring as well, and the bad things, over time and because they're not acceptable to the society at large, get minimized.-Niki

Have you tried speaking out against capitalism and religion?-signy
Hell yeah. Had some very spirited "debates" about both. Some people agree with me, some people disagree, some feel even stronger than I do, some disagree quite vehemently. But definitely, every one of those debates, I've heard people on every side. Sometimes some of us get together to work for change, some of those people go away angry, but most of us go away just fine.-niki

Well, I guess you've never been followed by the FBI!

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it's not the "mix" of people that promotes tolerance, it's urbanization and anonymity-signy
I disagree, and have read many studies and articles which caused me to hold the belief I do. As an example:

At least three elements have combined to create this society:

• Television - we see people from other parts of the world on TV.

• Travel - we have opportunities to visit other parts of the world.

• Migration - our neighbors often come from other parts of the world. The junior school that my daughters attended had pupils of about thirty different nationalities, representing six major world religions. Our current neighbors are Muslims; our neighbors a few years ago were Hindus.

As a result of these things, we are much better informed about other people than our parents or grandparents were. We know more about what they believe and how they live.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/tolerance.php

Thanks for the link, I'll look at it.

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I'm not willing to get into that further; we see things differently, I accept that.-Niki.

So do I, but I'd like to have at least a further understanding of how you see things.

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As to Does that mean we should jump in and join them?
I don't see us rejecting immigration as not jumping in and joining...these things will happen everywhere, and one country saying "stay out" is NOT going to stop that country from being impacted.

Of course it will. There are some things we necessarily have to deal with collectively... the oceans, the climate, the air. But ONE thing always stays put, and that's the land. The only way that land use (for example) has cross-border effects is when it affects something that DOES cross the border- air, water, pollution.

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I think if we find ways to deal with immigration as best we can, and create a decent country, we will be in a better position in the long run, and suffer less than countries who isolate.

I believe that if we deal with other nations on an equitable basis... not bombing them into the stone age, not interfering with their politics, not stealing their resources, not binding them into unfair trade agreements, not burdening them with loan-shark loans, and providing help on an open-handed basis, we will help other people solve THEIR problems.

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I believe in solving problems, not sharing them-signy

I don't see it the way you do; I believe in solving problems, including the illegal immigrants already in this country, and I don't see that as "sharing" a problem, but dealing with something which already exists. Maybe it's partly that I believe more in people; the immigrants I've known are human beings with as many good and bad qualities as anyone else, and I see them learn to get along in society and become "Americans", for the most part.

You never answered my question: How do you imagine us being able to deport all the illegal immigrants now living in America; do you have any actual, viable answer to that? It's easy to say "no more", but that's a different debate as I see it. What VIABLE method would you suggest for dealing with those who are living here right now?

I think I already answered that question?

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I actually don't think this can be a debate. It seems to be your entire premise is that we've got our own problems, we don't need theirs, but that doesn't address the millions who are living here now, nor does it take into account that "they" can help us deal with our problems. And I see your views as pretty concretely negative, as only seeing the bad, with no give at all. I don't know how to debate that, except by a long discussion involving lots of cites and studies and quotes, and I'm not willing to put the time into that, when what I see is appears to be a very cemented attitude. All I can say is, in my opinion, we've done it before and it enriched us; we're still a very, very rich, young, BIG country, and I think the influx of other cultures is part of what made us as rich as we are.

And yes, I do still think America is pretty damned exceptional. Rather than the wholesale rejection of other cultures, we have tried, and learned, how to assimilate them, and they have improved us.

No, they have not. I can't name a single thing other than interesting food and cool music that other cultures have "brought" to us that have made a lasting impression on the direction of America. All has been subsumed in the borg.

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Maybe that time has passed, I can't say, I only go by what I see around me. What I see is more Hispanics and more African Americans living in California/Marin than ever before, and California/Marin getting better for it. With problems, with difficulties, but still moving forward.

In what way better? Please be specific, I'm intensely curious.

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And I suppose most of all, I do not see any viable way of deporting the millions who live here now, I think even if we could magically make them all "gone" it would be disastrous for this country, and I will never feel I have the right to say "I've got mine; screw you". So I'll agree to disagree, and let it go at that. I agree with a lot of the things you've mentioned which I think would IMPROVE assimilation of our existing immigrants; I just don't believe in, nor do I think we could, deport them all.

You seem to be stuck on the deportation idea. I think I already addressed that: it's impractical. But before I waved a magic wand and said "VIOLA! You are all now LEGAL!" I would REQUIRE other things be done.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NIKI AND EVERYONE ELSE

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think in very concrete terms, at least initially. That's how I understand things: by being specific, by going thru the details, by trying to figure out both the reason for a specific viewpoint, and it's possible logical and practical outcomes. I'm like a rat running a maze. I have to run it five or twenty or more times while I figure out the angles. It's only later, once I've been through the whole thing many times and know all the blind alleys and connections to OTHER mazes that I can get a mental bird's-eye view. I apply this to my own thinking as well others'. That's why I would like to talk with you, and many other people, about this topic. I realize that I'm at variance with the left... whom I respect greatly... who feel very differently than I do, but I've never been able to engage in a discussion because these people are all far away. Since I respect your opinion as well, I would love to get your feedback.

So if someone were to say... "See, the other way to look at this is because..." or "No, you're wrong because your assumption is based on ...." and point to a specific outcome, a BETTER outcome, than the one I'm suggesting, I would be most grateful to look at it.

There is also one other thing that has influenced my thinking, by the way, and it is the discussion we had on efficiency versus robustness. Efficiency promotes centralization, which makes economies more fragile and less able to withstand shock. The critical factor, I have decided, is massive transportation. The thing that distiguishes controlled cells in a body from an ecology of interdependent beings is a common, trasnported energy source, waste removal system, and communication about division of labor (among the cells).

By way of analogy, we might look at the introduction of foreign species. Sometimes it makes the ecology more robust, by introducing yet another species to fill a niche. But many times, a foreign species takes over, outcompetes many other species in that niche, and reduces biodiversity. In a free-for-all, where distance no longer keeps species separated, we wind up with an ecology of weeds and pests: a very limited number of extremely robust plants and animals. I think there is somehting to be said about human societies as well- the capacity to mass-move energy, resrouces, money, information, and people, will generate a monocultural world.

I realize this is pretty "out there" thinking, but if massive transporation is what drives us into a fragile hive-like existance, maybe transportation in ALL its forms... including mass population movements... it a thing to be avoided, or at least undertaken only consciously.

Or, yanno, given that we the people have absolutely no control over the most basic and important issues governing our economy, this is a completely useless conversation.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 2:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thinking about this while playing tennis ('cause NOTHING was helping my tennis game today anyway!) NIKI- I think waht you're thinking is that people should have the freedom to escape an onerous country and move elsewhere.

That is one kind of freedom, but

1) It cedes the point that people should be have to power to reform their own countries.

2) Since other nations should have the capability to shape their policies and economies to their histories and needs (Bhutan isn't Iceland isn't Germany) it kind of knocks that out of whack. Having seriously looked at moving to other nations... have you SEEN the immigration restrictions that other nations impose???

3) It homogenizes the world. Given enough hmogenization there will be no reason to want to move elsewhere because everyone will be the same!

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:11 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, still talking to myself here, since this seems to be a topic where angels fear to tread... what role does immigration play in my ideal world?

I consider a group of nations, with the organizing force of all nations not under military threat, nor supported by outside forces, but trade and aid occurring between equals. Each nation then theoretically could develop into a tyranny, a representative democracy, a direct democracy, a socialist economy, a capitalist economy, or some other form of government and economy. Each nation will have it's own "recipe" for success... Bhutan, for example, has outlawed television and is trying to improve its "happiness index", not its GDP, and is reducing its population growth to replacement.

SO let's say the Bhutan is wildly successful.. people are HAPPY there! Everyone wants to move there, especially those in unhappy Bangladesh, which has decided that ITS pathway to success is in being a fundamentalist Islamist sweatshop to the world. How does tiny Bhutan handle the influx of Shangri la -seekers, who neither speak the language nor understand the culture??? Does one consider the influx of population to be a "success"? Or will it threaten Bhutan's recipe?

And if immigration out of miserable Bangladesh threatens to kill the very thing that the immigrants are seeking... and must therefore be restricted, for Bhutan's sake,... what is the answer for Bangladeshis?

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Monday, June 3, 2013 5:24 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hi, Sig, I hadn't forgotten you, I actually read your entire post before getting the dogs out and thought "It'll take time, but I'll deal with that when I get back". Then the day got really fucked up--I thought I lost one of my dogs out at Bolinas and it was a pretty awful morning (she's home and okay), and my bipolarity kicked in; I was kind of in shock the entire rest of the day, then discovered I was still wired and couldn't get to sleep last night. I managed to get here a bit after we got home, but couldn't continue, much less engage in a meaningful discussion.

But beyond that, I think this is such a complex issue, we could go on forever, and to state my case on each aspect of it would take ages of citing facts, figures, etc. I'm not willing to put in the effort, given what I read from you seems to indicate to me that we're too far apart. Especially since you still have yet to answer my main question: HOW do you figure going about deporting all our existing illegal immigrants? That is kind of central to the issue; we're not discussing future immigration, or at least I'm not, I certainly believe in some limitations but we haven't even discussed that. All you've done is talk about how bad immigration IS, not what we're supposed to do about those here now. You've said "Alas, no way to deport everyone." That doesn't address what you think we CAN do. You said you thought you had answered that question, but I can't find any answer.

You want to understand where I'm coming from? Sig, I'M BUDDHIST! It's who I "am", you don't have to look beyond that one inch for why I believe the way I do. I'm not nationalistic per se, I'm HUMANISTIC, which means people in Bangladesh are worth exactly as much as people in America. That may be where our views differ, I think along the lines of what is best for all humans, not what is best for Americans. That's probably why this debate will never work, if you see what I mean.

But I'll make a BRIEF try:

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raising the average wage will only make things better, not worse

Absolutely, and we need to do so, urgently. But getting rid of all those willing to do menial work and suddenly raising the cost of EVERYTHING would, in my opinion, be catastrophic for a long time to come, and I don't think any country has ever managed to avoid stratification of wages, have they?

What you rejected was

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I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.

By saying

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Why not? People should solve their problems where they are, rather than exporting them elsewhere.

If you believe it's okay to say "I've got mine; you guys go die", then how can we rationally discuss immigration, given that's the absolute antithesis of what I believe?

As to water shortage, of course there is one, globally as well as in America. A large part of that is because of how we USE water, not how many people there are, tho' there is no question whatsoever that overpopulation is already affecting that, and it will only get worse. But we mishandle water so BADLY in this country that if we WERE able to deport all illegal immigrants, it would only delay the problem somewhat (and not all that much, given who the real water hogs ARE), not "fix" it. I'm sure you're aware of all the horrendous ways we misuse water in this country; I believe we have to fix that, not just have fewer people.

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We have about 12 million illegal immigrants here in the USA out of 312 million people, who have -on average- larger families. Do you think this would improve if we had open borders?

I never advocated for open borders, nor do I. I believe in reasonable immigration, and that we need to do a better job of curtailing illegal immigration. Right now, surely you're aware, many businesses (especially in agriculture) are quite HAPPY to have illegal immigrants, and their support in the government makes busting employers who hire them pretty damned difficult. If we fixed just THAT, it would be a beginning toward making it less of an incentive to come here. Right now how we deal--and how we DON'T DEAL--with illegal immigrants is totally screwed up.

You claim "Blacks" haven't assimilated?? That blows my mind. I've known many African Americans AND Hispanic and Filipino immigrants, and they've "assimilated" just great; they're Americans every bit as much as I am...tho' in some cases they've kept their roots better (but then, mine never even tried). How have African Americans not assimilated? Our society has made it a hell of a lot HARDER, and they've still never achieved complete parity, but even the poor African Americans I've known in East Palo Alto, Oakland, S.F., etc., are every bit as American as I am, just poor American.

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they want all the bennies and no punishment as their reward.

Okay, that is so racist and generalized I can't even respond to it. "They" don't want anything of the sort...certainly SOME do, just as SOME white, multi-generational Americans want to live on welfare, but crossing the border illegally doesn't mean all illegal immigrants come here fully intending not to abide by our laws. That's simply a fact.

As to

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YES, we could solve the problem IF...

I disagree. The problem with our school system is huge, being made worse by making teachers the goat and CONTINUING to cut education dollars in so many states. That's a problem we need to fix; if we put the emphasis on fixing the problems in our education system--32 kids to a class isn't because of illegal immigrants, it's happening everywhere, for example--we could focus as well on teaching English, etc. And there we fully agree; I don't think we should make it nearly as easy for people to get along in this country without learning the language, to me that's just plain stupid. Not "English as the only language", but doing away with letting people vote and everything else in a different language. Maybe some assistance tied to a time limit of some sort, it's a complex problem but isn't being dealt with right, in my opinion.

Yes, I've been tracked by the FBI. I also had a "dossier" on me with the local police because of the communal house I lived in. When they came in (and planted a packet of coke in order to facilitate the bust), they SHOWED them to us. But good gawd, Sig, people in America speak negatively about America (and religion) every day, in every city, everywhere. Where do you get the idea that we're somehow all under surveillance?? I don't give the government nearly the credit you do, nor do I believe they have the manpower or INTEREST in hunting people down that you do. As you said, 312 million people; you actually believe they are tracking everyone who speaks up about the problems in this country?

Considering your belief that "one country saying "stay out" IS going to stop that country from being impacted", I find that amazing. It's not about "land", it's about so many more things than that, and how much land one country has doesn't determine how well that country gets along all by itself. Just that debate in itself is so complex, I'm not going there. Suffice it to say I believe we ARE all inter-dependent at this point; we're dependent on the rest of the world economically, for just one thing, and isolationism won't keep us healthy while the rest of the world falls apart, that seems to me a very blind view.

I agree with most of what you said about dealing with other countries, but again, the debate I'M trying to have is what do we do with the illegal immigrants here NOW?

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I can't name a single thing other than interesting food and cool music that other cultures have "brought" to us that have made a lasting impression on the direction of America. All has been subsumed in the borg.

Oh, dear. That's an enormous debate unto itself, and we disagree hugely. Best I can say is please Google "what have immigrants contributed to the United States"...there's "What have Chinese immigrants contributed to American culture?" ( http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_have_Chinese_immigrants_contributed_to_
American_culture), "Immigrants have enriched American culture and enhanced our influence in the world" ( http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/immigrants-have-enriched-a
merican-culture-enhanced-our-influence-world), and there's tons more, easy to find. Immigration has impacted our culture, economy, and everything else about America from Day One.

I don't even "get" your question. Are you saying we never grew or changed in any way from when the ORIGINAL "illegal immigrants" arrived here? America IS immigrants; every influx has changed us in one way or another.

As to California specifically, again, that's a whole complete discussion. I can only opine what I've seen around me here in Marin, personally. In the 35 years I've lived in Marin I've watched it become much more diverse (from an almost-all-white population when we arrived). We have not changed our environmental or development policies, what was once an out-and-out-dangerous SLUM ("The Canal"--we lived there briefly when we first came) is now a thriving, clean, economically viable Hispanic community; what was once a virtually all-African-American "tenement" (Marin City) is now a clean, thriving area which has grown enormously and is now almost completely integrated, and sports a Best Buy and big shopping center. We've been hit like the rest of the country and have suffered, watched businesses which were here since we first came go under, and now see things starting to improve. We have more homeless than ever before--in fact we had virtually NONE when we first came--but the ones we see on the street are by and large Caucasian, and the bedding we used to see indicating (most likely illegal-immigrant) homeless sleeping out in the marsh area has disappeared. We've always had a large contingent of Asian shop owners, but there has never been a specifically "Asian" living area that I know of, but now we have many more Middle Eastern shop owners. A good percentage of the stores on the main drag (we only have one) are owned/run by immigrants of one kind or another.

This was an amazingly homogenous area when we moved here; having come from the South Bay, I was quite surprised by it. There's a tunnel on our side of the Golden Gate Bridge, which has always been painted with a rainbow across the top. Robin Williams lived here, and, "in an early routine, postulated that the rainbow had been installed by the largely wealthy, white Marin population as an ethnicity detector". He was stealing from an long-existing joke about Marin's lack of ethnic makeup; I'd heard the joke long before he made it. We're no longer "largely wealthy" and white, by far. But we're better for it, from my observation. (The rainbow, by the way, became a "hippie" joke, and then a "gay" joke...it was actually painted in rainbows by a Caltrans employee, Robert Hallig, when it was first built, and he had no agenda in mind...some people still call it the "Rainbow Tunnel").

I've already been at this for so long, and it IS so long, that I'll just offer this for some facts and figures on how immigration has improved SOUTHERN California (only because it's the first thing I can find that's pertinent; I avoid So. Ca. if at all possible ;o) ): http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-357825-percent-southern.
html

I see at the end that we're not actually HAVING the same discussion at all. I've been coming from "how do we deal with existing immigrants?" and you've been coming from "I think we should restrict immigration". Apples and oranges, so I'll stop there. Instead, logically we should discuss one or the other, don't you think? Obviously I think immigration is a good thing, but yes, with restrictions; it APPEARS that your view is that there should be no immigration, or at the very least, absolute MINIMUM immigration?

And I'm sorry, but I just can't go on and address your other three posts; I've already spent so much time on this one, it would be pretty crazy.

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Monday, June 3, 2013 5:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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HOW do you figure going about deporting all our existing illegal immigrants?

Buried in all my posts, I said that it wasn't practical.

I'll let that one settle

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:47 AM

I'm proud to live in a nation of immigrants, and include myself as a child of an immigrant, although those people came many generations ago.

The story of the world is the story of immigration, as people migrate constantly throughout history. Our own language is a testament to waves of movement of people who transposed their cultures and their languages upon one another. That's what makes English one of the most durable, flexible and living languages in the world today.

Most people move to make better lives for themselves, usually only when staying is pretty unbearable - otherwise who'd bother (although there are a middle class of migrants these days who live away from their home culture purely for economic reasons).

Of course migrants should have the same health care status as people who were born in a country. Otherwise you get inequity in society.

Languages are easier to learn when you are younger. As you get older, it just gets harder. It's easy to demand that people learn languages of the new country, but sometimes its beyond the capabilities of older migrants to do so. Ever tried to speak another language to locals. It's humiliating as an adult to stumble through words. Kids do it a lot easier.

Migrants will always flock together. Being in an alien culture is hard and unsettling for most people. When I was a migrant in a country with a pretty similar culture, I still sought out my own kind. It's kind of natural.

Places where there has been lots of migration can be dynamic, amazing and/or scary and disfunctional. They are usually a hell of lot more interesting than monocultures in my view. I think most invention, most of the amazing ideas, inventions, philosophy has taken place when cultures merge, but its not always without cost.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:47 AM

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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I'm proud to live in a nation of immigrants, and include myself as a child of an immigrant, although those people came many generations ago.

If anyone can claim to be the child of immgration, I suppose it's me, since hubby, father, and mother's parents are/ were immigrants. So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.

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The story of the world is the story of immigration, as people migrate constantly throughout history. Our own language is a testament to waves of movement of people who transposed their cultures and their languages upon one another. That's what makes English one of the most durable, flexible and living languages in the world today.

The story of the world is a story of mass migrations and occupations- the Mayans into North America, Mongols into Europe, Euopeans into Australia and the Americas, the Jews into Palestine. Unless your group, whatever you consider it to be, moved into absolulety virgin territory, it displaced others who were already there and millions- possibly hundreds of millions- of indigenous/ aboriginal people died, and languages and societies died with them. What perspective are you speaking from?

What is the difference, if any, between these mass population movements, and "immigration" as you envision it? I think there is one, but I want to know what you see.

Let me know.

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It's easy to demand that people learn languages of the new country, but sometimes its beyond the capabilities of older migrants to do so. Ever tried to speak another language to locals. It's humiliating as an adult to stumble through words. Kids do it a lot easier.

Tough. If I were to move to China, whose language is notoriously difficult to learn, I would expect to have to learn it. I might wind up in a English-speaking enclave'ghetto because it was more comfortable, but I wouldn't expect an entire nation to provide helpful English signs, menus, instructions, and interpreters everywhere I go. And I would realize that UNTIL I learned the language, I would be at a signifciant disadvanage, economically and socially in the larger society. Learning the language would be a priority.

In addition, if I were illegal, I would recognise my illegal status. I sure as hell wouldn't expect the host nation to suddenly forget that I transgressed their laws to move in with them.

In the other thread, I mentioned that my dad was bounced from nation to nation involuntarily during WWII. He made an attempt to learn every language where he landed, and it was tough learning Russian in a Siberian labor camp. But he did.

What you and NIKI are both arguing is the the identity of the immigrant. "Child of immigrants", "nation of immigrants". You see yourself as an "immigrant", but you see yourselves from the perspective of perhaps a few generations distant, and from the perspective of the dominant culture.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Magons, everything you said.

Sig,

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So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.

I don't think either of us are. I'm certainly not, nor do I think my individual situation would EVER be a reason to establish the validity of any "argument"/debate; it's immaterial.

When it comes to what you said about indigenous peoples, to me THAT smacks of "white-man's guilt" if anything does. I wasn't here for that; I believe we should make right any inequalities, be they those or inequalities to new immigrants, but I see a vast difference between a primitive native species being overrun by a larger force and America accepting its immigrants. If you come right down to it, what you described is the history of the WORLD; our species started somewhere, maybe a couple of somewhere but we'll never know; every migration since then has been one people taking over when they migrated. That to me isn't a valid argument about immigration in today's world. JMHO.

I do agree about the language tho', despite recognizing what Magons said. Traveling the world, it was admittedly embarrassing that in virtually every country, I saw foreigners trying to stumble along on the native language while the vast majority of Americans acted as if everyone else should learn THEIR language, and few had ever even tried to learn another. I know this is partly because in Europe, countries are smaller and closer together so there's a lot more travel in between, whereas we have this whole huge continent, which we share with Canadians who mostly speak the same language. When I traveled with my husband later in life, I brushed back up on my French (mom was a French immigrant and French was the second language in Afghanistan, so some of my classes were taught in it), and Jim and I even took classes in German before going back to Switzerland twice more. I did the best I could, and if we immigrated to another country, there's no way I would expect to be accommodated and not do my best to learn the language.

I realize it's a problem and there are nuances, especially for older immigrants. But I think we bend over too far backward in America, which may be my own prejudice, in fact I KNOW it is at least partly, but yes, it irritates me (maybe more than it should) when shop people talk to one another in Spanish while I'm being waited on, etc. I think we dissuade immigrants from learning the language by the amount of accommodation we offer.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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but I see a vast difference between a primitive native species being overrun by a larger force and America accepting its immigrants.

Then WHAT is the difference??? Is it a difference in scale? Is it a difference in who survives? Is it a difference in what language, culture, and economy survives?

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:28 AM

BYTEMITE

I don't understand where Obamacare or immigration intersect exactly.

My assumption was that illegal immigrants would continue to have the same access to insurance as they always have, which is to say none, and that they would continue to show up at the ER for free health care, as it violates doctor's ethics to send them away or deport them. Though not, apparently, to dump them out on the street or at a cheaper hospital.

This healthcare for illegal immigrants would thus provide pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industry yet another nonsensical reason to jack up costs. They could say one pill out of a few million that cost them maybe a dollar average each to research and produce should have a fair market value of 1000 bucks, and that a stay in the hospital overnight should bankrupt people.

America has the best healthcare system in the world. 9_9 I'm not sure it's actually immigrants who are the problem here.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 10:57 AM

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If anyone can claim to be the child of immgration, I suppose it's me, since hubby, father, and mother's parents are/ were immigrants. So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.

Geez, I'm not arguing to add validity to my argument. The only validity in my argument (or yours) has is that we are making it. End of story. My point was that we are all immigrants in my country, unless you count yourself descended from the indigenous peoples, and even they migrated far enough back.

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The story of the world is a story of mass migrations and occupations- the Mayans into North America, Mongols into Europe, Euopeans into Australia and the Americas, the Jews into Palestine. Unless your group, whatever you consider it to be, moved into absolulety virgin territory, it displaced others who were already there and millions- possibly hundreds of millions- of indigenous/ aboriginal people died, and languages and societies died with them. What perspective are you speaking from?

What is the difference, if any, between these mass population movements, and "immigration" as you envision it? I think there is one, but I want to know what you see.

Let me know.

whether it happens through violence, or happens peaceable, it happens and it continues to happen and will continue to happen. The more forced the migration, the more likelihood of conflict, but races living side by side or intermingling doesn't always result in conflict. How many people here can claim to be of a single race? Most people I know have a little of this and a little of that and are proud of their mixed origins.

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Tough. If I were to move to China, whose language is notoriously difficult to learn, I would expect to have to learn it. I might wind up in a English-speaking enclave'ghetto because it was more comfortable, but I wouldn't expect an entire nation to provide helpful English signs, menus, instructions, and interpreters everywhere I go. And I would realize that UNTIL I learned the language, I would be at a signifciant disadvanage, economically and socially in the larger society. Learning the language would be a priority.

Just because you have a take no prisoners approach to this doesn't make it the truth. Yes, you should make an attempt at learning the language of the country you live in, but not everyone will have that capacity. Worked with an older Eritrean lady years ago who'd been to class after class, and was just not capable of remembering a few words. This woman was an illiterate goat herder in her culture (or some such thing). No formal education, no capacity.

In my experience, older people struggle, youngsters have the capacity to speak like natives, and can be perfectly bilingual. Good on them, its great to be able to speak more than one language. I don't see the issue in that. I'm glad when language gets passed on from generation to generation. It's important to culture to keep language. The people you mentioned, who could speak English, but spoke Spanish in front of you were just being rude.

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In addition, if I were illegal, I would recognise my illegal status. I sure as hell wouldn't expect the host nation to suddenly forget that I transgressed their laws to move in with them.

I was actually referring to legal immigration. Illegal immigrants are another story, but man, they must be the most miserable bunch of people on the earth, don't you think. No legal status, no access to medical condition, exploited, reviled. I can't imagine anything worse.

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In the other thread, I mentioned that my dad was bounced from nation to nation involuntarily during WWII. He made an attempt to learn every language where he landed, and it was tough learning Russian in a Siberian labor camp. But he did.

Good on him. But not everyone will have that capacity. Not everyone can or should be held up to such standards.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 10:57 AM

double trouble

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Geez, I'm not arguing to add validity to my argument. The only validity in my argument (or yours) has is that we are making it. End of story. My point was that we are all immigrants in my country, unless you count yourself descended from the indigenous peoples, and even they migrated far enough back.

And.....? I guess I'm wondering... why bring it up, then?

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whether it happens through violence, or happens peaceable, it happens and it continues to happen and will continue to happen. The more forced the migration, the more likelihood of conflict, but races living side by side or intermingling doesn't always result in conflict. How many people here can claim to be of a single race? Most people I know have a little of this and a little of that and are proud of their mixed origins.

I'm not talking about "races", but economies, languages, stories, ethics, economies. IMHO, the difference between "immigration" and "colonization" is partly based on numbers, and partly based on technology. I had a very smart friend who once said There are no such things as nations, but language groups. Because people move, land is lost and gained, leaders come and go, but language stays the same Once of the things the British did when colonizing Ireland was attempt to destroy the language. So one thing to look for is which language survives.

In all advanced economies today, it's impossible to live side by side with your neighbors. You can't herd goats next to the cafe - you're either contributing to the larger society, drawing from it or -most likely-both. For example, when you said...

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Of course migrants should have the same health care status as people who were born in a country. Otherwise you get inequity in society.

Hello?? Have you seen the hurdles that nations with universal healthcare set up to keep certain people out? If you're old, sick, a dependent, or disabled, you don't get in. I know, because we looked! But hey, I understand why. If they tried to provide healthcare to people who haven't been contributing their whole lives, and/or don't have a chance of EVER contributing, over time they would be swamped with immigrants just needing health care.

EVERY system today breaks. There is some limit, some flaw, some SOMETHING that can't absorb unlimited numbers of people. Look at the riots in Sweden. The immigrants are legal, and provided with a lot of assistance, but SOMETHING broke.

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One big problem is the lack of jobs. The national unemployment rate is about 8 percent, but the rate is at least twice as high in immigrant areas and four times as high for those under 25. But, said Nima Sanandaji, a Kurdish-Swedish author of several books on immigration who was born in Iran, remote areas in the north of Sweden have more people out of work, “but they are not throwing rocks and burning cars.”

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Just because you have a take no prisoners approach to this doesn't make it the truth. Yes, you should make an attempt at learning the language of the country you live in, but not everyone will have that capacity. Worked with an older Eritrean lady years ago who'd been to class after class, and was just not capable of remembering a few words. This woman was an illiterate goat herder in her culture (or some such thing). No formal education, no capacity.

So, on average, how do goat herders survive in a complex technological culture?

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In my experience, older people struggle, youngsters have the capacity to speak like natives, and can be perfectly bilingual. Good on them, its great to be able to speak more than one language. I don't see the issue in that. I'm glad when language gets passed on from generation to generation. It's important to culture to keep language. The people you mentioned, who could speak English, but spoke Spanish in front of you were just being rude.

Yes, but seems to be part of the attitude.

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I was actually referring to legal immigration. Illegal immigrants are another story, but man, they must be the most miserable bunch of people on the earth, don't you think. No legal status, no access to medical condition, exploited, reviled. I can't imagine anything worse.

Yeah, well...that's part of the larger discussion I was having with myself. What problems do immigration solve? Are there other ways of solving them? What problems does immigration create?

I suggested that if the USA get its hands off south and central America, our immigration problems would, over time, disappear. I still think that's true. But it's not a universal answer to the problems that immigration is trying to solve. When I get a chance, I'm going to think about that some more.

But, this puts me in mind that if I were to give all of our illegals some sort of legal status, I would insist not only on getting rid of the anchor baby amendment, I would make English the national language (except in areas required by treaty to be bilingual).

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:25 PM

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Hello?? Have you seen the hurdles that nations with universal healthcare set up to keep certain people out? If you're old, sick, a dependent, or disabled, you don't get it.I know, because we looked! But hey, I understand why. If they tried to provide healthcare to people who haven't been contributing their whole lives, and/or don't have a chance of EVER contributing, over time they would be swamped with immigres just needing health care.

Haven't got time to respond to all your post, but I just wanted to respond to this bit. There are two types of immigrants basically. One need to meet a whole host of criteria, you basically have to have the skills needed to come. The second are refugees, who may be old or ill. All who are granted status get healthcare.

Of course countries need to have a say over who enters and stays in their land. I have no problem with this, or putting limits on immigration. Personally I think the EU has made a blunder with its open border policy, but that doesn't diminish my stance that immigration can make nations greater rather than disfunction.

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Of course countries need to have a say over who enters and stays in their land.

That was my point all along. So I guess we agree.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I must have missed where health care came into this, Byte, I just want to say "America has the best healthcare system in the world"...uh, no we do not. Not by a long shot. The MOST EXPENSIVE, yes, but not the best.

I'm not sure how Obamacare comes into the immigration question.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:23 AM