Poll: Republican Belief In Evolution Has Plummeted In Recent Years by Niki2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ooo, I was gonna thank whoever it was that Rap was quoting, for getting him to give us SUCH a goodie: "My posting of FACT does not, in any realm, equate to being nasty or denigrating, in the least."

Turns out, omigoodness, it was ME! That's one for the record books, a real keeper...

Been fun...off to bed, got a lovely sulky run in the morning...I'll leave our resident troll to play with himself again...

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 11:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Mal4 That was a beautiful and haunting song. Thanks for posting that.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:49 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Soooo obvi with the troll here. He's posted no facts and he knows it, but demanding that he *has* serves as an invitation for a spat.

Niki posted no 'facts' on me being nasty, or denigrating , yet escapes being mocked and called a troll. Why the double standard, hmmm ?

This 'troll' hysteria being exhibited by some is vapid and lame.

And for those of you who aren't so evolved as to be able to take a joke, or to decipher when someone is being absurd to display absurdity, please, don't type while you're in the vicinity of sharp objects.

And finally, enough with this 'lie' crap. I didn't " lie ". You getting all bent out of shape over an obvious joke makes you look like a fool and a simpleton. ( I'm not saying you ARE, but you're acting like one ) Byte got it, why can't y'all ?

Maybe some ARE more evolved than others...

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:31 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Jesus H Christ, why does every thread end up being about YOU.

It's so freakin dull I could vomit.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:12 AM

America loves a winner!

Seems dissent doesn't play well for some.
If only i'd conform & not cause so much trouble, huh?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:25 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Jesus H Christ, why does every thread end up being about YOU.

It's so freakin dull I could vomit.

Let not let it. If Rappy post something of worth respond to it. If not ignore it. That of cousre means ignoring him most of the time.

Now back to the topic at hand.

It is not suprising that the GOP has gone this way. The Tea Party crowd has pushed the party closer to the lunitic fringe.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Amen Nick.

Along those lines, they're pushing even FURTHER:

Quote:
North Carolina Republican lawmakers are making a push to declare an official state religion, introducing a resolution this week that would exempt the state from any federal court ruling involving the First Amendment — or anything else related to the Constitution.

The bill has 11 Republican sponsors in the state's House of Representatives, including the House majority leader, according to WRAL, which first reported the news. Basically, it claims that North Carolina is "sovereign" and thus exempt from any federal court rulings regarding the separation between church and state, including those made by the Supreme Court. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/north-carolina-official-religion-extrem
e-republican-laws-2013-4#ixzz2pFhMpCQC]

So no more Constitution, "laws/Constitution don't apply to us"...and they're not alone:

Quote:
--TheRepublican-controlled Wyoming House of Representatives voted in January to approve a bill that would make it a crime to enforce any federal ban on assault weapons or high-capacity magazines. ( http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/01/31/wyoming-house-approves-bills
-exempting-state-from-federal-gun-control-measures/)

--The Oklahoma House of Representatives voted this week to approve a bill that declares the Affordable Care Act "null and void" in the state of Oklahoma. ( http://newsok.com/oklahoma-house-attempts-to-nullify-obamacare/article
/3765408)

--Tea Party-backed lawmakers in Mississippi have proposed legislation that would create a committee that would be authorized to nullify any federal laws that the state does not want to follow. ( http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=21781&TRID=1)

Gettin' scary out there...

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 10:17 AM

Wow. Interesting stuff, Niki.

Somehow I don't think it'll go anywhere though. This bagger madness has had its heyday. It'll hang around the edges and may continue to annoy the idgits in places like Texas and Oklahoma for a while, but those spots have always been a bit nuts. The country as a whole is ready to move past this now, thank goodness!

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:39 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I take it as their newest version of "secession". They've been effective making abortion illegal/impossible in individual states despite the federal law, so why not try with everything else?

Should be interesting...wish I had your faith, Mal4, but the way things have been going, unless the GOP can get a handle on their folks, it may well get messy.

America has always been awfully big to hold together as one nation...didn't work for the USSR. Wouldn't it be ironic if WE died, not because of capitalism, but because of right-wing theology? Of course, we weren't "created" over time to be one massive state the way the USSR was, but who knows...?

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

>Right, and I'm guessing you've never posted a thread trying to get a response out of the right-wing board members.

>And never pushed a point in an argument even though you know the results will be entertaining.

Actually, no. You apparently don't read what I write, and maybe never have? I have no interest in being devious or faking anything, that should have come across pretty clear in the years I've been here. I've always been clear that I enjoy discussion, I enjoy debate, and THAT'S why I'm here. I put up things which I find interesting, or worthy of bringing to others' attention, and see where they go. I'm SNIDE, certainly, but never deliberately dishonest. Weird you've never gotten that and you, as well as no doubt our righties, think I come here to do as Rap does and trigger people's anger.

When I post the wild, insane stuff I see coming from the right, it's by way of saying "Wow! This is INSANE!", because to me it IS and I think if everyone were aware of this shit, maybe we could make a dent in it. That the righties here go after me and hate me is a byproduct, I'm not posting to THEM. So I have no reason or desire to "fake" it to get people pissed off.

I haven't read the rest of the responses since yours, I've been "playing" in Animation Shop with emoticons for a couple of hours enjoying myself (the results will pop up here in future), and now it's time I got off the computer and dived back into the real world again. I'll read the rest of this thread when I get return--what you wrote just struck me and I wanted to address it.

I do read your posts, though I actually missed this one the first time around.

Niki. TEASING people is not the same thing as being DISHONEST. I did not accuse you of that.

But if you mean to tell me that you cannot be amused at times by the posts from right wing board members, and that sometimes when you feel you have caught them on something you do not try to unravel that thread...

Viewed through this lens, surely you must realize that you have done exactly the sorts of things I have described. And you can do those things and also be here primarily to discuss issues or express shock over outlandish viewpoints. There's no shame in it. It is not devious, it is not fake, it is merely an inherent part of informal arguments.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 1:37 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

It is not suprising that the GOP has gone this way. The Tea Party crowd has pushed the party closer to the lunitic fringe.

That could be, but as an alternate theory:

The number of registered Republicans is dropping year to year - I think the rational ones are leaving the party, and those that remain are the more prone toward extremism and supernatural belief.

The pot is boiling down, and we are left with condensed crazy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 1:47 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

It is not suprising that the GOP has gone this way. The Tea Party crowd has pushed the party closer to the lunitic fringe.

That could be, but as an alternate theory:

The number of registered Republicans is dropping year to year - I think the rational ones are leaving the party, and those that remain are the more prone toward extremism and supernatural belief.

The pot is boiling down, and we are left with condensed crazy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

That is a very good point. Probably a combination, but people leaving the party most likley has the larger impact.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 2:01 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, actually, the right-wing idiocy I see here rarely amuses me, tho' occasionally it does (which has nothing to do with what I post). Mostly it's sad amusement, and confusion that anyone can actually believe some of the things they write.

As to "when you feel you have caught them on something you do not try to unravel that thread"--Byte, that IS DEBATE, that's what debate is all ABOUT, trying to disprove...or "unravel" if you will...the other side's position.

I have, quite literally, never "posted a thread trying to get a response out of the right-wing board members", believe it or not. I know with a sigh that there will probably be one, and I have sometimes posted things with direct questions TO righties about what I posted because I want their feedback, but I actually do approach RWED the way I've always approached forums: as a place to put up things I find of interest that I think might be worth discussing.

My previous experiences weren't with forums where anything I post is usually immediately attacked by pretty much the same people; other places, I put something up, we bounce it around from all sides. I've adapted to RWED insofar as I no longer expect reasoned debate, but I try to make my points validly nonetheless, then I snark, because I finally learned that reasoned debate isn't possible.

The difference is, and it's a REAL biggie to me: I don't deliberately lie. I don't write something untrue just to fool people, just to get a reaction, or for any other reason.

Rap has several times recently now posted things which he clearly stated after the fact were completely untrue, and he'd done it just to mock people who believed what he wrote. That tells me everything I need to know about him. Simple as that.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:09 PM

Quote:
I have, quite literally, never "posted a thread trying to get a response out of the right-wing board members", believe it or not.

So... When you post threads with their names in the title, discussing their behaviour...?

Quote:
I know with a sigh that there will probably be one

I can believe that about most of the threads you post, and that something about you causes them to react to pretty much everything you post. But there are exceptions, we both know there are. There are always exceptions.

Quote:
The difference is, and it's a REAL biggie to me: I don't deliberately lie. I don't write something untrue just to fool people, just to get a reaction, or for any other reason.

...What? Okay, setting aside for the moment I wasn't even saying anything about honesty or dishonesty or any of that. You seem to be insisting on making this about honesty and dishonesty.

So... But... Did you just claim that you're perfect? I mean you saying that is like saying you've never told someone you like their hat even though you think it is the ugliest piece of trash ever. Or never said you're okay when you really absolutely are not okay.

The only reason I was even bringing up the point about provoking people is because I thought it is self-evident because everyone does it. It's part of arguing. It's not lying or dishonest. We seem to agree on at least that much.

But then you conflate that to dishonesty, which is just... What? I am really not following you whatsoever.

I lie ALL THE DAMN TIME. I tell lies more often then I tell the truth. I am the legendary female KING of lies. I know what lying is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. And someone who lies is not necessarily a liar.

What I'm talking about is not lying. I never said it was lying.

Seriously, what.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:15 PM

Byte, you're going all sideways here. I have no idea what you're talking about. Niki has made it quite lear what she means about Rap: he lies. Period. She doesn't lie. So she doesn't do what he does.

I think you've talked yourself into a weird corner trying to make it more complicated than that.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

It is not suprising that the GOP has gone this way. The Tea Party crowd has pushed the party closer to the lunitic fringe.

That could be, but as an alternate theory:

The number of registered Republicans is dropping year to year - I think the rational ones are leaving the party, and those that remain are the more prone toward extremism and supernatural belief.

The pot is boiling down, and we are left with condensed crazy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Back to the point: I think this is very true. I think there is also a big change in the whole damned social/political system because we are exposed to the crazy in a way we never have before due to the internet. I think that's a big deal, not only in terms of awareness, but these nuts have been able to form pretty tight echo chambers.

The baggers are a very condensed ball of tar, no mistake, but they are losing their ability to change anything because of how they driving rational people away.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
America has always been awfully big to hold together as one nation...didn't work for the USSR. Wouldn't it be ironic if WE died, not because of capitalism, but because of right-wing theology? Of course, we weren't "created" over time to be one massive state the way the USSR was, but who knows...?

All things must end eventually... I don't think the baggers will be it. Though I seriously wouldn't mind if certain red states did succeed. The remaining nation would be more stable in terms of politics, economics, health care, and sanity. Just all around better off.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:24 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

It is not suprising that the GOP has gone this way. The Tea Party crowd has pushed the party closer to the lunitic fringe.

That could be, but as an alternate theory:

The number of registered Republicans is dropping year to year - I think the rational ones are leaving the party, and those that remain are the more prone toward extremism and supernatural belief.

The pot is boiling down, and we are left with condensed crazy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Back to the point: I think this is very true. I think there is also a big change in the whole damned social/political system because we are exposed to the crazy in a way we never have before due to the internet. I think that's a big deal, not only in terms of awareness, but these nuts have been able to form pretty tight echo chambers.

The baggers are a very condensed ball of tar, no mistake, but they are losing their ability to change anything because of how they driving rational people away.

Yeah, that brings us to our current "my collection of biases, superstition and wishful thinking is JUST AS VALID as your verifiable facts, scientific data and research!! Because I believe them!" state of affairs.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:25 PM

Quote:
Byte, you're going all sideways here. I have no idea what you're talking about. Niki has made it quite lear what she means about Rap: he lies. Period. She doesn't lie. So she doesn't do what he does.

I think you've talked yourself into a weird corner trying to make it more complicated than that.

Everyone lies sometimes. But that doesn't make everyone a liar. And you aren't lying if you BELIEVE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. You can, however, be wrong about what you believe.

And no, saying something sarcastically or satirically isn't lying either.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Byte, you're going all sideways here. I have no idea what you're talking about. Niki has made it quite lear what she means about Rap: he lies. Period. She doesn't lie. So she doesn't do what he does.

I think you've talked yourself into a weird corner trying to make it more complicated than that.

Everyone lies sometimes. But that doesn't make everyone a liar. And you aren't lying if you BELIEVE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. You can, however, be wrong about what you believe.

And no, saying something sarcastically or satirically isn't lying either.

I believe Rap is lying, yes, lying, and I know what the word means. He does it often and knowingly. He has admitted it, though I believe it goes far beyond what he admits.

I also believe that the only option for you and me at this point is to agree to disagree and get back to the thread.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:30 PM

Okay. I don't think I understand what you're all saying anyway.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:59 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Okay. I don't think I understand what you're all saying anyway.

Neither do they.

Other than 'conservative = bad, collectivist = good ' .

Quote:
I believe Rap is lying, yes, lying, and I know what the word means. He does it often and knowingly. He has admitted it, though I believe it goes far beyond what he admits.

Only, I'm not. But folks will believe all sorts of crazy things, regardless of the evidence.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Yeah, that brings us to our current "my collection of biases, superstition and wishful thinking is JUST AS VALID as your verifiable facts, scientific data and research!! Because I believe them!" state of affairs.

Yes, that nails it perfectly.

Along with what someone else said recently here - that the right take the most outrageous far right stand and then call for compromise in the middle which still means a right agenda. I see the same with evolution. If young earth belief is the initial position and ID is the middle ground, it's still based on belief rather than science and still incorrect.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
If young earth belief is the initial position and ID is the middle ground, it's still based on belief rather than science and still incorrect.

Belief is such a hard nut to crack. I'd never really encountered it like I did in the RWED evolution threads. Those were some doozies! People who operate under belief systems just cannot understand that anyone operates any other way. Such as when they continually call evolution and climate change "beliefs".

And yay for ignoring the troll!

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

It's apples and oranges, so there is no debating belief (even though history is rife with it - all pointless in the end). Belief may require you to ignore evidence and have faith. Faith is what you have been told is true, and may defy all laws of science.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that the initial controversy around the Origins of the Species was not that we evolved, for few but the most hardlined religious zeolots took the Bible literally in Britain, but that nature was depicted as being so cruel. The 19th century was the era of romantic literature and art, it idealised the natural world as being pure and wonderful (in contrast the ugliness of the industrial revolution). Nature meant balance and harmony, but Darwin's ideas showed it as harsh and amoral. It was that more than anything that got up the Establishment's nose.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:13 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Only, I'm not. But folks will believe all sorts of crazy things, regardless of the evidence.

Like climate change deniers!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:24 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"When you post threads with their names in the title, discussing their behaviour...?" How long has it been since I did anything like that? I think I did it about twice--maybe three times--and never again.

"Did you just claim that you're perfect?" Dear gawd NO!! Very, very far from it; there are myriad people who have come through here who have managed to maintain civility much longer and much better than I EVER have! I went through trying again and again to return to civility, and failing every time. Eventually I drew a "line in the sand" for MYSELF (nobody else), and have maintained that ever since.

"I mean you saying that is like saying you've never told someone you like their hat even though you think it is the ugliest piece of trash ever." I'm "careful", I guess you could say. I either don't say anything, or I say what I believe as best I can…I try to think like a lawyer at times, I don't "compliment" people when I don't actually admire something, but I do speak up when I'm impressed with something someone writes. It's what's gotten you and I into so many battles; I try to be careful how I word things and it can lead to misunderstandings.

"Or never said you're okay when you really absolutely are not okay." Nope; never said I’m okay when I'm not. I've said I don't HATE people here, and I don't, nobody here is important enough here for me to hate them, but I think I've been quite clear when I'm upset with something or someone, like the bru-ha-ha Frem and I got into. I just bowed out of the thread about Michael J. Fox having "faked" his Parkinsons because it's close to home, I know people who've suffered tardive dyskensia, some bipolar meds cause it and it's awful, so Rap ranting like he did and claiming a person can "control" alcoholism, etc., started to wind me up. So I got out. Some threads I don't even go INTO, it's all too obvious from the title that there's nothing in it worth my time and attention and it will probably piss me off. But no, I've never said I'm okay when I'm not.

As to lying, I've tried to be very clear and said I never DELIBERATELY lie; obviously we all see things through our own filter, me as much as anyone else, and I know of at least a couple of instances where you're concerned that I have written things which were not what I meant to say. The issue for me is someone who deliberately, specifically writes something that they know to be untrue with the intent of others believing it so they can come back and say "ha ha, gotcha!", which is what Rap has done--and admitted to doing several times now. That's trolling, and it makes me doubt that he is ever honest, when coupled with his style in general and the outlandish things he writes.

That's a whole different thing from what someone believes; I have no idea what he actually believes, but given what I've read from him over the years, in my opinion he lies deliberately to get people's goats far more than he's ever admitted to it.

In essence I'm with Mal4: "I believe Rap is lying, yes, lying, and I know what the word means. He does it often and knowingly. He has admitted it, though I believe it goes far beyond what he admits."

Back to the subject at hand. I agree with Mal4 also on "I think there is also a big change in the whole damned social/political system because we are exposed to the crazy in a way we never have before due to the internet. I think that's a big deal, not only in terms of awareness, but these nuts have been able to form pretty tight echo chambers." I think the internet has created a situation where some of these people believe there are far more who agree with them than there are; I KNOW it has created a situation where the spin machine can lie blatantly and get a whole wave of agreement, which I think contributes to that. One website posts something, which may be a total lie or a blatant mischaracterization; it gets picked up and repeated all over the internet, and people believe it. It's changed us, and not for the better, IMHO.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:35 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Priceless!

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 10:01 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Only, I'm not. But folks will believe all sorts of crazy things, regardless of the evidence.

Like climate change deniers!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Or climate change BELIEVERS !

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 10:09 PM