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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.

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Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

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…..Sig
In other words, Kiev isn't at all worried about Russian attack from the air??? Kiev is so confident that Russia WON'T attack that all of their protestations and cries for help, pleas to be saved from the big bad Russians are just so much theater? That Kiev itself doesn't believe Russia is a threat?
GOOD TO KNOW!

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....Sig
Next time Kiev wrings its hands and blames Russia for ... whatever it chooses to blame Russia for... we'll know that it's all just a hoax. Kiev has no worries at all - according to you!

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….Sig
Which of course doesn't explain why KIEV has Buk anti-aircraft missile batteries on it's eastern front. Yanno, exactly the kind of anti-aircraft missile, with full radar support, that shot the Malyasian airliner down

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….Sig
(And I can't believe you made such a blunder. Prolly something about the bias you bring to the table.)
ALSO, you seem to have said that although we train and arm people, we're really not responsible for what they do afterwards. That's another logical error. I wonder if you've figured out exactly how.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.

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Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

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There is evidence that they had one (a Buk).

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What I imply is even though it is early in the process, it is apparent who is responsible.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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What I imply is even though it is early in the process, it is apparent who is responsible.

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Subjective post. Just like everything else you post.

Yanno, when somebody says "everyone knows" or "it's apparent", that is kind of a signal that there is nothing behind that opinion except more opinion. Try not to argue that way, or think that way. It's intellectually weak.

Also, I've asked you several times to clarify your statements. You either won't, or you can't, but don't blame me for your failure to communicate. Since you don't seem interested in discussing the facts, I'll just let the rest of your posts slide.

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But you keep focusing on the what suits your agenda.

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Originally posted by second:
the Netherlands is a major tax haven for Russian oligarchs, and a center for activity verging on money laundering that has the ability to hit influential Russians in the pocketbook.

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Originally posted by second:
The weak link in Obama administration efforts to punish Russian behavior in Ukraine has always been the reluctance of America's allies in Europe to crack down hard. Europe is closer to Russia geographically, and much more interconnected with it. That means European countries have the ability to enact sanctions that bite much harder than American sanctions, but it also means that European countries pay a higher price for getting tough than does the United States.

So the impact of the downing of MH17 on European politics is probably the key way in which the tragedy will affect the geopolitical situation around Ukraine. And we're already starting to see it play out.

The largest share of the dead are citizens of the Netherlands, a small country that lost a greater share of its population yesterday than the United States did on 9/11. Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte issued one of the harshest statements of any world leader, vowing to ensure that the perpetrators are identified and punished. www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915193/a-greater-share-of-netherlands-populatio
n-was-killed-than-the-us/in/5677250

The Netherlands is not a geopolitical powerhouse, but they do have interests that bear directly on Russia-EU relations. One is that the Netherlands is a major tax haven for Russian oligarchs, and a center for activity verging on money laundering that has the ability to hit influential Russians in the pocketbook.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-05/russia-knows-europe-sanctions-ineffe
ctive-with-tax-havens.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by G:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-18/malaysian-air-shooting
-russian-news-media-tries-crazy-theories

Russian Media Goes Far Out to Explain Malaysia Airlines Disaster

Russians awoke Friday to news reports that bumbling Ukrainian troops had shot down a Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK) jet after mistaking it for President Vladimir Putin’s official plane. Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a “planned provocation.” Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysian Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.

Most of these weird news reports aren’t coming from tabloids or fringe websites. They’re coming from Russia’s leading news outlets, which are almost entirely under state control. The report on the mistaken identification of Putin’s plane, for example, aired on Channel 1, the country’s most popular TV network. The journalists never explained why the Ukrainians might have though Putin was in the neighborhood, since he was attending a well-publicized summit in Brazil on the day of the crash.

State-owned news agency Itar-Tass, meanwhile, put out a report disputing suggestions that separatist rebels may have hit the plane with a Buk surface-to-air missile. It quoted a spokesman for the rebels as saying they had no weapons capable of shooting down an airliner at 33,000 feet—overlooking the fact that Itar-Tass itself had reported previously that the rebels had seized Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military installation.

Someone at the state-run All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Co. even appears to have edited a Russian-language Wikipedia article on plane crashes today, to say that the plane “was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.”

And Sara Firth, a London-based correspondent for Russia’s international TV network RT, said today she was quitting because it was spreading “shockingly obvious misinformation.” She’s the second RT journalist to leave this year while accusing the Kremlin of shaping the network’s news coverage.

>>> To outsiders, Russian media coverage of the Ukraine crisis may seem farfetched, conspiracy-laden, and contradictory.<<< (snort!).

But it has effectively persuaded Russians that the Ukrainian rebels need their help to fight brutal repression by Kiev. “Aggressive and deceptive propaganda, worse than anything I witnessed in the Soviet Union,” is how Lev Gudkov, director of the Levada polling group, described it to the BBC last month. Indeed, Levada surveys show that most Russians think their country should be doing even more to support the rebels, including direct military invention in Ukraine.

Until now, this has helped Putin withstand a storm of international criticism and sanctions that risk harm to Russia’s ailing economy. Yet the inflamed public opinion could also make it harder for Russia to back away from the rebels if investigators find that they shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 aboard. Putin may find that his support for the rebellion has unleashed an “uncontrollable force,” says Angela Stent, director of the center for Eurasian, Russian, and East European Studies at the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service.

“As pro-Putin media and social network trolls invent increasingly fantastical versions” of the crash, writes Bloomberg View columnist Leonid Bershidsky, “Russia risks becoming a pariah even to developing countries that have sympathized with its anti-American stance.”

A major source of questionable information about the crisis has come from state-controlled Channel One. The network recently drew condemnation for a report claiming that Ukrainian troops had crucified a small boy by nailing him to a billboard in the city of Slavyansk. No other news organization could find witnesses to the incident, which Channel One claimed took place before a crowd in the city’s central square. Among other the dubious elements in the report was a glaring issue: There’s no billboard in Slavyansk’s central square.

In its report Friday on the Ukrainians’ allegedly mistaking the Malaysian Air jet for Putin’s plane, Channel One says that the Boeing 777 could be confused with the Ilyushin-96 used by the Russian president if seen from a distance. It would be hard to mistake them close-up, however, since the Ilyushin has four engines and the Boeing has two. Not to mention the Russian presidential insignia and other differentiating marks that would be easily visible at close range. Yet in a separate report, Channel One suggested that a Ukrainian fighter jet might have shot down the plane and even offered quotes from villagers near the crash site saying another plane had been flying alongside the Boeing before the explosion.

Out in Russian cyberspace, the theories get even weirder. One of the most fanciful contends that no crash occurred and that the scene was staged with corpses from the earlier Malaysian Air flight, which were sprinkled with fake passports and other items to throw investigators off the trail.

The media have “juggled different versions: Ukrainian fighter, Ukrainian rocket attack on Putin, and so on,” columnist Oleg Kashin writes on the Russian-language Free Press website. “The more versions there are, the less clear it is, and the more time there is to work out the final version that will become canonical.”

Obvious Ruskie Tom foolery. In any event (after I stop laughing) I will keep an open mind until we have more FACTS.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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But you keep focusing on the what suits your agenda.

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I'm provding balance, because otherwise you'd all rush off a mental cliff together in a spasm of assumption and emotion. If it wasn't for me, you'd have no countervailing information at all. And all I'm saying is- wait for the facts to come in, and keep an open mind (difficult as that seems to be). Don't be stampeded, as you have apparently been so many times before. Capice?

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
As usual, Comrade Snigy is there to powder Putin's balls. Her false-flag scenario is taken directly from the absurd propagandists on Russian State TV. They are even now claiming that it wasn't a missile attack at all. The plane just blew up for some mysterious reason. Now Putin's trained intelligence agents are sifting thru the wreckage and removing all evidence of the missile. And the other useful-idiot thugs are ransacking the luggage, stealing everything they can get their grubby mitts on. Look Oleg ... it says d e o d o r a n t. Vhat is dat?

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I notice caution does not apply to you when you weave your propaganda scenarios about the CIA or any American government intentions. Why is that? Why do you manufacture all the different types of foul play plots perpetrated by Americans but wish to proceed with caution here?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I notice caution does not apply to you when you weave your propaganda scenarios about the CIA or any American government intentions. Why is that? Why do you manufacture all the different types of foul play plots perpetrated by Americans but wish to proceed with caution here?

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Because when I accuse the USA of doing something, there is solid evidence behind it- leaked recordings, photographic evidence, historical documents etc. For example, it's a little hard to deny that Saudi Arabia has been funding jihadists, and that we did too. That isn't speculation, its historical fact.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

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Passengers

Malaysia Airlines listed the nationality of MH17 passengers as:

189 Dutch.
29 Malaysians.
28 Australians.
12 Indonesians.
9 Britons.
4 Germans.
4 Belgians.
3 Filipinos.
1 Canadian.
1 American.
1 New Zealander.

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Moscow has voiced anger over being blamed by Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott for the downing of a Malaysia passenger jet over eastern Ukraine that killed all 298 people on board, calling his comments "unacceptable".

"Without bothering himself about evidence and operating only on speculation, Mr T. Abbott assigned guilt," the foreign ministry said in a statement. "Abbott's statements are unacceptable."

On Friday, Australia issued a blunt ultimatum to Moscow and was reconsidering Vladimir Putin's attendance at the G20 in November as the world reeled from the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, killing 298 people - 28 of them Australians.

Declaring the tragedy was not an accident, Mr Abbott said Russia now faced a crucial test of its international citizenship, as he called on the international community to take the strongest possible action to ensure such an "appalling crime" can never be repeated.

The forceful comments came after Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop emerged from a meeting with Russia's ambassador to Australia Vladimir Morozov, to reveal Moscow had denied the involvement of pro-Russian rebels and attempted to lay the blame at Ukraine's feet.
An armed pro-Russian separatist stands at the site of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash.

Overnight, a US official in Washington said a preliminary US intelligence assessment indicated that MH17 was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists.

With the weight of the events clearly visible on his face, Mr Abbott said he was angry at the loss of innocent Australian lives and was deeply unsatisfied at Russia's denials of any culpability.

He said he took the dimmest possible view of countries that facilitated the killing of Australian citizens - a reference to the use of a sophisticated Russian-supplied surface-to-air missile system to shoot the airliner from the sky at its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet.
Russia's ambassador to Australia Vladimir Morozov, pictured in March, meet with Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop in Sydney on Friday.

Confirming a total death toll of 298, Mr Abbott listed the nationalities as "Netherlands 155, Malaysia 43, Indonesia 12, United Kingdom 9, Germany 4, Belgium 4, Philippines 3, Canada 1." There are still 41 whose nationalities remain unconfirmed.

"The advice I have is that the final number of Australians aboard is 28," he said.

Of those, seven were from Queensland, 10 from Victoria, seven from Western Australia, three from NSW and one from the Northern Territory.

He said a national day of mourning has been agreed to with a date to be fixed and announced that he and Governor-General Peter Cosgrove would attend church services on Saturday and Sunday.

Earlier, Mr Abbott had convened a snap meeting of the National Security Committee in Canberra after news broke that a Boeing 777 flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur had been shot down over east Ukraine.

It will also use its membership of the UN Security Council to push for absolute unfettered access to the crash site, the black box, and any witnesses, in a move already provoking Russian resistance.

The atrocity has sparked questions over why the Malaysian carrier was still using a flight path over the Ukrainian war zone, when other airlines, including Qantas, had changed their flight paths in recent months due to an increase in the intensity of fighting in the area.

But it has also brought harsh criticism of Russia's sponsorship of the bloody Ukrainian civil war. It has been widely speculated that Russian-backed rebels used a Russian-supplied missile to bring down the aircraft.

Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte, one of at least three world leaders with whom Mr Abbott spoke on Friday, said his country was devastated.

"The whole of the Netherlands is in mourning ... this beautiful summer day has ended in the blackest possible way," he said.

Ukraine's Petro Poroshenko, whose country is being ripped apart by the Russian-backed rebels, described it bluntly as "a terrorist attack".

"I want to draw your attention to the fact the we call it neither accident nor catastrophe."

Shortly after the National Security Committee meeting, an ashen-faced Mr Abbott made a sombre but determined statement to the federal Parliament vowing to pursue those responsible and advising that Australia would use its membership of the United Nations Security Council - of which the Russian Federation is a permanent member - to secure full co-operation from the Russian government and rebels controlling the crash site.

"Australia will be working at the United Nations Security Council for a binding resolution calling for a full and impartial investigation with full access to the site, with full access to the debris, with full access to the black box and with full access to all individuals who might be in a position to shed light on this terrible event," Mr Abbott said.

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten mirrored the comments pledging unconditional support for the government in whatever action it decides to take up to and including the option of revoking Mr Putin's invitation to the G20 in Brisbane in November.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called for a full and independent investigation into the atrocity as other world leaders also expressed profound sorrow for countries who lost nationals and used tough language to condemn the Russian-backed insurgency.

The West's response depends on whether Russia continues to deny the involvement of its secessionist supporters and obstructs the pursuit of justice.

One senior source said if that were to happen, things could get "messy" and the West would likely have to pursue significantly tighter sanctions aimed at Mr Putin.

Peter Jennings, executive director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said direct military action was unlikely, though the West could look at providing military equipment to the Ukrainians.

"It's a serious geopolitical issue. It lifts Russia back to being the bad boy threat of the Soviet days," he said.

"[But] neither NATO nor the US has an appetite to do anything on the ground. It would be a combination of tougher sanctions and more open support of Ukrainians, for example, providing them with their own military hardware."

One example might be to provide the Ukrainians with Patriot anti-missile batteries, as the the Ukrainian air force does not have strong self-defence capabilities.

The sophistication of the missile system that shot down the plane pointed to the possibility that Moscow was supplying the secessionists, he said, which also raised the question of whether tighter arms controls were needed.

And in the longer term, the West might have to look at more robust warning and alert rules for international aviation, given the Malaysia Airlines flight had passed through risky air space.

Mr Abbott said the perpetrators had to be brought to justice for the families and the world.

"Madam Speaker, we owe it to the dead and their families, we owe it to the peace and stability of the wider world to establish the facts and we will do all we humanly can to bring that about," he told Parliament.

He also left little doubt as to the message he wanted understood in Moscow.

"Let me conclude with this, the bullying of small countries by big ones, the trampling of justice and decency in the pursuit of national aggrandisement and reckless indifference to human life should have no place in our world."

Ms Bishop called in Russia's ambassador talks in Sydney, emerging afterwards to reveal that Moscow denied that pro-Russian separatists were culpable.

Asked if she was satisfied with Russia's explanation that it had occurred in Ukrainian territory, Mrs Bishop was blunt.

"I understand it came down in the eastern Ukraine, which is a separatist-held region, pro-Russian separatist area," she said.

"What we are calling for and what we intend to establish through the UN Security Council is an investigation that would get to the bottom of who was responsible for this unspeakable crime, and that they be brought to account and we seek the support and full cooperation of Russia, Ukraine, the international community."

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware

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Atypically, I must agree with you here.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Of course, this isn't MY style, I'm quoting ZeroHedge's contributors.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
ZeroHedge's "contributors" is one person using the pseudonym "Tyler Durden"

Really trustworthy.

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….Sig
I noticed, THUGR, that the link you provided was from 2013, and that the USA did NOT attack within a matter of days, but quietly slunk off. Meanwhile, the value of the intelligence... 'helpfully' provided by Israel... evaporated.

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….Sig
First of all, I was involved in a project relating to chemical weapons detection... we had a small contract with the DOD, and so I made it a point to learn as much as I could about the topic. At the time I said that sarin is made with stabilizers, and that the purity, contaminants, and stabilizers are characteristic of the manufacturer. Secondly, an army attack would be with shells of standardize manufacture, not a hodge-podge of parts stuck together. Thirdly, Turkey itself reported arresting jihadists WITH SARIN at the border. Given all that, it should be able to definitively arrive at who made and used the sarin.

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….Sig
Now, you weren't there then, so I forgive you for not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground, but it sure does get tiring repeating myself to idiots. I'm not talking out of my ass, I make it a point to know and understand the ins and outs of a topic before I post.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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There is evidence that they had one (a Buk).

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You need more than a BUK battery, you need at least track-mounted radar trucks and a command system. Also, you need training. According to the governor of the region, the battery that the separatists have wasn't even working. (That was in a post from Zerohedge.) Well, the governor might be blowing smoke, for all I know. But meanwhile, Kiev has several working systems right in the area. That's kind of a big gap in your thinking if you don't take that into account.

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Originally posted by kpo:


It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by kpo:


It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

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Not unlike the White House is w/ the IRS agents who targeted certain Americans...

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
subjective posting

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Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...? Don't agree, Sig?

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I used to give a class on detection in the military. I had a little testers’ kit and everything.

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It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

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What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.

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Not to worry. We will know it all soon enough.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.

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Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

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Reports of looting are now emerging from the crash site of MH17 as bodies remain strewn across the area more than 24 hours after the disaster.

Adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs, Anton Gerashchenko has reported that "terrorists" have begun collecting valuables belonging to the victims of the tragedy.

"Death-hunters collecting Were not Only Cash money and Jewelry of the crashed Boing passengers died but Also the credit cards of the Victims [sic]," he wrote on his Facebook page.

The reports come alongside those of a chaotic investigation being conducted among the wheat fields at the crash site.

Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s special monitoring mission for Ukraine, told ABC News Radio that bodies at the crash site were already “starting to decompose in the fields”.

''It is astonishing to go there and this scene with no recovery going on,'' Mr Bociukiw said.

He said there there appeared to be no tampering with bodies at the site except markers were being placed near to them or to body parts. He said debris seemed to still be in place. He said the crash site could be up to six kilometres wide.

''It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on, we are going into day two or three now,'' Mr Bociukiw said.

He said it was disturbing to find no credible leader in the separatist-held area to establish the facts at the site.
There have been reports of looting and gunfire at the site of the wreckage.

Questions remained about how many bodies were there and the location of the black box. Mr Bociukiw's delegation needed to find out whether it was safe enough for international experts to begin their investigation into the disaster. He said many of the separatists appeared ''very aggressive'', under the influence of alcohol and possibly drugs.

''It is kind of the world's biggest crime scene right now,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

He said his team had been in touch with Malaysian senior officials whose prime concern was that the bodies were treated in a human way.

''One immediate requirement would be refrigerated trailers - anything where these bodies could be moved - so they don't continue to lie there, exposed to the elements,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

He said, 25 workers from the OSCE had access to the crash site for just 75 minutes before they were forced to leave. He said a gun shot was fired into the air as they left.

OSCE council chairman, Thomas Greminger told Reuters that workers assessing the scene "did not have the kind of access that they expected. They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job. The crash site is not sealed off".

Denjen Doroschenko, an Australian journalist working in Ukraine told Fairfax Media in a radio interview that separatist organisations on the ground were "clueless about how to control a disaster area at all".

Dr Geoff Dell, an air crash investigation expert from Central Queensland University, said in any crash investigation it is critical that all on site know what they are doing.

"The longer it stays unexamined the more likely it gets contaminated, especially when there is people that aren’t really familiar with accident scenes, stomping all over it," he said.

"The longer that goes on the more likely something you’re looking for is either destroyed, or stolen."

He referred to Lauda Air Flight 004 which crashed in Thailand in 1991, in which a critical component was never found due to looting.

"Overnight a large percentage of the wreckage was pilfered. Pieces of the airplane that you couldn’t for the life of you think someone would want to steal, were taken," he said.

Dr Dell said it was crucial that proper protocols were followed, such as protecting the perimeter to keep people out and setting up a grid.

"You draw up a grid so you can set up the relationship with the wreckage and identify exactly where each critical piece of evidence came from," he said.

Armed guards are reportedly guarding the crash site near Torez, in a remote eastern area of Ukraine, where it is said the typical investigation grid is absent.

Dr Dell said bodies that are still at the scene pose a different risk, as the risk of infection and disease to investigators on the crash scene increases.

"It's inevitable some contamination will take place during the rescue of removal of the bodies," he said.

"In other parts of the world there is less awareness of that, and I wouldn't be surprised given what we’ve seen, if the crash site hasn't already been substantially altered by the actions of the people in the first response."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...? Don't agree, Sig?

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Russia has already said it won't take custody of the box. This has been in the news for at least 10 hours... DO try to keep up!!

Also, doing what I do, I know about COC (Chain of Custody) procedures.... do you?

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Lookit, I know you all... and I mean almost ALL... have got a hard on for Russia and for me. But you're letting it cloud your judgment, as usual.

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As far as satellite and radar- I'll bet that region is wired up to its eyeballs. But nobody will say exactly what they know, because that reveals their surveillance capabilities.

Didn't think of that, didja THUGR?? Of course not.

*mutters 'ASSHOLES' and walks away*

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A team of international observers say pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have limited their access to the wreckage of a Malaysia Airlines plane.

An OSCE spokesman said access to the site had been controlled by armed men, with one firing shots into the air.

It is believed flight MH17 crashed after being hit by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine on Thursday.

All 298 people - including 80 children - on board died.

The Boeing 777 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It fell between Krasni Luch in Luhansk region and Shakhtarsk in the neighbouring region of Donetsk.

....

Michael Bociurkiw, a member of the OSCE team, said their access had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the site.

"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Mr Bociurkiw told journalists.

The 25 monitors withdrew after just over an hour, having been been unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash, he added.

Several bodies had been marked but left exposed to the elements, Mr Bociurkiw said, and rescue workers were unable to indicate whose responsibility it would be to remove them.

Thomas Greminger, the Swiss chairman of the OSCE's permanent council, told the BBC they would continue to work to see that an international investigation could take place.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

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Works both ways Chris. "big brainwashed lug" "assholes" even "son" is damned condescending.

But I take your point: name calling doesn't make someone more right, often just makes the person look petty.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.

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Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise

I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

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I think we both made our points and it is feeling more like an attack to me.

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It wasn't I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained he people who did it so we are responsible.

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Apparently the Ukrainian military does not possess these types of systems

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
When you behave more respectfully and can learn to discuss issues like a grownup, I'll treat you like a grownup. Until then, you're just a snotty little asshole kid who should be slapped upside the head, as far as I'm concerned.

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