REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Let's talk about other election issues

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Thursday, October 14, 2004 19:05
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Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


We've gone about as fur as we can go on Iraq and Foreign policy. Let's try doing domestic issues for a while.

AP has a nice list of the issues from last night's debate, and thumbnails of the candidate's statements.

Quote:

Topics During the Presidential Debate
Updated: Thursday, Oct. 14, 2004 - 12:11 AM

By The Associated Press


(AP) - President Bush and Sen. John Kerry on the issues at Wednesday's debate:

___

ABORTION

Kerry said he would not appoint judges who would overturn the Supreme Court's 1973 abortion rights decision of Roe v. Wade. Bush said he had no litmus test for judges and reiterated his support for the ban on so-called partial birth abortion. "I think it's important to promote a culture of life," he said.

___

GAY MARRIAGE

Bush said consenting adults can live the way they want to live, but that should not change the institution of marriage. He supports a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Kerry shares the president's belief about marriage, but would leave marriage laws to the states. He supports partnership rights.

___

TAXES

Kerry said he would roll back Bush's tax cuts for Americans who make over $200,000 a year and pledged he would not raise taxes on those who make less. He said he also would eliminate a tax loophole that benefits corporations that move jobs overseas, and use the savings to lower corporate tax rates by 5 percent. Bush said most of his tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans, including the child tax credit and elimination of the marriage tax penalty. He said the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment and get the country out of recession.

___

HEALTH CARE

Addressing rising health care costs, Bush said he supports health savings accounts that would allow Americans to buy into a low-premium plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Kerry said the health care system has worsened during a Bush administration that has ignored ways to lower costs, such as supporting Canadian prescription drug imports and allowing Medicare to negotiate bulk purchasing from drug companies.

___

SOCIAL SECURITY

Bush acknowledged social security is a "real problem" for young people and proposed allowing young workers to put part of their payroll tax into personal retirement accounts. Kerry called that "an invitation to disaster," citing the Congressional Budget Office's estimate that it would create a $2 trillion hole in Social Security and force a cut in benefits.

___

IMMIGRATION

Bush said he sees the problem of thousands of people each day coming illegally across U.S. borders as an issue of security, economics and human rights. He expressed opposition to an amnesty program for illegal immigrants. Kerry, saying borders are more porous today than pre-Sept. 11, supports an "earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American."

___

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

Kerry said he opposes quotas but the nation has not moved far enough along to make affirmative action unnecessary. Bush also opposes quotas; however, he said that in place of affirmative action he supports programs that, for example, help low- and middle-income families fund college, or small businesses get loans.

___

EDUCATION

Bush said he has increased education funding by 49 percent, signed the No Child Left Behind Act to raise standards and expanded Pell Grants for college. Kerry said Bush has refused to fully fund the mandates of his education legislation, making it difficult for states to comply with the law.

___

MINIMUM WAGE

Kerry said it's "long overdue" to raise the hourly minimum wage, which stands at $5.15, and blamed Republican congressional leadership for preventing a vote on it. He said he would, over several years, bring it to $7 an hour. Bush mentioned a Republican senator's minimum wage plan that he supported.

___

DEFICIT

Bush touted his plan to cut the deficit in half within five years using policies that grow the economy and cut spending. Kerry criticized Bush for turning a $5.6 trillion surplus into one of the largest deficits in history, and said he would begin to cut the deficit by rolling back Bush's tax cuts for wealthy Americans.

___

JOBS

Kerry said Bush is the first president in 72 years to lose jobs _ more than 1.6 million since he took office. He said he would abolish tax loopholes that encourage companies to export jobs overseas and would make sure foreign countries are acting fairly and abiding by trade rules. Bush said job losses were caused in part by the Sept. 11 attacks and a recession that began before he took office. He said the best way to create jobs is to keep the economy growing and improve the education system.


(Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)



Pick a topic, and let the games begin.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 14, 2004 3:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Okay, I'll start. Just thumbnails to get things going.


ABORTION

While I'm Pro-choice, I'm bothered by Kerry's presumed single-issue test for Supreme Court judges. Bush obviously panders to the Christian Fundamentalists, but I don't see a partial-birth abortion constitutional amendment getting very far, and think he is aware of this.

GAY MARRIAGE

As long as marriage brings with it specific legal and financial benefits and obligations, I believe that any set of people who want to take on those benefits and obligations should be able to do so. I'm not particular about gender, or even number. Both candidates' views are too conservative for me. Again, the Constitutional Amendment thing is a sop to the CFs, and probably wouldn't get out of the chute.

TAXES

Taxes are what pays for all the stuff that both candidates promise. The US has one of the lowest tax rates of any developed country. http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree
As unpopular as it would be, I'd prefer to see taxes go up across the board rather than spending go down and the defecit increase. I'd also like to see the Tax Code simplified, although that would be a Herculean task.

Neither candidate's tax policy does much for me.

HEALTH CARE

HSAs and cheap prescription drugs are just band-aid solutions (hee hee). Why does healthcare overall cost so much? Is there any way to actually reduce costs, rather than just trying to find ways to pay the higher bills? Why are the same drugs cheaper in Canada? Neither of the candidates really addresses this. Could the healthcare industry have undue influence?

SOCIAL SECURITY

I'm not under Social Security, so I'm not going into this.


IMMIGRATION

Here's one of those "have to pay for it" issues. Securing 12,000 km of land border and 20,000 km of shoreline is a monumental task. Not to mention airports. If we are serious about this, it's gonna cost a bunch. I don't have a problem with Kerry's "earned-legalization" program, but it'll cost too. I would personally like everyone who immigrates to learn to speak English, but would balk at requiring it.


AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

Let it go. At this point it causes more trouble than it's worth.If Bush will actually support "programs that, for example, help low- and middle-income families fund college, or small businesses get loans" that would seem a good idea.


EDUCATION

Way too little money spent on education. Here's that "have to pay for it" thing again. I'd be glad to raise taxes to pay for better education. I'm of two minds about national standards.


MINIMUM WAGE

No comment

DEFICIT

Back to raising taxes again, and spending wisely. Wish we could cut out the pork, but one man's pork is another man's ricebowl, so it's not too likely.
___

JOBS

Sort of agree with Bush on this, although I'm sure he'd be first to take credit if unemployment decreased. I don't see that much connection between government policy and jobs. I think they are impacted mainly by changing markets and financial climates outside direct government control. Same with things like gas prices. The government has little control over storms suspending oil production in the Gulf, or a workers strike in Nigeria.

"Keep the Shiny side up"


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 14, 2004 8:49 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Cool thread. Okay. I'll take a stab at this. Or at least the first half. Other topics that weren't included in the debate that I think are important: environment, role of the government in funding scientific research, energy policy, and interstate highway and other related infrastructure (And many more).

ABORTION:

I don't think the government has the right to tell women they can't make choices about their own bodies. So I guess that makes me pro-choice. Should this be the only metric used to select Supreme Court justices? Of course not. But I think Bush's comments about Dred Scott during the town hall were very insightful and were received by pro-life groups with much contentment ( Dred Scott = Roe v Wade).

GAY MARRIAGE:

I would personally like to see government get out of the business of marriage all together. Saying that it should be handled by each state neglects the federal benefits that married couples enjoy. Split it up: Marriages could only be performed by religious institutions (subject to whatever requirements they choose) and carry with them no benefits while civil unions (open to same sex couples) would carry all the current benefits of marriages and only be conducted by the government. I always cringe on the inside whenever a minister or priest says, "By the power vested in me by the state of …" So I don't think either candidate goes far enough. Relative importance to me? Not very high.

TAXES:

I personally think taxes should be higher. I really don't have much more to say about this except for a personal rant about off-shore accounts. Is there any other reason, besides tax evasion, to have an off-shore account? I would like to have some litmus test for political candidates based on whether or not they have ever had an off-shore bank account, or served on the board of a company that had shell subsidiaries off-shore. I have a feeling both current candidates would fail.

HEALTH CARE:

This is directly related to political finance reform, at least in my view. The health care lobby is abso-friggin-lutely huge. As long as that remains the case nothing much will be done about health care reform. Pharmaceutical companies share a lot of the blame for high prices. I've been toying around with an idea in my head about industries that have captive customer bases (like auto insurers, since anyone who owns a vehicle must be able to show proof of insurance if stopped – at least in this state). I think that if you provide a service that is required by law you should be run as a not-for-profit institution. Just throwing that out there. (Nice band-aid joke, Geezer ).

SOCIAL SECURITY:

I'm paying into social security right now. I always looked at it as a way to thank the previous generation. I don't believe that we should be allowed to take money out to invest as we see fit because that would be stealing from those who have worked hard to make this country great and deserve to reap benefits during their retirement. Sorry Dad, you don't get a check this month because IBM had a bad quarter. I know you put in your 50 years of working, paying your social security the whole time, but this looked like a slam dunk. My bad. (sorry for the facetiousness ).

IMMIGRATION:

I have no concrete suggestions on this topic for actual border security. As long as the economic conditions south of our border (going all the way down into South America) are not as good as the economic conditions in this country people are going to try to illegally immigrate. Why? Because there are jobs here and people who will hire them for less than the minimum wage. Illegal immigrants are working throughout the entire lower 48 (I have no idea about Alaska and Hawaii). I do kind of feel hypocritical talking about immigration reform. One of my great-great-grandfathers most probably just walked over the border and set up a general store south of the small sleepy, at the time, city of Los Angeles back in the late 1860s and I see little difference between his migration and those of great-grandparents who came to California from Arkansas and Missouri during the Great Depression.


----------------------------

Was a big high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was posted, said “Private Property”
But on the back side, it didn’t say nothing --
This land was made for you and me.
---Woody Guthrie

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Thursday, October 14, 2004 10:39 AM

ARAWAEN



ABORTION

I believe that life begins prior to passing through the birth canal and I think murder is wrong, so I guess I am pro-life. I have no interest in telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies, but unfortunately it seems to be a conflict between the rights of two legitimate human beings with no viable compromise.

It is a complicated issue, I don't cross off a justice or politician simply for having one opinion or the other.


GAY MARRIAGE

On one hand I would like the government to get out of the business of marriage altogether. I view marriage as a sacrament that should be between the couple and their god.

On the other hand their needs to be a legal definition of family. We exist in community and marriage is a way of saying to your community, I and this other person are joining together as a family.

I don't find either candidate has approached the issue with reason. The first question is not whether or not marriage should be defined between a man and a woman, but rather what is the purpose of marriage.


TAXES

I would like to see the tax code simplified as well (not likely to happen with republicrats in control). The government's attempt to influence society with tax incentives and penalties is simply ludicrous. The point of taxes should be raise revenues and nothing else.

I am a strong supporter of the progressive income tax, though as stated I would like to see it stripped of its complexity. In fact I would like to do away with most other taxes, especially land-based taxes. IMO, people shouldn't have to pay rent to the government for private property.

I am opposed to the National Sales Tax proposal.

Neither candidate impresses me with their tax policy. I think Kerry adds more complexity and Bush flattens the progressivity.


HEALTH CARE

Both candidates are offering band-aid solutions! I believe drugs are cheaper in Canada because they have a law restricting the price.

Bush greatly annoys me with his 'the government will reduce your choices,' I have no choices, I have no health insurance and cannot afford to treat the several conditions that I suffer from. Even when I had health insurance it wasn't exactly abundant in its choices, nor were the two other plans available at that company.

I am pretty sure that the U.S. is the only industrial nation without national health care. Socialized medicine isn't perfect, just as socialized education isn't perfect, but .

We will never get socialized medicine though because the health care lobby and the ingrained aversion to all things socialist in the U.S.


SOCIAL SECURITY

Don't plan on living long enough to collect, especially when they will be extending the age of eligibility and all. Don't like the idea of private investment with social security funds. Don't really think the government should be investing in private companies. The social security taxes I am paying are not being stored for me, they are paying somebody else's social security. Technically, somebody will be paying them when I collect.

I feel Bush has a bad plan and Kerry has no plan on this issue.


IMMIGRATION

I never had a issue with immigration, my family immigrated in the 30s from Germany. I support making it easier to immigrate and obtain work visas.

Illegal immigration is one of those things I consider a symptom rather than a problem. People need to earn a living, if denied it in their homeland, they will move to a place where they can, even breaking the law if they have to. The best way to combat it is to ensure that they earn a living in their homeland.

I wouldn't mind stiffer punishments on people that higher illegal immigrants.

The security aspect is ridiculously expensive and not likely to be effective. All security is inconvenient and costly, the benefits need to be weighed with the costs.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

Affirmative action as it was meant to be implemented would be great. If two candidates who are otherwise equal in ability apply for the same opening, decide in favor of diversity. Lowering standards or fulfilling quotas seems silly to me.


EDUCATION

I got to work in the public school sector for several years. A lot of money is wasted. Much of it because of bureaucracy required by the government. Government shouldn't micromanage school funding, give them an operating budget and let them operate.

Do away with local school taxes, fund it through state income tax (though I guess not all states have income tax) and give each school x amount of dollars per student (not sure what amount is necessary, it would change anyway with inflation and increasing costs). No more lobbying to give school x more than school y. If Johnny needs remedial reading he gets remedial reading, if he needs honors reading, he gets honors reading.

National standards are probably great in theory, but standardized tests are not the way to get there IMO.

I also think we should bring back classical studies, Latin, Greek, Aristotle, Plato, Cicero, etc. Not going to happen, but I can dream.


MINIMUM WAGE

Minimum wage is a band aid fix. I don't think it anywhere as detrimental as the conservatives suggest, because I have never seen it high enough to affect skilled labor. There is no shortage of unskilled labor (not counting communities which have priced the poor right out of town) meaning the workers are never going to have any bargaining leveredge.

However, it remains a band aid fix. Some sort maximum wage linked as a factor of minimum wage would be preferable (say max is 5x min or something). I am sure that this has flaws to, but I believe that success of group efforts should be shared by the group.


DEFICIT

Outlaw pork! Make congressional pay raises dependent upon a vote by State legislatures, in fact let state legislature pay for congressional salaries and determine their price tag. I see nothing wrong with the senator from New York being paid for by New Yorkers.


JOBS

The government can influence job creation but I think chaos theory applies. It can hurt or help with seemingly random variation.

I prefer the government to focus on job projects too big for private enterprise to handle such as infrastructure. I especially prefer this to complicating the tax code to encourage or stimulate job creation.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:05 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Cool. I'll bite:

ABORTION
Life comes from life. The egg is alive, sperm are alive, and if they don't get together, they die. And no one cares that they die.
The point is not 'Is a fetus alive?', the point is 'Is it human yet?' For biological reasons, I propose at some point it isn't. I put that point at a functional brain, the same point as at the end of human life. Abortion is OK, up to that point. (I just want to point out that Buddhists believe contraception is a 'sin' against reincarnation and so outlaw it, while abortion is OK - it's just the fetus getting whatever bad karma it deserved. The question is DEFINITELY religious.)

GAY MARRIAGE
I agree with the split between religious and civil marriages. I suspect the reason why priests/pastors married people and had it recognized by the state was pragmatism, the same reason why ship's captains got to marry people.
Otherwise, why not? If a religious group/sect is OK with it, then it should be allowed to carry out its beliefs. And I can't really see a reason to object to gay civil unions.

TAXES
We need more taxes to fill the coffers that got emptied out over the last 3+ years. You just can't spend your way out of a deficit.

HEALTH CARE
This is something I've studied quite a bit. I also spent a combined 11 years working in private and public hospitals. The US has THE most expensive (per capita) healthcare system in the entire first world. And while 'they' cover an entire population for the money 'they' spend, the US covers only two out of three (roughly). And if you look at infant mortality and lifespan, which are meaningful statistics, 'they' do better than the US. The reason is - profit. The 'pay or die' basis for US healthcare. I would nationalize it.
___

SOCIAL SECURITY
Well, it's a mess. I wonder, if healthcare were nationalized, would it be possible to reduce SS benefits?
___

IMMIGRATION
Living in CA I have to say too many powerful businesses take advantage of illegal immigrants for the laws to be enforced like they should be. IF we would just enforce the laws it would be a good start, but that's not going to happen.

___

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
When I got out of high school I got in line for 7 hours to apply to be an apprentice electrician and an apprentice pipe fitter. (If there was any doubt, I am a she.) I was told flat out they wouldn't accept an application from a female. When I got out of college I was told flat out the University would not admit me to medical school b/c they didn't have facilities for women. Would my life today be different if I hadn't run into the wall of discrimination a mere couple of decades ago? You betcha. And it still exists. While you have to get to know someone pretty well to hear in private what they no longer say in public, they're still saying it. And they're still acting on it, just not blatantly admitting it. Yes ! to affirmative action.
___

EDUCATION
No child left behind doesn't actually fund schools that need it, it punishes them by taking away funding from the schools that need it the most. And a couple of years ago a federal court (the Supremes?) ruled it was lawful (constitutional?) for widely disparate school funding between wealthy and poor districts. Until there is some mechanism for equitable per-capita funding (with ESL and special needs kids getting more), some agreement on programs that work (like a fully-funded Head Start program, phonetics for reading, immersion for English, and class size limits and small schools), and development of standard curricula, education will at best be a hobby.
___

MINIMUM WAGE
Higher minimum wage.

___

DEFICIT
'Bush touted his plan to cut the deficit in half within five years using policies that grow the economy and cut spending.' I wonder what spending he intends to cut? See 'taxes' above.
___

JOBS
"Business Week reported that the White House this year "unilaterally changed the start date of the last recession to benefit Bush's reelection bid." For almost 75 years, the start and end dates of recessions have been set by the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), a private
nonpartisan research group. But the Bush administration decided to toss aside the NBER, and simply declare that the recession started under President Clinton." "Inventing The 'Clinton Recession'," Business Week Online, 2/23/04http:// www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_08/b3871044.htm
To use an overworked phrase, the fact is that business is global. And people in the US will be competing for jobs against Chinese programmers, phone clerks in Bangalore, and textile workers in China. Unless the US government does something specific to keep USers working, jobs will disappear.
EDITED TO ADD
EDUCATION
http://www.house.gov/budget_democrats/pres_budgets/back_to_school.pdf
Quote:

A White House memorandum of May 19 confirms that, despite previous denials, the President is planning a fiscal year 2006 budget that will impose deep cuts in key government services, with programs at the Department of Education (ED) suffering more than any other: a total cut of $1.5 billion below the President’s proposed 2005 level of funding.
The May 19th memorandum from the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) clearly directs agencies to “[a]ssume accounts are funded at the 2006 level specified in the 2005 Budget database,” a database that shows the spending levels in the President’s budget for agencies and programs for 2005 through 2009. In that database, ED funding for 2006 is cut by $1.5 billion from the President’s 2005 requested level, with every education account taking its share of the cut. Funding is then essentially frozen at that level for the remaining three years for which OMB submitted data.




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