REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Don’t blame climate change for extreme weather

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Saturday, September 21, 2013 08:52
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Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

One of the most persistent claims in the climate debate is that global warming leads to more extreme weather. Green groups and even such respectable outlets as Scientific American declare that “extreme weather is a product of climate change.”

And the meme seems irresistible as a political shortcut to action. President Obama has explicitly linked a warming climate to “more extreme droughts, floods, wildfires and hurricanes.” The White House warned this summer of “increasingly frequent and severe extreme weather events that come with climate change.”


Yet this is not supported by science. “General statements about extremes are almost nowhere to be found in the literature but seem to abound in the popular media,” climate scientist Gavin Schmidt of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies said last month. “It’s this popular perception that global warming means all extremes have to increase all the time, even though if anyone thinks about that for 10?seconds they realize that’s nonsense.”

Global warming is real. It is partly man-made. It will make some things worse and some things better. Overall, the long-run impact will be negative. But some of the most prominent examples of extreme weather are misleading, and some weather events are becoming less extreme.

The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) delivered a 600-page reporton extreme weather in 2011. It got little attention — because it is nuanced.

Global warming, in general, will mean higher temperatures. This causes more heat waves — more extreme weather. But it also causes fewer cold waves — less extreme weather. Many more people die from excessive cold than excessive heat, so fewer people will die from cold and heat in the future. By mid-century, researchers estimated in 2006, that means about 1.4?million fewer deaths per year. In the continental United States, heat waves in the past decade exceeded the norm by 10 percent, but the number of cold waves fell 75 percent.

Moreover, global warming will mostly increase temperatures during winter, at night and in cold places, making temperature differences less extreme.

Global warming will also cause more heavy rain; this is clearly more extreme. But warming will also help alleviate water scarcity — less extreme. About 1.2 billion fewer people are expected to live with water scarcity by the end of the century because of increased precipitation.

Drought is expected to increase in some regions while decreasing in others. Overall, the impact will probably be slightly more extreme. Likewise, sea levels will rise, which will mean more flooding of coastal structures — more extreme weather. The total impact is likely to be less than 0.1 percent of global economic output.

Hurricane wind speeds are likely to increase (more extreme), but the number of hurricanes is likely to decrease or hold steady (less extreme). The number of extra-tropical cyclones is likely to decline (less extreme).

Obama’s examples of more extreme weather from droughts, floods, wildfires and hurricanes are weak examples for the United States. Wildfire may be the only one of these indicators that is increasing in the United States, but to a large degree this is because fire suppression efforts have resulted in more material being available to burn.

The IPCC found that “droughts have become less frequent, less intense, or shorter, for example, in central North America.” A scientific overview published in June in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Societyfound that the severe drought of 2012, which at one point covered 39?percent of the United States, was still much less extreme than droughts in the 1930s (which covered 63 percent) and the 1950s (50 percent). And all those droughts pale next to the six-decade mega-drought in what is now the U.S. West in the 12th century.

Damage from flooding in the United States has declined from 0.2 percent of gross domestic product in 1940 to less than 0.05 percent today. And U.S. hurricanes have not increased in frequency, intensity or normalized damage since at least 1900. It has been more than seven years since the United States was hit by a Category 3 or stronger hurricane. That is the longest such hurricane drought since 1900.

A new paper in the journal Nature shows on a crucial measure that there is no increase in extremes. Looking at temperature variability as one kind of extreme weather, the authors document that extreme weather globally has been constant since 1960. Moreover, the researchers found that extreme weather as temperature variability will decline in the future with higher levels of carbon dioxide. They laconically conclude: “Our findings contradict the view that a warming world will automatically be one of more overall climatic variation.”

It is understandable that a lot of well-meaning people, wanting stronger action on global warming, have tried to use the meme of extreme weather to draw attention. But alarmism and panic are rarely the best way to achieve good policies. The argument that global warming generally creates more extreme weather needs to be retired.

Bjørn Lomborg, an adjunct professor at the Copenhagen Business School, directs the Copenhagen Consensus Center. He is the author of “The Skeptical Environmentalist,” “Cool It” and, most recently, “How Much Have Global Problems Cost the World? A Scorecard From 1900 to 2050.”




http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bjorn-lomborg-dont-blame-climat
e-change-for-extreme-weather/2013/09/13/4b770d48-117e-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 10:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



As one who watches the weather a fair bit, I can't help but notice, 8 years after Katrina, the # of hurricanes and strong ones to make landfall here in the US have been way down.

The exact opposite of what AlGore and the AGW folks were predicting.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 11:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You haven't noticed either the extreme (100-year) floods that swamped the Midwest, followed by the xtreme drought (which still persists in Texas), Superstorm Sandy, or the extreme floods in Colorado? Huh. Pretty narrow focus you got there.

From a layperson's POV, I think the following can be generally expected:

Higher, and increasing, global average temperatures. That stands to reason but what that means bears repeating, since some people (AHEM!) seem to forget. That doesn't mean that Juno was hotter than California this past August, or that Atlanta had an unusually wet and cool spring. When looking at average global temperatures, you have to take into account tempratures at Dalien (China), Sao Paulo, and other places around the globe. No fair picking and choosing, your assessement needs to be representative of the world as a whole. FWIW, 2012 was one of the hottest 10 years on record. Since central and northern China had a crazy hot spell, and it was huge in terms of area, that will be reflected in the 2013 average- which of course won't be calculated until 2014. Heating will take place more at the poles. IF you lived further north, you'd definitely notice.
http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/07/global-temperature-trend-update-july
-201



Rapidly melting glaciers, sea ice, ice shields, and permafrost. While average global temperatures didn't rise as much as modeled in the past ten years, ice melt has advanced far, far faster- on the order of 3-10X faster- than the models predicted. (Used to be that modelers predicted the first polar ice-free summer to be in 2050. Then 2025. Now it looks more like 2014.) While scientists are coming up with complex explanations about the temperature lag, the observer in me says the two are related: faster-melting ice will keep temperatures cooler as long as the ice persists.

Glaciers before and after


Polar ice at end of summer, today and historic


What the satellite pictures don't show is that today's ice is far thinner than historic ... now thin enough to punch a submarine thru... so that the volume (length X width X height) is even less than before. So despite the so-called "increase" is sea ice in 2013, the actual volume may be ultimately measured to be quite a bit less. Unfortunately, this kind of observation is too complex for deniers to even think about.
Quote:

The volume of sea ice in the Arctic hit a new low this past winter, according to observations from the European Space Agency's (Esa) Cryosat mission. During March/April - the time of year when marine floes are at their thickest - the radar spacecraft recorded just under 15,000 cu km of ice. In its three years of full operations, Cryosat has witnessed a continuing shrinkage of winter ice volume.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23964372

Less snow, more rain, and more drought. As water temperature increases, you can expect to see more vapor lofted into the air. However, with overall increasing temperatures, there will be warmer snow (yes, such is possible), faster-melting snow, and more rain. Except when there will be no rain at all, since...

The jet stream will slow down and "precess" less, so weather patterns that could have been predicted to move along in a few days will persist for weeks. Which could mean weeks of rain, or weeks of no rain.

More forest fires. While PEOPLE... with air conditioning and a insulated lifestyle... may be in denial of climate change, vegetation and animals are not. In general, plants are moving uphill and northward. Bud break is two weeks earlier than in decades past. Bugs are surviving the winters, breaking dormancy, and breeding more. Drought-stressed biomes are dying from previously surviveable diseases and pests.





More and larger oceanic dead zones, loss of valuable cold-water fish and coral reefs, and increasing jellyfish outbreaks and red tides. Increasing temperatures speed the overgrowth of algae, drive out whatever oxygen is in the water, and kill coral, fish, crabs, shrimp, and other bottom dwellers. Let's get used to eating jellyfish- there'll be a bumper crop.


http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/education-and-outreach/additional/scienc
e-focus/ocean-color/science_focus.shtml/dead_zones.shtml



It's the death of large swaths of wild land and the huge forest fires, ice melt, biome migration, coral reef deaths and the increase in red tides and jellyfish - more than a set of temperatures - that point out to me that the earth's temperature really is changing. You don't get these kinds of changes from short-term events- you really have to drive a system over the long term in order to move trees and coral reefs and glaciers.

Climate change is not so much about saving the earth as it is recognizing that our quality of life depends on not degrading the resources that we depend on.

The USA has depended on its midwestern food supply as a reliable item for trade. Also, it seems to me that any nation that can't ensure it's own food will always be at the whim of nature and international politics. But looking at how the midwestern production was totally battered by a record drought last year (despite the previous year's record floods) it seems to me that the USA won't be a winner in a warming world. The big beneficiaries will be Russia and Canada.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:26 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You haven't noticed either the extreme (100-year) floods that swamped the Midwest, followed by the xtreme drought (which still persists in Texas), Superstorm Sandy, or the extreme floods in Colorado? Huh. Pretty narrow focus you got there.

From a layperson's POV, I think the following can be generally expected:

Higher, and increasing, global average temperatures. That stands to reason but what that means bears repeating, since some people (AHEM!) seem to forget. That doesn't mean that Juno was hotter than California this past August, or that Atlanta had an unusually wet and cool spring. When looking at average global temperatures, you have to take into account tempratures at Dalien (China), Sao Paulo, and other places around the globe. No fair picking and choosing, your assessement needs to be representative of the world as a whole.



So no picking and choosing "...the extreme (100-year) floods that swamped the Midwest, followed by the xtreme drought (which still persists in Texas), Superstorm Sandy, or the extreme floods in Colorado..."?

How about showing data instead of anonymous pictures of glaciers or forests. What you're doing is pretty much what Prof. Lomborg is writing about.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 3:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

You haven't noticed either the extreme (100-year) floods that swamped the Midwest, followed by the xtreme drought (which still persists in Texas), Superstorm Sandy, or the extreme floods in Colorado? Huh. Pretty narrow focus you got there.



Noticed? Sure. What of it ?

It's pretty much how our planet works.

It's funny, because YOU'RE the one looking at the big picture through the cardboard tube, Sig.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 3:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rappy, the difference is that the events are bigger, more extreme than in recorded history. Now, "recorded history" is a pretty short timeframe, but there are events occuring which are remarkable even in a geologic timeframe. So IMHO your view is so limited as to be useless.

Geezer, I think we have evoked a number of processes that are JUST NOW accelerating, such as increasing the absorption of energy at the poles. One of those evoked proceeses is the slowing jetstream, a heretofore unanticipated mechanism. It will guarantee that weather events will be longer-lasting. The jet stream hasn't actually slowed until recently, so past data will probably not be relevant to future events.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 4:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sig - YOUR view is so limited as to be completely useless.

They're not bigger events. They're just getting more attention by the agenda driven media.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 5:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


No, they're not. You're just not keeping up with real news. Flooding on the Russian-Chinese border, in the Amur River drainage basin, was about 1200 miles long and 800 miles wide... that would be like a flood that covers the USA from the Canadian border to Mexico, and across all of the plains states. It is truly record-breaking. Just because you've got your head stuck in some tiny, parochial space doesn't mean there isn't a bigger world out there. Look it up.

Just before that, China suffered a record-breaking drought. All of the wells dried up. Sorry for your loss of brainspace. I've wasted enough time on you for one week.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 5:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


*laugh track *

Sig, there's always some record breaking this or that in the weather. Seriously, quit your whining.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:59 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, they're not. You're just not keeping up with real news. Flooding on the Russian-Chinese border, in the Amur River drainage basin, was about 1200 miles long and 800 miles wide... that would be like a flood that covers the USA from the Canadian border to Mexico, and across all of the plains states. It is truly record-breaking. Just because you've got your head stuck in some tiny, parochial space doesn't mean there isn't a bigger world out there. Look it up.

Just before that, China suffered a record-breaking drought. All of the wells dried up. Sorry for your loss of brainspace. I've wasted enough time on you for one week.



No fair picking and choosing? Provide world-wide data, not anecdotal evidence.

And as noted before, what you gonna do about it? unless you can get China (and to a lesser extent, India) to greatly reduce carbon emissions, whatever is going to happen due to climate change is gonna happen. Shouldn't we prepare for that, instead of trying to hold back the tide of climate change?

ETA: As noted before, it doesn't really give me any satisfaction to realize that we're screwed as relates to climate change, since it's pretty much out of our (America's) hands. I wish it were otherwise, since I believe that the U.S. could reduce emissions, as we've held them pretty much steady for the past several years, despite a growing population.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 10:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


China is seeking sources of natural gas to replace coal plants. (That will be thru Kyrgystan.) The central committee will require that the actual number of motor vehicles will decrease by a few million by 2015. They're building inter-regional ultra-high voltage DC lines (UHVDC) to carry power from areas of natural generation- wind and hydro- to areas of consumption. Their solar panel manufacturing far exceeds ours, as does their wind power.

In fact, this year China agreed to carbon targets by 2016. Overall, China is doing more than we are to reduce carbon emissions while maintaining 7-10% growth, instead of experiencing passive reduction through manufacturing collapse.

So stop obsessing about China. What about doing what WE can do... since our energy waste is so much higher. We can put more pressure on China if we're talking from an honest position, instead of our usual hypocrisy.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 9:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
China is seeking sources of natural gas to replace coal plants. (That will be thru Kyrgystan.) The central committee will require that the actual number of motor vehicles will decrease by a few million by 2015. They're building inter-regional ultra-high voltage DC lines (UHVDC) to carry power from areas of natural generation- wind and hydro- to areas of consumption. Their solar panel manufacturing far exceeds ours, as does their wind power.

In fact, this year China agreed to carbon targets by 2016. Overall, China is doing more than we are to reduce carbon emissions while maintaining 7-10% growth, instead of experiencing passive reduction through manufacturing collapse.

So stop obsessing about China. What about doing what WE can do... since our energy waste is so much higher. We can put more pressure on China if we're talking from an honest position, instead of our usual hypocrisy.



Nice talk, but per CDIAC data, China is still increasing carbon emissions by around 7% a year. At that rate, by 2016, when they promise to cap their emissions, it'll be around 3 billion metric tons a year. The U.S. is holding flat or slightly decreasing, depending on who's data you use, and will be around 1.5 billion metric tons. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/CO2_Emission/timeseries/national

Also, as noted here

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/03/china-to-exceed-planned-carbon-di
oxide-emissions
/

and here

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/oct/06/china-carbon-emissi
on-forecasts-economy


China has a history of promising carbon reductions it can't meet.


And as I've repeated until I'm blue in the face, I have no problem with the U.S. reducing carbon emissions, conserving energy, and developing renewable energy sources. It'd be good for the economy and the local environment. I just don't see our reductions overcoming the increases in the rest of the world.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Nice talk, but per CDIAC data, China is still increasing carbon emissions by around 7% a year. At that rate, by 2016, when they promise to cap their emissions, it'll be around 3 billion metric tons a year. The U.S. is holding flat or slightly decreasing, depending on who's data you use, and will be around 1.5 billion metric tons. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/CO2_Emission/timeseries/national


So the US is a much higher polluter per capita - the highest, in fact. There's definitely a lot the US can do. China's emissions are also more defensible in that they are on the back of economic growth that has, and is, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.

Quote:

And as noted before, what you gonna do about it? unless you can get China (and to a lesser extent, India) to greatly reduce carbon emissions

You say this like it's an impossible thing. A global deal is needed, including all major economies. But the US has not signed up to such deals in the past, so people in China are India are making your exact same argument about America Geezer - 'We're not making any deal unless America signs up to it'. What's needed is some global leadership - something the US has balked at on this issue.

Quote:

Shouldn't we prepare for that, instead of trying to hold back the tide of climate change?

Do both! And remember that it will be much cheaper to try to avert climate change NOW than to try to deal with it when it happens.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:49 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

You say this like it's an impossible thing.



Its far easier to say it's someone else's problem, and wash one's hands of it, than actually try and contribute to a solution.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:30 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
So the US is a much higher polluter per capita - the highest, in fact. There's definitely a lot the US can do. China's emissions are also more defensible in that they are on the back of economic growth that has, and is, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.



But the biosphere doesn't care about per capita or if emissions are 'defensible'. It cares about total emissions. By 2016, China looks to be producing 3 billion tonnes a year, twice as much as the U.S. Even if the U.S. were to cut carbon emissions in half, to 750 million tonnes, That's just the amount of China's probable increase in yearly emissions between 2010 (2.25 billion tonnes) and 2016.

Quote:

You say this like it's an impossible thing. A global deal is needed, including all major economies. But the US has not signed up to such deals in the past, so people in China are India are making your exact same argument about America Geezer - 'We're not making any deal unless America signs up to it'. What's needed is some global leadership - something the US has balked at on this issue.


As noted above, the U.S. has held steady or decreased carbon emissions - depending on who you ask - since the mid-1990s. Other countries have signed on to these deals, and then broken them. I noted examples of China's failure to keep their commitments above.

Quote:

Do both! And remember that it will be much cheaper to try to avert climate change NOW than to try to deal with it when it happens.



In a world of unlimited resources, maybe. That's not the one we're in. Until I see China and India actually reducing their emissions, my money's on us having to deal with the effects of climate change, rather than preventing it.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's very cold in space.

We're probably saving humanity by notching up the planets temp a bit.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:15 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Yes China's emissions are high and projected to rise. That's one of the reasons why a global deal is urgent. The developing world reins in their emissions and the developed world cuts theirs.

No, the US keeping its emissions steady at a rate higher than everyone else is not good enough. And there is more to that fact than goodwill to fight climate change, and no guarantee that it will continue. A global deal and binding targets are what is needed. We can't have every country doing as much as it feels like to cut emissions.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Yes China's emissions are high and projected to rise. That's one of the reasons why a global deal is urgent. The developing world reins in their emissions and the developed world cuts theirs.

No, the US keeping its emissions steady at a rate higher than everyone else is not good enough. And there is more to that fact than goodwill to fight climate change, and no guarantee that it will continue. A global deal and binding targets are what is needed. We can't have every country doing as much as it feels like to cut emissions.



And for what seems like the millionth time, I'd love to see the U.S. reduce greenhouse gas emissions, develop the use of renewables, and reduce energy usage. But that by itself will not stop the increase in carbon emissions from the developing world. At best that'll slow the rate of increase.

Europe has already cut emissions by 30% since 1980, so they don't have much left to cut.

In the same time period (1980-2010), Latin America has doubled their emissions, China's has gone up 5.5 times, and India 5.75 times. all these regions and countries have increased emissions every year since 1980.

I don't see China or India, with their populations clamoring for a better life, telling them that they can't have the electricity and gasoline to run it. Not to mention folks in Latin America and Africa, who will be wanting better for themselves as well.

As I've asked others, if you can give me a workable, real-life, scenario of a deal that would get China, India, etc. to stop increasing emissions right now, I'd be happy to see it. Just saying we need a deal doesn't make it so.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, September 18, 2013 1:46 PM

STORYMARK


For the millionth time, not everyone is comfortable with "It's hard, why bother?"




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, September 18, 2013 1:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


How about " it's not real, we've got better things on which to focus our efforts ? "



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 19, 2013 8:38 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


For the thousandth time, it's not good enough for every country to do as much as it feels like, without signing up to any sort of binding deal.

Any sort of deal would of course use carbon credits or some such, to put an international price on carbon and make it uneconomical to emit. This would boost green technologies and make them more affordable. And it would avert climate change at a fraction of the cost of the damage climate change would do.

It would be in China and India's interest to have this deal - albeit not in the short term. It would be a tough sell in those two countries for that reason, and maybe they would refuse. One thing is certain: if the US doesn't sign up, those two countries won't come on board. So the first and possibly key hurdle to a deal is the US.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 19, 2013 8:59 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
For the thousandth time, it's not good enough for every country to do as much as it feels like, without signing up to any sort of binding deal.



This assumes that countries that need large increases in energy to develop would agree to such deals. Any evidence that China, India, Latin America, and Africa would sign on to such a deal?

Quote:

Any sort of deal would of course use carbon credits or some such, to put an international price on carbon and make it uneconomical to emit. This would boost green technologies and make them more affordable. And it would avert climate change at a fraction of the cost of the damage climate change would do.


Any evidence that China, India, Latin America, and Africa are willing to commit money to green technoligies, which are currently quite a bit more expensive that burning coal, wood, petroleum, etc.? Any proof that this would actually be a fraction of the cost of preparing for climate change?

Quote:

It would be in China and India's interest to have this deal - albeit not in the short term. It would be a tough sell in those two countries for that reason, and maybe they would refuse. One thing is certain: if the US doesn't sign up, those two countries won't come on board. So the first and possibly key hurdle to a deal is the US.


The U.S., despite not signing on to your "Deal", has started decreasing both its total emissions and emissions per capita. Is there any particular decrease you want? Should Canada and Australia, which have just a bit less than the emissions per capita of the U.S. also have to sign on?

Just out of curiosity, if you live in the U.S, how do you feel about having the same standard of living as the average person in China, India, Latin America or Africa?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, September 20, 2013 12:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I would like the USA to reduce it's carbon emissions by 50%, compared to 2008. It's very do-able, we just refuse to do it.

AFA China's emissions growing at 7% per year... considering that their economy was growing at an average of 10% per year (as high as 13%. For them, it's a "slowdown" at 7%.) they're managed to grow their economy without a proportionate increase in carbon emissions. That tells me that they're working pretty hard to improve their energy efficiency. The other thing about China is... they're not going to grow their energy use indefinitely. Their energy use is tightly linked to the economic policy, and their economic policy has been focused on "growth" to maintain employment, but already they're trying stop being an export nation (which imports a lot of the world's carbon usage to the Chinese manufacturing sector) so I think they may be reaching the point where they don't feel the need to manufacture so intensively.

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Saturday, September 21, 2013 8:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I would like the USA to reduce it's carbon emissions by 50%, compared to 2008. It's very do-able, we just refuse to do it.



You make it sound like we're just petulant children, refusing to reduce carbon emissions just for spite.

Reducing emissions by 50% is going to be difficult and expensive, not just for businesse and government but for everyone who uses energy. It's also going to take quite a while, since much of the technology is currently in the laboratory stage. I also suspect that any politician who proposed the changes needed to implement such a reduction would be out the next election.


Like in Norway:

Quote:

The outgoing government in Norway has buried much-vaunted plans to capture carbon dioxide and store it underground amid mounting costs and delays.

The oil and energy ministry said the development of full-scale carbon dioxide capture at Mongstad oil refinery had been discontinued.

It said it remained committed to research into carbon capture.

When the Labour Party presented the plan in 2007, it was hailed as Norway's equivalent of a "Moon landing".

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and his allies lost a general election to conservatives and centrists this month, and are due to step down shortly.

Mongstad had already run into difficulties.

"At both the national and international level, the development of technologies to capture and store CO2 has taken longer, been more difficult and more costly than expected," Oil and Energy Minister Ola Borten Moe told reporters.

The process was patented back in the 1930s, and it is reckoned to be one of the most important technologies available for tackling greenhouse gas emissions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24183443

Reduction of a couple of percent a year should be doable, as that's pretty much what's going on now, but much more is gonna be a hard sell.

Quote:

AFA China's emissions growing at 7% per year... considering that their economy was growing at an average of 10% per year (as high as 13%. For them, it's a "slowdown" at 7%.) they're managed to grow their economy without a proportionate increase in carbon emissions.


Yet they've increased their carbon emissions 5.5 times in the last 30 years.

And you really can't forget India. Their current emissions are about what China's were in 1985, and are following China's rate of increase pretty closely. In another thread, I noted that India figures it will triple emissions by 2030, which will put it in second place, behind China.

I'm really not happy with these figures, but I believe they're mostly correct. And I'm not as sure as you that if we just set a good example, China, India and everyone else will be able to convince their people to give up a better life so someone 100 years from now doesn't have to leave their beachfront home.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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