How much do you collude with violence towards women by Magonsdaughter

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
The one area of culpability might be irreverent rape humour, which a lot of men find funny, so long as it's not serious.

Two words I can't imagine going together are 'rape' and 'humor'. Perhaps you could provide an example?

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 6:05 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I'm not sure why you went off the rails, and I have no idea why you directed that link at me. I'm sad you've somehow been upset by this and deleted your comments, I just wanted to say:

Quote:
We're mostly objecting to, and trying to ignore for your sake, the suggestion you may or may not intentionally be making that violence against women here in the US doesn't deserve attention or discussion because it's worse somewhere else.

It matters everywhere. And sometimes when you focus on only one aspect of it, as in your posts above, you make it look like you don't care about the other aspects and it raises unfortunate implications. It's probably NOT true, and you do care, but unfortunately you are representing yourself poorly.

But if you really want to go there... Circumcision. Also barbaric.

A masterpiece of civil diplomacy, there should be some sort of award or prize or something. I'm dead serious.

More than that,

KPO, I try to keep track of where people are posting from...by your name I have "British", so I'm guessing England? I'm glad your experiences have been as you say, I hope in time more and more places are.

Magons; yeah, pretty sad, isn't it? There are a few other males who don't seem to be around these days...several in fact, and as in cases like this, Anthony comes to mind...who I believe would be up there with Frem and KPO. I miss them. Interestingly, Frem (and those of whom I'm thinking) are much like the males I've met on mental-health forums, in that they are less "stereotypical males", more thoughtful, more open and willing to talk about things than many "typical" males. I had thought it was because there's often more sensitivity to those who have battled emotional/mental problems, and most mental-health forums are well over 50% female, so men who are willing to come there are unique. But I have to say it's been a nice experience to meet thoughtful males on a forum such as this. I think if those others were still around, we'd hear from them in a thoughtful manner as well; unfortunately, they're not.

I find it sad that men who do choose to speak on such topics experience what Frem has described; the ability to discuss such things thoughtfully should be encouraged and applauded. I certainly do.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I live in quite a liberal country, and my circle of friends is pretty educated, so no I don't really associate with men who are abusive towards women, or condone it. The one area of culpability might be irreverent rape humour, which a lot of men find funny, so long as it's not serious.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Are you saying that violence towards women is only perpetrated by consverative, uneducated men?

I'm afraid the stats don't back you up on that one.

Secondly, rape jokes are an example of colluding with violence against women.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:19 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I have to say, all sorts of questions sprang to mind when I read that. What could possibly be funny about rape? Since my imagination doesn't go there, how about an example ... Do you tell these jokes when women are around? Do you expect them to laugh along? Do women get to tell jokes about cutting men's balls off - all in good fun of course? Do you find that funny as well?

Too many questions ...

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 8:39 PM

Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Most of the time, I'm not really aware of my size. I mean, I *feel* actual-sized. I feel normal, size-wise, within my own skin. The things I do to accommodate a world built for smaller humans are just ingrained into me now, so I don't notice that doorways are just a bit short for me, or ceilings are too low for me to yawn and stretch if I'm standing up.

But one of the places where I *am* aware of my size, and where I have been able to use it to distinct advantage, is in this area. I've been there when women have been groped. Women I knew, women I didn't know, it makes no difference. I get right in the guy's face and let him know in no uncertain terms that this behavior is very not-cool, and will not be tolerated. You'd be surprised how often it ends with them apologizing to the woman they've offended, quite sheepishly I might add.

I've also had to put passed-out women to bed in my room and guard the door by sleeping outside the door in a chair. There will be no gropings or rapes on my watch. Sorry, I don't play when it comes to these things. Grope a woman, hit a woman, rape a woman, and you'll meet the real me - but you'll really wish you hadn't.

And yes, that's probably sexist and a double-standard on my part, but I do happen to believe in a bit of chivalry from time to time.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:04 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

All of them, although I have put my fist through a wall when nobody else was around. It didn't really do anything for me, and I had to repair the wall. :(

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:12 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

To cap this off, it is true that no one ever lives completely up to the gold standard all the time, to expect it is ridiculous, but you do what you can do - although most of my female friends seem to find a disturbing amount of amusement whenever I decide to offer the "official patriarchal chauvanist" perspective in this snarky monotone phoning-it-in deadpan just to mock the notion I might ever subscribe to it.
-Frem

I've come to the conclusion that in order to become a "great man", one should merely work towards being a GOOD man.

That includes no collusion with rape culture or violence towards women, no groping, no "slut-shaming", no blaming the victim.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, August 5, 2013 12:22 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Again PN makes the point that he is a complete fuckwit, whose IQ must be pushing 70.

So far, all those who I expected would bother to respond and find this thread worthwhile (or an opportunity for a trolling) have done so.

If I was Rione, I might go as far as talk about 'my little experiment'

If you voted for Obama, or voted for Bushes, your IQ is below 70 and/or you're a psychopath who participated in violence and genocide of 100-million(s) of women.

Fukwads.

In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China

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Monday, August 5, 2013 2:56 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, I read too fast and missed the "rape jokes" thing, and yes, I too would like to better understand what kind of rape joke is "amusing".

Mike, your first paragraph made me smile. "Me, too". Less so now, but when younger it was always somewhat jarring to be reminded by a photograph or something of how tall--and big (tho' I'm now only 15 pounds over optimum weight) I am. Beds...I added an extra foot to the pallet in my Outback and stuffed it with pillows so mine is long enough out there and there's even room for me (the dogs, of course, have priority, even tho' they've got a huge dog bed right alongside mine).

And it's no doubt one of the reasons I feel less intimidated than some women by men and, as I mentioned, one reason I've been harassed less, for which I'm grateful. You're another one of those good voices; keep up the good fight!

As to that list, I have to caveat the fist through the wall thing. Once, during the really Bad Years, Jim threw a cup at the wall and left the house to drive away. I was in therapy at the time and it frightened me and I called the therapist; she said it was good, that he understood how angry he was getting and absented himself. If the fist through the wall is by way of the threat of violence, of course it's wrong; if it's honestly by way of avoiding hitting the other person, that's more nuanced to me. I can certainly see how it can be used to threaten violence, but from that experience I understand how anyone could choose to explode at inanimate objects to avoid hitting someone when control reaches the edge. I've done it myself (tho' in my case it was my head...and the hole is still there).

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Monday, August 5, 2013 3:55 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Done the fist thru the wall thing myself - I was totally alone, not even talking on the phone. It surprised me how delicate drywall walls are, I didn't think it would even leave a mark.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 9:22 AM

AGENTROUKA

I kind of get the rape joke thing. If it's done as a form of deeply black humor, as a distanced form of acknowledging the reality of rape and violence. Like dead baby jokes or other bad taste, bitter humor. Men and woman both use that.

Which is a stark difference to jokes intended to dismiss that reality. It's usually not that hard to tell the difference.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 11:36 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Two words I can't imagine going together are 'rape' and 'humor'. Perhaps you could provide an example?

Quote:
Are you saying that violence towards women is only perpetrated by consverative, uneducated men?

No, I don't think that. My main point was that there can be social pressures which dictate that some things are not acceptable to say or do - and that's a good thing.

Quote:
Do you tell these jokes when women are around?

All-male company would be the general rule I think. It's probably not quite what you think as well. One time a while ago I was out with some friends and we're walking between clubs/bars, and a girl with an attractive figure and a short dress is walking in the alley ahead of us. One of my friends says something like, "Anyone up for a bit of rape? Rape anyone?" Not loud enough for the girl to hear. He's the kind of guy who wouldn't cheat on his girlfriend, and would never harass a woman in any way. But after a few beers he'll make that kind of comment, for shock value. The fact that it's not really acceptable is part of why it's funny; the other part is its cynical commentary about men, that deep down we're evil lecherous humps... It's flaw if you ask me is its common misconception about rape - that it isn't just men with strong sexual urges losing control of them, it's about men with particular, controlling and sadistic sexual urges. But you don't necessarily think of that at the time.

The idea of rape isn't funny at all. But joking about man's base, perverted sexual nature can be.

Quote:
Secondly, rape jokes are an example of colluding with violence against women.

That's what I wonder.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 12:11 PM

Quote:
The idea of rape isn't funny at all. But joking about man's base, perverted sexual nature can be.

I am familiar with these kinds of jokes, having overheard many drunken poker games and multiplayer video games, these shocking jokes about a stranger, and a subvariation as directed at one of the other boys and their female significant other. Both are in fact a strange form of male bonding.

The first is an example of encouraging the other men to feel that they are not "domesticated," among their friends they can be free from social expectations and responsibilities that were forced on them. The later is an example of challenging a friend in a way that by traditional social norms would be viewed as emasculating - stealing their woman and such, possibly against the woman's will - because only a friend could get away with talking like that.

It has never been, to my knowledge, actually funny. Especially when in some cases it reveals a darker side of a "friend" and what that person often thinks about, ESPECIALLY if later it is acted upon and was earlier brushed aside as just kidding around.

It also perpetuates the flawed idea that men are unable to control themselves.

Unfortunately peer pressure compels many men to go along with this charade, despite how uncomfortable it can be. It's funny, right? It's funny. Just guys having fun. Man, why are you getting bothered about this, got your panties in a twist or something? Don't be such a girl. Wouldn't want to be a spoil sport for my friends. Better keep quiet and laugh along.

Look at that skank, isn't she sloppy? Oh look, she passed out. Now what? Haha, let's mess with her, and take videos of it, and post it on the internet. Boys will be boys, right? Just a wild night on the town. AWROOOOO.

But it is social pressure and norms, and not something I can really fault any guy if they enjoy such jokes. I laugh at tragedies sped up and put to yackety sax, so I don't have a monopoly on good taste myself. But it can get ugly, and creates a culture that is more accepting of abuse of both genders.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 3:29 PM

MAL4PREZ

I have to apologize to Frem. He had some long and thoughtful posts at the beginning of this thread that I somehow totally missed, but I came back and replied to Geezer's tangent. I must go back and catch up sometime. Can't now. Too much caffeine snuck into my iced coffee and I'm a little wired. :)

I threw a bag at a wall once. Missed the wall and hit a window and shattered it. Ooops. I was living in work owned housing at the time. I was shocked that they fixed it for free, no questions.

I was coming home from a spotty mammogram that day. Turned out to be negative, but throwing the bag was helpful. Funny tho, I remember my logic brain first confirmed that there was no computer or cell phone in there before I threw it LOL!

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 4:49 PM

When I get angry/frustrated, I avoid hitting my cats nowadays, but I yell at them if they even come near me when I'm mad and chase them off. Otherwise I aim for maximum damage. Whatever inanimate objects I can hit with whatever part of me I can. Gnaw on pillows and shake them like an animal. Open every cabinet just to slam them closed.

Shamble around and strike or bump into anything that gets in front of me with feet, hands, knees, elbows, hips, head, whatever. Get outta my way WALL! Go to HELL CHAIR! If nothing is convenient I'll just start punching and biting myself wherever I can reach. Eventually I fall down. If I still haven't calmed down after five minutes, I begin punching again while rolling around on the ground.

It's hilariously pathetic.

I've also nearly broken some pedometers and phones and other electronics because they were still in some pants and I threw them at something.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 8:56 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I was coming home from a spotty mammogram that day."

Hm. Not to sidetrack this thread too much - after decade after decade after decade AND decade of cold normal mammograms, as I was drinking iced tea at the local diner I got a call from the big-ass medical center saying they 'found something' on my routine mammogram and I needed to go to 'radiology' for specialty re-testing 'right away'. Said in a serious, urgent voice. I have to say, coming a few weeks after a 911 ambulance trip due to a badly stumbling heart, and a series of ER visits due to wildly out of control blood pressure (which was perfectly good in between times), I was quite rattled. So I went in 'right away' - I mean I asked if they could fit me in in the next half-hour - and they re-tested. They took probably 8 or so extra x-rays of one spot with the original mounted up on the light box - and even I could see the nickle-sized round spot with the dense edges. After waiting for 45 minutes or so for the radiologist to review the x-rays the nurse came out and told me it was normal. NORMAL? I was relieved but pissed too. Why all the drama? Do they feel like they need to crank it up just to get women to show up at all - or what?

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Monday, August 5, 2013 11:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

Well...

In regards to my Ex, EVERYONE (including her!) mocks her cooking, her short attention span and easy distractability has lead to her new husband all but banning her from the kitchen, seriously, she set the stove on fire TRYING TO MAKE TEA!
No malice in it though, and I think that's what seperates needling from actual abuse.

As for wall/furniture destruction, there's usually enough warning for everyone to get the hell out of dodge before I blow a gasket, and due to health concerns that's not really an option any more, but I do have a temper although it's very slow to burn and the fuze is quite long - I wouldn't direct it at people in most cases though, and never at animals, I actually stopped "redecorating the office" midstream to pick up and eject the cat, without even realizing it.

AgentR

I comprehend the black humor aspect of it, hell some of the things I've found amusement from in my darkest hours are downright cringeworthy now... but I never thought that topic was ever funny, not given how often cleaning up the human wreckage of abuse was the job at hand, I don't think I ever could, you know ?

Byte

Quote:
Gnaw on pillows and shake them like an animal.

The berserkers of yore would chew on their shield rims and shake them like that, but if you must use a pillow I reccommend the Ikea Gosa Hassel(1), which is a very firm, solid and durable one.
I hatehatehate "squishy" pillows.

Quote:
Open every cabinet just to slam them closed.

Noooooooooooo!!!
At least you close them, once my Ex went in there and hauled them all open and LEFT THEM OPEN cause we were arguing and she was mad at me, cue epic OCD freakout.

1kiki

Ain't just you, and ain't just mammograms either, I had one doctor totally freak over finding "something" while X-raying a sprained knee and sent me off to the cancer center all a-flutter, and me rather haltingly having to explain to them that the object in question was a bullet fragment, and no I was not going to explain how it got there, sorry.
Doctors these days seem to play everything for friggin drama, or something.

Mal4

No worries, if that's the worst you ever feel the need to apologize for, we're still far from even - I've not forgotten blowing my stack at you in a really undeserved way, so...

-Frem

(1) - I really, really reccommend that one, as I said I dun like squishy pillows, and the usual idea of "firm" is so laughable to me that one girl threatened to send me one filled with rocks, cause I was "obviously a dwarf" - but the Gosa Hassel is VERY firm, quite durable, and yet still comfortable... being decidedly unfond of Ikea, it is in fact the only product I've ever bought from them, and went twenty miles out of my way to do it, so if you're looking for a "firm" pillow that's actually, yanno.. FIRM, there's no better option out there, just sayin.

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Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:00 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Sorry Niki, yes England, near Manchester, if that means anything to you.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thanx, KPO; yes it does. Whether a poster is male or female and where they come from are usually the only things I make note of--sometimes if they mention their age or something of special interest that I want to remember, but usually only the first two things.

Can't tell you precisely why those two things matter to me, although I know I pay special attention to people writing from outside the US because over the years I've gotten a LOT of news and sometimes important news from sources outside this country that we don't hear about, or hear about in a slanted way. It's also about perspective, I suppose. The male/female thing is just 'cuz I hate saying "He said" and finding out it was a female, that has more to do with politeness I suppose. ;o)

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
male responses to this thread

Aurapter deflecting answering any questions by threadjacking back to his usual anti muslim tirade

False. My first post was on topic, and I *DID* address your questions. I did offer a side bar , relating to the issue of violence towards women. But, as it was deemed to " off topic " , I ceded and let the thread continue.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 3:17 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
male responses to this thread

Geezer deflected answering any questions by threadjacking back to the topic of libertarianism

How deflecting?

I noted what the response if a Libertarian Society would be to your list of issues. Since I believe in Libertarian tenets, doesn't seem to be much of a stretch to figure I'd agree with that response.

Also, since there's a good number of folks here who seem to have it in for Libertarian thought, I expected flames.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:50 AM

Stop fooling yourselves. Neither of you answered the questions I posed, and both of you simply wnet back to your own issues.

It's a classic dodge used by politicans all the time to keep their agenda at the forefront while avoiding questions they don't want to answer.

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Answered it.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:38 AM

Where?

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Friday, August 9, 2013 3:55 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Stop fooling yourselves. Neither of you answered the questions I posed, and both of you simply wnet back to your own issues.

Could be true.

I probably would have answered your first set of questions pretty much like Frem did, if not as well. However, I know that many people here tend to respond based on who's posting, rather than what they post, and didn't feel like dealing with the flames yet again in something I'd be interested in discussing. So I just wrote it off.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, August 9, 2013 4:08 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

You didn't want the flames so you went the adversarial route?

Que?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 9, 2013 5:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

So the essential issue being a short supply of guts on your part ?

Well that's bloody unfortunate, hard to have a discussion when ain't nobody got the guts to speak their piece, innit now ?

Not that it's stopped ya any other time, so pardon me if I throw a skewed glance and raised eyebrow at that excuse.

-F

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Friday, August 9, 2013 7:57 AM

In fairness, I'm pretty sure that self-reflection is the worst of all possible types of reflections.

Leads to shit like rumination... and regrets... and self-realization of massive canker-tude. I have oozed emotional canker juice more times than should be humanly possible, and it is always a uniformly awful experience.

I somewhat envy people who don't bother to consider their opinions or reactions respective to previous expressions and just fly by the seat of their pants into flamewars armed with conversation bombs. It's like the kind of conversational nihilism I aspire to but never quite manage.

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Friday, August 9, 2013 8:27 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think that many of you have missed the point of this thread. Most people will agree that using violence in an intimate relationship is wrong - I'm not talking about SM stuff - but violence used to intimidate and control. Most people would say that rape is wrong. These are broad statements that most people can agree upon. But what about these issues:

A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame

Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

Discuss....

Okay...

"A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame" - for the most part no. As Frem said some situation maybe different but for the vaste majority no.

"Some women provoke their partners to behave violently" - Perhaps some women do, that does not excuse in any way the violence.

"Women need to take responsibility for their behavior in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape" - Women need to be mindful that certain behaviors can put them at greater risk of sexual assault. Drinking to the point of passing out at a party is not a good idea. Again, however this does not remove any responsibility or excuse anyone who rapes or sexually assaults another person.

"Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women" - no that is just stupid.

"Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated" - it should not be tolerated.

"It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now" - No it is not okay.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 9, 2013 9:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

KPO- FWIW, the jokes made me cringe.

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 3:22 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

So the essential issue being a short supply of guts on your part ?

Not really. It's knowing that pretty much anything I say that doesn't hew the party line gets intentional misrepresentation and personal insults. Kind'a defeats the purpose of rational discussion.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 4:14 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Okay. Just to see what'll happen.

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
But what about these issues:

A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame.

Depends.

With no way, or only a very difficult way, out, no responsibility.

If it's just convenient, financially or relating to lodging, some responsibility.

If its a "He promised not to hit me again"(for the tenth time), or "He says he'll change", or "But I still love him", A good bit of the responsibility.

Note that this applies to anyone in an abusive relation, not just women. This should apply throughout.

Quote:
Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

Depends.

"Provoking" by not sometimes not getting dinner on the table, not getting somewhere on time, talking to other folks, etc, is generally in the mind of the abuser. The abused has no responsibility for it.

That being said, there are folks, as someone else noted, who do attempt to provoke violence for their own ends. Sometimes it works. If your goal is to get hit, and you do, you bear part of the responsibility.

Quote:
Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

No.

With a caveat.

People do have to understand their surroundings, and that even though they shouldn't have to worry about assaults because of the way they act, dress, or whatever, there are still places where people will react to those things. Would it be wise to walk throught the roughest, most crime-ridden part of a big city drunk with a roll of bills sticking out of your pocket?

Quote:
Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

No. But see caveat above.

Quote:
Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

Depends.

Is it actual threat, or political speech? Quite a differnce between "I saw you on the street today, and I'm going to rape you", and "Rep. X should be raped because of her support of Bill X".

Quote:
It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

Depends (seems to be a pattern here)

If everyone knows going in that a particular game site has rough language (and it doesn't have to be just stuff offensive to women), then yep. If there are rules for the site against such and folks break them, the site should take action. I'd note that the pejoritives "rape/whore/slut" don't have to apply just to women.

Second set.

Quote:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Depends. What are you frustrated about? Dinner five minutes late? Your partner going outside the relationship and bringing back an STD?

Quote:
Throwing keys at your partner

Depends. "Take your keys and get out, you son-of-a-bitch"? "Toss me my keys, honey"?

Quote:
Making fun of your partner's cooking

Depends. Madame and I make fun of each others cooking all the time. We also praise it. Depends on the intent. If it's to hurt, that'd be abusive.

Quote:
Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Depends. Once again depends on intent. A really concerned "Sweetheart, you're getting a bit heavy, and I'm worried about your health" is different from an abusive "Look at you, you fat cow."

Quote:
Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Depends on why. Are you concerned about their wellbeing, or about controlling what they do and who they see?

Quote:
Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Depends on if it's only one partner who has to account for spending, or both. Might have a partner with an actual money management problem that threatens household finances. Keeping up with their spending would seem prudent in that case.

Quote:
Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them.

Depends (but you knew that). Sometimes family and friends who don't like you or your partner can be poisonous to a relationship. Sometimes the only option, if you value that relationship, is to cut them off.

That being said, cutting off family and friends to monopolize your partner's time, or to keep them from having an out from an abusive relationship...

So, generally, acts done with an intent to hurt or control someone in a relationship could generally be considered abusive. Of course, this could mean that in some relationships, both parties are abusive.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 11:53 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO- FWIW, the jokes made me cringe.

I think the second one was worse. The first one was laughably absurd. The second one only just gets away with it because it's vague enough - if it had mentioned 14 yo girls or used the word 'rape' for example...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 12:06 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

I think all of those can be abusive but aren't necessarily. Someone who does a few of these things regularly is probably bad news.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 12:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

All, save for the first one, are actions directed towards another. Walls can be punched out of frustration for a number of reasons, none of which has to do w/ being abusive or directed at someone else. Unless, of course, that individual is standing between the puncher and the wall...

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:21 PM

Thank you for responding, these are my views.

Basically, that people who use violent, demeaning, controlling or abusive behaviours need to take 100% ownership of their behaviours. They have chosen to use those behaviours because they think that they are entitled to do so in intimate relationships. They do so because they get want they want that way, be it sex, compliance, fear.

Perpetrators will often say they are unable to control themselves. My response to that is 'you are a walking liability then, you need to get help until you ARE able to control your behaviour.' Adults need to be able to manage their own behabviour. It's part of the definition of being an adult.

Victim blaming is one of the major ways that perpetrators and their supporters shift blame from the person who really should be taking the blame/responsibility.

Entering into victim blaming discussons, along with tolerance of things like rape jokes/language/threats is how the culture of violence, particularly violence towards women is perpetuated. This is the kind of behaviours that men in particular need to be aware of.

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Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

All of these behaviours fit into the controlling/abusive category. The more ticks on this list, the worse it is, obviously. If you do all/most or they are being done to you, then the relationship is definitely an abusive one.

People who use abusive behaviours such as these sometimes are unaware that they are abusive, and likewise with the victim. People think abuse and think of heads being pounded into walls, but there are many, many other behaviours which have a similar impact on the impact of creating an environment of fear and powerlessness.

Many victims say the emotional/psychological abuse is by far the worst because it is invisible often to others who may see the abuser as a 'really decent guy'

Abusive behaviours systematically wear down a victim, and often many of these behaviours go hand in hand and escalate as time goes on. Wanting to know where someone is at all times because you care about what might happen to them might seem cute and chivalrous in the beginning of a relationship, but will not seem that way if every second of the day has to be accounted for.

And as for punching the wall, it's an act of aggression, and can be as frightening as a threat.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 9:25 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Which of the following behaviours would you consider abusive?

Punching a wall in frustration

Throwing keys at your partner

Making fun of your partner's cooking

Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance

Needing to know where your partner is at all times

Making your partner account for every cent of spending

Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them

All of these behaviours fit into the controlling/abusive category. The more ticks on this list, the worse it is, obviously. If you do all/most or they are being done to you, then the relationship is definitely an abusive one.

I think that's too great a generalization.

Any of these things could be abusive, depending on the circumstances and the attitude of the person taking the action. Then again, in different circumstances, they may be not abusive at all, and sometimes even caring. Some of them - punching a wall in frustration - could even be a reaction to abuse.

For example, as noted above, Madame Geezer and I sometimes criticize each other's cooking, but certainly not in an abusive way.

I'm afraid this is heading in the direction I expected. Labeling some actions - completely without any context as to a particular situation - as always abusive is a blame game that ends up often blaming the blameless.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 10:24 AM

Abuse is a complicated situation. Sometimes the victims of abuse themselves become abusers right back.

Perhaps the biggest determination of whether something is abuse is if the person subject to it feels it is abuse. But there is subjectivity and relativity in that too - some people are predisposed to whine and play the victim when they might not be and create codependent relationships, and some people may not recognize abuse where everyone else does (like when "he promised to stop hitting me because he loves me").

And sometimes, abuse is abuse.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I think that's too great a generalization.

Any of these things could be abusive, depending on the circumstances and the attitude of the person taking the action. Then again, in different circumstances, they may be not abusive at all, and sometimes even caring. Some of them - punching a wall in frustration - could even be a reaction to abuse.

For example, as noted above, Madame Geezer and I sometimes criticize each other's cooking, but certainly not in an abusive way.

I'm afraid this is heading in the direction I expected. Labeling some actions - completely without any context as to a particular situation - as always abusive is a blame game that ends up often blaming the blameless.

If you are punching a wall in frustration, you are definitely being aggressive, regardless of what it is in response to. It probably isn't abusive if its solely your wall and no one else is around, but its still an act of aggression.

In any event, its a choice you make about how to demonstrate your anger.

When abusive behaviour is condoned by circumstance... that is saying under some circumstances the behaviour was acceptable, as you did, 'if your partner gave you an STD' you are actually entering into blame shifting, and this is an example of colluding with violence.

Abuse is usually a package of behaviours, sometimes including physical violence, sometimes not. Making fun of your partners cooking may not be on the high end of the scale, but it is demeaning behaviour ultimately. If done in conjunction with other behaviours which demean and belittle, and as I have said before, the more on the list the more abusive.

Sometimes a perpetrator will use the excuse that it was done in fun, because they cared, or more often, minimise the behaviour. Restraining, pushing, grabbing can be soft words for some very violent actions.

It's very possible for both partners to use abusive behaviour. It doesn't make it acceptable from either one, unless one of them is defending themselves. Unfortuanetly defence is also one of the greatest excuses for violence.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 11:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I'm afraid this is heading in the direction I expected. Labeling some actions - completely without any context as to a particular situation - as always abusive is a blame game that ends up often blaming the blameless.

No, you did that deliberately, Geezer, because of your own desire to create some accusation of a "blame game". The actions don't need context, we're all--or at least presumably we are--intelligent adults and understand what is being asked.

"Throwing keys at your partner" is not "tossing keys to your partner"

"Making fun of your partner's cooking" is not "joking about each other's cooking"

"Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance" is not "Being concerned about your partner's health"

"Needing to know where your partner is at all times" is not "being concerned for your partner's whereabouts and safety"

"Making your partner account for every cent of spending" is not "being cautious about spending"

"Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them" is not "one or both partners choosing to avoid poisonous relations"

You know all this, given you itemized these things yourself. The WORDING of the questions makes the intent of each question quite clear, and the context within which they were asked gives further clarification. You're the one who gave them alternative explanations, for some reason known only to you. There is no "blame game"; you just needed to answer the questions, as posed, honestly, not re-interpret them.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 2:05 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
If you are punching a wall in frustration, you are definitely being aggressive, regardless of what it is in response to. It probably isn't abusive if its solely your wall and no one else is around, but its still an act of aggression.

In any event, its a choice you make about how to demonstrate your anger.

When abusive behaviour is condoned by circumstance... that is saying under some circumstances the behaviour was acceptable, as you did, 'if your partner gave you an STD' you are actually entering into blame shifting, and this is an example of colluding with violence.

So if your partner went outside your relationship and brought you home an STD, wouldn't you be angry? What would your response be? Might you hit a wall in frustration when no one was around?

Quote:
Abuse is usually a package of behaviours, sometimes including physical violence, sometimes not. Making fun of your partners cooking may not be on the high end of the scale, but it is demeaning behaviour ultimately. If done in conjunction with other behaviours which demean and belittle, and as I have said before, the more on the list the more abusive.

So teasing your partner would be abuse? You never tease your partner? If you have kids, do you ever tease them?

Quote:
Sometimes a perpetrator will use the excuse that it was done in fun, because they cared, or more often, minimise the behaviour.

So teasing your partner could never actually be fun for both of you, if you know what's going on?

Yep. Knew this was coming.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 2:22 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:No, you did that deliberately, Geezer, because of your own desire to create some accusation of a "blame game". The actions don't need context, we're all--or at least presumably we are--intelligent adults and understand what is being asked.

"Throwing keys at your partner" is not "tossing keys to your partner"

It is to me. Maybe you only throw keys with intent to injure, but I sure don't.

Quote:
"Making fun of your partner's cooking" is not "joking about each other's cooking"

It can be. It is in my house.

Quote:
"Making disparaging comments about your partner's weight/appearance" is not "Being concerned about your partner's health"

Who are you to say? Maybe sometimes that's the only way to get through to someone when you're concerned about their health.

Quote:
"Needing to know where your partner is at all times" is not "being concerned for your partner's whereabouts and safety"

Why not?

Quote:
"Making your partner account for every cent of spending" is not "being cautious about spending"

If your partner is spending out of control and running your family into bankruptcy, knowing what they're spending and trying to get a reasonable spending plan in place seems reasonable.

Quote:
"Disliking your partner's family and or friends to the point where you encourage him or her to no longer see them" is not "one or both partners choosing to avoid poisonous relations"

You don't read Ask Amy much, do you?

Quote:
You know all this, given you itemized these things yourself. The WORDING of the questions makes the intent of each question quite clear, and the context within which they were asked gives further clarification. You're the one who gave them alternative explanations, for some reason known only to you. There is no "blame game"; you just needed to answer the questions, as posed, honestly, not re-interpret them.

I answered in the context of "Do these actions constitute abuse"? I still say it depends on the intent of the action. Pretty much any action - from failing to open a door to failing to acknowledge a gift to forgetting an anniversary - can be abusive, if the intent is there. Or it can just be carelessness or forgetfulness.

So, Frem. See why I was leery of playing this game?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 2:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So teasing your partner would be abuse? YES

You never tease your partner? NO

If you have kids, do you ever tease them? NO

So teasing your partner could never actually be fun for both of you, if you know what's going on? NO - teasing is aggression with camo tacked on.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 4:09 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

'Might you hit a wall in frustration when no one else was around?'
Stop re-interpreting the question Geezer. Yes, very clever, it depends on context - but don't play word games and find reasons to disagree just for the sake of it, this is an issue people care about.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, August 11, 2013 7:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So if your partner went outside your relationship and brought you home an STD, wouldn't you be angry? What would your response be? Might you hit a wall in frustration when no one was around?

If I did, I would be acting out my anger in an aggressive way and I would have to accept that fact.

Let me put it to you another way, if you were demoted at work, would you hit the wall at work in anger? What would be the consequence if you did? Would it be considered acceptable work behaviour?

Anger is an emotion, btw, not a behaviour.

As for the rest of your post, I think you have consistently missed the parts where I have talked about abuse being a series of behaviours. I'm not going to continue to say the same thing just because you don't read properly.

Quote:

Yep. Knew this was coming.

What was coming? That having taken a contrary position, you would get further disagreement. Yeah, that one's a no brainer.

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Monday, August 12, 2013 1:33 AM