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London: A man believed to be a British soldier has been hacked to death in broad daylight on the streets of London in an apparent terrorist attack.

An eyewitness told LBC radio that two men had attacked a young man in Woolwich, south-east London, with a weapon described as a machete or cleaver.

The attack took place about 200 metres from the Royal Artillery Barracks, which houses several military companies. The local MP Nick Raynsford said he believed the dead man was a serving soldier.
Caught on camera: one of the alleged attackers spoke to bystanders.


“They were hacking at this poor guy,” an eyewitness said. “They were chopping him, cutting him. These two guys were crazed. They were just animals.”


The suspects then dragged the body into the middle of the road and waited for the police to arrive, waving knives and a gun.

The man, dressed in a grey hooded jacket and black woolly hat, made a number of political statements to bystanders.
Two men were shot at the scene by police.

"Brutal case": Two men were shot at the scene by police. Photo: Getty Images
In a video obtained by ITV, an alleged attacker with bloodied hands and carrying a knife said :"We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

‘‘We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.

“I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same.
British police shot and wounded two men after a man thought to be a serving soldier was killed outside a London barracks. Some eyewitness reports suggested the killing was an attempted beheading using machete-like knives.

British police shot and wounded two men after a man thought to be a serving soldier was killed outside a London barracks. Photo: AFP

“You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don’t care about you.”

In another video published by The Sun, the man says “Get rid of (politicians), tell them to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace.”

Police then arrived and opened fire on the two suspects after they tried to attack them, eyewitnesses said.

One eyewitness said the victim of the attack was a man wearing a ‘Help for Heroes’ T-shirt. The attackers had rammed their victim with a blue car before attacking him with a large knife or machete.

The BBC reported that the men had shouted ‘Allahu Akbah’ which means ‘God is great’ during the attack.

British Prime Minister David Cameron said there were strong indications it was a terrorist attack.
Heading back to London: British Prime Minister David Cameron.

Heading back to London: British Prime Minister David Cameron. Photo: AP

“We have had these sort of attacks before in this country and we never buckle in the face of them,” he said.

The government’s emergency response ‘Cobra’ committee has held an emergency meeting.

Mr Cameron cancelled talks with the French president to return to London.

Home Secretary Theresa May said it was a “barbaric case”.

Security has been increased at barracks across London, she said.

‘‘A number of weapons were reportedly being used in the attack and this included reports of a firearm,’’ said police commander Simon Letchford.

Local police officers, then firearms officers, arrived on the scene where they found a man who was later pronounced dead.

‘‘Two men, who we believe from early reports to have been carrying weapons, were shot by police. They were taken to separate London hospitals. They are receiving treatment for their injuries,’’ Letchford said.

A Buckingham Palace spokesman said Queen Elizabeth II, who is due to visit the barracks later this month, is being kept updated.

‘‘The queen is of course concerned by the report of an attack in Woolwich,’’ he said.‘‘Her Majesty is being kept informed.’’

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/terror-in-london-uk-soldier-hacked-to-d
eath-in-street-20130523-2k1s0.html#ixzz2U3iMXDKI

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The man, dressed in a grey hooded jacket and black woolly hat, made a number of political statements to bystanders

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A mother of two has described how she put her life on the line by trying to persuade terrorists to hand over their weapons.

Ingrid Loyau-Kennett, a cub scout leader, talked with the killers and kept her nerve as one of them told her: "We want to start a war in London tonight."

Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south-east
Mrs Loyau-Kennett was a passenger on a number 53 bus that was travelling past the scene. She jumped off to check the soldier's pulse.

"Being a cub leader I have my first aid," she said. "So when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident. Then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.


'You are going to lose': London's Telegraph says cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett confronted the bloodied attackers.

"And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife.

"He had what looked like butcher's tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said: 'Move off the body.' So I thought: 'OK, I don't know what is going on here.' He was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said: 'What do you want?'

"I asked him if he did it and he said 'yes', and I said 'why?' And he said because he [the victim] has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries.
"Shocking: death: forensic officers attend the scene.

"He said he was a British soldier and I said: 'Really?' And he said: 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan. They have nothing to do there.' "

When Mrs Loyau-Kennett arrived on the scene the pair of killers were roaming John Wilson Street waiting for police to arrive so they could stage a final confrontation with them.

She said: "I started to talk to him and I started to notice more weapons and the guy behind him with more weapons as well. By then, people had s
"So I thought, OK, I should keep him talking to me before he noticed everything around him.

"He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk. He was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to do everything he wanted to do.

"I said: 'Right, now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?' He said: 'I would like to stay and fight.' "

The terrorist in the black hat then went to speak to someone else and Mrs Loyau-Kennett tried to engage with the other man in the light coat. She said: "The other one was much shyer and I went to him and I said: 'Well, what about you? Would you like to give me what you have in your hands?'

"I did not want to say weapons but I thought it was better having them aimed on one person like me rather than everybody there. Children were starting to leave school as well."

Mrs Loyau-Kennett was not the only woman to show extraordinary courage in the Woolwich street.

Others shielded the soldier's body as the killers stood over them.

Joe Tallant, 20, a van loader who lives near the scene, said a friend and her mother went over to help the soldier as he lay dying in the street.

"Her mother was so brave, she didn't care what happened to her," he said. "She knelt by his side and comforted him. She held his hand and put her other hand on his chest. I think she might have been praying." MPs last night praised the "extraordinary bravery" of the women and raised concerns about why it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive at the scene while people's lives were at risk.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/you-are-going-to-lose-mother-tells-atta
ckers-to-drop-weapons-after-london-killing-20130523-2k210.html#ixzz2U6Ay5Dib

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The trauma of the parents (and grandparents) repeats itself on the child.

This kind of thing was referred to in another thread.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

As I'm hearing it, the butcher's parents ( who are Christian ) fled Nigeria so they could raise their son in a civilized society, away from the inhuman violence which so often can be found in Muslim countries.

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Nigeria has more than 250 ethnic groups, with varying languages and customs, creating a country of rich ethnic diversity. The largest ethnic groups are the Fulani/Hausa, Yoruba, Igbo, accounting for 62% of population[citation needed], while the Edo, Ijaw, Kanuri, Ibibio, Ebira, Nupe, Gwari, Itsekiri, Jukun, Urhobo, Igala, Idoma and Tiv comprise 33%; other minorities make up the remaining 5%.[91] The middle belt of Nigeria is known for its diversity of ethnic groups, including the Pyem, Goemai, and Kofyar. The official population count of each of Nigeria's ethnicities has always remained controversial and disputed as members of different ethnic groups believe the census is rigged to give a particular group (usually believed to be northern groups) numerical superiority.[60][92][93]

Nigeria is home to a variety of religions which tend to vary regionally. This situation accentuates regional and ethnic distinctions and has often been seen as a source of sectarian conflict amongst the population.[99] Even though, Nigeria is apparently divided equally between Islam and Christianity between north and south, it is evident that across Nigeria there is widespread belief, albeit suppressed for political reasons, in traditional religious practices.

According to a 2011 report, about 50.8% of Nigeria's population are Christians, 47.8% are Muslims and 1.4% adhere to other religions.[100][101] Among Christians, 24.8% are Catholic, 74.1% are Protestant, 0.9% belong to other Christian denominations and a few of them are Orthodox Christians.[100]

From the 1990s to the 2000s, there has been significant growth in Protestant Churches including the Redeemed Christian Church of God, Winners' Chapel, Christ Apostolic Church (the first Aladura Movement in Nigeria), Deeper Christian Life Ministry, Evangelical Church of West Africa, the Presbyterian Church of Nigeria, the Mountain of Fire and Miracles, Christ Embassy, The Synagogue Church Of All Nations, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Aladura Church, indigenous Christian churches especially strong in the Yoruba and Igbo areas, and of evangelical churches in general. The Churches have spilled over into adjacent and southern areas of the middle belt. Denominations like the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Nigeria and the Mormons have also flourished.[102][103]

Other leading Protestant churches in the country are Church of Nigeria, of the Anglican communion, Assemblies of God Church, Nigeria, the Nigerian Baptist Convention and The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations. The Yoruba area contains a large Anglican population, while Igboland is predominantly Catholic and the Edo area is predominantly Assemblies of God which was introduced into Nigeria by Augustus Ehurie Wogu and his associates at Old Umuahia.

The core north is largely Muslim, there are large numbers of both Muslims and Christians in the Middle Belt, including the Federal Capital Territory. In the west of the country, especially in the Yorubaland, the population is said to be 60% Christian, 30% Muslim and 10% adherents of other African religions, while the southeastern regions are predominantly Christians with widespread traditional beliefs, Catholics, Anglicans, and Methodists are the majority with few traditional beliefs, while the Niger Delta region is mainly Christian.[104]

The majority of Nigerian Muslims are Sunni, but a significant Shia and Sufi minority exists (see Shia in Nigeria) and a small minority of Ahmadiyya. Some northern states have incorporated Sharia law into their previously secular legal systems, which has brought about some controversy.[105] Kano State has sought to incorporate Sharia law into its constitution.[106]

Across Yorubaland in the west, many people are adherents to Yorubo/Irunmole spirituality with its philosophy of divine destiny that all can become Orisha (ori, spiritual head; sha, is chosen: to be one with Olodumare (oni odu, the God source of all energy; ma re, enlighthens / triumphs).

Nigeria is a Federal Republic modelled after the United States,[37] with executive power exercised by the president and with overtones of the Westminster System model[citation needed] in the composition and management of the upper and lower houses of the bicameral legislature. The president of Nigeria is Goodluck Jonathan, who succeeded Umaru Musa Yar'Adua to the office in 2010. The president presides as both Head of State and head of the national executive and is elected by popular vote to a maximum of two four-year terms.[2]

The president's power is checked by a Senate and a House of Representatives, which are combined in a bicameral body called the National Assembly. The Senate is a 109-seat body with three members from each state and one from the capital region of Abuja; members are elected by popular vote to four-year terms. The House contains 360 seats and the number of seats per state is determined by population.[2]

Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have played a visible role in Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. Kin-selective altruism has made its way into Nigerian politics and has spurned (spurred?) various attempts by tribalists to concentrate Federal power to a particular region of their interests.[38] Nationalism has also led to active secessionist movements such as MASSOB, Nationalist movements such as Oodua Peoples Congress, Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta and a civil war. Nigeria's three largest ethnic groups (Hausa, Igbo and Yoruba) have maintained historical preeminence in Nigerian politics; competition amongst these three groups has fuelled corruption and graft.[39]

Because of the above issues, Nigeria's political parties are pan-national and irreligious in character (though this does not preclude the continuing preeminence of the dominant ethnicities)

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
sorry Rap, you have to read, I just can't find a video to post to explain a complex country like Nigeria.

Just move your fingers across the lines and you'll get through it.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I like how Cameron and the Brits deal with it. Greg Gutfeld summed it up perfectly today.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-five/index.html#http://video.foxnews
.com/v/2405076436001/gutfeld-world-meet-radical-islam/?playlist_id=1040983441001

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
sorry Rap, you have to read, I just can't find a video to post to explain a complex country like Nigeria.

Just move your fingers across the lines and you'll get through it.

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The complexity of Nigeria's social / religious fabric isn't the issue here. They left to get away from it, and lo and behold, upon growing up in London, their son grew up and became converted to the radical side of which religion?

A-Islam
B-Christianity
C-Hindu

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At the time, it seemed like just another ugly scuffle in a long line of clashes between the police and a rag-tag group of Islamist extremists.

For the last three weeks he had been walking up and down the main street shouting and preaching. It was an obvious sign there was a mad man walking around.

The setting was the Old Bailey in 2006, where four men were arrested for fighting with police and photographers as they turned out in support of a fanatic on trial for calling for British soldiers to be killed.

Among those led away in handcuffs that day, still arguing that he was within his rights to urge people to "behead those who insult Islam", was Michael "Mujahid" Adebolajo. Seven years on, Adebolajo, a British-born Muslim convert, is suspected of having answered the call to arms as one of two men who butchered Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich.

The attack on the soldier, following which Adebolajo talked of an "eye for an eye" as his hands dripped with blood, came seemingly from nowhere, but The Daily Telegraph has established that the killer had in fact been well known to the police and MI5 for years. Far from being a so-called "cleanskin", Adebolajo was a known extremist with an open MI5 file who was in plain sight all along. He preached hatred on the streets of Woolwich, where he was a familiar face to many, and turned up at volatile protests all over London.

The violent murder of Drummer Rigby was the culmination of a 12-year period of radicalisation for Adebolajo, a former Christian, which began when he was a teenager and involved several run-ins with the police, including a prison sentence for assault.

Adebolajo, 28, is the son of devout Christian Nigerian immigrants, Anthony and Ibitoye Adebolajo, who settled in Romford, east London, where Michael and his three siblings were born.

Adebolajo went to the local Marshalls Park School and Havering Sixth Form College, where he first became interested in Islam at the age of 16 or 17.

One school friend said: "His parents were extremely strict. They were really devout Christians. They did not let Michael or his brother and sister do anything when they were younger.

"Michael was into his football and was a Spurs supporter. All his friends were white. He was just a normal lad but as he got older he started to go off the rails.

"He was really intelligent and his parents were desperate for him to do well at school but then he got into smoking weed and also started dealing."

It emerged last night that one of his best friends at school was Kirk Redpath, who later joined the Irish Guards where he was a drummer before being killed in Iraq in 2007.

Another classmate said that Adebolajo, known as "Narn", and his younger brother Jeremiah, known as "Jell", "changed quite dramatically" after becoming involved with drugs, "then he started holding knives up to people's throats, getting their phones etcetera. He'd show us the phones he'd stolen."

But "when he was about 17 he just locked himself in this room with this bloke for a few hours and when he came out he was a Muslim convert. He was spouting all sorts of stuff and said he had changed his name".

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the "Tottenham Ayatollah" who was thrown out of Britain when he was the leader of the now banned extremist group Al-Muhajiroun, last night said that he had converted Adebolajo to Islam.

Speaking from Beirut, where he lives in exile, he said: "We used to have a stall on the street in London were we would talk about the meaning of life with passers-by. He stopped to speak with us and we invited him to Islam.

"Because he is a convert I can still remember him. At that time there were a lot of conflicts around the world, and in Iraq and in Afghanistan especially. We talked to him about these and he sympathised with the Muslim people, it seemed. He was in his 20s, a quiet boy who didn't ask many questions. He used to come to our open talks and speeches."

His parents tried to keep him out of trouble by moving away from Romford into a smart detached house in Saxilby, near Lincoln, in the very heart of middle England. His father got a job as an NHS mental health nurse at the Stapleton Road Resource Centre near Doncaster, where he also represents the Royal College of Nursing as its equality officer.

His mother is understood to have had jobs as a teacher and within the NHS. But the move was too late to turn Adebolajo away from radical Islam. He moved back to London, studying at Greenwich University, where he started using the name Mujahid, or fighter for Islam.

Anjem Choudary, who took over the leadership of Al-Muhajiroun, said: "He was interested in Islam, in memorising the Koran. He disappeared about two years ago. I don't know what influences he has been under since then."

Inside the court on the day, Mizanur Rahman was being tried for soliciting murder and inciting racial hatred during a protest against the publication of a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed by a Danish newspaper.

Adebolajo was among a group of 50 Muslims, many wearing scarves over their faces, who were attempting to interfere with the proceedings with a protest.

In 2007 he was filmed by the BBC protesting outside Paddington Green police station following the arrest of another fanatic. He is seen holding a placard which complains of a "Crusade Against Muslims". In 2008, he was charged with assault over a separate incident and spent time in jail.

He also appears to have influenced his sister Christiana, who also converted to Islam and now lives in Chorley, Lancs.

In the past two years he had reportedly enrolled on a business course at Barking College, living in a flat in Romford and spending much of his time preaching hatred on the streets and urging others to fight in Syria and Afghanistan.

In recent weeks he had been a regular presence in Woolwich, preaching outside shops a short walk away from where Drummer Rigby was murdered.

Mayur Patel, 29, a local, said: "For the last three weeks he had been walking up and down the main street shouting and preaching. It was an obvious sign there was a mad man walking around."

A 51-year-old who gave his name as Tom said: "I saw him on his own outside the pound shop last week shouting about jihad. He was aggressive, trying to draw people's attention to him."

Yesterday police searched five addresses in London linked to the suspected killers and the Adebolajo family home in Lincolnshire. A 29-year-old man and a 29-year-old woman were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder, but police did not give details of their relationships to the two suspected killers.

Members of Adebolajo's family were either taken from their homes by police or left of their own accord yesterday. His sister Blessing, 32, was taken away from her home in Romford, which she is thought to have shared with Adebolajo, before a police search team moved in.

The second suspect in the Woolwich murder was known for handing out radical leaflets and a woman believed to be his girlfriend had recently converted to Islam.

Other details known about the man are that he is 22 and that he frequented the area of south-east London where Wednesday's atrocity took place.

The Daily Telegraph, London

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/far-from-a-cleanskin-alleged-killers-12
year-period-of-radicalisation-20130524-2k51i.html#ixzz2UBT12Ykw

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm not disputing that. I'm taking issue with you describing Nigeria as a uncivilised Muslim country.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
[

Muslims are on the rise there, are they not ? Seems like they are, in parts of Africa. And where they're on the rise, there's more violence. Comes hand in hand.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

You're sounding desperate love

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
[

Muslims are on the rise there, are they not ? Seems like they are, in parts of Africa. And where they're on the rise, there's more violence. Comes hand in hand.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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You're sounding desperate love

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Congregation and People of Tradition for Proselytism and Jihad[2] (Arabic: ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? Jama'a Ahl al-sunnah li-da'wa wa al-jihad), better known by its Hausa name Boko Haram (pronounced [bo?kò? hàrâm], "Western education is sinful"),[3] is a jihadist militant organisation based in the northeast of Nigeria[4] and north Cameroon.[5][6][7] It is an Islamist movement which strongly opposes man-made laws and Westernization. Founded by Mohammed Yusuf in 2001,[8] the organisation seeks to establish sharia law in the country.[9][10] The group is also known for attacking Christians and bombing churches.[11][12]

The movement is divided into three factions. In 2011, Boko Haram was responsible for at least 450 killings in Nigeria.[9] It was also reported that they had been responsible for over 620 deaths over the first 6 months of 2012.[13] Since its founding in 2001, the jihadists have been responsible for roughly 10,000 deaths.[14

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TRIPOLI, Lebanon (Reuters) - A Syrian-born Islamist cleric who taught one of the men accused of hacking to death an off-duty British soldier on a London street praised the attack for its "courage" and said Muslims would see it as a strike on a military target.

In an interview in Tripoli, northern Lebanon, where he has lived since being banished from Britain in 2005, Omar Bakri, founder of banned British Islamist group Al Muhajiroun, said he knew suspect Michael Adebolajo from his lectures a decade ago.
"When I saw the footage I recognized the face immediately," Bakri told Reuters. "I used to know him. A quiet man, very shy, asking lots of questions about Islam."
"What surprised me (is) the quiet man, the man who is very shy, decided to carry out an attack against a British soldier in the middle of the day in the middle of a street in the UK. In east London. It's incredible.
"When I saw that, honestly I was very surprised - standing firm, courageous, brave. Not running away. Rather, he said why he carried (it out) and he wanted the whole world to hear it."

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"Onesies and twosies".... like kids playing jacks. Toss the ball in the air, then get your head cut off.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Haven't heard of Boko Haram, then?

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Haven't heard of Boko Haram, then?

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Did you see the wiki information I posted?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:



Strange. People who would NEVER blame the guns for all the gun crimes will leap to blame a religion for any crime or terrorist act.

To borrow one of their favorite arguments...


Tell us all: How many times has a religion jumped down off the shelf and gone out and killed people?

If guns don't kill people... how does Islam kill people?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I never do.


But I can't help but notice your inability to address the issue.


Typical right-wing cowardice.

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Originally posted by Geezer:


If you're talking about the long post about Nigeria above - yes, I saw it. It failed entirely to mention Boko Haram. Strange, considering the're an Islamic Jihadist organization based in Nigeria that's killed around 10,000 folks in the last 10 years or so.

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n an instant the image has been seared on the collective consciousness, in the same way pictures of ash-strewn figures groping their way through the streets of Manhattan had been in the wake of September 11.

This man stands with his hands stained red with blood, a meat cleaver in one fist, a crumpled body lying behind him on the road. It's a scene that might have come out of Rwanda or the Congo. Yet the setting is John Wilson Street, south-east London , with the surreal touch of a red double-decker bus in the background. The man, later identified by acquaintances as Michael Adebolajo, does not flee. Nor does his accomplice, named as Michael Adebowale. The pair, who have just mown down and butchered 25-year-old British soldier Lee Rigby, roam the street, talk to stunned bystanders, bloodstained weapons still in their hands.

This is not just a brutal slaying. It's street theatre of the most macabre kind. The primitivism of the act seems a core part of the message: you don't need to master bomb recipes on the internet to shake a Western city to its core; you get a similar effect by picking up a blade and hacking someone to death in broad daylight.

He approaches a terrified witness and, according to Britain's ITV, tells him that ''it's cool, I just want to talk to you''. He speaks direct to the phone camera: ''The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers … it's an eye for an eye … By Allah, we swear by almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting until you leave us alone.''

The impromptu press conference ensures news of the crime arrives simultaneously with the attacker's political message, a message that goes viral and runs far ahead of the delayed reaction of politicians and the authorities. Welcome to terrorism in the age of reality TV. Forget ''propaganda of the deed''. Your modern terrorist wants to tell all to Big Brother, commentate their own actions, be their own spin doctor.

Dr Ramon Spaaij, of La Trobe University, see is it as a ''performative act, more than just a means to an end, an act which carries a particular meaning - it's saying no one is safe, anyone walking his dog could be butchered''. His immediate response was to think of the 2004 slaying of Dutch film producer Theo van Gogh, shot and then stabbed by his attacker over a film seen as anti-Islam. Two knives were reportedly left in the body, one pinning down a five-page note.

Dr Brooke Rogers, senior lecturer in risk and terror at King's College London, believes the London pair were adopting the sound-bite technique of politicians, while Professor Kevin McDonald, of Victoria University, sees the staged nature of the London slaying as a ''kind of narcissism'' in which the perpetrators ''become aware of themselves as a kind of social reality through the violence they engage in. It's very clear that being filmed and being visible through violence is very important to them.''

Adebolajo's emerging back-story bears some striking parallels with the younger of the Tsarnaev brothers, last month's Boston bombers.

The Briton was born to educated Nigerian immigrants, seemingly well-integrated at school but radicalised in his later teens. Like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, former schoolmates of Adebolajo's are expressing shock that the person they knew and liked could have evolved into someone capable of inflicting a harrowing atrocity on a total stranger.

''It seems odd to say it now, after the events of yesterday, but I remember him as just a lovely, lovely guy,'' the Daily Mail quoted former classmate Stephen Cavalier saying.

British media were quick to trace links between the London pair and hate preacher Anjem Choudary and it seems they had come to the attention of security agencies.

But others also view the slaying as evidence of the rising ''lone wolf'' phenomenon among followers of violent, jihadist-oriented Islamism - a term describing single or small-group actors who operate independently of any over-arching organisation.

International security expert Neil Fergus, who heads the Australian-based consultancy Intelligent Risks, says the success of Western governments in disrupting the more co-ordinated actions of al-Qaeda and its high-profile offshoots have spurred the terrorist network to urge followers to take up DIY terrorism.

''I think it's a deliberate strategy by al-Qaeda through its arm in the Arabian peninsula to promote it … and to encourage people to act like this,'' he says.

''Security and intelligence agencies have had increased concern and awareness about lone actors, principally because of the publications and actions of al-Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula (AQAP). It goes back to bin Laden getting out of Tora Bora and saying now the organisation has to have many heads. Central planning was never a successful long-term tactic for al-Qaeda - there were too many ways that the plans could be and were compromised.''

Spaaij, who last year wrote a book on lone-wolf terrorism and is being funded by the US National Institute of Justice to research the phenomenon, agrees.

''Al-Qaeda has lost a fair bit of its leadership and the rest has been forced to flee or scatter,'' he says. ''So as organised terrorism becomes more and more disrupted, you see more and more of these splinter groups or lone actors appear.''

Yet in some ways it's not new, he adds. ''Back in the 19th century quite a few eastern European anarchists advocated a very similar strategy because anarchists by definition were against any form of hierarchy or organisation.''

Nor is radical Islam the only seed-bed from which this kind of terrorism springs. Anders Breivik, who massacred 69 fellow-Norwegians in 2011, was the classic lone wolf, operating with no outside support.

Experts have dubbed the new breed of DIY actors ''self-starter'' terrorists who often self-radicalise, initially through the internet or on-line message boards.

They don't have to search far. On-line, they can turn to the e-zine Inspire, produced by AQAP, which reportedly helped the Tsarnaev brothers concoct their bombs.

Founding editor Samir Khan urged ''all of the brothers and sisters coming from the West to consider attacking America in its own backyard'' before he was killed in a US drone strike in late 2011.

Then there is the Lone Mujahid Pocketbook, another AQAP manual for the would-be self-starter.

"There's a lot of chatter," says Rogers. "If you start looking at the information that's online they are constantly looking at different approaches, different methods, different ways of shocking the [Western] public.

''We have an information environment that is absolutely flooded with ideas, with suggestions."

She believes the online web of extreme Islamists, with its many different communities and different levels of fanaticism, is in some ways more powerful than al-Qaeda ever was.

"The sheer volume of material that is available is unprecedented. Individuals, if they're interested, can access it and to an extent 'self-radicalise'. It's almost sensory overload."

In 2010, 21 year-old Roshonara Choudhry was jailed for stabbing East Ham MP Stephen Timms with a kitchen knife. She had been a promising student, but while studying in her bedroom was drawn to YouTube videos made by people explaining their reasons for converting to Islam. Ultimately that led to online lectures from another infamous hate preacher Anwar al-Awlaki. "If you go on YouTube there's a lot of his videos there and if you do a search they just come up," she told police interrogators.

In 2008 Parviz Khan, 37 of Birmingham, was sentenced to 14 years' jail for his plot to kidnap and behead a British soldier.

In covert recordings he was heard making plans for the killing - and to film it, to ensure that the terrorism message hit home in Britain. Asghar Bukhari, of Britain's Muslim Public Affairs Committee, told the BBC that radicalisation was increasing as young Muslims were enraged by what they saw over the internet , like graphic images of the collateral victims of drone strikes in Pakistan.

"This hatred is growing within some sections of the Muslim community," he said, blaming Islamic organisations for not doing more to channel this anger into legal forms of protest and activism.

But Rogers believes there have been greater efforts by mosques and Muslim communities to share information and more openly co-operate with the authorities. Paradoxically, this has had the effect of driving fanatics into darker corners where they are harder to detect.

"It's almost a double-edged sword," she said. "[Hate preaching] is happening more in front rooms in private homes, in private meetings, and of course online - where it's much more difficult to spot it, to find it, to track it."

Haras Rafiq, of anti-extremism think-tank Centri, challenges talk of "self-radicalised young people".

"We are still as a community refusing … to really tackle the groups that are underpinning and driving the radicalisation process," he told the BBC. "They may well have acted themselves but the question is are they part of a wider network? Definitely.''

In Australia there is no emergence, to date, of someone as extreme as the hate-preaching Choudary in Britain, under whose influence Adebolajo allegedly fell.

However Sydney's Sheikh Feiz Mohammed has been a controversial leader who at times has sailed close to the wind.

In 2007 police seized DVDs of his so-called ''Death Series'' in which he called on Muslim parents to offer their children to defend Islam. More recently he has softened his rhetoric and is thought to be co-operating with police.

Experts here say there are other messages out of London for local authorities.

''I think the agencies are probably all now bracing for copy-cat attacks,'' says Dr Rajat Ganguly, senior lecturer in security studies at Murdoch University.

''I think the lone-wolf terrorist is probably going to be the most dominant form of terrorism, at least in Western countries. And countries where you have significant numbers of minority populations are the ones probably squarely in the firing line of this.''

He also thinks the ethnic background of the London attackers might prompt terrorist-profilers inside the intelligence agencies to challenge preconceived ideas about which communities threats might emerge from.

''These are not typical examples of a person of Middle Eastern origin that you would normally think of when you think of something like this,'' he says.

The danger of acts like the London slaying is that they prompt calls for revenge, as has occurred already with the right-wing English Defence League, emboldening radicals within every community.

Nine months ago the head of ASIO, David Irvine, made a rare speech in which he warned of the needle-in-a haystack challenge of allaying the threat from freelancers in terrorism.

''That lone wolf, that person who can be recruited, indoctrinated and trained over the internet until the very last moment and that can happen in a very quick amount of time before a bomb goes off or whatever - that is the issue that … keeps both me and my international colleagues awake at night,'' he said.

He'll be hoping that what came to the streets of London does not ultimately make its home here too.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/diy-terror-20130524-2k6r4.html#ixzz2UHM
jwFcz

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Two days after Lee Rigby's horrific killing, the scene was set for a small but significant piece of community rebuilding: a delegation from the Muslim Council of Britain was to add its own tribute to the mass of flowers at the scene of his death. Then, at brisk walk in the pouring rain, arrived the last person some might wish to see at such a time: Nick Griffin.

The BNP leader, flanked by a burly aide and an even burlier bodyguard, insisted he was there purely as a politician – Rigby's family comes from his north-west England European Parliament constituency – and to "pay my personal respects". But no sooner were the cameras rolling than Griffin launched into his well-worn patter about Britain's supposedly radicalised Muslim population and how its was ignored by "the liberal elite, politicians and mass media".

Fortunately, the MCB were delayed, the group's deputy general secretary, Shuja Shafi, laying his own flowers after Griffin had gone. Shafi was at pains to say, he was there purely to mourn "the loss of a bright young man, a father, a husband and a brother".

It was a message reflected in other flowers left at the busy junction by Zahida Ahmad, a Muslim who has lived in Woolwich for 45 years. "Lee Rigby, we are deeply saddened by this tragic loss of an innocent life," read her card. "Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family."

If there is a wider message from the reaction in south-east London and more widely around Britain since Rigby's death it is that Muslim groups are doing all they can to counter the divisive intent of the killers.

Perhaps the biggest single expression of solidarity came at the East London mosque, in Tower Hamlets, as leaders of the Christian, Jewish and Buddhist faiths joined around 6,000 Muslims for Friday prayers.

The group included the Bishop of Stepney, Adrian Newman, and Leon Silver from the East London central synagogue. Speaking before prayers started they said they had come to condemn the Woolwich attacks and show that the various faith communities were standing shoulder to shoulder with their Muslim neighbours.

"Here in Tower Hamlets we do support each other in our different faiths," said Rev Alan Green, chair of the Tower Hamlets interfaith forum. "If there are attempts to demonise parts of our community – particularly the Muslim community – we will stand together. We will not leave our Muslim brothers and sisters to attempt to defend themselves."

Nonetheless, as well as sadness over the events in Woolwich there was fear among Muslim worshippers over what it may mean for them. "My sisters, my daughter – even my wife are now scared to go out because they fear what people may do after this," said Mizan Abdulrof. "Everyone is shocked and distraught about the horrendous act that was carried out. These idiots, these poor idiots, who carried out this barbaric act did so for their own self for nothing else … they have nothing whatever to do with Islam. Our hearts go out to that man and his poor family."

The latest figures for attacks against Muslims showed that these fears are not unfounded. The Tell Mama hotline for recording Islamophobic crimes and incidents recorded 148 incidents since the Woolwich attacks took place, including eight attacks on mosques.

Tell Mama co-ordinator Fiyaz Mughal said the service usually recorded three or four incidents on an average day, but the spike after Wednesday's killing showed no sign of slowing down.

To add to the growing tensions, far right groups such as the English Defence League and BNP are still trying to whip up division between communities.

The EDL, whose balaclava-clad supporters fought battles with the police in Woolwich hours after the killing, is due to hold a demonstration in Newcastle on Saturday and has called another protest outside Downing Street on Monday. Meanwhile the British National party has called a separate demonstration in Woolwich for 1 June.

Nick Lowles from anti-extremism organisation Hope not Hate said: "There are people who are deliberately trying to wind the situation up and incite a violent response against Muslims. We need people to stay calm but also we need the mainstream majority to speak out against extremism. Britain is better than the extremists."

Back at the East London mosque, sheikh Abdul Qayum condemned "without qualification the horrendous crime committed in Woolwich".

"Our thoughts are with the family and friends of the victim. The actions of the perpetrators are totally against the religion of Islam and the example of the prophet Muhammad. Today we reaffirm this and stand with those of all faiths and none to oppose this terrible act."

At the closest major mosque to the attack, the Greenwich Islamic Centre, the mood ahead of Friday prayers were similar, albeit tinged with an air of weary resignation at being forced to defend their faith.

"Islam makes it very clear that if you murder one person you murder all of humanity," said one young mosque-goer, a Birmingham-born Christian convert who gave his name only as Mohammed. "But this is automatically a 'Muslim crime'. When Stuart Hazell killed Tia Sharp, did anyone mention he was brought up a Christian? No."

Mohammed said he felt particularly keenly about current events given that the two suspected killers are themselves converts to Islam: "But they're nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with the mosque. I've never seen either of them here. And yet we're going to have to explain ourselves to journalists all day."

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by Geezer:


If you're talking about the long post about Nigeria above - yes, I saw it. It failed entirely to mention Boko Haram. Strange, considering the're an Islamic Jihadist organization based in Nigeria that's killed around 10,000 folks in the last 10 years or so.

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Please cite where I have disputed sectarian violence exists in Nigeria. I was disputing Rap's claim that

"As I'm hearing it, the butcher's parents ( who are Christian ) fled Nigeria so they could raise their son in a civilized society, away from the inhuman violence which so often can be found in Muslim countries. "

by pointing out that Nigeria is not a Muslim country.

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I know this probably makes your head hurt, because it appears that reducing everything to its most basic level ie Muslim bad - Christian good is easy for you, but it's just lazy thinking.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your position is absurd. Religion was SPECIFICALLY used here as the reason why these sub-humans killed a man in broad day light. Not to rob him. Not to get back at him for ' dissing' their woman. Not for money he owed them ... they did this in the name of their false god.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Depends on where you are in Nigeria. The northern part of the country is heavily Muslim.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So people in Nigeria have killed "10,000 people" in the last ten years.


Meanwhile, Americans murder that many and more every year with guns, to zero outrage or alarm from the right.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


Where was your outrage when George Tiller was murdered for religious reasons?

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Aren't guns SPECIFICALLY used in tens of thousands of murders every year? If this guy had been holding a pink .22 kid's rifle, you'd be falling all over yourself trying to defend him.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Depends on where you are in Nigeria. The northern part of the country is heavily Muslim.

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So fucking what? Where is the proof, as per Raps claim, that they fled the kind of violence he thinks happens ONLY in ao called uncivilised Muslim countries ONLY perpetuated by uncivilised Muslims. The likelihood that they fled the brutality and human rights abuses perpettrated by one of the non Muslim military regimes. Or maybe they just like crappy weather, who knows.

That's the simplistic, lazy, ignorant world view that I argue against, not for the record before someone builds the strawman, that there is no violence that can be attributed to radical Islam.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


Where was your outrage when George Tiller was murdered for religious reasons?

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This is laughable. And pathetic. Not even worth my time to respond.

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Originally posted by Geezer:


Don't put words in my mouth, please.

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Originally posted by Geezer:


No, Mike.

10,000 people were killed by the Boko Haram group in Nigeria in 10 years. Sort'a like if the KKK or the Crips or Aryan Brotherhood had killed 10,000 folks (actually, 20,000, since the U.S. has about twice the population of Nigeria) in the U.S.

The murder rate in Nigeria as of 2004 was 17.7 per 100,000, as compared to 5.9 in the U.S., and the U.S. rate has gone down since then.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-
000-people

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by Geezer:


No, Mike.

10,000 people were killed by the Boko Haram group in Nigeria in 10 years. Sort'a like if the KKK or the Crips or Aryan Brotherhood had killed 10,000 folks (actually, 20,000, since the U.S. has about twice the population of Nigeria) in the U.S.

The murder rate in Nigeria as of 2004 was 17.7 per 100,000, as compared to 5.9 in the U.S., and the U.S. rate has gone down since then.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-
000-people

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i think you'll find that, although there is a rise in Muslim insurgency, there are clashes between religious groups with deaths on both sides, as well as deaths due to military responses.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/africa/2013/05/04/At-least-20-kil
led-in-sectarian-violence-in-Nigeria-aid-worker.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelwa_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jos_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Jos_riots

One of the article notes:

"The clashes have been characterized as "religious violence" by many news sources,[2][3] although others cite ethnic and economic differences as the root of the violence.[1] The Anglican Archbishop of Jos, Benjamin A. Kwashi stated, "What seems to be a recurring decimal is that over time, those who have in the past used violence to settle political issues, economic issues, social matters, intertribal disagreements, or any issue for that matter, now continue to use that same path of violence and cover it up with religion."[4]"


So that was the reason why I posted the wiki article, to try and describe some of the complexity involved in this country.

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