Accident or Not? Malaysian Airliner shot down. by chrisisall

America loves a winner!

Sucks. Lotta fog of war stuff going on now too...

Thoughts & sympathies to those affected.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:54 PM

JONGSSTRAW

A passenger jet cruising at 32,000 feet taken out with a missile! That's a hellava war they got going on over there in Ukraine. I bet none of the passengers who boarded in Amsterdam had any clue their jet would be flying over a war zone.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 3:01 PM

Question is, did Russia do it? That would make them look like trigger-happy bullies. If it was Ukraine, that'll put them in the doghouse on the World stage and their situation will worsen...

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 3:23 PM

America loves a winner!

Many many questions here.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 7:10 PM

JONGSSTRAW

...Russian separatists took control recently of a Ukrainian military base and got their hands on BUK Guided Missiles. They showed pictures of them on their websites.

...Russian separatists shot down 2 Ukrainian military planes during the last week.

...Doesn't seem that hard to figure out who shot down this commercial airliner.

...Why the hell was Malaysian Airlines flying over that airspace? All airlines were warned back in April to avoid that region.

...Who the hell would even get on a Malaysian Airlines plane after the flight 370 fiasco?

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 7:59 PM

America loves a winner!

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware, requiring synced radar, a fixed pad or at least a mobile rocket launcher and a command structure to give the word to push the button or not. This wasn't Igor and Dimitry , getting faced on Vodka and randomly pushing buttons for kicks. The ones who let this dog off its chain had serious military training.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 8:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Looks like MAS were flying over a war zone to cut costs.

American pilots had been warned since April not to fly over large swathes of Ukraine because of escalating hostilities in the east of the country but it appears other airlines did not issue similar precautions.

Why did MH17 fly over Ukraine?

No flyzone now in force ... All commercial flights are now avoiding the area in Ukraine where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was "shot down". Picture: FlightRadar / Twitter

UPDATING STORY: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 ‘shot down’

NATIONALITIES: Revealed who was on board flight MH17

The Federal Aviation Administration posted the warning on April 23, particularly over parts of Crimea and the east.

Today, several airline chiefs immediately ordered their aircraft to avoid the region until further notice.

A British Airways spokeswoman said tonight: “The safety and security of our customers is always our top priority.

“Our flights are not using Ukrainian airspace with the exception of our once-a-day service between Heathrow and Kiev. We are keeping this service under review but Kiev is several hundred kilometres from the incident site.”

Italy’s Alitalia airline said it would divert its flights away from eastern Ukrainian airspace as had Virgin Atlantic

“Our thoughts are with all involved in the recent Malaysian Airlines incident,” a spokesman said. “We are closely monitoring the situation and as a precautionary measure are re-routing a small number of flights this evening.”.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/international-aviation-authorities-cl
ose-ukraine-airspace-after-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/story-fniztvne-1226993033683

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware

Atypically, I must agree with you here.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:35 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:09 PM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

Americans have done the same.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

Americans have done the same.

Ooops all around.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

So, not a history buff, eh?

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:01 PM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

Do your own homework. No fair copying off others.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Ukraine Releases YouTube Clip "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17
Tyler Durden's picture

Almost exactly one year ago, the world was nearly brought to the verge of a global war by proxy involving the US and Russia (and Europe and China) over a staged, false flag YouTube clip "proving" the Assad regime had used toxic gas (gas that was made in Britain as it was later revealed) to kill several hundred civilians in the country's ongoing war against what subsequently turned out to be al-Qaeda funded and trained rebels (and which now are fighting across the border with another former US-puppet state, Iraq). Luckily, back then an all out confrontation was averted in the last minute over what was ultimately nothing but a gambit by Qatar to have its gas pipeline enter Europe and leave Gazprom in the cold (literally and metaphorically).

A year later, it is deja vu all over again, when the same energy and geopolitical tensions (Europe, natural gas, etc) are once again at the frontline, and while the theater of combat may be different, the same key players - Russia and the US - are once again behind the proxy conflict in Ukraine, and where Gazprom is once again the fulcrum party. The only missing link was a YouTube clip which would bring the world to the edge of war again.

Moments ago Ukraine released what may be just that missing "YouTube" link, when it unveiled a 2:23 minute video supposedly proving that "militants of "Bes" group shot down with a Russian anti-aircraft missile a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 passenger jet heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur."

In the clip, Ukraine presents what it alleges are several recorded conversations, first of all between a pro-Russian separatist and his coordinator Vasyl Geranin, who is said to be a colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces. In summary, this conversation talks about the downing of a jet. There is no distinction whether this is a civilian or a military jet, and may well refer to the shot down Ukrainian Su-25 which we reported earlier today was shot down overnight, and which Ukraine at first claimed had been shot down by a Russian warplane, something which Russia promptly denied hours later (and before the Malaysian Airline tragedy happened).

The purported smoking gun is "revealed" in the second section which begins 43 seconds and lasting one minute in between a "Major" and "Grek" who are also allegedly Russian rebels. It is here that the conversation goes into explicit detail describing the contents of the downed airplane, and makes it clear that it is a civilian airplane, describing the civilian carnage, and stopping just why of naming this a Malaysian Airlines flight.

This is the key segment as it explicitly makes it clear that the plane the alleged separatists in the first part were talking about was not the Su-25 but MH 17. The only problem is that there is absolutely no way to confirm who "Major" and "Grek" are, and considering the entire Ukraine civil war has been merely one provocation and counter-provocation after another, explicitly staged in advance by either the CIA on the side of Kiev or the Kremlin on the Russian side, one does have to wonder whether the said two "smoking gun" participants aren't merely two random people speaking Russian and reading off a script?

The clip concludes with another unnamed "Militant" who supposedly is speaking to Mykola Kozitsyn, one of the purported leaders of the Cossacks operating in east Ukraine. The Militant makes it clear to Kozitsyn that it is not a military plane and has "Malaysian Airlines" written on the side. One wonders just where one could find such writing on the side of the crashed and exploded fuselage but that one is for the forensics to decide.

In other words, if indeed all the participants in this YouTube are as they have been presented, then surely this does put the pro-Russian rebel movement in a very unsavory light.

And yet, something here smells very fishy...

First, the Russian version of the clip which was released in parallel, and shown below, there is a major discrepancy in the time stamp, with the English-dubbed version showing the conversation between Major and Grek taking place at 5:11 pm and 5:32 pm, while the original one has it at 4:33 pm, 5:14 pm and 5:32 pm.

Then there is what gmorder has revealed is either a clearly erroneous creation timestamp, or the video was actually uploaded yesterday.

Finally, we clearly have no way of authenticating the recording or the participants, it was just over a month ago, on June 5, when in another attempt to cast blame and discredit the separatists, Ukraine released another trademark YouTube clip seeking to disparage and frame Kozitsyn, titled "Russian Cossack Formations are Responsible For Chaos In Ukraine."

It was released in Ukraine Investigation where the author writes as follows:

Here’s a transcription of the video where one of the Cossack atamans, Kozitsyn Mykola Ivanovych, discredits himself and gives orders to kill people, promises to transfer weapons and supplies on the territory of Ukraine from Russia and mentions that there are people standing above him. From this point goes the video transcription.

The video from June 5 is shown below.

What is quite striking is that the production quality is identical between the two clips, in everything from the design, to the scene and caption selection to the layout of the dubbing. All done very professionally. The only thing missing in the original clip is that translation which was conveniently added to today's alleged framing of the same Russian forces - after all it is for global consumption - and the very same "cossack" Kozitsyn. A cossack who, the Ukraine defense ministry would want the world to believe, was so stupid he not only knew he was being recorded (as proven explicitly by the pre-existing June 5 recording release, proving every conversation of his was captured "on tape", something he himself most certainly would be aware of), but would also speak unencrypted and on the record - just like Victoria Nuland did back in February when her leaked recording showed it was the US that was the mastermind behind the Ukraine unrest in the first place - going into gruesome detail of just what kind of plane it is that his men had taken down.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip
-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

Was he really that stupid? Or is this merely yet another false flag provocation from the same "masterminds" that tried to launch another world war to benefit a few billionaire Qatari emirs with nothing but a YouTube clip in the summer of 2013?

Somehow we doubt we will ever know the true answer, but that is largely irrelevant: the opinion of the world as to who is at fault here is most certainly very much made up by now anyway, and if it isn't, the "unbiased" media will certainly help, even it has nothing but repetitive soundbites and speculation presented as fact, in the coming days.

How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:46 AM

How many of you see the play-out of fossil fuel as a catalyst for conflict?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 1:53 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Delegates at a pre-conference in Sydney were told on Friday morning that about 100 medical researchers, health workers and activists were on the plane that went down near the Russia-Ukraine border, including former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange.
Joep Lange.

Joep Lange. Photo: aighd.org

Health researcher Clive Aspin, who is attending the pre-conference, said the news had hit everyone hard, coming 16 years after AIDS research pioneer Jonathan Mann also died in a plane crash.

"Yet again, we're devastated by a similar tragedy," he said. "It's going to be a very sombre mood at the conference in Melbourne, especially for those of us who have been coming to these conferences for many years."

Organisers of the International AIDS Conference, due to begin in Melbourne on Sunday , have not released numbers, but did confirm expected attendees were among the dead.
WHO media adviser Glenn Thomnas.

Glenn Thomas. Photo: Twitter

"A number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine," Michael Kessler of the International AIDS Society (IAS) said in a statement.

"At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy."

The passenger plane had been flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board. It was due to connect with another Malaysia Airlines flight scheduled to arrive in Melbourne on Friday night. Many medical researchers have expressed sympathy online upon hearing that both World Health Organisation (WHO) staff and well-known HIV researchers had died in the crash.

Friends and colleagues of Dutch HIV researcher Dr Joep Lange took to social media to express shock that he was among the victims. Dr Lange had been researching HIV for 30 years.

‘‘He was a kind man and a true humanitarian,’’ US medical professor Seema Yasmin wrote in a series of tweets dedicated to him. ‘‘How do we measure how much a person has done for humanity? People like Joep change the course of epidemics.’’ Dr Yasmin could not be immediately contacted.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-headi
ng-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37nRi5jhE

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Friday, July 18, 2014 1:54 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How many of you see the play-out of fossil fuel as a catalyst for conflict?

Just the free market doing its thang, dontchya know

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Friday, July 18, 2014 4:06 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Crap.

There is just no bottom to this bucket of awful.

I don't think this was intentional. No one benefits. This was probably gross incompetence by, likely, Ukrainian separatists, and the only thing to hope for is that this horrid tragedy will cause some people to start deescalating this hot mess.

Malaysian Airlines, flying over that area to save money? If that's true, I don't even know what they were thinking.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 8:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.
So, not a history buff, eh?

More than most, actually. I see no citation, which leads me to conclude that you don't have squat.

Again.

But here's a hint for you children who might not have been taught this...

Newsweek Rewind: When Korean Air Lines Flight 007 Was Shot Down

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:10 AM

ELVISCHRIST

A history buff who has zero recollection of America shooting down an airliner full of civilians?

Huh.

My guess is that if a Democrat were president when it happened, you'd still be crying about it. But for some amazing reason, you can't remember it at all now. That selective memory must be very convenient for you.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
A history buff who has zero recollection of America shooting down an airliner full of civilians?

Huh.

My guess is that if a Democrat were president when it happened, you'd still be crying about it. But for some amazing reason, you can't remember it at all now. That selective memory must be very convenient for you.

And still, no citation of any sort where the US KNOWINGLY shot down a civilian airliner.

Color me not surprised, at all.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:35 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Iran 1988, rap. It was new to me as well - though I was 4 at the time.

The BIG question now is whether the separatists managed to get their hands on the weaponry for this attack from captured Ukrainian stockpiles - or whether it came directly from Russia. If the latter, this could be the beginning of the end for Putin. Either way this is permanently damaging to him.

Another big question is how many, if any, US citizens were on board.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Another big question is how many, if any, US citizens were on board.

Supposedly 23.

And, for Rappy to find a way to dismiss:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

(and btw, NO, it was not 'knowingly' shot down as a plane full of civiees, but then I'm guessing this new Malaysian one wasn't either)

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:51 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

The latest I heard was that warnings were issued, but airlines want to save money and flying over Ukraine is the most direct route to Asia and so forth.

Now all airlines have issued a No Fly zone over Ukraine. Something tells me that the Malaysia Airlines officials may have known about the call for caution flying over that region.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
A passenger jet cruising at 32,000 feet taken out with a missile! That's a hellava war they got going on over there in Ukraine. I bet none of the passengers who boarded in Amsterdam had any clue their jet would be flying over a war zone.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 9:57 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware, requiring synced radar, a fixed pad or at least a mobile rocket launcher and a command structure to give the word to push the button or not. This wasn't Igor and Dimitry , getting faced on Vodka and randomly pushing buttons for kicks. The ones who let this dog off its chain had serious military training.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 10:05 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Reports have been issued by Feinstein that the Separatists have claimed downing 7 or more aircraft in recent months of hostilities.

Gives new meaning to "guns don't kill people..."

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Question is, did Russia do it? That would make them look like trigger-happy bullies. If it was Ukraine, that'll put them in the doghouse on the World stage and their situation will worsen...

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Friday, July 18, 2014 10:34 AM

Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 10:44 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Malaysian Airlines, flying over that area to save money? If that's true, I don't even know what they were thinking.

Of course they knew. Everyone knew the separatists shot down 2 Ukrainian military planes this week, one of them carrying 50 people. Malaysian Airline officials made the decision to fly that route based on MONEY, and the pilot did what he was told. Horrifically irresponsible, but why anyone would expect anything different from that half-ass airlines is beyond me.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

You're making a big assumption there, aren't you? I wonder if this is going to be like the Syrian gas attack, where the west was so quick to jump on the bandwagon that Assad did it, only to see all of their "evidence" melt away. Yanno, kinda like Saddam's "WMD" and "Chavez' snipers" and Noriega's "major drug running operation".

SGG

Quote:
I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.

If that's the case, then either the operators were brain-dead, blind drunk, or from Kiev. Because Kiev would be the only entity with an interest in shooting down an airplane, in an effort to blame separatists and involve the west. Yanno, kind of like the gas attack in Syria which should have precipitated bombing Assad.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Malaysian Airline officials made the decision to fly that route based on MONEY, and the pilot did what he was told.

So much for the "Your safety is our first priority" bullshit.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

That was BRITISH airlines.

They wash their hands of anything Malaysian Airlines might do!

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?
You're making a big assumption there, aren't you? I wonder if this is going to be like the Syrian gas attack, where the west was so quick to jump on the bandwagon that Assad did it, only to see all of their "evidence" melt away. Yanno, kinda like Saddam's "WMD" and "Chavez' snipers" and Noriega's "major drug running operation".

SGG
Quote:
I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.
If that's the case, then either the operators were brain-dead, blind drunk, or from Kiev. Because Kiev would be the only entity with an interest in shooting down an airplane, in an effort to blame separatists and involve the west. Yanno, kind of like the gas attack in Syria which should have precipitated bombing Assad.

The gas attack I spoke of was carried out by the Syrians. 55 gallon drums with explosives and chemical weapons were dropped from helicopters. Something the rebels did not have, remember? I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained the people who did it so we are responsible.

The missile system was given to the separatists by Putin. The belief at the moment is that the Russians moved these weapons to the borders very recently. Apparently the Ukrainian military does not possess these types of systems. The Russians have a vested interest in keeping Ukraine unstable so they are providing the rebels with sophisticated weaponry. This makes them culpable. I don't think anyone thinks they wanted to kill civilians and of course it was a mistake. They still did it and the Russian policy in the Ukraine and weapons provided by them led to it.

I see once again you are trying to provide cover for those responsible and wishing you could point your finger west as you like to do to avoid looking east.

Let's try a little logic here shall we. Everyone knows the Rebels do not have jets so no one but the rebels had any reason to be looking up.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story

Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry’s press service said Friday.

"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.

“The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk],” the ministry said.

Then we go to Itar-Tass which reported that civil flights in the air space of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions cannot be performed as the relevant communications infrastructure was destroyed there, a source from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) told ITAR-TASS on Thursday.

“Kiev operates all air traffic control services and it is unclear how this plane (the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border Thursday night. — ITAR-TASS) could appear in the area,” he said.

“During the combat actions in Donetsk’s airport the communication tower, a part of the united air control service was blown up,” he said adding that “planes cannot fly there.”

On July 8, Ukraine’s State Aviation Service banned all flights over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions aiming to provide “adequate safety and security for all flights of civil aircraft in favor of state aviation.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council took a decision to close the airspace over the area of the so-called anti-terror operation to commercial flights three days ago, Rosaviatsia reported.

This goes back to our post from last night in which we wondered just why and how did it happen that flight MH-17 diverted from its usual trajectory to fly over what was effectively restricted airspace. This also is the topic of a follow up piece by Bloomberg released overnight in which it was noted that "Malaysian Air Flight Took Route Avoided by Qantas, Asiana:"

Qantas hasn’t used the route for a few months, said Andrew McGinnes, a spokesman for the Australian carrier, while Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it has been detouring for “quite some time.” Korean Air Lines Co. and Asiana Airlines Inc. said in statements they have been avoiding the area since March 3.

One hopes that all lingering questions about the flight path, and where the instructions to change it came from, will be answered when the contents of the flight black box are released.

And finally, as RT reported, the national governor of the Donetsk region, Pavel Gubarev, admitted that while the separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report.

We will ignore circulating reports of two Ukraine jets that may have followed the Boeing as there is, at least for now, zero direct or circumstantial evidence validating this story aside from one Twitter account which has since been deleted.

In brief the plot thickens, and all that matters now is whose propaganda, read media outlets, will be more persuasive although in reality even that is moot: in the echo chambers of ideology, most people already have their mind made up as to "who" the shooter was.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/final-moments-flight-mh-17-ru
ssian-side-story

How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The gas attack I spoke of was carried out by the Syrians. 55 gallon drums with explosives and chemical weapons were dropped from helicopters. Something the rebels did not have, remember?

The gas attack I'M speaking of was the Sarin attack, and helicopters weren't involved. That gas attack YOU'RE speaking of is (I assume) the "industrial chemical" attack, and- to be quite honest- I've never seen any credible evidence that helicopters were involved. But, if you have pictures... radar data... anything to corroborate potentially self-serving statements from jihadists on the ground... please bring it here, with links.

Quote:
It wasn't I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained the people who did it so we are responsible.

So, although we train and arm people, we're not responsible for what they do afterwards, correct?

I just want to make sure that I understand the point that you're making.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 11:55 AM

AGENTROUKA

The thing I don't get is why they would do it.

Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?

What would anybody have to gain?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:00 PM

I conjure all they saw was a dot, and the button man figured it had to be fair game.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:02 PM

Glancing at your post I see you wish to provide doubt to Putin's involvement. I am in no way going to sift through all of your post. Suggestive posting style, remember.

I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right. It might be fun to go back later and cut and paste much of what you say to show how your bias shapes your delusions.

The new term for the separatists is Putin surrogates.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:10 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I conjure all they saw was a dot, and the button man figured it had to be fair game.

" If it flies, it dies."

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:32 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Glancing at your post I see you wish to provide doubt to Putin's involvement. I am in no way going to sift through all of your post. Suggestive posting style, remember. I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right. It might be fun to go back later and cut and paste much of what you say to show how your bias shapes your delusions.

So, rather than discussing the facts at-hand, you (once again) take issue with my supposed "style".

Of course, this isn't MY style, I'm quoting ZeroHedge's contributors. They bring up several significant points: The Youtube clip of so-called "terrorists" discussing the downing of the airliner is of unknown provenance. Given the lack of background or corroborating detail, the Youtube clip could have been completely fabricated.

The other points I personally find significant is that Kiev has Buk batteries in the region, and that Kiev is in control of the air traffic. Since the communications tower at the Donetsk Airport was destroyed (I do remember reading about the fighting there) who directed the Malaysian airliner to take that particular route, if anyone?

So, given the wobbly nature of the "facts" so far established, of course I'm shedding doubt on Russian involvement. It's far too early to pin blame on anyone.

By the way, you seemed to have said...

Quote:
So, although we train and arm people, we're not responsible for what they do afterwards, correct? I just want to make sure that I understand the point that you're making.

You haven't answered that question.

And finally...

Quote:
I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right.

As rappy so rightly says, science isn't a popularity contest, and neither is the truth. At one time, nearly everyone alive thought the earth was the center of the universe, and that disease was caused by a curse or bad air (mal aria). Or, as my hubby likes to say about popular (but wrong) opinion: A billion flies eat shit. So much for popular opinion!

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The thing I don't get is why they would do it.
Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?
What would anybody have to gain?

This wouldn't be the first time a nation staged an incident for the sole purpose of blaming someone else. If it works, it will openly pull NATO into the fray and line up the EU on the side of full sanctions against Russia.

AFA it being awful... the Kiev government has already killed something like 500 of it's own civilians, whom they have repeatedly termed "subhumans". What's another 300?

How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:47 PM

My point is what you chose to look at so you may try and mount a defense of Putin. This is your agenda. I chose to let my logic along with the logic of most reporting on this influence my current beliefs. Like I said earlier, only Putin’s Surrogates are worried about being attacked from above. As for the rest I do not wish to rehash it with you.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:52 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

Oh I see, you rephrased the question, inserting the word 'knowingly', haha. Well nobody 'knowingly' shot down this airliner either, so your attempted distinction is pointless. Listen if you haven't already, to the released recordings of the separatists discussing the shooting of the plane: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28362872

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:54 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
The thing I don't get is why they would do it.

Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?

What would anybody have to gain?

Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days. Sadly their radar capabilities (unlike Ukraine and Russia's) didn't have the ability to read friend or foe. They just saw a blip on the radar, and shot at it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 12:58 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Like I said earlier, only Putin’s Surrogates are worried about being attacked from above.

In other words, Kiev isn't at all worried about Russian attack from the air??? Kiev is so confident that Russia WON'T attack that all of their protestations and cries for help, pleas to be saved from the big bad Russians are just so much theater? That Kiev itself doesn't believe Russia is a threat?

GOOD TO KNOW!

Next time Kiev wrings its hands and blames Russia for ... whatever it chooses to blame Russia for... we'll know that it's all just a hoax. Kiev has no worries at all - according to you!

Select to view spoiler:

Which of course doesn't explain why KIEV has Buk anti-aircraft missile batteries on it's eastern front. Yanno, exactly the kind of anti-aircraft missile, with full radar support, that shot the Malyasian airliner down

(And I can't believe you made such a blunder. Prolly something about the bias you bring to the table.)

ALSO, you seem to have said that although we train and arm people, we're really not responsible for what they do afterwards. That's another logical error. I wonder if you've figured out exactly how.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 1:04 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days. Sadly their radar capabilities (unlike Ukraine and Russia's) didn't have the ability to read friend or foe. They just saw a blip on the radar, and shot at it.

That was my initial impression and what seems to make the most sense.

I get the impression that SIGNY is arguing that Ukraine shot down the plane on purpose in order to blame separatists and stir up international involvement.

Somehow that seems like far more risk than potential gain. This is not an impossible crime to solve, after all.

It doesn't make logical sense.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 1:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.

Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

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Friday, July 18, 2014 1:15 PM