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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I am on the side of democracy."

Then find me ONE of your posts where you supported early elections as a democratic solution to the problem of Yanukovych. Just one.

"The cause you champion in your posts is all against the new Ukrainian government."

What I've been championing is democracy. Government through the process of election, not coup.

"If the government doesn't abide by that then the people have the right to throw the government out."

Yes, ALL the people COULD have had a chance to vote and decide. But that's not good enough for you.

Anyway, by your bad English I presume you're a plant.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).

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I do? Before you start telling me what I said and what I think, you might want to go back and read my posts. Show me where I said anything about it, because right now you're making assumptions, like you've been making all along.

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So the United States will further sanction Russia because Obama is ASSUMING that Russia is at the heart of all this and has sufficient control to stop the violence.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I am on the side of democracy."

Then find me ONE of your posts where you supported early elections as a democratic solution to the problem of Yanukovych. Just one.

"The cause you champion in your posts is all against the new Ukrainian government."

What I've been championing is democracy. Government through the process of election, not coup.

"If the government doesn't abide by that then the people have the right to throw the government out."

Yes, ALL the people COULD have had a chance to vote and decide. But that's not good enough for you.

Anyway, by your bad English I presume you're a plant.

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Still completely ignoring that fact that the country is still getting early elections, or that fact that the Parliament is the one that was elected. Yanukovych's party is still the largest block in the Parliament, so those decisions are not just being taken by the opposition.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).

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I do? Before you start telling me what I said and what I think, you might want to go back and read my posts. Show me where I said anything about it, because right now you're making assumptions, like you've been making all along.

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I got it from this quote:

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So the United States will further sanction Russia because Obama is ASSUMING that Russia is at the heart of all this and has sufficient control to stop the violence.

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It's open to interpretation I suppose, but it sounds as if there's doubt there, about Russia's involvement.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Miker

I responded to your post point by point. That is called being 'on topic' You don't like it? Too bad.

As for my 'logos' - it's a built-in function of this website that I AND MANY PEOPLE use. Don't like it either? Take it up with Haken and with ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO THE SAME. Otherwise, i think you're just being a troll.

Yanno what problem YOU had with the vote?

YOU think that ONLY THOSE PEOPLE PROTESTING deserved to be heard. Everyone else - presumably pro-Russian and pro-Yanukovych - deserved to have their opinions X-ed out. A vote would have let them be heard.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Goodbye.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.

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I did not see your question earlier, sorry.

No I do not agree that the US, EU and NATO are to blame for the problems in the Ukraine. Ultimately this is about Putin trying to avoid losing influence over Ukraine. It has been said before that Russia with Ukraine is an empire, but without it, Russia is just another country. Now Yanukovych was put in a very tough spot with the pressure put on him by Moscow not to sign the EU deal. The EU's response did not help, but ultimately his decisions lead to his downfall.

One thing that has to be understood is that the US and NATO are not going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Even if Putin send troops, other than the ones there, into other Russian speaking provinces we are not going to see a physical war. We will see hard sanctions. Many of those will hurt the EU as well because of trade ties with Russia.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.

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The agreement that was signed did not scheduled elections. It merely set a date by which they would have to happen. A date with was damn near a year away. Nothing in that agreement forbid the Parliament from beginning impeachment proceedings against a President they believed had protesters killed. The Parliament realized that the people were not going to just sit and allow the President to remain in power for that long a time. Yanukovych than bugged out, with all of his ministers.

The democratically elected Parliament then made the choice to place an interim President and scheduled free and fair elections a few months later.

So what you are arguing should have happened would have left a President who had already had political opponents jailed, and had people killed, in power for almost a year before elections.

What we got is an interim President, appointed the Parliament including the former presidents own majority party, and elections later this month. The only problems this is causing are due to the fact that Putin is not happy.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
4 pages of jerkoffmanship

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You are confusing business with covert operations. A majority of Ukrainians are tired of the corruption and living in poverty due to putting Russia first. They want better. To do this they recognized they need better ties to the EU and WEST.

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One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine’s president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?.... Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s government - [because he probably wasn't at fault- SIGNY] to Vladimir Putin’s Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

The government’s new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

“I think it wasn’t just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime,” Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER

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You are confusing business with covert operations. A majority of Ukrainians are tired of the corruption and living in poverty due to putting Russia first. They want better. To do this they recognized they need better ties to the EU and WEST.

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A whole paragraph, and not one realistic thought! A majority of Ukrainians are tired of corruption? That's why the voted for Yanukovych! They were tired of Yulia Tymoshenko, the Orange Revolutionary who made such a bad deal with Russia that the Ukraine has been hemorrhaging money ever since! "They" didn't want better ties to the west, SOME OF THEM did.

MIKER, your knowledge of history and current events is pathetic. How did you have such a well-connected cousin and live so many years and learn nothing?

M52

You keep repeating, over and over again as if it was some sort of truth, that Yanukovych was responsible for killing scores of people. And yet... (from AP)

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One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine’s president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?.... Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s government - [because he probably wasn't at fault- SIGNY] to Vladimir Putin’s Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

The government’s new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

“I think it wasn’t just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime,” Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.

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As much of an outrage as it was, and as tempting as it is to blame the event on someone ... ANYONE... the reality is that nobody has really figured out WHO was behind the snipers. But apparently, even the Kiev government finds Yanukovych to be an less probable suspect. So dial down the outrage, it's misdirected!

Also, if I'm categorically wrong about the UN vote, so is MIKER. And if you want to figure out who is "closer"- I was off by 3%, MIKER was off by 47%. IMHO, you're TRYING to be objective, but you're still not. But- nice try. At least you didn't descend into the pigpen with Jongsstraw and MikeR so- good on ya.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


b]

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Here you go G, this is reporting on Russia troop involvements in Russia going back to March. I'd say 12,000 along with the twenty thousand in Crimea constitutes an invasion.

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Yes, even Putin couldn't hide invading Crimea. Couldn't even hide it by removing their insignias. What an entertaining, dangerous clown.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Called ... saying ... tweets ... and a 'photo' of unknown provenance 'analyzed' on an amateur website - yeah, that's evidence! Not.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And I'm pointing out that your post doesn't support the CLAIM that there are 12,000 Russian troops currently in Ukraine - seeing as how it has no evidence and is over a year old.


What I'm curious about is - why did you post it? What argument do you think you're making? What am I supposed to take away from your post besides that you either don't or can't read, or think, or tell the truth?

Is that what you're trying to prove?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"It's your link why did you post it?"

As yet another example of the shit you all eat up that has no evidence for your claims.

So - why did YOU REpost it?

To show what kinds of idiotic shit an idiot like you assumes?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You posted it to confuse."

Because I know facts confuse you!

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It's your link asshole. All I did was say hey guys I am reposting comrade trolls link.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"reposting comrade trolls link"

That was in YOUR BBC article. I simply clicked on all the links in YOUR BBC article. So it's YOUR link.



You really ARE confused. Comrade THUGGR.

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1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?


Miker:
I see you erased my last post.

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MIKER: You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.

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I did not see your question earlier, sorry.

No I do not agree that the US, EU and NATO are to blame for the problems in the Ukraine. Ultimately this is about Putin trying to avoid losing influence over Ukraine. It has been said before that Russia with Ukraine is an empire, but without it, Russia is just another country. Now Yanukovych was put in a very tough spot with the pressure put on him by Moscow not to sign the EU deal. The EU's response did not help, but ultimately his decisions lead to his downfall.

One thing that has to be understood is that the US and NATO are not going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Even if Putin send troops, other than the ones there, into other Russian speaking provinces we are not going to see a physical war. We will see hard sanctions. Many of those will hurt the EU as well because of trade ties with Russia.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Orthodox monks expelled from Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra monastery refuse to leave

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