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Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is what comes to my mind -



I'm thinking - " Alright! Iraq, you could do worse. "

And not so much this -



The EVIL splinter cell of al Qaeda, which is too violent for most militant jihadists!

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The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, which on Tuesday seized control of the Iraqi city of Mosul, has become one of the most powerful terrorist groups in the world. Here are a few details about it.

Q. What is the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria?

A. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria has been designated by the United States as an international terrorist organization. It operates in Iraq and Syria and has as its goal the establishment of an Islamic caliphate, or state, in the area now occupied by Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. It is also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and sometimes as the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria.

Q. What is its relationship to al Qaida?

A. ISIS was once considered an affiliate of al Qaida, but the two groups have broken over ISIS’ role in Syria. Al Qaida has criticized ISIS for being too brutal and has complained that ISIS’ zeal to establish an Islamic state has distracted from the current push to topple Syrian President Bashar Assad. Last year, al Qaida chief Ayman al Zawahiri ordered ISIS’ leader, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, to withdraw his forces from Syria. Baghdadi ignored the order.

Q. Which is more powerful, al Qaida or ISIS?

A. There is no simple answer to that question but ISIS’ recent military victories and its control of a swath of land larger than many countries in the Middle East suggest that its military power, if not its influence, now exceeds al Qaida’s. It has fielded a conventional army that has bested the Iraqi military and has resisted assaults in Syria by al Qaida’s affiliate there, the Nusra Front. While ISIS’ radical philosophy has been denounced by many jihadis as too bloodthirsty, its military success is likely to win it new adherents. Lastly, unlike al Qaida, whose strength is dependent on “affiliates” that operate in different countries, ISIS is centrally controlled.

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2014/06/10/3500203/some-answers-about-the-isla
mic.html#storylink=cpy

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Looks like we're gonna do some airstrikes, but I really think the cows are out of the barn now. Too late.

Obama was more busy w/ airlifing illegal children to red states in the SW to concern himself w/ Iraq.

Remember, al qaeda is 'decimated', and its core leadership is on the run.

( But fret not! Obama will release more soon ! )

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
I guess we never should have went there in the first place. Who's idea was that again? I can't seem to remember.

si shen

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"I am very optimistic about Iraq. I mean, this could be one of the great achievements of this administration. You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government." ... Joe Biden

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"I am very optimistic about Iraq. I mean, this could be one of the great achievements of this administration. You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government." ... Joe Biden

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Auraptor
Everyone who voted in favor of using force ?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
We've been funding and supporting al Qaida for years, directly when they were blended in with the anti- Soviet "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan, and indirectly through Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

We helped the Saudis and Qataris ship weapons into Libya to topple Qaddafi, then ship the weapons out again to Syria thru Benghazi. The Saudis and Qataris were in something of a race to see who could supply more weapons to al Qaida in Syria (thru Turkey). We provided political cover - painting the jihadists as "rebels" who only wanted "democracy", and provided military training in Jordan. I posted about this many months ago.

Now that al Qaida is being forced out Syria, thanks to Assad, they're finding a new home in Iraq.

You can't arm and supply a bunch of wild-eyed fanatics, point them in the direction you want them to go, and then think you're going to stuff them back in the bottle once you're done with them. Our "realpolitik" has come back to bite us in the ass... again. We should be more careful who we choose as our friends and allies. I think we're fortunate that the blowback hasn't been worse.

BTW-
What does shi shen mean?

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First when you are referring to giving arms to those in Afghanistan who were fighting the Soviets. They were not quite Al Qaida yet. Not even close.

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Many Muslims from other countries assisted the various mujahideen groups in Afghanistan. Some groups of these veterans became significant players in later conflicts in and around the Muslim world. Osama bin Laden, originally from a wealthy family in Saudi Arabia, was a prominent organizer and financier of an all-Arab Islamist group of foreign volunteers; his Maktab al-Khadamat funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the Muslim world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the Saudi and Pakistani governments.

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Yes we helped topple Qaddafi. That was a good thing despite what you believe.

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The rest of what you say is no more than unsubstantiated ramblings.

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US Weapons for Al Qaeda: Saudi Arabia to Supply Syria Terrorists with Anti-Aircraft Missiles

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After the Benghazi attack, there were public reports of Libyan arms, including these types of anti-aircraft missiles, being smuggled to the Syrian resistance fighting Bashar Assad’s regime.

On September 14, 2012, three days after Stevens was killed, Sheera Frenkel, a correspondent for the Times of London, reported from Antakya, Turkey:

A Libyan ship carrying the largest consignment of weapons for Syria since the uprising began has docked in Turkey and most of its cargo is making its way to rebels on the front lines, The Times has learnt.

Among more than 400 tonnes of cargo the vessel was carrying were SAM-7 surface-to-air anti-aircraft missiles and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), which Syrian sources said could be a game-changer for the rebels.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, it occurs to me.... the occupation of Iraq by ISIS ... this might BE Obama's foreign policy. I know that the admin was never too enthralled by Prime Minister al-Maliki, who refused to sign an agreement of forces (I believe it's called), which would have allowed a residual US force in Iraq. That's ONE way to dump an uncooperative foreign leader... bring in the replacements! I think what will happen is that in effect Iraq will be partitioned, except rather than being partitioned into three (Kurds in the north, Sunnis in the center and Shias in the south) the north (and its oil) will be taken over by the Sunni ISIS. With all of the attendant blood-letting.

SO don't expect Obama to do much about this; as awful as it looks, it's prolly all part of the plan.

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I think the world is too complicated for you to grasp

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Because your approach to why this or that is being done never changes, while what is being done and why is always in flux.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I think the world is too complicated for you to grasp

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And yet, you're the one who reduces the world to the simple concept of USA good, everyone else bad, who refuses to encounter our history, and who also refuses to consider various alternatives and explanations. For example, the idea that ISIS may be a tool of our foreign policy... I put that out as an idea, not a conclusion, but I also added what I think we could be looking for in terms of evidence. I'm sorry, child, but the person who seems to want to keep things simple is you.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
There are thousands of Americans in Baghdad, and thousands of Iraqis that work with those Americans. They're all in fear for their lives and they all want to get out now. Al Qaeda is an hour away and armed with captured American weapons that used to belong to the Iraqi Army.

President Obumfuck didn't lift a finger to save Fallujah or Mosul or Tikrit from the jihadist slaughter. Now he's flown to California to play golf, as Baghdad is about to be encircled. His advisers are briefing him and Susan Rice on how they're gonna blame a Tawney Kitaen-Whitesnake video for the Baghdad genocide. And then Hillary will say "What difference does it make now?"

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
There are thousands of Americans in Baghdad, and thousands of Iraqis that work with those Americans. They're all in fear for their lives and they all want to get out now. Al Qaeda is an hour away and armed with captured American weapons that used to belong to the Iraqi Army.

President Obumfuck didn't lift a finger to save Fallujah or Mosul or Tikrit from the jihadist slaughter. Now he's flown to California to play golf, as Baghdad is about to be encircled. His advisers are briefing him and Susan Rice on how they're gonna blame a Tawney Kitaen-Whitesnake video for the Baghdad genocide. And then Hillary will say "What difference does it make now?"

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" Boy, this job sure does suck, but someone has to do it ! "

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Yanno, it occurs to me.... the occupation of Iraq by ISIS ... this might BE Obama's foreign policy.-Signy

And in Syria too? All to get Maliki out? Lot of trouble for something that a check with a lot of zeros could fix in a day. Or fewer zeros and an accident. I think the worst part is how you marginalize the ISIS by assuming they can't be a real group, full of their own will and self determination, that they could only exist to do our bidding. That seems rather single and self-centric. You could be in the US foreign service (the one you hate) with thinking like that.-G

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For example, the idea that ISIS may be a tool of our foreign policy... I put that out as an idea, not a conclusion, but I also added what I think we could be looking for in terms of evidence.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Please do not beat me with a big stick but……..

They did the same thing to Bush as he golfed during both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. It too goes with the job.


si shen

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Please do not beat me with a big stick but……..

They did the same thing to Bush as he golfed during both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. It too goes with the job.


si shen

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One GINORMOUS difference... Bush stopped playing golf, while Obama has played more golf than any President - ever.

And he's teeing it up again this weekend. Again.

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I have a small forum grudge against smart people who have wonky ideas.

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I did see you qualify your idea. I thought that was a hedge though, that over under [???] you believed it more than not. I know what we did in Afghanistan. I believe we'll go to some very extreme lengths to foil Russia. But all this [just] to depose Maliki? Wild idea.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I have a small forum grudge against smart people who have wonky ideas.

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Tant pis

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I did see you qualify your idea. I thought that was a hedge though, that over under [???] you believed it more than not. I know what we did in Afghanistan. I believe we'll go to some very extreme lengths to foil Russia. But all this [just] to depose Maliki? Wild idea.

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Maliki isn't the sum total of the Iraq government. There is the Parliament, the army, the judiciary which are dominated by Shias. By sending in a new (Sunni) army, Saudi Arabia gets a whole new do-over. It makes sense from the Saudi POV. And all of those Saudi and Qatari arms shipments to al Qaida in Libya and al Qaida in Syria are real, consequential events. Did ISIS (funded and armed by Saudi Arabia and Qatar) wind up in Iraq on purpose, or was this accidental? This is an idea that bears further observation.

Just a comment here:

The USA government is a master of creating set-pieces, and the people are masters of being fooled. I thought the Gulf of Tonkin incident smelled fishy, even back then. The first invasion of Iraq... another set-piece. The second invasion of Iraq... clearly another set-piece: the ridiculous assertions, the moving goalposts, the ever-increasing demands (by the west), the whipping up of the population into a frenzy of fear. Panama- according to that set-piece, Noriega was a major drug runner. Well, Noriega was deposed, and the flow of drugs... from Colombia, where they'd always been coming from... never slowed down. So much for that! Grenada- another set-piece. Libya- yet another set piece, this one about the Arab Spring and how Qaddafi was brutally killing freedom-loving people and small children. It was all fake. Ukraine- yet another set-piece about how those horrible Russians are attempting a land-grab.

People don't seem to realize that our government .. yours too, and Russia, and China... think nothing of making shit up whole cloth. In response to the first thought that comes to mind for most people ...But... but.. they wouldn't DO that! the answer is... Oh yes they will. They already have.

It never fails- pure fiction is being pushed and swallowed as "credible ideas". It seems that people would rather swallow familiar poison than be free thinkers. And when they hear an idea that doesn't fit in with the official narrative, they call it "wonky" and dismiss it.

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By sending in a new (Sunni) army, Saudi Arabia gets a whole new do-over. It makes sense from the Saudi POV.

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And all of those Saudi and Qatari arms shipments to al Qaeda in Libya and al Qaeda in Syria are real, consequential events.

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Did ISIS (funded and armed by Saudi Arabia and Qatar) wind up in Iraq on purpose, or was this accidental? This is an idea that bears further observation.

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The USA government is a master of creating set-pieces, and the people are masters of being fooled. I thought the Gulf of Tonkin incident smelled fishy, even back then.

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Panama- according to that set-piece, Noriega was a major drug runner.

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Panama- according to that set-piece, Noriega was a major drug runner.
this one about the Arab Spring and how Qaddafi was brutally killing freedom-loving people and small children

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Ukraine- yet another set-piece about how those horrible Russians are attempting a land-grab.

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A. What are you suggesting Saudi Arabia is behind this? That is what it looks like.

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B. You suggest here Saudi and Qatari arms shipments are purposely being given to Al Qaeda in Libya and Syria. I would like some proof of that please. Or is this just conjecture.

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C. You seem to be implying something, what? Reading you’re other posts with this one I know what it is but I would like to hear it from you.

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In stories, newspapers, and the spoken word, people all over the world are trying to convince you to think as they do. They are bombarding you with facts and figures, opinions and projections. It is up to you to create order within this chaos and find the patterns that will help you to understand what is true, what could be true, and what is outright false.

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As far as the remainder of my post, the own where I reference the whoppers that various administrations foisted on people

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is that you seem to totally dismiss that ISIS could be just what it looks like it is, that the only way to explain them is to look for a hidden agenda, or a US agenda, that they can't just be what there have been for thousands of years in the Middle East - sectarian violence.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

But whatever ISIS is, it got a big boost directly from Saudi Arabia, and a boost from the USA either directly (assistance with shipping arms from Libya to Syria) or indirectly in the form of tacit approval. Those tons of weapons propelled ISIS into much greater effectiveness than they would have had otherwise. They could be like the mujahideen in Afghanistan, biting the hands that fed them

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