Probably not part of the plan.... by SIGNYM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Probably not part of the plan....

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, July 13, 2014 19:03
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VIEWED: 1948
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Friday, July 11, 2014 7:21 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

We (the USA) have caused so much chaos in so many places... Ukraine, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Egypt and elsewhere ... supported do many dictators and terrorists and jihadists... it's a little hard to know when a place falls to ruin and jihadists take over whether it was all part of "the plan' to begin with, or whether it's real blowback run amok.

Well, the news has been so quiet on the ISIS front that it seems "things" are not going so well in Iraq. The theft of almost 90 pounds of uranium ... which on any day could be turned into a casus belli by the media, especially if one considers the "dirty bomb" aspect of the threat... was quickly buried the news by the following day. People DO have short attention-spans if you dangle a Kim Kardashian or (fill in the blank here) in front of them!

So my guess is that ISIS is a real runaway creation. It may have been started and fostered by Saudi Arabia and Qatar as an offshoot of al Qaida but... dang! They went off the rez, it seems!

------------

Been kind of noddling about exactly how it is that the USA causes so much destruction and divisiveness, and especially WHY we would want to do such a thing. Clearly, you can't get oil out of a smouldering landscape full of warring tribes ... Libya and Sudan and Iraq showed us that! ... so these are not wars for resource extraction. Egypt shed some light on the topic... President el Sisi, the ex-General who was voted in and then promptly murdered over 1000 Egyptians... has just implemented "austerity" measures to please the IMF.

So there are a few useful aspects to destablization. If you muddle a nation long enough, eventually people will accept a tyrant, if only for some order and stability. That's what happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban. If that tyrant happens to be OUR tyrant, "we" can get that nation to accept anything... crushing austerity measures, fire-sales of national assets, huge military bases etc.

And the rich don't worry so much about blowback because they're well-protected; it's just us peons that are at risk. Heck, the Saudi Royal family was flown out of the USA even while all airplane were supposedly grounded after 9-11. They feel they'll all get in their private jets and fly someplace else, if worse comes to worse.

It occurred to me that there's nothing preventing destabilization from being practiced here, either. The wealthy who control our government have no loyalty to this country.

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Friday, July 11, 2014 7:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

We caused ?

What a load of crap.

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Friday, July 11, 2014 8:53 PM

THGRRI

I can see where you would be confused Signym, it goes something like this.

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Friday, July 11, 2014 9:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

So, because Archie left a $20 in his coat pocket, and the black guy DIDN'T steal it, but instead returned it , Meathead some how sees that as Arch being " ahead " in the game ?

Kooky Left wing math indeed!

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Friday, July 11, 2014 9:39 PM

THGRRI

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, because Archie left a $20 in his coat pocket, and the black guy DIDN'T steal it, but instead returned it , Meathead some how sees that as Arch being " ahead " in the game ?

Kooky Left wing math indeed!

Perhaps but it goes a long way in showing how muddled things get when reading one of Signyms posts. Facts or half truths jumbled with preconceptions.

It also has the added bonus of being funny as hell.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:55 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"So there are a few useful aspects to destablization."

I don't think Afghanistan and Iraq fall into that category. Afghanistan was a bait-and switch, that we just couldn't scrape off when we tried. And Cheney isn't that long-term a thinker on Iraq. I really do think he, Rumsfeld, Rice et al assumed they'd find enough WMDs so everyone would call Hussein a global threat and the US heroes, the US would be welcome with showers of rose petals, and life and oil profits would be good and they would live happily ever after.

But the Arab Spring that was SUPPOSED the bring freedom to N Africa and through the middle East and up to Eastern Europe - now THAT's a plan. Or, many plans with a common end, which is the disruption of the Russian sphere of influence, and the incorporation of as many areas as possible into the IMF and NATO.

It's about economic competition. If you can't get an economic advantage from it like the IMF/ global banking in the Ukraine, at least weaken the enemy like breaking the non-petrodollar Libya.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Cheney's a long-term thinker. Remember that Secret Energy Task Force that he was part of back in 2000? The one that even the list of attendees was secret?

One result of that Energy Task Force was to exempt fracking from all Federal environmental regulations. Not some... ALL: Clean Water. Clean Air. Safe Drinking Water. Resource Recovery and Conservation. Community Right to Know. (So much for local power and accountability!) Superfund. Emergency Planning. So basically a community can be screwed, blued, and tatooed and there ain't nothin' they can do about it.

That was at least 12 years before fracking came into the common lingo. He has a long view. Cheney is a deep state member, according to various pundits. I don't think that he expected much different from Iraq. After all, he n Daddy Bush went back a long way, n if Daddy Bush was smart enough to see the power vacuum open up after the fall of Saddam (and then back away slowly, leaving the hell alone) then Cheney would be smart enough too. I think the deal was to stop Iraq at all costs from signing the deals it had already made with France and Russia, and was just waiting for Blix to give the go-ahead for final signature. THAT was the real goal: Stop. Iraq. At. All. Costs.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:53 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Not seeing how turning an oil-rich country like Iraq, or a geographically strategic country like Afghanistan, into a hot mess of radicalism is a benefit. Yeah sure it/ they might have just gotten away from the neocon deep state, but i don't see that there was any real effort to steer the situation into something useful.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 2:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sometimes it's not about getting resources for yourself as much as denying resources to others. Iraq was about to enter a rich era of oil exports to France and thru Russia to others, and the trade was going to be in something other than dollars. As I recall, it was to be a basket of Euros, gold, and maybe something else.

That would have put pressure on both the petrodollar (not good for the USA or the Saudis) and on oil prices (DEFINITELY not good for the Saudis!) And if there's one relationship that was strong and enduring, it was between the Bush family and the Saudi Royal Family. In fact, I always wondered what the first Gulf War was all about... certainly not because the Arab states were all pissed off that Kuwait was slant-drilling into Iraqi reserves... whatever it was, it was prolly because Saudi Arabia had it's knickers in a twist about something, and Daddy Bush was ready to do their bidding.

Afghanistan. Sigh. Poor Afghanistan. It appears to be a victim caught in the crossfire. I can't see any resource or strategic reason to mess it up.

OTOH, Syria is in the way of a gas pipeline, and Sudan was cut into two to deny China and India a source of sweet crude.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 2:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW- is it just me, or did you notice the board devolving into a circle-jerk lately?

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 3:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Noticed. It's too bad. It drives many of the more interesting intelligent people away and makes good discussion that much less likely.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 3:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Between the childish giggling and mutual masturbation, the walls are getting pretty splattered.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 9:55 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Kuku and Sniggy making plans to bump uglies after lunch.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Between the childish giggling and mutual masturbation, the walls are getting pretty splattered.

It's the wounded animal syndrome. Our righties sense the impending death or permanent change of the GOP as they flail about desperately trying to pin something on Obama as the public goes all *meh*.

Clinton? Good economy.
Bush? 9-11, Iraq & bubble burst.
Obama? Got Bin Laden & slow recovery.

Recent track record makes another Republican POTUS unlikely IMO, especially with them all whining like bitches about stuff Joe Public couldn't give a shit about.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:41 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hm. So you think Iraq was broken on purpose but nobody cared to make sure it wouldn't become a threat? That doesn't sound like long-term thinking to me.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 11:39 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hm. So you think Iraq was broken on purpose but nobody cared to make sure it wouldn't become a threat? That doesn't sound like long-term thinking to me.

Oh it sure IS. The military Industrial Complex thrives on threats. Seed 'em, water 'em & cut 'em down before they get too big. Standard farming procedure.

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 6:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

This is kinda what I've been talking about, Girl...

Some of us welcome the coming of the end. Others need family. You need family. Run to them. We're about to set this planet on fire.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, July 12, 2014 7:29 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hm. So you think Iraq was broken on purpose but nobody cared to make sure it wouldn't become a threat? That doesn't sound like long-term thinking to me.

Iraq was a personal thing with GWB- " I'm a better man than my Daddy, I can whup Saddam."

No further thought went into it. Sannam ( OOPS! Spelling. Saddam...) was keeping the Iranians in check, or at least watching over their shoulder with one eye, so they didn't have time to cause MUCH trouble anywhere else.

Mighta been some thought of " Look at all the oil we can grab," but that was a second priority.

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Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GWB wasn't in charge of the WH, it was Cheney. Whatever GWB believed about his daddy or Saddam or WMD was what Cheney encouraged, I'm sure.

The reason why I'm convinced that chaos has become our goal is because we do it so damn often.

Forced the Soviet-friendly government out of Afghanistan, and then let it devolve into a nightmare of warlordism so terrible that people welcomed the Taliban. Then bombed it... hmmm, can't say BACK into the stone age because after the destruction of the Soviet-built schools, roads etc by the warlords and the Taliban, it never got out of the stone age. So, we bombed it into something less than the stone age, stuck a manic-depressive oil company executive in charge of Kabul, and simply weren't willing to put in the resources required to do anything real. OOPS!

Iraq. Wow, what a cluster-fuck. SOME idiots in government believed that Saddam had WMD, others were all about forwarding the PNAC neocon agenda, a few were convinced that Iraq oil would pay for the war. None of those, IMHO, were the real reason to invade Iraq. So shock and awe destroyed the infrastructure, then the Sunnis were completely cut out of government, Paul Bremmer foisted a neo-liberal economy on Iraq, billions of dollars went to half-baked contractors in an unsuccessful "effort" to get the oil wells, water supply, and electricity going again. Then Iran basically took over 2/3 of Iraq, which is now entirely embroiled in sectarian warfare. OOPS!

Libya. A functioning secular nation with the highest standard of living in Africa. Qaddafi was about to sign a contract with France in which he was demanding gold, not dollars. In addition, he was going to use his gold to start a pan-African currency. So we made up a crap-ton about Qaddafi "killing his own people", bombed large parts of Libya where people WANTED Qaddafi, armed, trained, and feted jihadists and al Qaida members, then walked away to let Libya fall apart, along with its oil output. OOPS!

Sudan, where oil is so light and sweet you can practically use it unrefined. Sudan's major customers were India, China, and Malaysia. We played up the story about those horrible northern Arabs who were terrorizing the peaceful southern Xtians, successfully split the nation into two, then gave the keys of South Sudan to a President who was so corrupt, that another leader, the Vice President, started a civil war. Meanwhile since the oil is in the south and the shipping ports are in the north, China, India, and Malaysia can say goodbye to their oil imports and BOTH Sudans can say goodbye to 90% of their national income. OOPS!

We encouraged, funded and armed Syrians disaffected by drought plus known al Qaida members and other jihadists, with no thought for who would govern the country once Assad fell. The nation is still embroiled in civil war. OOPS!

Funded and provided political cover for western-leaning nationalists and Nazis in Ukraine, smiled benignly when they deposed their elected President through violence and burned and killed people in southern and eastern Ukraine. Civil war results. OOPS!

I could also point to Egypt, Venezuela, and Honduras as additional recent examples where we have encouraged and funded destabilization efforts without a thought for what would happen next. Nobody should be surprised if Yemen and Pakistan fall apart either.

There are only so many times you can be seen as making a "mistake". Maybe the first two times... yanno, slow to drop a previously successful strategy, unique unforeseen circumstances, etc... but... nine times? Really???

The whole approach of breaking nations was perfected in Yugoslavia, and we haven't stopped since.

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Sunday, July 13, 2014 7:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"So there are a few useful aspects to destablization."

I don't think Afghanistan and Iraq fall into that category. Afghanistan was a bait-and switch, that we just couldn't scrape off when we tried. And Cheney isn't that long-term a thinker on Iraq. I really do think he, Rumsfeld, Rice et al assumed they'd find enough WMDs so everyone would call Hussein a global threat and the US heroes, the US would be welcome with showers of rose petals, and life and oil profits would be good and they would live happily ever after.

Yep, I think Iraq was exremely poorly thought out by deluded neo-cons who see the world in a very narrow way and then are surprised that not everyone holds the same beliefs as them. I think the above entirely portrays how they saw the situation playing out. They assumed that Iraqis would be either good guys - support American 'liberation' and bad guys - support Hussein regime, that all they had to do was topple the bad guys, install the good guys and it's all fixed right? Where was John Wayne when you needed him?

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