Our truest selves? by SIGNYM

Some of those common belief systems are incredibly flawed, but very popular. I think they lead to a lot of bad decisions and unhappiness.

The especially bad one would have to be 'if you want it enough and believe in yourself, you can do it'. Well guess what, I wanted to go live on Mars. Suppose that my self belief wasn't great enough, as it never happened (not anything to do with I don't have the physical or intellectual capabilities to be an astronaut, my country doesn't have a space program, and they probably won't get people to Mars in my lifetime' No, really, I should have just believed harder.

One side of my family is littered with poor decision making, people who threw caution to the wind and followed their dreams, without actually working out first whether their dreams were realistic or even possible. This is the kind of mentality that leads people to bankruptcy or even jail. Underneath it all is a sense of entitlement - "I can get anything I want." Er no....

Likewise, the ridiculousness around illness. How many times have you heard about people 'fighting cancer' 'not giving in' WTF are they actually doing? They are being treated by the medical profession. Whether they survive or not, depends on the aggression of the cancer, how it spreads and how bad it is when diagnosed. People who die of cancer or any other disease haven't given up, the disease has killed them. I find this attitude appalling and insensitive to those who have lost loved ones. who includeplenty of determined, hope filled people. From some of the rubbish you hear, it almosts sounds like a personal failing not to survive.

It's not that people listen to their emotions, its that they are stupid and believe stupid ideas. Most people are not even very wise when it comes to emotions, and would struggle to name more than 3 emotions that they have actually felt. Angry, sad, happy would be probably the most the majority of the population could do.

People live in denial of how they feel because of the ridiculous belief systems which value cheerfulness, fearlessness, optimism over every other feeling. Most people are terrified of admitting to themselves (let alone anyone else) the seemingly more unpaletable emotions of despair, dread, lonliness, envy et al. And if you don't admit to them, you don't manage them, and hence you end up with people who are emotional time bombs - toxic or destructive in their relationships, or both.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 2:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"From some of the rubbish you hear, it almost sounds like a personal failing not to survive."

Hey, I really, REALLY, REALLY!!!! want to live forever. Yeah, that'll happen.

I often run into heart v head. My feelings tend to be powerful but it tends to work out much better when I listen to my head. There are a few exceptions when heart and head combined into one flawless clarity - but that's rare. Otherwise, I look at following my heart as an indulgence, when I have the luxury of being able to afford losing whatever is at risk.

As for society at large, I think it's part and parcel of the US reverence for the individualistic idiot - the uneducated person who says I may not know much about art, but I know what I like ... along with the myth that you CAN succeed with enough - well, we’ve discounted the luck part of luck and pluck - but lots of pluck will guarantee your triumph.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm like KIKI, I tend to be strongly, powerfully emotional. It's easy for emotions to run my life. But, this isn't about me, really. What I see (on TV in any case) is the constant exhortation to turn off your brain.

In any detective show:
"Why do you think he's guilty"
"I just have this feeling"

Oh, yuh.

I think there are a few reasons why people buy into this:

1) People hate to feel strong, negative emotions. Who likes to feel stupid, or unsure, unloved, afraid, jealous, powerless, or angry? OF COURSE everyone wants to feel certain, strong, powerful, safe, and accepted!

2) Between people's desire to to feel good and their desire to feel in-charge, this isn't a hard sell. So people walk around in haze of semi-synthetic emotions, which actually keeps them rather powerless in unable to effect REAL change.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 4:03 PM

I agree with much of your point here. I see examples of this every day: some kids expect good grades just because they worked so hard, even if they never really learned the material. Parents will even come in demanding good grades for little Suzi or Johnny just because she/he spent so much time on the homework! No matter that she/he can't add 2 and 2. This attitude leads to kids wasting a lot of time doing brainless exercises and never learning how to actually think.

A place where this attitude really drove me nuts was with a sports team I helped coach. In the middle of a tight game the kids (and the head coach *facepalm*) would get all emotional about how they had to just *want* it more and put it all out there yada yada yada. Then the next day at practice they'd stand around gabbing (the team and the head coach) instead of working on their skills. D-uh!

I think of it as a Miracle on Ice misunderstanding. Yeah, this team won in a miraculous way, but it wasn't because they just got lucky, or just really wanted it in the moment. It's because they worked their asses off. People love the end of the movie and seem to forget all those earlier scenes, of kids skating till they puked.

As for the TV memes - I don't have cable TV, never will again. I absolutely hate commercials and any form of advertising. I am always surprised by friends who actually sit attentively through commercials, as they really like being manipulated like that. (I know, they just aren't aware of it.) The mute button exists for a reason you know! Take the 5 minutes to check in with your buddies or something, instead of letting these people program you. That's what advertising does. It's psychological manipulation to make you want things whether you need them or not. It's terrible.

So, I agree on all that, and being a scientist I definitely live with the value of logic and using the head rather than the gut.

However...

I think I'll write the differing view in a separate post. I'll try to be succinct, but it may be hard to explain in brief.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 4:33 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh, I just wanted to add something: it's even true of the so called 'news' (which drives me crazy due to its lack of content). But it's almost like a formalized play:

open with the dramatic (it it bleeds, it leads)

second act, do an 'analysis' by starting with a heartwarming/wrenching story (she never knew what arranging a funeral without insurance could be like until the unthinkable happened one day ...)

third act, do a quick run-through of not too terrible national news if the current news is local, or international news if the current news is national

close with a heartwarming human interest story (no one expected the kitten to survive, but thanks to the NF fire department ...)

I bet you can almost hear the voices of the 'news' anchors saying them.

The aim is to carefully manipulate our emotions and massage us into an entertained and compliant stupor.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 4:36 PM

OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel? Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.

At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.

I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.

My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.

More examples

A concert pianist playing Claire de Lune has no logical control of the timing between those opening chords, the changes of tempo throughout. A computer could be set up to tap it out, but it is the pianist's ability to allow their emotion to dictate the timing, and trust their technique to carry through, that makes the music.

I did a dance concert a few weeks ago. It was the first time I really let go of micro-managing dance. I didn't compulsively review every phrase and entrance and exit in a state of angst that I'd screw up. My body just knew what to do. It was much more enjoyable and, I think, expressive performance than I've ever had before.

Yes, that's all the arts, but I think this applies to science as well. With the significant caveat that time must be taken to inform the gut, One's "instincts" can lead to brilliant insights. Question for students: how long must I spend on a treadmill to work off a bag of M&Ms? They've handed in, for a grade, anything from microsecs to millenia. They never take a minute to ask their gut if that makes sense.

My point reworded: A detective has years of experience buried in their subconscious. That thing is powerful. It's the largest part of our brains, I think. When they have a "gut" feeling that the evidence isn't telling the whole story, they should at very least consider the option.

Back to the OP. I think the problem is not so much that people trust to their guts and emotions too much, it's that they're too lazy to educate their guts first, or to assess things when the gut isn't leading them good places.

Oh, one more thing. I think that listening to the gut is a way to avoid all that programming that goes on. My example: if someone asked me when I was 22 what I wanted to do with my life, there was always a first answer that flitted by before I could even consciously consider it. Because that just couldn't have worked (my programming said.) And now I regret that I did not allow myself to consider it.

So my version of "listening to my gut" is trying to find that first answer that comes out of my brain before all my fears and logic and programing smother it.

OK, I'm still Spock-like with all the analysis. But it's a lot more interesting these days than it used to be.

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
If you believe in it, you can fly.

When I was a kid, I had this odd dream , of a younger me, who'd jump off the furniture, try like hell to fly, and 'almost'could , for half a moment, and then I'd hit the ground. It was almost like a memory, instead of a dream, as I recalled ( in my dream state ) that if only my arms were a bit stronger, I could do it. The thing about it all was the sensation of half hovering, in the air, as I was on the verge of staying aloft.

After going back and forth, trying to figure out if that really was just a dream, or some memory in deep recesses, I actually gave it a shot, just to make sure.

Our minds don't know reality from our imagination.

T'was a fun dream, at least.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

SignyM

Maybe the measure of what our truest self is, isn't what we feel (even though we're encouraged to think that), or what we tell ourselves are our reasons - but what we do, or fail to do. What we do is everything all rolled into one succinct real-time sum of our thoughts, our impulses, our memories, our feelings - acknowledged or not - our histories and environments, and that small smidgen of decision making capability that rests askew on everything else.

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Monday, July 1, 2013 7:54 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you believe in it, you can fly.

Don't forget the companion to this one.

"If we all would just..."

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, July 1, 2013 8:50 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"If we all would just..."

Do you go out of your way to be a stupid douche?

No one is claiming that anyone BELIEVES we could get "all to just ...". It's a thought experiment, a 'what if'.

No wonder you can't be taken seriously, old fart.

ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Monday, July 1, 2013 9:28 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

"If we all would just..."

No one is claiming that anyone BELIEVES we could get "all to just ...". It's a thought experiment, a 'what if'.

So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, July 1, 2013 10:12 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

WAY TO GO MR STRAWMAN!

Did I make that argument? Please - point out where.

ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU OLD FART!

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Monday, July 1, 2013 11:24 AM

Wow, got to hijack a thought provoking non partisan thread. Way to go. Yay.

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Monday, July 1, 2013 11:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA

And what if your "Truest Self" distills all the way down to a cry of outrage ?

Not an adults cry of outrage, filled with petty bitterness of not having their turn at the wheel of the machinery of oppression, full of blinkered rationalizations and justifications and excuses and jealousy of those who stand at that wheel...

But the pure, white hot rage of a child, for all the people crushed under that machine ?

Understand that, you understand me.

The only reason I'd ever want my turn at the wheel of that bastard is so I could drive the motherfucking thing off a cliff.

-F

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Monday, July 1, 2013 12:00 PM

Very profound, Frem.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 2:25 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
WAY TO GO MR STRAWMAN!

Did I make that argument? Please - point out where.

"Between the US and the EU, achievable reductions are roughly 3 TIMES the increases due to China and India. So yes, in fact, the US and the EU COULD solve the problem all on their own, at least when it comes to balancing emissions from China and India. In fact, the US could solve the problem without any contribution from anyone else."

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 2:40 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

I don't think we have a "ture self". At least not one that is any type of constant. I think all of us are much more fluid in who we are. There may be numerous beliefs that we will always hold true, but how we move through life changes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't think we have a "ture self". At least not one that is any type of constant. I think all of us are much more fluid in who we are. There may be numerous beliefs that we will always hold true, but how we move through life changes.

Hmmm. I've been avoiding posting on this thread because I don't entirely trust myself. But I think for once I might agree with you, Nick.

We're not shining glittering examples of truth, justice, and hope expressed through the philosophies of enlightenment versus romanticism. We're not even right or wrong. Those terms have little meaning beyond whatever sentiment we might attach to them, and then we tell ourselves that we're being LOGICAL about it. Heh.

Beliefs are be-LIES that help us get through the day. We build our own realities so we can stand to look ourselves in the mirror. But even ideas can crumble and where are we all then? How do people react when their whole world is pulled out from under them?

If you want to ask me what the true state of humanity is, I'll answer that it's defiance. We scream out against the dark, yell that we do have meaning, fight tooth and nail with each other, struggle against our own mortality. Everything else is just the window dressings of how we attempt to accomplish that.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.

GEEZER- It seems to me that you've been arguing the "Real News" thread in every thread except the "Real News" thread. Why don't you take this post there, instead of threadjacking?

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE, NICK - I guess my point is not that we have a "true self", but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators (to motivate: to cause to move). In that state, we are easily manipulable.

I saw a sign once that said "Manipulate your stimuli". Oh, well, it could be considered kinda smutty, I guess, but it's also a profound truth. People don't have to JUST use their intellect to rationalize/excuse primarily unconscious behavior. They can at least use their intellect to identify and acknowledge whatever feeling is causing them to act (move).

FREM- There is a point in childhood where one is old enough to perceive a harsh reality, but not old enough to rationalize (explain away, minimize, contextualize) it, or even feel any agency over it. It's a good thing that you remember it so deeply. It propels you to move foreward, "never to forgive, never to forget" on behalf of others. For you, it must be hell on wheels. How're you doing, by the way?

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:05 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BYTE, NICK - I guess my point is not that we have a "true self", but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators. In that state, we are easily manipulable.

It is not just the MSM it is everyone. Almost everyone that speaks to you is trying to influence you in one way or the other. We you realize this it takes the power away from those people. Of course the danger is not listening at all and becoming blindly set in your ways.

Movies use heroes that go with their gut not because they want people to act that way, but it makes a better story and they want people to spend their money and watch. We all know, or should, that real life does not work that way. Thing is no one is going to watch a movie in which decisions are made in a committee meeting.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:15 AM

Quote:
but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators. In that state, we are easily manipulable.

Sometimes. And sometimes fear is the only thing that keeps us from walking off a cliff.

Fear and mistrust and anger and cynicism and other negative emotions are not always bad things.

It's also important to recognize when someone wants something, or when you can't help someone.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Fear, anger and mistrust are GOOD things, but only when they warn you of real danger and motivate you to take proper precautions. But when they obscure reality ... as when ANY emotion obscures reality... it can cause one to do stupid things. Look at rappy- the guy is terrified of Muslims. That terror is causing him to support all kinds of stupid and ultimately self-defeating actions. That terror, stoked in millions of people, is creating the kind of "cover" that TPTB find useful to pursue actions which will ultimately destroy the very people who supported it (along with a whole bunch of others). Along the same lines, people who think "happy thoughts" despite clearly unfavorable circumstances make just as disasterous decisions. **ETA** OTOH, people who fail to see opportunities because they live their lives in a constant defensive crouch may not accomplish much. ***

So, as far as fear, anger, and mistrust... carry on! Not enough people feel those emotions; most people seem to be living in some kind of comfy cozy little cocoon (which was why they were so shocked.. shocked, I tell you!... by 9-11) and so far your emotions have led you to some interesting and useful insights. Just be prepared to realize that SOMETIMES those feelings are not reflective of all of reality.

And, learn how to handle being in the midst of ANY strong feeling.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:30 AM

...Your warnings, however well-meant, serve only to make me more paranoid.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:31 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GEEZER- It seems to me that you've been arguing the "Real News" thread in every thread except the "Real News" thread. Why don't you take this post there, instead of threadjacking?

KIKI started the threadjacking. I made this statement:

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you believe in it, you can fly.

Don't forget the companion to this one.

"If we all would just..."

I often find that statement, or something similar, in discussions here and elsewhere. It seems to me to be the same wishful thinking as "If you believe it, you can fly", but expanded to "If everyone would just believe it, we could all fly".

I didn't mean it to apply to a particular thread, just a particular type of thought.

Besides, if I didn't respond to KIKI, I'd get the old "Geezer has no response so I must be right" from her(him?).

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sometimes discussions move along different lines. Some are meant to spark ideas... brainstorming sessions. Others to decide on a plan of action. Others are more contemplative. This seems to be a more contemplative thread.

But I agree with you- thinking that universal belief will make the unreal real is, of course, fantasy. OTOH, thinking that a widespread change of paradigm won't change decision-making is also fantasy. If you don't think that can occur, then you can hardly support the idea of a Libertarian society.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
...Your warnings, however well-meant, serve only to make me more paranoid.

Your paranoid musings are always interesting. But see the addition to the post just before yours.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Heart, gut, head.... and why???

In today's relatively coddled world, where to begin?

Although I agree there is the tech and ability to make sure every homeless person had a home, society in general could not exist if it were true.

The TRUTH is, there are at least 10% of us at any given day who flat out don't deserve or might not even ever want to live in a conventional suburbanite home.

It's already happening with me. As well as i've set myself up, I can get nearly 2k a year in foodstamp benefits which pays most of my property taxes and insurance back to me in the way of food. Sure, it's twice as much as i ever would have spent of my own money on food, but at the same time, I'm eating better than I have in 13 years because of it.

Come Jan.... I'll be qualified for the very best Obamacare health package out there, which essentially translates to today's Medicare program.

Between those two benefits, why bother even looking for a better job?

To make enough money per hour, I'd have to increase my yearly salary today by nearly 300% to make it worth it for me to "move up".

Such is the pitfall of Communism, and such is what we'll all be enslaved to eventually.

Why should I bother inventing rockets to send to your anus for some multi-national company when i could make just as much money mopping shit off the floor in the bathroom of the same station?

Don't look at me. I make about 9k a year, and now I get all those taxes back.

I mow my lawn and keep the inside from rotting out. I don't have a wife or kids. That's all I'm accountable for to my neighborhood in my books.

I'm actually "set" from here until our self-imposed apocalypse.

It's probably why I've never gotten along with nearly any of you since i started back when GWB was destroying our country.

The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.

Our truest selves....?

Actually, I've been wondering about that for quite a while now.....

Am I really the bad guy?

Sure, I've divuldged things about myself over the years and been judged rather harshly sometimes about it, but when I look around, I'm the ONLY one doing that.

The more I know about people, the less I want to know about people.

OKAY! My secret's out. I'm a part-time massive binge drinker in my bad times. I post a lot of shit I regret nearly immediately and I have to self-block myself from Facebook or even MySpace.

I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.

There's a reason why I never really got into any trobule when I was growing up as the oldest of three latch-key kids when I was 10 years old.....

It's not because I have half a brain. It's because even if it's not readily apparent to people here, I DO live by a certain code.

It's a VERY rare thing when I ever judge somebody by their own personal code when I see it.

Compromising that code for any reason however, had better been followed up with an epic explanation....

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:18 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Sometimes discussions move along different lines. Some are meant to spark ideas... brainstorming sessions. Others to decide on a plan of action. Others are more contemplative. This seems to be a more contemplative thread.

But I agree with you- thinking that universal belief will make the unreal real is, of course, fantasy. OTOH, thinking that a widespread change of paradigm won't change decision-making is also fantasy. If you don't think that can occur, then you can hardly support the idea of a Libertarian society.

I have no doubt that paradigms can change, but generally the pace is glacial. Civil rights for African-Americans took well over a century, and was based in abolitionst thought that was already hundreds of years old.

I don't expect to see any major elections won by Libertarians in my lifetime, but it seems as likely a philosophy for folks to eventually grow into as any other. I'd hope that folks eventually would rather be independent and self-reliant, while understanding that they should not get there by the route of hurting others.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.

Weren't you just talking about how you have an addiction to Netflix?

I don't watch tv, or netflix.

Quote:

I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.

<--- Diagnosed with major depression and anxiety from chemical imbalances. Total bitch. Likes vidja games.

Or I could whine about how my PARENTS didn't underSTAND me - like everyone else in the world, but I'd be lying if I did. I still go hiking with my dad every Saturday after I make him a sandwich, and it's not the least bit about some gender role thing. Helped my mom build a cat enclosure the last two weekends and been helping her fix up my grandmother's garden since spring.

No sad story here, just born mean. People want to judge me, that's their prerogative. People aren't gonna like me, and I don't really let it bother me anymore, because I deserve every bit of what I get. I'm no victim. People are accountable for how they act and how other people react towards them.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:12 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.

You are just programed by the booze. I for one will take the new media.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:18 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
If you believe in it, you can fly.

When I was a kid, I had this odd dream , of a younger me, who'd jump off the furniture, try like hell to fly, and 'almost'could , for half a moment, and then I'd hit the ground. It was almost like a memory, instead of a dream, as I recalled ( in my dream state ) that if only my arms were a bit stronger, I could do it. The thing about it all was the sensation of half hovering, in the air, as I was on the verge of staying aloft.

After going back and forth, trying to figure out if that really was just a dream, or some memory in deep recesses, I actually gave it a shot, just to make sure.

Our minds don't know reality from our imagination.

That actually explains a lot about you.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.

I do. It's called "leading by example".

Believe it or not, the U.S. is still *THE* major trendsetter for most of the developed (and developing) world. If "green" is cool, it will spread. You have this idea that one can't lessen one's carbon footprint without making enormous sacrifices, but you can't really support that with real-world examples.

Mostly what it comes down to is that Kiki and Signy suggested something, and you had a reflexive instant reaction to yell "NYUH-UH!!!" in response to it, without really thinking anything through. You're so wrapped up in your own partisan bullshit that you can't accept a good idea until you have it yourself.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 8:04 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Our truest selves....?

Actually, I've been wondering about that for quite a while now.....

Am I really the bad guy?

Sure, I've divuldged things about myself over the years and been judged rather harshly sometimes about it, but when I look around, I'm the ONLY one doing that.

The more I know about people, the less I want to know about people.

OKAY! My secret's out. I'm a part-time massive binge drinker in my bad times. I post a lot of shit I regret nearly immediately and I have to self-block myself from Facebook or even MySpace.

I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.

There's a reason why I never really got into any trobule when I was growing up as the oldest of three latch-key kids when I was 10 years old.....

It's not because I have half a brain. It's because even if it's not readily apparent to people here, I DO live by a certain code.

It's a VERY rare thing when I ever judge somebody by their own personal code when I see it.

Compromising that code for any reason however, had better been followed up with an epic explanation....

Well, where to begin?

I have at times numbed myself to situations that were beyond my control, and which caused me a great deal of anxiety, in several glasses of wine or rum, or- more often, a slice of bread and margarine. Not saying that everyone does, or should, but it's understandable! There's a lot beyond our control, a lot we don't know, situations that just don't fit our personality: an introvert required to be an extrovert, a timid person required to be bold, a decisive person required to be politic, a skeptic required to trust, an attention-deficit person required to be detail-oriented.

Unfortunately, at some point, "you drink because you're sad, and you're sad because you drink".

But you have this "code" and, whatever it is, it seems to be somewhat dyfunctional. Perhaps you're suffering from a serious disconnect between what you want and how you think you can get it.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
FREM- There is a point in childhood where one is old enough to perceive a harsh reality, but not old enough to rationalize (explain away, minimize, contextualize) it, or even feel any agency over it. It's a good thing that you remember it so deeply. It propels you to move foreward, "never to forgive, never to forget" on behalf of others. For you, it must be hell on wheels. How're you doing, by the way?

Unlike many, I am entirely well aware of how the earliest experiences of my life define and guide the actions I take, especially since it was made quite clear to me very early on that me and my values would never, ever be welcome in the world and society I was going to have to live in.
I resent that, you bet, but I held *MY* values, and fuck societys attempts to inflict them upon me, the very first of which was racism, and the end point of THAT was me beating another child with a chair in kindergarten which is certainly not normal behavior - but I was angry at "THEM", the collective name for the hypocritical and abusive bastards involved with and practicing religion and racism and children-are-scum attitudes, and more or less declared war, such as is possible in the mind of someone so young, in that moment.

That made me weird and maybe dangerous, the second blowup (over refusing the pledge) was the capstone that made me a pariah, and the third, slashing up the bully and his cronies, made me downright intolerable.

Downside of that, it took decades to learn any real empathy for humans again, and only by witnessing all too often from point blank range, the plight of those who our society stomps on to lift itself up and pretend it's something more than a sham.

Anyways, that force-focus rage, I am not entirely sure of which is cause and effect, but the berserkerang and early injustices seem very closely intertwined, as historically those were people who were unwelcome socially even before it tended to manifest - and yet the root of almost all of the serious violence I have dished out, has been in fact compassion, of the HOW DARE YOU! stripe... only wish I had learned a helluva lot earlier how using violence does its own damage, cause no matter how much tougher the hammer is than the nails, the hammer takes a beating too, and not just physically, yanno ?

As for currently, I get by, pretty well in fact, enough so to feel off and on guilty about it, which leads to my notorious meddling - we did a lot, a LOT of wheely-deely finagaling a little while back to get more and better mental health care and access around here, without hitting anyone elses pet projects hard enough to lose their support, that was a hard won and valued victory, and a realistically effective one - while everyone else was either screaming for a gun ban, or feeding the fire by fighting one in the most stupid counterproductive ways ever, while any reasonable voices were lost in the shouting, which accomplished not a damn thing in the end...

But we GOT the job done here, thanks in large part to Yousef Rabhi, who is an all around awesome guy - cause as always my issue ain't with the tools with which they do it, but the reasons folk inflict harm on each other to begin with, the root causes, so IMHO this was a more important matter.

http://annarbor.com/news/washtenaw-county-moves-to-hire-39-mental-heal
th-workers-to-accommodate-growing-demand/

And of course, I am a little bit of gallows-humor amused at prettymuch ALL the stuff I was vaguely and obliquely referring to ever since I came here (so as not to draw heat down on Haken and FFNet) finally coming out in a torrential cascade, and very much gratified at Glenn Greenwald (who was smart enough to leave this fuckedup country first, something I commented on at the time) being the one to stick pins in these bastards over it, although I fear for his safety, hell look what happened to Hastings - NOBODY believes that was an accident.

Other than that, nothing much - researching security UAVs cause a remote operated quadcopter type would not only work well here but would also ease the physical strain of my declining health, currently compounded by progressive deterioration similar to CJD (Creutzfeldt–Jakob) but with a different physical cause related to that whole auto-immune kerblooie last march - I did laugh when they mentioned sense of direction being first to go, and pathological rage incidents, as I don't think anyone would much NOTICE either one as unusual for me.

We picked up a Syma S107C RC Copter as a test-of-concept, which is sound enough, although the S107C itself isn't much use beyond harrassing folks in the office and tormenting the cat.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 11:10 AM

Quote:
We picked up a Syma S107C RC Copter as a test-of-concept, which is sound enough, although the S107C itself isn't much use beyond harrassing folks in the office and tormenting the cat.

Oh, that sounds plenty useful. Just not in the way you might have hoped. :D

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 3:00 PM

OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.

You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 3:05 PM

I read your post and nodded all the way through. Guess you couldn't see that bit. Keep posting. I enjoy what you write, even though I might miss some depending on whats happening in my life and how much I am lurking.

Sometimes I read from the bottom up if I've missed a bit. Big mistake as Rap has invariably posted a one liner on the end.

(I too didn't get any responses BTW - seems I don't mind carrying on conversations with myself)

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.

You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.

As with many threads, this one has gone off on several tangents.

People say things here. We don't control how others respond.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As with many threads, this one has gone off on several tangents.

People say things here. We don't control how others respond.

You control how you respond, and Mikey, though I do love you as much as I can an anonymous internet person I really know nothing about, you do tend choose ton g one way a lot more than the other.

Yeah, yeah, I'm 100% immune to it. No one is. But big picture: any community of people chooses what their community is like, either consciously or because it's just a lot easier to win the million and first battle-of-wits with the resident logic-challenged troll than it is to engage in thoughtful conversation.

So, have of it. But own up to what this community has chosen for itself. You can't blame the trolls. They wouldn't live so long if they weren't so well fed.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:08 PM

Mal, in response to your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel? Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.

At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.

I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.

My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.

*I've had similar experiences, and come to a similar conclusion although via different paths.

I grew up in fear of emotions, and not being able to manage very strong feelings. My mother had a breakdown when I was young and, being the only girl, there was a sense from all around me (and myself) that I was destined 'to lose' it sometime in my life. Strong emotions were not very well tolerated anyway - you tended to be left to cry it out or reprimanded for showing extreme distress or anger.

Fast forward to adulthood and turns out none of this is very helpful in managing day to day ups and downs of life. Firstly, not being able to seek out or expect comfort when I needed it, or give it to others. That's probably given me the most difficulties and has ruined countless friendships.

I also had the misfortune to seek counselling from counsellors who practised very heavy handed forms of CBT, which for me was a disastrous. The whole message of CBT is to mistrust your emotions, question them, check for rational validation. 'Is this really an appropriate feeling?' For someone who already struggled with understanding what I was feeling and tended to be harsh about what i was feeling, this just confused me even more.

About 8 years ago I did a train the trainer course that changed my life. It was around teaching parents to raise emotionally resilient children and was adapted from pyschologists like Golemand and Gottman. It requires that before you try this on your kids, (or train in it) you have to think about how you feel about emotions. What were the messages you got as a child? How did your family act around emotions? Secondly, it encourages you to understand and accept ALL of your emotions as being valid, while requiring that you have ways of managing them. This has been all very good for me, and apart from being a great strategy for parenting, has helped me cope with difficult stuff in my own life.

Your examples of how emotion/intuition is required for creative quests also rings true for me as I am now learning the piano. The teacher talks about muscle memory and training one's ear. All different from that higher brain stuff where you reason things out, which you need while learning a piece.
Music, like other creative endeavours, stretches the way you use your brain, connects hemispheres.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.

You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.

._.

Sorry.

I went back and reread, and I think I agree there. I'm probably in the middle - I think it's a bit dangerous to let one particular style of thinking dominate the approach to all situations. I think people in the know can tailor convincing arguments to either style, and they also probably do. The "wait a minute" response, whether from a logical basis or an emotional basis is one of our most important reactions.

Although, I confess that if someone starts to talk TOO touchy feely and sentimental, I tend to react negatively towards that while I don't react negatively towards pure science/logic.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:47 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Just a little bit more threadjacking, then I'll quit.

Geezer, where did I say we could, or should 'ALL just ...'? Nothing happens in this society with us 'ALL just ...'' A lot of times a FEW just ..., sometimes it's the MAJORITY just ..., but we don't 'ALL just ...'.

So, please READ my post again. REALLY READ ***MY WORDS***, and stop arguing with the voices in your head. You'll find comprehension goes so much better if you do.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:00 PM

I wasn't very good at expressing emotions either, though not really as a fault of my parents, just another from birth thing I had where I tended to be really quiet and not expressive. And I was also mistrustful, even of my parents, and so I always deliberately set myself apart from people.

It really was only about five years ago, coincidentally when I found this board, that I really began drooling all my emotional bullshit everywhere, and it's been really hard to stop. But I've been making the effort.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:29 PM

Expressing emotions is different from understanding what you feel. There is nothing about being emotional resilient that calls for people to pour out every scrap of feeling to others, even though at times that might be useful.

The idea is that for people who can understand their own emotional responses, they don't get overwhelmed by strong emotions, and they can therefore manage living through them better than someone who has no understanding. I'm putting it rather crudely.

The fact is I'm still not particularly emotionally intelligent, even though I've come along way, I do get overwhelmed when things go wrong and can be quite paralysed. I have to make a conscious effort to talk to myself ie 'this is what grief feels like, you feel it in your chest and it makes it hard to breathe. If you work on your breathing, it will help you feel better. You will not feel this bad forever' etc - while also doing some practical stuff ie 'what can I do when I feel bad - who is good to talk to etc etc.'

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:13 PM

OK, after all my whining, I have to walk the walk and spend some time replying thoughtfully.

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Unlike many, I am entirely well aware of how the earliest experiences of my life define and guide the actions I take, especially since it was made quite clear to me very early on that me and my values would never, ever be welcome in the world and society I was going to have to live in.

Yeah, this. It's a conclusion I've come back to time and again in my life. Have to say, one thing I love about NYC is that "freaks" like us, those who do not want the average American "dream", are fairly common here. It's why I can't live many other places.

Quote:
was me beating another child with a chair in kindergarten which is certainly not normal behavior - but I was angry at "THEM"

Wow. Interesting.

I'm trying to remember the name of a book a long ago roommate of mine had. I didn't read it, but we discussed the idea: that a good many "insane" people are not really insane, they are only having rational responses to an insane society.

Quote:
That made me weird and maybe dangerous, the second blowup (over refusing the pledge) was the capstone that made me a pariah, and the third, slashing up the bully and his cronies, made me downright intolerable.

I wish I'd had the courage to do some of this. I experienced bullies both my age and older, and I was crushed by them.

Here's something uplifting: I recently became aware of an institutionalized adult bully. I spoke up against it with some small effect. More effective was a teenager who stood up in class and read a reasonable but honest and gentle manifesto against the bully (yes, a teacher). I am not deep enough in the system to know what all followed, but there was improvement. I pulled that brave teen aside and told him how awesome he was, no matter what Management had to say. (Also, he's brilliant in many ways and won't be held back by any of this.)

The new generation has these kinds of kids in it. I have hope.

Quote:
only wish I had learned a helluva lot earlier how using violence does its own damage, cause no matter how much tougher the hammer is than the nails, the hammer takes a beating too, and not just physically, yanno ?

And this kind of hammering only creates more nails. I know something of how you think Frem, but as I age I have discovered that a gentle approach reveals that most of these nails aren't so very sharp. Many are just as scared and misunderstood as everyone else.

Some don't back down, sure, but I know it's all on them. I know they're just not reacting to me. So I dismiss them.

As for your current works: I do understand your struggles, as I have lived in that kind of Midwest. I suppose I could have chosen to stay and work at it, but that's not for me. It would have only made me and others unhappy. I am better in a blue state gathered up with all the other oddities.

But more power to you who stay and fight the good fight.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I grew up in fear of emotions, and not being able to manage very strong feelings. My mother had a breakdown when I was young and, being the only girl, there was a sense from all around me (and myself) that I was destined 'to lose' it sometime in my life. Strong emotions were not very well tolerated anyway - you tended to be left to cry it out or reprimanded for showing extreme distress or anger.

I'm here with you on this. Really, in a serious way. (Sidenote: I think you and I are approaching this from the opposite side as sig, who started more emotional and has shifted to become more logical. Proof that balance is best.) Anyhow, showing emotion in my history has been just a recipe for showing people how to hurt me. That hesitation is burnt into me, and I think it will always be my instinctual reaction to hide my emotions. I rarely LOL. I don't have a vocal laugh. Isn't that sad? Just how I am.

Quote:
Firstly, not being able to seek out or expect comfort when I needed it, or give it to others. That's probably given me the most difficulties and has ruined countless friendships.

Yep. Check.

I looked up CBT on wiki. Don't quite get it. It does make me think of my dad, a sober alcoholic who used to say (as part of being sober): "If I'm mad, I'm wrong." Now I understand that was how he checked his own reactions to negative emotions, but me, being young and impressionable (total daddy's girl!) took it mean I should doubt and bury my feelings.

But which I mean, you said: "For someone who already struggled with understanding what I was feeling and tended to be harsh about what i was feeling, this just confused me even more." Yes, yes, and yes.

Quote:
What were the messages you got as a child? How did your family act around emotions? Secondly, it encourages you to understand and accept ALL of your emotions as being valid, while requiring that you have ways of managing them.

More yes. My first good round of therapy as an adult, I discovered that I felt that anything that made me happy was wrong. How in the hell did I get there? My logic was at war with my emotions, unfortunately.

So that's where I counter the OP. It is vital that I listen to and respect my gut, or I will never find my way to doing what makes me happy.

Wow, the piano. I can't handle all those notes! But I have been trying to play the cello for years, and although I don't play in front of people often, I find that I play best when 1: I have been practicing on a regular basis so the left hand knows where the shifts are and the right hand has a "feel" for the bow; and 2) I do not listen to what I'm actually playing, but have some imaginary flow of the perfect form of the music in my head.

Not that I can play anything anywhere near perfect, but when I'm driven by what the notes ought to be saying, I don't think about shifting and bowing. I feel like the notes and phrases are coming out of some internal place, as if I'm singing. I wouldn't impose this on an audience, given that I started when I was 30 and don't practice often, but I think of it as a way to access the deep parts of my brain. Meditation, perhaps?

Anyway, back to the piano: my theories as the subconscious are all about piano. I cannot imagine how even a mediocre pianist plays all those notes without giving in to a serious non-controlling subconscious brain that is far beyond me to find. Yet.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It really was only about five years ago, coincidentally when I found this board, that I really began drooling all my emotional bullshit everywhere, and it's been really hard to stop. But I've been making the effort.

Why? Yeah, you had a few times that were a little over the edge, (as have we all) but I think you've learned from them. It's been a long since I found you anything but unaffected and entertaining.

Keep on, imho.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 6:49 PM