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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think without Mandela, there would have been a violent and terrible civil war in South Africa. The world needs role models like him.

Vale

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Such kind words....................you didn't hurt yourself I hope.


SGG

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Of course, had he not been part of the terrorism which lead him into jail into the first place...

Meh. He came out preaching peace and unity. So that's cool, I guess.

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Of course, had he not been part of the terrorism which lead him into jail into the first place...

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Of course, had he not been part of the terrorism which lead him into jail into the first place...

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What's the evidence for this, out of interest? Interested in what you consider to be 'terrorist'.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Good, so 'violence' doesn't equate to terrorism. So back to my first question: what's the evidence for Mandela being a terrorist?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Good, so 'violence' doesn't equate to terrorism. So back to my first question: what's the evidence for Mandela being a terrorist?

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He supported violence.

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That's what got him into jail in the first place.

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On 31 January 1985 State President P W Botha offers Nelson Mandela, leader of the banned African National Congress (ANC), conditional release from the prison sentence he had been serving since the conclusion of the Rivonia Trial in 1964. The condition of his release is that he renounces violence, and violent protest, as a means to bring about change in South Africa.

Mandela communicates his refusal of the offer through his daughter, Zinzi Mandela, who reads his statement to this effect at a rally in Soweto on 10 February 1985. He states that the ANC's only adopted violence as a means of protest " when other forms of resistance were no longer open to us ". Mandela had refused previous offers of conditional release where the condition was that he be confined to the Transkei.

The offer was also extended to prisoners serving long jail terms for sabotage. 18 accepted, including Dennis Goldberg, the only White found guilty at the Rivonia Trial, and 4 Pan Africanist Congress (PAC) members. Goldberg left South Africa for Israel on 28 February 1985 and the PAC members were released on 15 February.

Mandela had called for the unbanning of the ANC in January 1985 during an interview with Lord Bethell. He asked government to negotiate with the liberatory organisation as a political party. The interview was published in the Mail on Sunday, a British publication, in the same month. In response a South African government spokesperson stated that the apartheid regime would be prepared to negotiate with the ANC if the organisation renounced violence.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/president-p-w-botha-offers-nel
son-mandela-conditional-release-prison

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Good, so 'violence' doesn't equate to terrorism. So back to my first question: what's the evidence for Mandela being a terrorist?

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He supported violence.

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LOL!

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That's what got him into jail in the first place.

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All I'm asking for is examples.

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Umkhonto we Sizwe (abbreviated as MK, translated as "Spear of the Nation") was the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), co-founded by Nelson Mandela

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Bombings

Landmark events in MK's military activity inside South Africa consisted of actions designed to intimidate the ruling power. In 1983, the Church Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the South African Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 deaths and 217 injuries. During the next 10 years, a series of bombings occurred in South Africa, conducted mainly by the military wing of the African National Congress.

In the 1985 Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre shortly before Christmas. In a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the ANC stated that Zondo acted on orders after a recent SADF raid in Lesotho.[9]

In the 1986 Durban beach-front bombing, a bomb was detonated in a bar, killing three civilians and injuring 69. Robert McBride received the death penalty for this bombing which became known as the "Magoo's Bar bombing". Although the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Committee called the bombing a "gross violation of human rights",[10] McBride received amnesty and became a senior police officer.

In 1987, an explosion outside a Johannesburg court killed three people and injured 10; a court in Newcastle had been attacked in a similar way the previous year, injuring 24. In 1987, a bomb exploded at a military command centre in Johannesburg, killing one person and injuring 68 personnel.

The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude[citation needed] of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties.

Landmine campaign

From 1985 to 1987, there also was a campaign to place anti-tank mines in rural roads in what was then the Northern Transvaal. This tactic was abandoned due to the high rate of civilian casualties—especially amongst black labourers. The ANC estimated 30 landmine explosions resulting in 23 deaths, while the government submitted a figure of 57 explosions resulting in 25 deaths.[11]

Torture and executions

The TRC found that torture was "routine" and was official policy – as were executions "without due process" at ANC detention camps particularly in the period of 1979–1989.

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...we were wrong in not giving support to those trying to break apartheid.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The irony is, that aparteid DID end without the violent civil war predicted, precisely because Mandela both negotiated and embraced conciliation, rather than retribution.

Yes, the ANC had a military wing. How do you passively stand up to such a brutal regime? Are you suggesting that passive resistance is the only option ever? Do you think passive resistance would have overthrown Hitler?

The aparteid regime was as oppressive. Opponents were targeted, tortured and killed with impunity by security forces. Sometimes, non violence is just not going to change a brutal system, and I'm basically a pacifist and I can see that.

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But you also have to realize that his history has also been cleaned up and repackaged in recent years for public consumption - like all "heroes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

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In 1983, the Church Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the South African Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 deaths and 217 injuries.

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Nelson Mandela often spoke against civilian casualties, and said that they would countenance no loss of life.

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Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Shown you twice already.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


So, you start off by admitting violence didn't end apartheid, but then seem to suggest that, at some point, you DO need violence.

Seems we agree that when a nation starts gassing citizens by the train car load and invading neighboring countries, it's time to use violence, huh?

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This is the earliest of the attacks you provided - and it took place in 1983. Mandela was imprisoned in 1962 . So all of the attacks that are listed in that Wikipedia article, in the mid to late 1980s, occurred over 20 years after Mandela had been imprisoned.

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Seems like standard sabotage/guerilla warfare tactics to me.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
RWAs do not see right or wrong in actions. They see it only in terms of which side they identify with. That's all that matters to them.

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EVERY SINGLE TIME you forgive them, EVERY TIME you let it slide, looking for signs of humanity in an RWA, I want you to fucking remember what it is that you are enabling by that.

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Something I firmly believe will only come once the last RWA is dead or properly locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane, and something I am willing to stoop to *any* level to accomplish, just so you know.
I didn't chose annihilation as the end point of this, they did, and to do less, to do ANY less, is to enable them, and allow them to continue and advance their evil - this one, Robespierre had right.

EVERY SINGLE TIME you forgive them, EVERY TIME you let it slide, looking for signs of humanity in an RWA, I want you to fucking remember what it is that you are enabling by that.

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when you dehumanise the other, and call for their extermination, you cross the line into being the problem

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Those who are so eager to claim that Mandela is a terrorist are the same people who would be first to resort to terrorist acts if they ever felt their way of life was threatened

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Does Rappy consider the American Revolution a terrorist act? Of course not. That was "patriots" bucking an "unfair" system, he would say.

If the movie Red Dawn ever happened, would Rappy support the gang of kids who became guerrilla warriors in Colorado, fighting off the invading communists? Of course he would. Again: "Patriots" vs "Others."

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But the US killing thousands of innocent civilians in the Middle East? Mandela, using the only means available to him to fight an "unfair" system? Oh, well that's different...

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Vandalize private property... do drugs... plot to blow up bridges

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


I would like to say that harm is never justified, this was the basis of my objections to Mandela. But in truth, maybe I'm not a nice enough person to take that position. Or maybe I'm too idealistic and not realistic enough. I'm not sure.

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Originally posted by Niki2:

Sometimes the things Rap writes are so over-the-top disgusting, there just are no words...

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Which is quite different to calling for the extermination of a particular group of people due to their views.

Not the same at all.

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The Church Street attack on May 20, 1983 killed 19 and injured more than 200 people when a car with 40kg of explosives was detonated outside the SAAF headquarters. Two MK cadres, who were in the car at the time, were also killed because the bomb exploded two minutes early. A huge pall of smoke rose hundreds of feet into the air as debris and bodies were strewn around the scene of the explosion. It exploded at the height of the city's rush-hour as hundreds of people were leaving work for the weekend. Glass and metal were catapulted into the air as shop-fronts and windows were blown out. Many passers-by had limbs amputated by the flying debris. Others bled to death.

In his book "Long Walk to Freedom", Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off” in approving these acts of terrorism, the pictures and details of which follow below. This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off” for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president PW Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing : ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres FW de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line ? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom’. On 11 July 1963 the police raided the home of Arthur Goldreich in Rivonia near Johannesburg, where it captured, by surprise, the leadership cadre of the Umkonto we Sizwe underground. Seventeen people were arrested. Five of those arrested were Jews. They were : Arthur Goldreich, Lionel Bernstein, Hilliard Festenstein, Dennis Goldberg and Bob Hepple.

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K's first car bomb attack took place in May of 1983, and was aimed at an air force and military intelligence office in the heart of Pretoria. This was an effort to retaliate for the unprovoked attacks the military had launched on the ANC in Maseru and elsewhere and was a clear escalation of the armed struggle. Nineteen people were killed and more than two hundred injured.

The killing of civilians was a tragic accident, and I felt a profound horror at the death toll. But as disturbed as I was by these casualties, I knew that such accidents were the inevitable consequence of the decision to embark on a military struggle. Human fallibility is always a part of war, and the price for it is always high. It was precisely because we knew that such incidents would occur that our decision to take up arms had been so grave and reluctant. But as Oliver said at the time of the bombing, the armed struggle was imposed upon us by the violence of the apartheid regime.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Niki2:

Sometimes the things Rap writes are so over-the-top disgusting, there just are no words...

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You mean like " the truth " ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
What the hell.

Fireflyfans, you are a clusterfuck.

<-- also guilty

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Is there some context to this that we should understand for this post to make sense?

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