REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Saturday, November 16, 2013 13:40
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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

DINA CAPPIELLO
Associated Press

CORYDON, Iowa (AP) -- The hills of southern Iowa bear the scars of America's push for green energy: The brown gashes where rain has washed away the soil. The polluted streams that dump fertilizer into the water supply.

Even the cemetery that disappeared like an apparition into a cornfield.

It wasn't supposed to be this way.

With the Iowa political caucuses on the horizon in 2007, presidential candidate Barack Obama made homegrown corn a centerpiece of his plan to slow global warming. And when President George W. Bush signed a law that year requiring oil companies to add billions of gallons of ethanol to their gasoline each year, Bush predicted it would make the country "stronger, cleaner and more secure."

But the ethanol era has proven far more damaging to the environment than politicians promised and much worse than the government admits today.

As farmers rushed to find new places to plant corn, they wiped out millions of acres of conservation land, destroyed habitat and polluted water supplies, an Associated Press investigation found.

Five million acres of land set aside for conservation -- more than Yellowstone, Everglades and Yosemite National Parks combined -- have vanished on Obama's watch.

Landowners filled in wetlands. They plowed into pristine prairies, releasing carbon dioxide that had been locked in the soil.

Sprayers pumped out billions of pounds of fertilizer, some of which seeped into drinking water, contaminated rivers and worsened the huge dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico where marine life can't survive.

The consequences are so severe that environmentalists and many scientists have now rejected corn-based ethanol as bad environmental policy. But the Obama administration stands by it, highlighting its benefits to the farming industry rather than any negative impact.

Farmers planted 15 million more acres of corn last year than before the ethanol boom, and the effects are visible in places like south central Iowa.

The hilly, once-grassy landscape is made up of fragile soil that, unlike the earth in the rest of the state, is poorly suited for corn. Nevertheless, it has yielded to America's demand for it.

"They're raping the land," said Bill Alley, a member of the board of supervisors in Wayne County, which now bears little resemblance to the rolling cow pastures shown in postcards sold at a Corydon pharmacy.

All energy comes at a cost. The environmental consequences of drilling for oil and natural gas are well documented and severe. But in the president's push to reduce greenhouse gases and curtail global warming, his administration has allowed so-called green energy to do not-so-green things.

In some cases, such as its decision to allow wind farms to kill eagles, the administration accepts environmental costs because they pale in comparison to the havoc it believes global warming could ultimately cause.

Ethanol is different.

The government's predictions of the benefits have proven so inaccurate that independent scientists question whether it will ever achieve its central environmental goal: reducing greenhouse gases. That makes the hidden costs even more significant.

"This is an ecological disaster," said Craig Cox with the Environmental Working Group, a natural ally of the president that, like others, now finds itself at odds with the White House.

But it's a cost the administration is willing to accept. It believes supporting corn ethanol is the best way to encourage the development of biofuels that will someday be cleaner and greener than today's. Pulling the plug on corn ethanol, officials fear, might mean killing any hope of these next-generation fuels.

"That is what you give up if you don't recognize that renewable fuels have some place here," EPA administrator Gina McCarthy said in a recent interview with AP. "All renewable fuels are not corn ethanol."

Still, corn supplies the overwhelming majority of ethanol in the United States, and the administration is loath to discuss the environmental consequences.

"It just caught us completely off guard," said Doug Davenport, a Department of Agriculture official who encourages southern Iowa farmers to use conservation practices on their land. Despite those efforts, Davenport said he was surprised at how much fragile, erodible land was turned into corn fields.

Shortly after Davenport spoke to The Associated Press, he got an email ordering him to stop talking.

"We just want to have a consistent message on the topic," an Agriculture Department spokesman in Iowa said.

That consistent message was laid out by Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, who spoke to ethanol lobbyists on Capitol Hill recently and said ethanol was good for business.

"We are committed to this industry because we understand its benefits," he said. "We understand it's about farm income. It's about stabilizing and maintaining farm income which is at record levels."



Continued at http://www.wtop.com/?nid=289&sid=3497726&pid=0&page=1

Apparently the EPA wasn't too keen on ethanol, but the White House and Department of Agriculture pushed it through. Both the White House and Monsanto urged the EPA to increase corn yield estimates to make the corn-to-ethanol figures look economically and environmentally feasible.

Up to 7 million acres of land previously held in conservation easements have been plowed up to grow corn or soy for ethanol, only because the government requires ethanol be mixed into gasoline.


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Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:07 PM

OONJERAH



- ??? -
Environmentalists have complained for decades about 1. Our polluting
ways, & 2. Our government's refusal to be honest about it & adopt
cleaner ways. Obama's administration did One Green Thing, and now
he's bad for doin' it? Or maybe he's just bad for letting Big Ag be in
charge of it?

Quest for green energy damaging the environment again. Why am I
not surprised? This Ostrich didn't even know this was going on (mixed
up gas); thanks for the news.
Not sure whether I should be alarmed or relieved. Does wet-ethanol
gas mess up my olde '88 engine?

Energy ignoramus seeks enlightenment.

We not only want to, but we have to, go with renewable energy.
I am not a chemist or an engineer, so I don't know how.

What happened to the Electric car? It continues to develop?

Energy: Is there any truly clean energy? Solar, for instance?
Or does all energy production mess up something?

======================
A man's gotta know his legacy.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Ethanol from corn is a moronic,foolish idea. I don't care who promotes it, Bush, Obama, Cruz... paying off voters so they can get govt $ to grow corn is simply bad policy , every way you look at it.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"Ethanol from corn is a moronic,foolish idea. I don't care who promotes it, Bush, Obama, Cruz... paying off voters so they can get govt $ to grow corn is simply bad policy , every way you look at it."

Damn, there we go, agreeing again. And yup, Obama is as stupid about it as Bush was or any other politician WILL BE.

However, it just might be SLIGHTLY more honest about it if it weren't entitled "Obama's green power push", as it began with Bush...y'know?? Note "President George W. Bush signed a law that year requiring oil companies to add billions of gallons of ethanol to their gasoline each year..." Yeah, Geezer, we know you're non-partisan. Bullshit.

THEY WERE BOTH WRONG. As is ANYONE who pushes ethanol...we need better ways, not "it's YOUR fault!"


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Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
"Ethanol from corn is a moronic,foolish idea. I don't care who promotes it, Bush, Obama, Cruz... paying off voters so they can get govt $ to grow corn is simply bad policy , every way you look at it."

Damn, there we go, agreeing again. And yup, Obama is as stupid about it as Bush was or any other politician WILL BE.

However, it just might be SLIGHTLY more honest about it if it weren't entitled "Obama's green power push", as it began with Bush...y'know?? Note "President George W. Bush signed a law that year requiring oil companies to add billions of gallons of ethanol to their gasoline each year..." Yeah, Geezer, we know you're non-partisan. Bullshit.

THEY WERE BOTH WRONG. As is ANYONE who pushes ethanol...we need better ways, not "it's YOUR fault!"




So the Obama administration's orders to the EPA to overestimate the production per acre of corn to justify the economic benefit of ethanol was Bush's fault? Obama's speeches about ethanol production in corn growing states during the 2008 campaign were Bush's fault?

If it was a bad idea, which it obviously was, Obama should have shut it down, instead of pandering to the agricultural states for votes and the agribusinesses for campaign contributions.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"If it was a bad idea, which it obviously was, Obama should have shut it down, instead of pandering to the agricultural states for votes and the agribusinesses for campaign contributions."

And the oil companies for increaed profits. You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer.

But it's good for business, so why do YOU have a problem with it? Last time I looked you didn't care all that much about the environment, but you sure as hell cheerlead for business. So yeah, more of the same old crap from geezer, who can't admit that if it's a bad idea now under Obama, it was an equally bad idea then under Bush. But, we already knew that you're a hypocrite, geezer. You didn't have to go out of your way to prove it to us yet again.


As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies.

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Friday, November 15, 2013 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I was quite clear: "THEY WERE BOTH WRONG. As is ANYONE who pushes ethanol". That includes Jeb Bush
Quote:

Jeb Bush wrote to his brother in April, urging the president to implement "a comprehensive ethanol strategy for our country and our hemisphere."

Jeb Bush was already deep in talks with the Brazilian ethanol industry about a joint partnership. In December, he co-founded the Interamerican Ethanol Commission to promote regional production. Rodrigues, who gave President Bush the biofuels lecture, was a co-signer. http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/05/Worldandnation/Jeb_Bush_encouraged_b
.shtml



And John McCain, who was for it before he was against it before he was for it before...

Bush made inflated promises about ethanol out the ying-yang. He got "hot" on ethanol at the end of his Presidency, most believe in order to try and "soften" his pro-oil "legacy", and he was as dishonest about it as anyone. "Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman, who sought proposals a year ago for three "biorefineries" that would receive $160 million from the government, said he decided to more than double the grant program as a way to reach President Bush's goal of using 35 billion gallons a year of ethanol by 2017 — a fivefold increase over current requirements." If he was paying attention at all, Bush knew full well that was absurd, but he did it anyway.

The United States became the world's largest producer of ethanol fuel in 2005. Under the Bush administration, the U.S. poured enormous amounts of money into ethanol, from subsidies to farmers to research to sending our money out of the country. Cumulative ethanol subsidies between 2005 and 2009 were US$17 billion. Where were you guys then?

We can thank Bush--who I have no doubt knew better, but did it anyway--for jump starting the ethanol idiocy; we can thank Obama for stupidly continuing it. How you can blithely consider one of them any better or any worse is beyond comprehension, except what we comprehend where your allegiances lie and that you'll happily pull out a sentence here or there to scream "But Obama's WORSE!" It's ridiculous.

ETA: "You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer." They are SUBSIDIZED to do that, too, Kiki, as you know. Double your profit, double your rape...


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Friday, November 15, 2013 9:00 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
ETA: "You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer." They are SUBSIDIZED to do that, too, Kiki, as you know. Double your profit, double your rape...



Strange then that the oil industry is trying to get the government to reduce or eleminate the amount of ethanol they are required to add to gasoline.

Quote:

JEFF BRADY, BYLINE: Americans last year bought almost nine billion fewer gallons of gasoline than they did just five years earlier. More efficient cars get part of the credit. In 2007, Congress boosted something called the Renewable Fuel Standard, or RFS. It requires a set number of gallons of ethanol be mixed with gasoline, and it increases every year, even if demand for gas declines. These two factors have left the oil industry with a smaller share of what goes in your gas tank.

The industry wants the federal government to lower next year's ethanol mandate. And Bob Greco, with the American Petroleum Institute, says his industry wants more than just an annual waiver.

BOB GRECO: We can't run our industry, our refineries, on a year-to-year basis so we will need long-term certainty about this. So that's why we are urging Congress to revisit this and fix the RFS once and for all. Preferably repeal it.


http://www.wbur.org/npr/244826808


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 15, 2013 1:26 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Your logic is imperfect: When people are using less gas, of COURSE the oil industry wants to make the percentage of their product higher!

Also, the more demand for the actual oil they sell, the more oil leases they can get, among other things. Back then, oil prices were high, demand was high and imports climbing; that's changed. Corn ethanol also can't be transported by pipeline, so a higher percentage of oil means more pipelines, as well.

Big Oil never LIKED ethanol and fought hard against it, overtly and covertly. Ethanol happened despite their efforts, and they got bought off, to a degree, but now that the negatives have grown, of course they'll jump on the band wagon.


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Friday, November 15, 2013 2:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Corn-based ethanol is a bad idea, even though it was initiated by a Republican and carried forward by a Democrat. Just like the bank bailouts and free trade agreements, it seems like we never get so screwed over as when the Dems and Repubs agree.... because apparently they sink to the lowest common denominator ($$) rather than rising to the top.

Be that as it may... yes, corn-based ethanol is a bad idea. Corn is a fertilizer- intensive crop, so in addition to inducing horrible land-use changes, the fertilizer runoff is causing massive algal blooms in the Great Lakes and record-setting dead zones off America's coasts. Corn is also a beloved GMO, so agribusiness has its money-funnel sunk deeply into this crop. I posted about that already.

That being said, there will ALWAYS be something wrong with ANY of our energy production technologies: solar cells require using toxic chemicals and are just past the break-even point of providing more energy than they took to make; windmills kill birds, ruin the landscape and drive some nearby residents crazy with a subsonic hum; dams hurt fish migration and kill rivers downstream.

Out of all of these, what we need to to is CONSERVE A LOT MORE, and pick the least-polluting source for the remainder, because some sources really are worse than others. That means- not coal, not fracked natural gas (there IS natural gas besides fracked gas, tho), and not offshore drilling (because the spill results are catastrophic), not fracked oil, not nuclear.

We need to change land use: city planners need to make sure than high-population areas have walking-distance access at least to a meso-mart with the stuff that people buy/use on a daily basis: bread, milk, fruits, veggies, toilet paper, booze, basic OTCs, and an ATM. That will save a lot of one-time car-errands. Others with spare land could convert their lawns to growing food, which at least makes better use of the water and fertilizer than we're currently killing into our lawns, and reduces the need to truck food in from far away. Water conservation also save gas and energy (which is needed to pump and treat water and waste). Insulate old homes. Put in double=paned windows. Require much MUCH better mileage of cars. Create "land ferries" instead of 8-lane highways. Use recycled paper products.

Also, plant more trees and rehabilitate more landscape. Require parking lots to have one tree planted every 5 parking spaces.

The ideas are endless.

What are we waiting for?

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Friday, November 15, 2013 5:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Timing.

Quote:

In win for Big Oil, U.S. proposes biofuel mandate cut

BY TIMOTHY GARDNER

WASHINGTON Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:01pm EST

(Reuters) - The Obama administration proposed on Friday slashing federal requirements for U.S. biofuel use in 2014, bowing to pressure from the petroleum industry and attempting to prevent a projected fuel crunch next year.

The move was seen as a clear win for oil refiners and a loss for biofuel producers. It followed a prolonged lobbying blitz on both sides of the issue.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/15/us-usa-ethanol-idUSBRE9AE12F
20131115





*ETA - Gotta love the commentary of this NEWS piece, where it says Obama is bowing to 'pressure' from Big Oil.

Sure, there is that, as well as it's super bad for engines , is idiotic to burn FOOD when we could use other crops , and oil is more and more plentiful, as we find more and more reserves.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, November 15, 2013 8:22 PM

REAVERFAN


Obama's been as much a friend to big energy and ag as a west Texas rancher.

Ethanol from crops is useless. It's just a handout to big ag.

Looking green is more important than being green, in their world. They truly don't give a sh*t what it does to us lab rats.

Between this and fracking, there won't be enough clean water or healthy soil to support this many people. Something's gonna give, but it won't be Monsanto.

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Friday, November 15, 2013 9:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with all three of you, even, yes, Rap. Politics at its best, or, as the Japanese would understand it, "saving face". Hey, if it cuts ethanol subsidies, I don't care how they label it.

Now can we discuss cutting subsidies to those non-farming farmers and Big Ag, too?


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Friday, November 15, 2013 10:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Your logic is imperfect: When people are using less gas, of COURSE the oil industry wants to make the percentage of their product higher!



But you just said that they wanted to add cheap ethanol to gas to make more money. So which is it?

Auraptor's post calls the new cut in biofuel use a "big win" for the oil companies.

Not sure how that squares with your statement that "You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer."


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"BOB DINNEEN: If it's not ethanol, what's it going to be? Well, it's going to be more oil. Where are we getting our oil from increasingly today? From fracking in North Dakota, from tar sands in Canada ..."

They invested A LOT in these projects, when it looked like oil consumption was going to go up indefinitely. Now they HAVE TO make them pay off. The money they save by selling 10% ethanol at gasoline prices isn't going to recoup those projects. They HAVE TO re-establish control of the market to sell their product exclusively. Once they have control of the market they can then raise the price and milk those projects indefinitely.


As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies.



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Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
They invested A LOT in these projects, when it looked like oil consumption was going to go up indefinitely. Now they HAVE TO make them pay off. The money they save by selling 10% ethanol at gasoline prices isn't going to recoup those projects. They HAVE TO re-establish control of the market to sell their product exclusively. Once they have control of the market they can then raise the price and milk those projects indefinitely.



Good. You can argue with Niki about it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Big Oil never LIKED ethanol and fought hard against it, overtly and covertly. Ethanol happened despite their efforts, and they got bought off, to a degree, but now that the negatives have grown, of course they'll jump on the band wagon.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


For "G": You were asking why I'm negative toward Geezer, here's an example. I QUOTED Kiki's "You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer", and agreed with it. Geezer then responded to ME, quoting my quote, that "Strange then that the oil industry is trying to get the government to reduce or eleminate the amount of ethanol they are required to add to gasoline." I then explained
Quote:

Your logic is imperfect: When people are using less gas, of COURSE the oil industry wants to make the percentage of their product higher!

Also, the more demand for the actual oil they sell, the more oil leases they can get, among other things. Back then, oil prices were high, demand was high and imports climbing; that's changed. Corn ethanol also can't be transported by pipeline, so a higher percentage of oil means more pipelines, as well.

Big Oil never LIKED ethanol and fought hard against it, overtly and covertly. Ethanol happened despite their efforts, and they got bought off, to a degree, but now that the negatives have grown, of course they'll jump on the band wagon.



Ignoring all that, which I think is pretty clear, and also ignoring everyone else's remarks AND that I agree with everyone that ethanol is bad (and always have), Geezer comes back and once again quotes ME quoting KIKI and claims I said it:
Quote:

But you just said that they wanted to add cheap ethanol to gas to make more money. So which is it?

Auraptor's post calls the new cut in biofuel use a "big win" for the oil companies.

Not sure how that squares with your statement that "You get to cut your expensive product with something cheap, sell it at the same price, and magically blame government for your prices while you rape the customer."


Perhaps that will help answer your question. I didn't "say" that, I agreed with it, but I also knew full well and explained that Big Oil was ALWAYS opposed to ethanol, for their own reasons, they just accepted it when it was forced on them and they were essentially "bribed" as well, and--well, see the above quote by me; again, I think it was pretty clear. Not to Geezer, who sees me through a very specific filter and runs with it every time.

His final post to Kiki makes no sense. Kiki and I aren't arguing about why Big Oil accepted ethanol, she merely brought up yet another reason they are fighting it--again--nowadays, one that I missed. Tho' it does tie into lower gas consumption and is perfectly valid. As is the fact that natural gas has gotten HUGE since the ethanol thing began, and of course they have jumped on THAT bandwagon, as well, and are making out like bandits.

I'd respectfully request you get off my back, Geezer, but I'm fully aware after all this time that it will never happen. So go right ahead, far be it from me to ruin your fun. But you might try making a bit more sense when you go after me.


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Saturday, November 16, 2013 10:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I agree with all three of you, even, yes, Rap.



Careful there Niki, you'll exceed your quota for agreeing with me this year. In fact, I think you've already done so.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A. We agree on many things, outside politics, which is why you're in a different category for me than those like zit and wulf who never make ANY sense at all (and would swear the sky was orange if anyone on the left said it was blue).

B. I've agreed with you about politics numerous times, and you know it. Given that, "I get the joke". ;o)


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Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The story behind ethanol and the petroleum industry is a complicated one - too complicated for simple minds like Geezer - because it involves shifting responses over time.

Here in SoCal ethanol has been part of what's called 'winter blend' since the 80s when the area came ubder USEPA mamdate to reduce wintertime CO. It reduces toxic carbon monoxide coming out of the tailpipe at the time of year when weather conspires to trap CO close to the ground - where it hurts people. At the start oilcos were against ethanol b/c it was a non-petroleum product they had to buy from outside the industry. There were all sorts of claims about how it was going to damage cars - from gas tanks through catalytic converters, and everything in between.

But then they figured how to make it a good thing - they closed down a lot of refineries here in SoCal using ethanol-blending as an excuse, to limit the number of competing refiners, and jacked up the price. Establish monopoly = rape consumer. It works, which is why they do it. And the criticisms of ethanol - well, they disappeared.

Then came the ethanol substitue MTBE which - as a petroleum product - was a petroleum producer's wet dream - and ethanol became the bad guy again. But then MTBE was fairly quickly found to contaminate water supplies after it leaked from underground fuel tanks (a problem still being cleaned up today), so ethanol was brought back on board.

NOW that the major tar sands development is fully realized - you have to remember it was a Canadian dream to be a tar-sands producer from well over 50 years ago - and fracking is gaining traction before regulationa have a chance to be developed - ethanol is the bad guy again COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. At least according to the industry.

But tar sands and fracked petroleum causes far more damage than corn production. So you have to be careful whose story you listen to b4 you make up your mind.

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Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:40 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Kiki. You are more knowledgeable about stuff like this than I'll ever be, that explained it quite nicely.


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