What's the deal with KPO? by HKCavalier

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What's the deal with KPO?

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Friday, June 7, 2013 09:26
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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I guess for me it's much simpler. We only know one another via written words on a forum; given it's the only way we can communicate, what upset me was having someone called a rapist. Whatever he may or may not deserve (which I don't think is up to us to judge anyway), I would have an equal reaction to anyone here giving him a NAME such as "Prick" or giving a female here a name such as "Cunt" and referring to them that way. It's not about rape, genocide, or what Rap deserves, it's about NAMING someone such a thing. Which no doubt lets me out of the "argument", because you guys seems to be fighting about whether rape, genocide, whatever, not the giving of a name.

I would actually react far less if someone said "Rap, by your words, you're a damned rapist!" I would disagree and think it wrong, but there's so much hurled left and right here that's inaccurate and unfair, eh... But to start REFERRING to someone as "Rapey" is inexcusable, in my book.

And maybe it's an okay thing if you DO kill the thread, Sig. Nobody seems to be able to get through to you, and to me your thinking seems SO cemented on one point that nobody's ever going to get you past it. Not to mention that the subject of the thread itself has long since been left behind.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:49 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
What is the difference between a Ponzi scheme operator and a banker?

This is either the set up for an amusing anti-banker joke, an orphaned punchline, or an interesting philosophical inquiry.

On the surface level, bankers give out money for investments that will never work instead of take money for investments that will never work. However, the 2008 mad scrambling of bankers to get their money back or borrow money to make up for defaulted loans when the money simply was never there in the first place does bear some similarity to a ponzi scheme. The end result is that their irresponsibility crashed the global economy.

I don't see where this ties into the discussion at hand, though. The questionable business practice of some bankers seems like a different animal than whether all bankers are guilty of or enable /support ponzi schemes, or whether someone voting criminals into office makes the voter party to their crimes.

Quote:
In any case, Auraptor, by demanding that all Muslims be killed, can be considered to be engaged in hate speech, which IS a crime.

I've heard Auraptor say some pretty bad things about Muslims and call it a religion of violence, as a justification for the wars we've been having. But that is not the same thing as calling for all Muslims to be killed, or arrested, or deported.

Moreover, in order to qualify as hate speech, it has to pose an imminent danger or threat of unlawful action. I don't really anticipate anyone taking immediate action to destroy all Muslims on Auraptor's say-so, nor that he has the intent to incite anyone to immediate action on this front, let alone that he might believe he could.

Lastly, hate speech is a hate crime, which can include instances of murder, but hate speech doesn't become murder until Auraptor pulls the trigger.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:58 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
I guess for me it's much simpler. We only know one another via written words on a forum; given it's the only way we can communicate, what upset me was having someone called a rapist. Whatever he may or may not deserve (which I don't think is up to us to judge anyway), I would have an equal reaction to anyone here giving him a NAME such as "Prick" or giving a female here a name such as "Cunt" and referring to them that way. It's not about rape, genocide, or what Rap deserves, it's about NAMING someone such a thing.

Oh, believe me, it's about this for me too. But I'm trying to provide the logical argument for WHY this would be wrong, because Sig asked me to provide one.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 11:34 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, MAL4, this is an entirely different discussion, and one that I invited several times. NOW you want to change the discussion??? Fine!

Hunh? What did you invite? And what am I changing? I have very clearly stated several times my point: to equate Rappy with a rapist is incorrect. Did you think I was saying something else? Could you please explain what you thought was going on here? Also, please show the quotes where you thought I was having some other discussion, because you've just gotten really confusing.

Quote:
Quote:
Sig, the thing I will never understand is how you can say someone deserves to be called something which they are not. Does not compute.
It doesn't compute because I didn't say it.

Pardon?

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
USING RAPE AS AN AD HOMINEM WHY ARGHABLE You're all better than this!
Is rape worse than torture? Rappy deserves it, Byte, and more.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAL4- You have yet to explain to me WHY you were so horrified when I equated genocide-promoting rappy with a rapist.

????

If you didn't really mean that Rappy deserves to called a rapist, fine. Just clarify and it's all good. But you can't defend your claim but also say you never made it.

Does. Not. Compute.

So could you clarify: what is your stance here?

1. You never equated Rappy with a rapist

2. You did and the term fits.

Quote:
What if I has said- of a big Ponzi scheme operator, for example- He deserves to be called a robber, or worse. Now, robbery is a violent crime, embezzling not so much. But an embezzler can do far more damage to far more people than a simple robber. In this less emotional setting, does this still seem uninterpretable?

Not so much. The word "robber" is commonly used with a range of meanings, including non-violent theft.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/robber

1. ( tr ) to take something from (someone) illegally, as by force or threat of violence

2. to plunder (a house, shop, etc)

3. ( tr ) to deprive unjustly: to be robbed of an opportunity

Ponzi scheme operators have indeed stolen. They consciously choose to steal and did it for their own benefit. I would call them robbers. ie robber-barons.

Rappy, or anyone who has ever voted Republican or even had a dumb-ass wrong understanding of global politics that led them to argue for stupid things, has not committed rape. Throwing the term rapist at them is unjust, and makes you look worse than it does them.

And now I'm right back where I started this whole dance with you, and it seems no progress has been made.

But, to step outside this thing a little and go back to this whole Jongstraw/KPO thread issue: having this debate with you is *interesting*. There is substance here. (Despite my earlier doubts, I haven't had to go into ignore mode.) We may never agree and may even be a little upset with each other, but good lord isn't it nice to have some real discussion to sink your teeth into?

An exchange like this hasn't happened with Rap or Jong or Geezer for long long long long long long long time.

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess I though the issue was that I called rappy a "rapist". I didn't. What I said was that he "was as bad as, or worse than". In other words, I didn't definitionally say rappy = rapist.

Is rappy as bad as a rapist? Rape is a personally-committed violent crime. Standing on the sidelines cheering rape... as bad as being a rapist? Standing on the sidlines and cheering murder? Cheering murder that is far away? Cheering on the murder of many more than one person? I dunno... what do YOU think?

This goes back to shared responsibility. I suppose, if I were mathematical about it and said that murder was ... picking a number... 1000 times worse than rape. If 100,000 people were killed, that would be like a billion people being raped. But then, rappy is only partly responsible... assuming the responsibility is divided up equally among all people who voted for Bush in 2000, roughly 50 million people, that would be like each voter being responsible for about 20 rapes. So just putting this in context, maybe.

NIKI- you are very sensitive to words related to sexual violence, apparently. I'll keep that in mind.

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:17 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:

NIKI- you are very sensitive to words related to sexual violence, apparently. I'll keep that in mind.

>_>

Is... Is anyone here not? It's kind of a troubling issue in general I thought.

Murder is pretty bad, but rape is often something a person has to LIVE with. Horrifying. I really can't think of much worse that one person can do to another person. Logically I know there's plenty worse, but rape is kinda always at the top of that list anyway.

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AHEM!

For the 4.5th time - I was the one who called little rappy little rapey.

It was in reference to a comment he made below a picture of Jessica Alba that he posted back when, when that was a thing he did.

So, since I think my postings went under the radar because they were too short and people overlooked them, I'm bulking up this post with quotes and colors and lots of space:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=55161&mid=9
39048

Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:59 AM

Just want to briefly reply - I'm not sure why SignyM gets tagged with this, since it's moi.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=55161&mid=9
39289

Sunday, June 02, 2013 7:49 AM

I lit the (m)atch then walked away, I think.

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=55141&mid=93872
1#938721

Friday, May 31, 2013 8:55 PM

YOOHOO! FOLKS!

I didn't have time to read all the posts but that 'little rapey' name was one I gave. So I'm not sure why SignyM is being tagged with it.

It had to do with a comment he made under a picture he posted of Jessica Alba some time back.

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Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE- I guess I'm not particularly. Seeing Hearts and Minds made far-away suffering and death very real. Having our daughter almost die, and imagining my feelings of helpless grief being felt by others ... it's just hard for me to imagine anything worse. Rape is something we all (mostly) can imagine, or have experienced, or know somebody who's experienced it. (unfortunately) Genocide, slaughter, war... it happens far away, to people who don't look like us. It's much harder for us to imagine those events, so it's just not as immediate. We can't put ourselves in those shoes as easily (fortunately for us). So maybe it's just me.

KIKI- HAHAHA!!! Hey, I appreciate you trying to correct the record, but... I stick by what I said anyway, so I guess I 'own' the statement.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
NIKI- you are very sensitive to words related to sexual violence, apparently. I'll keep that in mind.

What Byte said. Aside from that, yours is a pretty silly comment, in my opinion. I would be equally offended by people giving someone an equally-offensive moniker that has nothing to do with sexual violence...it shouldn't be hard to imagine quite a few. I am no more "sensitive" to words (you used the plural; would you like to cite "the others"?) related to sexual violence than many others...it was Byte who first got very upset by the usage, I merely responded to the debate.

All I've said is that, as far as I'm concerned, turning someone's name into something like "Rapey" is inappropriate in the extreme; what possible defense could there BE for creating a name such as that on a conversational forum board?? The names people come up with are quite bad enough, don't you think? Or maybe you don't, I don't know, but to say I'M "very sensitive" is kind of funny, if not disproportionate.

All this has me wondering if something else is going on; respectfully, you seem kind of "head up" about a number of things recently, Sig. I mean no offense, it's just that your posts seem somewhat more, I guess "aggressive" is the closest I can come, than I'm accustomed to, nothing more.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NIKI- I don't understand your response, or Mal4's, or BYTE's. Wish I could say I get it just a little bit, but I don't, not even a little. I guess we all "think" with our feelings... feelings come first, explanations come second... but I'm way more horrified by rappy than you are. At this point, nobody has been able to explain to me, in a way that I can understand, WHY you would be so gosh-darn complacent about someone who's a very vocal supporter of true, widespread ongoing evil, a loud-and-proud sociopath; and so reactive about someone merely pointing out that fact.

If somone had said, of Hitler's many vocal, active civilian supporters during the middle of WWII... while people were being rounded up and gassed... that THEY were as bad as rapists... would you not have agreed? Or would you have gotten squeamish about the "name" that they were being called... Ooooh don't use the word "rapist", that's too awful! Too specific!? Because, the same is happening today: We're in the midst of a WWII, and WE are the Nazis, everywhere we go. (NEXT- Venezuela) I think that most people on this board don't apreciate that part of reality in all it's awful import. I haven't said what I think of your failure to comprehend a truly horrific process. But I think if you really understood what was going on you'd be horrified too.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 7:22 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
about someone who's a very vocal supporter of true, widespread ongoing evil, a loud-and-proud sociopath; and so reactive about someone merely pointing out that fact.

Cheese and Rice. You are being thick about this!

You say Rappy is not a rapist, and in the same breath say he deserves to be called one. That's pure doublespeak, the kind of thing I usually hear from someone who'd rather argue semantics than just admit that they used the wrong damned word.

You said it yourself: he is not a rapist. So he does NOT deserve to be called that.

QED

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 8:48 AM

BYTEMITE

It's kind of an odd argument to make. They're not "as bad as rapists," they're just BAD. Except for the ones running the involuntary polish women brothels at the camp and some of the sadistic guards that used anal rape as torture on male inmates, the concentration camps are more known for slave labor and medical experiments and murder than for rape. It's kinda apples and oranges a little.

Though hmm, thinking more about it, hard to say one is worse than the other.

Also it's curious that you feel you can't relate to strong feelings or sensitivity about rape. For the rest of us that's like saying you can't relate to strong feelings about murder. It almost makes me wonder if you've been desensitized by death-related trauma towards other traumatic issues. Humans have a way of prioritizing dangers they've been most exposed to.

And it's not really that we're being complacent about Auraptor on rape and murder, it's more an issue that he hasn't done those things. Voted for people who allow it, maybe, but then so have we all.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 9:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Jezus Kriste, Sig, you are REALLY on a tear! From what you write, you think nothing is acceptable but that we excoriate Rap (and Geez and Jong and Wulf and, and, and...too) in every single post they write, attack them unmercifully, show him no quarter...on a forum board?!? Isn't there quite enough of that already??

This is getting trollish, in my opinion. I stated my opinion about using the word "rape" as a NAME for ANYONE. I've stated my much more intense feelings about many, many things I've read, read about and posted here. "Complacent"?? My rather intense feelings about Rap's politics, science, his world view, etc., are pretty damned well known. I don't know what more you want; the only way I could be clearer about my dislike of his positions would be to go after him like Kane used to go after me, or like Wulf GOES after me to this day. That's bullshit, and IT WOULD ACCOMPLISH NOTHING ANYWAY.

I think you're talking nuts. We're human beings; we're all nasty enough to each other as it is. Why would you be virtually DEMANDING we be even nastier; I don't even know what you want, you think we should jump down his throat every time he dares to even POST or something? Call him Nazi, murderer, whatever would fit your opinion?

I'm sorry; you've gone waaaay too far "out there" for me. "Sociopath"?? "Hitler"?? Give me a BREAK! "feelings come first, explanations come second"--no, INTELLIGENCE comes first; simple common sense: to rant and rave all over Rap or anyone else here is just plain stupid. Of COURSE I'm horrified by what my government is doing, has done, will do, but dumping on Rap is the absolute LAST thing that's going to change that! I've been horrified since I was old enough to understand--you know, remember Viet Nam. What exactly has changed in all that time? So I'm going to get on some forum board and start "screaming" at people who support things that horrify me: That will do exactly what?? What it does now; get them to rant and rave back at me, snark at me, call me names, and make any form of communication completely impossible. Whoopee, I'd have accomplished exactly what?

I don't know what's up with you, but your sense of proportion is shot to hell, your common sense seems to have flown out the window, and you're sounding downright insane to me. Or trolling, I can't decide which, and at this point, I really don't care. I wish you could get a grip...

As for me, this..."discussion" doesn't work, it's a one-way temper tantrum...is at an end. Talk to you again when you come back down to earth.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 2:23 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I think using 'rapist' as a general term for a morally bad individual, is not helpful. Even supposing that person deserves such damning judgement.

For example calling Hitler a rapist, is nonsensical, and unhelpful. We shouldn't talk about different types of evil as if they are interchangeable. That's my view.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 4:03 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

We shouldn't talk about different types of evil as if they are interchangeable. That's my view.

Applause, applause, applause.

(Skip ahead to :21)

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
calling Hitler a rapist...

YOO HOO!

I said "as bad as, or worse". Apparently, you don't know the use of the word "as"... "It's as hot as hell" (Not literally, who the hell knows how hot hell IS, assuming it exists), "She's as cold as ice" (Really? I touched her, she seemed kind warmish to me).

Quote:
you think nothing is acceptable but that we excoriate Rap

Also, you seem to be conflating what I feel/think about rappy with how I respond to him. I'm not suggesting that anyone dump on rappy. I make a point of ignoring him myself, and I think I wrote a rather long post why I think everyone should do the same.

READ MY POSTS WITH UNDERSTANDING MUCH?

Apparently not.

I'm reacting to your outsized, outraged (OUTRAGED! I tell you!) reaction to my phrasing when I wrote ABOUT rappy. At this point, you prolly don't want to know what I think of you either. Far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

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Thursday, June 6, 2013 7:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... what possible defense could there BE for creating a name such as that on a conversational forum board??"

In a spasm of TMI he indicated he would like non-consensual sex with an actress.

Specifically

Select to view spoiler:

by surprise from behind

Well, drat, my mouse just quit - making copy/ paste and all very difficult. I'll try and be back soon.

ETA: Aside from him spilling his Jessica Alba rape fantasies on the board, the fact that I completely despise everything about him went in to the name I made up for him.

ETETA: "INTELLIGENCE comes first" AFAIK perception comes first. But perception is a funny thing - two people can be in the same place at the same time and be in the presence of the same events and perceive two very different things. As an example - I was at a store the other day when the cashier was having a hard time getting the UPC bar code to scan the items of the person ahead of me. So I commiserated and explained I have to work with a chemical inventory tracking system that often doesn’t scan the bar codes ... was doing a sort of --- scan it -- SCAN IT --- scan it --- --- --- damnit --- SCAN IT! routine --- and the young, energetic (and probably pain free) person in the line ahead of me was laughing and saying, I used to work in a lab, I know just what you mean - AS IF it was the most delightful cause for hilarity, and not another freaking obstacle between a person (me) and the chance to lie down ASAP and ease excruciating pain. So I perceived the scanner glitch to be a taxing obstacle, but the person ahead of me thought it was an opportunity for humor.

So what we perceive is heavily influenced by what we've learned, how we feel etc. And if we perceive things differently then how we feel about them will be different, leading us to consider vastly different courses of action, which we will do with greater or lesser degrees of intelligence.

CODA: So no, I haven't gone through all the back and forth. But since no one who seems to be offended has actually replied TO ME - it seems to me the WHY someone would do it, WHERE did the name come from, WHO it was that actually made up the name and applied it, etc are all pretty much meaningless to you, the anti-SignyM posters. Since, well, assuming the questions that have been asked are meaningful, the answers to those questions reside with me.

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Friday, June 7, 2013 9:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm pretty sure that they have absolutely no intention of understanding you, either. Because you called rappy a name!, and in their book that's like, yanno, some kind of mortal sin!

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