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Three dead, four wounded in Pennsylvania town hall shooting

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 04:36
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Monday, August 5, 2013 5:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This just came up, so I don't guarantee its accuracy:
Quote:

SAYLORSBURG, Pa. — A gunman blasted shots through the wall of a Pennsylvania municipal building during a meeting on Monday and then barged into the meeting room and continued firing, killing three people, before he was tackled by a local official and shot with his own gun, a witness said.

The shooting, which also injured some people, happened shortly before 7:30 p.m. during Ross Township's monthly meeting, Monroe County emergency management director Guy Miller said. The gunman, who appeared to be "shooting randomly," was captured and was treated at a hospital, which was placed on lockdown, he said. The shooter later was released into police custody, said the hospital, which was treating two shooting victims.

State police in Lehighton confirmed the gunman had been captured but didn't immediately have details on the arrest.

The Pocono Record said one of its reporters was in the township building and a gunman armed with a pistol with a scope shot through a wall into the meeting, in a rural area of northeastern Pennsylvania about 85 miles north of Philadelphia.

The reporter, Chris Reber, told the newspaper that all he saw was holes go through the wall, with smoke and plaster blowing out. He said he heard automatic gunfire.

"I ran out after the first round of shooting. I dropped to the floor. That's what everyone did. ... Then it stopped and I crawled out the side door," Reber told the newspaper, which posted his account online. "I was the only person who crawled out. Everyone got behind a table. Some of the supervisors were over on the side throwing up."

Reber said a woman opened a door to the meeting room "and he (the shooter) was standing there. A man pushed her aside and was shot. People were shot inside the room."

The shooter returned to his car and came back inside with another weapon when a local official at the meeting grabbed him, Reber said.

"(West End Open Space Commission executive director) Bernie Kozen was there tending to the man and he (the shooter) didn't see them," Reber said. "Bernie bearhugged him and took him down. He shot (the shooter) with his own gun."

Rep. Matt Cartwright, who represents the state's 17th District, said he was "stunned and appalled at the atrocities that claimed the lives of innocent citizens in Ross Township." He said he had heard about what Kozen did to prevent more bloodshed.

"Mr. Kozen is a true hero tonight," Cartwright said in an emailed statement.

Authorities initially said two people had been killed and three had been injured. After the third person died, it was unclear whether that person had previously been classified as one of the injured.

Ross Township has about 5,500 residents. According to its website, the board of supervisors meets at 7 p.m. on the first Monday of each month. http://www.centredaily.com/2013/08/05/3722030/2-reported-dead-in-pa-mu
nicipal.html#storylink=cpy



This is only a few miles away from that crazy police chief in Gilberton, PA. Pennsylvania is having a tough week, it would seem.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 10:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA



More that the bubbling cauldron of corruption is boiling over, I think.

There's this nexus of awful corruption following the I-80 corridor from Wilkes-Barre to Pittburg, and stuff like Sandusky, the Kids for Cash scandal, and all these other things are symptoms rather than causes, this is a corruption that is bones-deep in the state and goes back a century and more, the signs of it are ubiquitous and everywhere, and even the turnpike itself is not immune, between the phony construction zones set up to frustrate drivers into "speeding" (and naturally allow them to double the fines) to the constant problem of human trafficking and prostitution, which the TA management to their credit tries to do something about, but when the local managers are involved participants it ain't easy.
Not to mention Breezewood is like smuggler heaven and despite appearances actually quite dangerous if you don't watch yourself.

Past a certain point of it, who DO you turn to when everyone and anyone is dirty ?
When the only people who have the resources and authority to investigate are the most involved ?
And good LUCK finding someone who not only has the power and authority to act, but also the will... that one ground my gears for near a decade before Jennifer Granholm took action against the "Sinister Six" and did in six weeks what my efforts hadn't made a dent in for a decade, and it was rammed home when trying and mostly failing to fight off the institutionally corrupt Elkhart, Indiana county legal system, run by certain families in a fashion more common to a mafia.

Luzerne County PA also has that problem going for it as well.
http://www.theluzernecountyrailroad.com/
Mind you, that book was primarily written BEFORE the Kids for Cash scandal, which again is a symptom rather than a cause.

And on occasion, one of the bubbles of that steaming cauldron pops and you get folks like Marven Heemeyer, or Roger Pion, or an incident like this, where someone who feels they have been pressed to the wall and have no remaining options decides to retaliate over real or perceived injustices.
The saddest thing about it all is that it all but TAKES such an incident to bring enough "official" attention down on the situation to take corrective action, which is all too often a few slaps on the wrist and sliding it back under the rug.

Even sadder is that Gilberton is *NOT* a unique aberration, but actually a commonplace problem, cause here's a few examples of the same kinda crap.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/06/maywood-rip-when-police-k
ill-city.html

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2013/03/welcome-to-sulphur-spring
s-when-police.html


Now Grigg restricts his focus in the articles to the police forces, but truthfully in order for things to GET that bad, it also requires institutional corruption of the local judiciary and leadership which, once firmly in place, is all but impossible to dislodge barring Federal intervention, and sometimes not even then (See Also: Detroit) when the Feds they send to stop it become involved and willing participants.

So, while tragic, this event is no more unexpected than a thrown brick eventually hitting the ground, a natural consequence of an ugly, festering situation which has yet to be properly addressed, and is almost impossible to even mitigate from inside or under its dominion.

I figure they pushed the guy and he snapped, which is what it amounts to.

Mind you, sometimes you also get folks who ain't all there that have some sorta perceived gripe, which is another problem, and one best mitigated by improving access/quality of mental health services to the poor, something we HAVE been making a damn good job of here...

But we had one guy, who decided he was gonna camp out on top of the building where local officials were meeting - but not being control freak assholes about it we were all like, meh, he's not hurting no one, just make sure he don't fall off or something, and just let him be - eventually he became tired and hungry and came down, having figured he made whatever point he intended to (even *I* couldn't make any sense of it, he's loonier than PN) and went on his merry.

USUALLY the not-all-there types aren't actually dangerous, but I do feel not getting the help they need can lead to it, sure.

Anyhow, that's all I can say to it...

Symptoms, not Causes, these.


-Frem

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 1:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Not the narrative you were hoping for, was it, Niki ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 2:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


While researching the Gilberton situation I got some of what Frem wrote about...some remarks about that area being the last of the "Wild West" where corruption in government, crazy sheriffs and militias, etc., were not uncommon. I think it's a bit quick to assume this is because of some kind of government corruption, somebody pushed too far (not sure if Frem is saying "unfairly" or what), etc. The story just popped up before I went to bed, so I'll be interested in seeing where it goes, why the guy took matters into his own hands.

A little more has come out; apparently it's now four dead:
Quote:

State police in Lehighton confirm four people are dead and say the gunman had an ongoing dispute with township officials over the possible condemnation of his property.

The Pocono Record says one of its reporters was in the township building and a gunman armed with a pistol with a scope shot through a wall into the meeting, which was being held about 85 miles north of Philadelphia.

The shooter returned to his car and came back inside with another weapon when a local official at the meeting grabbed him, Reber said.

"(West End Open Space Commission executive director) Bernie Kozen was there tending to the man and he (the shooter) didn't see them," Reber said. "Bernie bearhugged him and took him down. He shot (the shooter) with his own gun." http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=9196396



Also not sure why Rap thinks what he apparently does...well, never quite sure IF Rap thinks or what he does, but can always depend on him to try and threadjack with a goad. When you have a Wild-West mentality, lack of respect for human life and proliferation of guns (and possibly a sense of the righteousness to take the law into your hands), people do things like this. It's a very typical situation in America today.

ETA: This is not Gilberton, I might add, so if it's possible to keep this thread on this story, that would be my suggestion. The issue of Gilberton and that (what seems to me corruption, after reading quite a bit) would be less confusing to discuss in that thread.


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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 3:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


( The term 'wild west' as well as ' cowboy' are often tossed around to mean things which don't remotely reflect the true nature of either.

I find it curious how people grab on to certain words and phrases, uses them to express something, even though there's no legitimate connection to the meaning and the words used.

Take cowboys, for example. They are actually hard working, solitary types who put up with all sorts of dangers and challenges out on the trail, often having to rely on themselves to get them and their cattle to their destination. Hardly the 'wild, lawless' image that so often gets tossed around. )

But per the thread... tragic story.




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




When I first saw the headline this morning, I halfway expected it to be that dipshit in Gilberton.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 6:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, Mike, from what I've been reading around the web, it is part of the mentality around that area. The choice of the words "Wild West" weren't MINE, by the way, they were from a blog BY SOMEONE WHO LIVES THERE, explaining that kind of mentality is pretty much the way it is. I'll try to find the reference so Rap doesn't call me a liar.

More info on this story coming out--it's a bit behind, since the death toll is now 4:
Quote:

Feud over ramshackle property in Monroe County led to shooting that killed 3: police

Newell had been in a long-running dispute with township officials over the dilapidated condition of his property, state police Capt. Edward Hoke said. The township supervisors voted in February 2012 to take legal action against Newell for violating zoning and sewer regulations, according to meeting minutes posted online.

Last October, Newell set up a fundraising page online and was trying to raise $10,000 to pay for legal fees in his battle with the township.

The property includes an old camper in the front yard filled with wooden pallets, pieces of what appear to be old railroad ties and trash. A garage leans and appears close to collapse, and a propane tank sits inside an old dog house.

State police, who guarded the property early Tuesday, were awaiting a search warrant so they can enter it.

In June, the Pocono Record wrote a story about what it said was an 18-year fight between the township and Newell over his property.

Monroe County Court in August 2012 sided with the township and ordered Newell to vacate and never again occupy or use the property unless he had the permits to do so. The report said Newell had been living out of a car, a 1984 Pontiac Fiero, and in abandoned buildings since being ordered to vacate.

Newell told the paper he was unemployed for years after an injury from a crash and had nowhere else to go.

"They have no right to kick me off my property," he told the newspaper. "They call my property an eyesore. When I bought it, it was one of only three properties on the entire road that didn't have what they call junk."

Ross Township has about 5,500 residents. According to its website, the board of supervisors meets at 7 p.m. on the first Monday of each month. Excerpts from http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/08/feud_over_ramshackl
e_property.html



That's about what I figured; one person feels wronged and believes he has the right to take the law into his own hands and kill people over what he perceives as the "gub'mint" doing him wrong. I certainly feel for his situation, but that in the eyes of a growing number in this country currently, it gives him the right to take up arms and kill people, is my point.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 6:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow, that was easy. All I had to do was Google "Gilberton Wild West". Not only did this PREVIOUS RESIDENT of the county use the term, he said it made the real Wild West look "serene" in comparison! Here's where I first (but not last) saw the reference:
Quote:

Third, you must understand Gilberton is in a part of Schuylkill County that at times has made the Wild West look serene by comparison, so let's not be shocked if a police chief or anyone else in that area seems a little rough around the edges.

I lived in Schuylkill County before I moved to the Lehigh Valley, and I love the people there. This, however, is the area where the Molly Maguires once went on their rampages and were hanged in the 1870s; this is the hard coal region, where it took hard men and hard women to get through hard times. The region's rambunctious atmosphere, as far as I can tell, has not significantly changed. It seems that every wedding reception ends with a brawl. http://articles.mcall.com/2013-07-25/news/mc-pc-gilberton-police-chief
-20130725_1_assault-rifle-gun-molly-maguires



So hopefully we can dispense with the attempt to threadjack by disparaging the use of the term, and keep this about the shooting in question, not Gilberton (which from what I see on the map is I believe at least one county over, tho' mentally apparently not much different in some respects). Or not.


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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 11:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That's about what I figured; one person feels wronged and believes he has the right to take the law into his own hands and kill people over what he perceives as the "gub'mint" doing him wrong. I certainly feel for his situation, but that in the eyes of a growing number in this country currently, it gives him the right to take up arms and kill people, is my point.



I't sad that the government had 18 years to resolve this, but couldn't come up with anything better than "We're gonna take your property." I'd guess that many chances for a fair settlement were bypassed or ignored.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 11:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Not to mention I hear many cases of unfair repo and underhanded efforts from municipal or county officials to force someone to sell property...

I think there's two sides to this story, and both sides have probably behaved very badly.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 6:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Uh, Byte, "four dead" is "behaved very badly"? Wow.


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Wednesday, August 7, 2013 2:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Not to mention I hear many cases of unfair repo and underhanded efforts from municipal or county officials to force someone to sell property...

I think there's two sides to this story, and both sides have probably behaved very badly.



Looking at a Google map of 'ross township, monroe county, pa' (there are two Ross Townships in Pa. The other near Pittsburgh), you see it's not that rural. There appear to be lots of subdivisions and homes with pools as well as wooded areas. It's 25-30 miles from Allentown, Pa., a pretty good sized city (215th largest in the U.S.), and 75-80 miles from New York City, easily within commuting distance.

From comments in the article, and from having seen it before, I'd bet that Mr. Newell bought the property when it was rural and most places around it were overgrown and junky. After a while, people bought up the properties around him to build homes, and the county changed the zoning to facilitate residential and require hookup to city sewer. When folks who were paying more property tax that Newell started complaining about his junky lot, the Township Council, eager to see more development and not wanting Newell's mess to cause bad publicity, decided to get rid of him.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, August 7, 2013 3:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In one of the articles I read it said there were 5,500 in the town (may be in one of those I quoted above). Of course, it depends on how many are in towns nearby and how near they are, but 5,000 isn't "the boonies" around here at least.

I would agree with Geezer's analysis, it sounds pretty logical and that's the way I've seen things go in places where I've lived. I might quibble with "decided to get rid of him", in that they had given him a whole heck of a lot of time to solve the situation, it seemed to me. I would think the likelihood of neighbors complaining (how it affected their own property values, etc.) would have a lot to do with it. I'm not sure what they would expect him to do, if he had sunk to the point of living out of his car, but however you cut it, I don't see there being any kind of mitigation to his deciding to carry out the "death penalty" for those with whom he disagreed. If there was any corruption involved in ousting him, I don't think it would have taken that long to effect it.

I find it interesting the focus here is on deciding WHY he took their lives into his hands, not for those who died or suffered.


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Wednesday, August 7, 2013 4:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Uh, Byte, "four dead" is "behaved very badly"? Wow.



Four dead sure as hell isn't good behaviour.

The point is, people who do stuff like this have had something push them over the edge.

Like I still think that Sandyhook kid probably was threatened by his mom with some sort of psychiatric treatment or institutionalization. Commence panic attack freak out "my life is over" teen overreaction + psychological instability --> Murder suicide.

Or people who have lost their homes or jobs who go on shooting sprees or murder suicide their families. Or guys who shoot up theatres screening batman because they dropped out of college and couldn't live the lie anymore. Or kids who went bowling just before going into their high school bristling with guns because they were bullied one too many times. Just as it sounds this guy was constantly bullied and harrassed. When some people think the whole world is out to get them, the only thing that makes sense is for them to strike out at the world first.

What's tragic about this is that at any time someone could have done something to prevent the escalation or gotten the shooter some help before he felt like he needed to grab a gun. What's tragic about this is the commentary about the human condition and how close all of us are falling over the cliff. And the society that keeps us on that edge.

So yes, I do feel some sympathy for the devil. These are people just like us pushed too far. And now they're going to be ground up by the criminal justice and prison system. And this guy is ironically going to lose the very livelyhood he was fighting for, and four living breathing people with universes of experiences and emotions are dead now. It's such a sad waste for everyone that the situation got this bad and went this far.

As for focusing on the victims and expressions of condolence and sympathy, there's only so much you can do and feel there, just as there's only so much you can feel if you can only gasp at shootings like this because the shooters must just be monsters with inscrutable inhuman motives. That ain't how it works. Sometimes the only thing you can do is focus on the people who are still alive.

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