Accident or Not? Malaysian Airliner shot down. by chrisisall

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

MAL4, if you can't distinguish between someone who sticks to facts (or tries to) and someone who posts sheer blithering idiocy, then you have a rappy-like problem yourself.

I know that the truth can be found by detailed analysis ...
In the case of Syria - detailed analysis of the shells and sarin in Syria,
In the case of the Odessa Trades Union fire, analysis of photos and videos,
In THIS case, analysis of the debris on the ground, radar and satellite imagery.

Something really happened. We don't need to depend on what the White House says, or what the Kremlin says, if we behave like investigators and stick to what is real and provable. There are questions that can be asked -

Why did the flight deviate from its original plan? Where did the instructions come from, if anywhere? (Tapes of Ukraine air traffic control confiscated by Ukrainian officials.)

What kind of system was used? If it was an earlier version of the BUK... well, the region is littered with them. Kiev uses them and has several active installations in the area. If it was a more advanced version (as Obama said) then few entities have access and training, which narrows the field considerably.

Where did the rockets come from? I'm reasonably sure that since this was a border area, both Russia and Ukraine have radar, and the USA has satellite imagery. Hand-waving references and "conclusions" without evidence from any side are non-persuasive.

Who has an interest in making this happen?

I'm sure you can think of other probative questions that NEED to be answered before blame can be assigned.

I assume that you want to talk about this on the merits of the information.
--------------------

Quote:
Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...? Don't agree, Sig? -MAL4

Russia has already said it won't take custody of the box. This has been in the news for at least 10 hours... DO try to keep up!! Also, doing what I do, I know about COC (Chain of Custody) procedures.... do you? -SIGNY

Who do they hand it TO? Since both the USA and Russia have agreed on an international investigation, that should fixed soon.

Quote:
Chris - how do you go after THGRRL and not comment on what a superior asshat sig has become? Right or wrong, there's no fixing being a jerk, and she is irredeemably that.-MAL4

Oh yeah, MAL4, because after being called "delusional", having actual information that I bring to the baord dismissed, and being called an "asshat" and a "jerk" (wow, engage in name-calling much?) I'm the one at fault.

Quote:
Anyhoo, Miss Expert, about Russia...
The separatists found it within hours of the crash. That was mentioned in one of the first articles I read on Thursday. Why hasn't it been given to Malaysian Airlines yet, a full 2 days later? It hasn't! So get your hands off your woody for Putin and try and keep up, and think about where it is and why.

I addressed that already.

Quote:
As far as satellite and radar- I'll bet that region is wired up to its eyeballs. But nobody will say exactly what they know, because that reveals their surveillance capabilities. Didn't think of that, didja THUGR?? Of course not. * mutters 'ASSHOLES' and walks away* -SIGNY

Yep, you and THGRRL are what you and Rap used to be. Didja think of that, Chris?

But you didn't address the issue of all that surveillance data not being available.

Quote:
Anyhoo again, try to keep up again. The US has already stated that spy satellites tracked the missile and they know where it was launched from.-MAL4

Not seen that anywhere lately. Has the claim been withdrawn, or at least been made invisible? Because if Obama had such definitive data on-hand, then surely he would be pointing to it at every moment.

Quote:
WASHINGTON — The United States government has concluded that the passenger jet felled over Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile launched from rebel-held territory and most likely provided by Russia to pro-Moscow separatists, officials said on Friday.

While American officials are still investigating the chain of events leading to the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on Thursday, they pointed to a series of indicators of Russian involvement. Among other things, military and intelligence officials said there was mounting evidence that a Ukrainian military plane shot down three days earlier had been fired upon from inside Russian territory by the same sort of missile battery used to bring down the civilian jet."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane
-ukraine.html

This para is full of conflated points. Yes, the plane was show down by a Russian-made missile. So what? EVERYONE has Russian-made missiles there, even Kiev.

"Most likely provided by Russia". There is no evidence to support this. The only battery that the separatists claim to have has was captured from Kiev. Where's Russia in all of this? I claim bullshit.

"Ukrainian military plane shot down ... from inside Russia... by the same sort of battery"
Kiev fired on a Russian village and killed several people. Russia warned the west there would be a reply. That was the reply. What does that have to do with this? I claim bullshit again.

I'm going to point to a very similar incident in Syria, in which Obama came out, trumpets blaring, to announce that the USA had concluded that sarin had been used and had (almost certainly) been launched from an area controlled by Assad forces, that the government of Syria had crossed a red line, and that punishment was sure to follow. But the evidence dribbled away over time, other evidence started pointing in a different direction (including photos from jihadists which evidenced that at least some of the deaths were staged), and a bombing campaign was never begun. More distantly, we can look at Bush and claims of WMD to see how reliable White House "conclusions" are: full of conflated half-facts and outright lies.

Quote:
Back to the black box - it's not that I think it will tell us anything, but the fact that it's being controlled by Russia says a lot about what they're doing with the crash site - hiding evidence.

I assume that black boxes are made tamper-evident- in other words, can't be accessed without leaving an indication- and also damage-resistant. If the seals are unbroken, and the unit is undamaged, then we would have to speculate as to how it could be "tampered with". And what's the point of "hiding evidence" only to turn it over later?

Quote:
"KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government accused Russian-backed insurgents on Saturday of blocking recovery workers from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines 17, which was shot down by a missile on Thursday, and of trying to destroy evidence surrounding the attack.

“The Russian-led terrorists are preventing access of the international community and foreign governments to the location where the Malaysia Airlines airplane crashed on July 17 and are obstructing the launch of an investigation,” the government’s statement said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane
-ukraine.html?_r=0
This is another item altogether. Access should be made immediately. Unfortunately, by now evidence HAS been compromised and nobody will fully rely on whatever is found on the ground.

Quote:
But sig won't believe this because when the Ukrainian govt says something they are lying. It's only the truth when the Russians say it.

I'm not quoting Russian press because it's full of speculation. I'm trying to stick to provable events and logical constructs. One assumption that I'm making is that Russia had no interest in shooting down a passenger airliner, and that they also have the training to prevent such an event. So on that basis, I rule out direct Russian involvement.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I think perhaps you should go back and read my posts.

I did. Did you? You started out be calling me "delusional", refusing to engage in facts while spouting entirely unsupported speculation, then following it up with... spissss,pissss, Sygie, hey Sygie.

Then you claim that YOU feel attacked. I do have to say, that's typically USAn. And pretty typical of you. Son, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

You all are missing the root question, one that I think bears some impact on the situation at hand.

Who destabilized the region in the first place.

Unintended consequences, blowback, chaos, nothing new to see here.

-F

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:53 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
When you behave more respectfully and can learn to discuss issues like a grownup, I'll treat you like a grownup. Until then, you're just a snotty little asshole kid who should be slapped upside the head, as far as I'm concerned.

Your journey is complete. You have become Rappy!

Really, indistinguishable.

Be fair. The journey is not yet complete. Empty and baseless accusations of being racist, bigoted, homophobic and hating poor people are still achievements yet to be reached.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:54 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, of course. Ukraine mirrors Syria pretty closely, since we destabilized Syria too.

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How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:00 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hand-waving references and "conclusions" without evidence from any side are non-persuasive.

Does anyone remember 9/11? Within hours Bush's WH said they had proof - PROOF POSITIVE! - that ObL did it. But rather than turn that proof over to the ICC, or agree to Afghanistan turning over ObL to the ICC which in turn would ask for that proof, the US invaded the country to get ObL DEAD OR ALIVE ...

Then we spent over a year rooting around the country for anything and looking through 22 boxcars worth of stuff for any indication ObL had anything to do with 9/11. Which btw we never did find. And we spent all that effort to find anything linking ObL to 9/11 after claiming - according to the WH - they already had their proof!

Yanno, whether or nor ObL did it, the WH claimed they had proof. And then pretty desperately tried to find some. I mean really folks - how MANY times are you going to fall for this before you at least wonder about unsupported claims? Are you never going to hesitate and wait for data?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:30 PM

I'm on a non ideal device so I can't do a proper point-by-point reply with quotes right now. But I'll try to get everything...

Sig - I know you aren't that dense! The importance of the other plane that got shot down was that the *same* battery was used. ie the rebels HAVE the capability and they are using it. And idk how you missed the us tracking that missile. It's been all over the news. No, not raw data, but it's funny how you demand raw data from the US govt but not from anyone else. Maybe when I get back on a real computer I'll do your homework for you.

Also, as TH mentioned, there are photographs of these missile batteries being moved out of Ukraine and into Russia just hours after the plane was shot down. You missed that too? Try and keep up. (By your rules I can say such a bitchy thing because you said it to me first you ole bitch.

)

There are social media posts of rebels bragging about shooting down a military plane, then having an oh shit moment when the bodies were found to be civilians. Posts deleted, but not disappeared.

Yes, this stuff can be faked, and I will wait to see if it is. But occums razor applies. You are clinging to the idea that all of this evidence is faked, and the only evidence you have to support your defense of Putin is that... Well, Ukraine sure will benefit from this! Hello! You think all this was minutely planned? The crash site is being guarded by drunk guys who fire into the air when the wrong kinds of investigators get close. It's a cluster fuck. It is not the Le Carre uber-planned spy world that your imagination seems to think realistic.

Because that's what you're saying sig. You are saying that Ukraine planned this, faked all the social media posts, videos, photographs of batteries leaving Ukraine, and the us helped out by faking or lying about the missile tracking. Because if they don't release the raw data, you know they're lying, right?

Tin foil hat anyone?

Sig, you are right about so many things. I don't understand where your incredible bias with respect to Ukraine comes from, because you are way off the deep end here!

And yes, it is early in the process and more information will be coming in, and my mind is ready to change. But not with the crap you're posting! Next you'll go with the rebel commander guy who says the bodies were drained of blood and dead long ago, as if they came from the other lost MA flight.

ETA: regarding the missile. Yeah, it sure would be nice to get to the fragments of the missile in the wreckage. Now who would have an interest in preventing this? The guilty party or the not guilty? And who's blocking access to the wreckage?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:41 PM

America loves a winner!

old age, I suppose, is blurring 1kiki's mind. What little there must be of it, at least.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:49 PM

Kiki - um, Osama DID do it. The problem was how bush connected it to Iraq, which was BS. That connection didn't happen the day after, it was carefully planned and sold to the public over several months. Yes, and it was BS. And no, I didn't believe it at the time. I clearly recall watching bush give a speech about how the attack was needed, and I could see the lie. But that's for another thread.

This situation is quite different, unless you're with what sig has suggested: that Ukraine planned this in advance and is now feeding out false evidence just like bush and his aluminum tubes, etc. Everything I've seen points to the rebels having done this, except a few bizarre tidbits from Russia or the rebels.

So, in your love of evidence, what actual evidence has implicated the Ukrainians? Seriously, I've looked, and I have seen nothing. The most compelling argument is how this will work in Ukraine's best interest. Which is proof of nothing.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:59 PM

This is informative:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/chaos-at-malaysian-airlines-crash-si
te-leaves-victims-by-the

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

MAL4.. the statement was... the same KIND of battery was used. Please re-read your quote of the NYT article more closely...

Quote:
While American officials are still investigating the chain of events leading to the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on Thursday, they pointed to a series of indicators of Russian involvement. Among other things, military and intelligence officials said there was mounting evidence that a Ukrainian military plane shot down three days earlier had been fired upon from inside Russian territory by the same sort of missile battery used to bring down the civilian jet.

Really? The same sort of missile battery? That was my point: EVERYONE has the BUK-1 (except maybe the separatists didn't have a working one). It's only significant if they're referring to the latest BUK version, which- btw- NOBODY has, not even the Russian regular army.

Quote:
And idk how you missed the us tracking that missile. It's been all over the news.

I overheard about ti at work. By the time I got to a computer a few hours later, the claim was gone. Where is that claim NOW? Nobody seems to be referring to it anymore, not even Obama in his latest statement, even though he references much weaker "indicators". I'm sure we'll never get the raw data, but I find it suspect when a claim is made and then quietly dropped. Don't you?

Quote:
There are social media posts of rebels bragging about shooting down a military plane

I've posted about this already. There is no identifying background or corroborating detail to indicate that the clip wasn't staged, and it appears very similar to a video posted by Kiev earlier with the same 'intelligence officer", who is supposedly recorded (yet again, not having learned the first time!) communicating in the clear. Please go back and read the details of the zerohdege article. (When I have more time I'll post a link to a staged "save Maidan" video from Kiev).

Quote:
Because that's what you're saying sig. You are saying that Ukraine planned this, faked all the social media posts, videos, photographs of batteries leaving Ukraine, and the us helped out by faking or lying about the missile tracking. Because if they don't release the raw data, you know they're lying, right?

Do you really think that neither we nor our friendly regimes have NEVER LIED? Never run false flag operations? Never cooked up evidence? Looking back, how many times has the public been gulled over matters of national significance? Your faith in our government's honesty is touching.

Quote:
Sig, you are right about so many things. I don't understand where your incredible bias with respect to Ukraine comes from, because you are way off the deep end here!

I'm merely applying lessons learned from 9-11, Aghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Venezuela, Panama, Chile, Vietnam and a host of other examples directly to Ukraine. I think that because it's Russia on the other side of the issue, it warps people's thinking, but the bias doesn't seem to be mine.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:33 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Maybe you didn't read to the end of my post. The point is that we - the country - got stampeded into an unnecessary war that cost trillions, based on proof that wasn't there. A war we declared we 'won' within months and abandoned (or tried to, but somehow it dragged on for over a decade), in order to be stampeded right into another one by more bogus claims of proof.

And - you might not wish to pursue this here and now - I have yet to hear of any proof bin Laden was behind 9/11.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Kiki - um, Osama DID do it. The problem was how bush connected it to Iraq, which was BS. That connection didn't happen the day after, it was carefully planned and sold to the public over several months. Yes, and it was BS. And no, I didn't believe it at the time. I clearly recall watching bush give a speech about how the attack was needed, and I could see the lie. But that's for another thread.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
This is informative:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/chaos-at-malaysian-airlines-crash-si
te-leaves-victims-by-the

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Yes it was very informative. So was your post to Sig that Sig and 1kiki followed with more of the same. It is so obvious they are lying in the form of ignoring the evidence. I have yet to witness her being right or honest in intention. I keep hearing about her honesty (mostly from her) but have yet to see any of it.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

You think all this was minutely planned? The crash site is being guarded by drunk guys who fire into the air when the wrong kinds of investigators get close. It's a cluster fuck. It is not the Le Carre uber-planned spy world that your imagination seems to think realistic.

Yes! Thank you for that Mal4. I think Signym gives mankind way too much credit way too often. Sometimes it's just a fuck up, a very big one. Some part-time militia wannabe screw-ups thought they were kings of the air after shooting down one plane, so they saw another one and went after it. Oops. "I thought was fighter!" No grand scheme, no mystery other than how fast they can cover their f*ck-up.

BTW - no one gains from shooting this plane down.

The biggest fuckup may be angering Europeans further by letting their loved ones rot in a field while robbing them, let's see.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 4:10 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
BTW - no one gains from shooting this plane down.

The USA gains from this downed plane, as does Kiev. With it, Obama will pressure the EU into being more aggressive in its sanctions, and Kiev (if it gets its wet dream) will get NATO directly involved.

Didn't we just destroy five nations in the past 14 years? Weren't we inveigled into each event? But each time, we treat it like the last times never happened because this time, it's different.

I saw this coming months ago.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:44 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I saw this coming months ago.

Say all the great tea leave readers, AFTER the fact.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:34 PM

And sig's reply contains nothing concrete to support her tin foil hat stuff, just more winging about how it all *could* be faked so therefore it must be.

Concrete sig. What have you got? Photos? Quotes? Observations? Anything?

And yes - the same *kind* of battery means the same kind of fucking battery. Please stop being so obtuse and so easily willing to make weak dismissals of the obvious.

It's like you've had a lobotomy. I remember what you used to be like, and I know why Chris respects you. I used to. But now you are like a creationist: the fossil record seems to suggest evolution, but that's only because god made it that way!

Sig-version: the available information makes it seem like Putin is a power hungry dictator, but that's only because the powers of the West are the real satans and they've planted all the false flags to make him seem bad! Really he is the pure deity of wholesomeness! My lord. Rap loves to say we worship Obama, though no one has ever posted any such thing. But I have real reason to believe that you really do worship Putin. Or perhaps you just hate the west enough to grab onto any alternative, no matter how base and ridiculous.

I continue to be flabbergasted that you see such brilliant evil masterminds in the west but refuse to question any action by Putin and all his pals. What is it, are you Russian in origin? Why this blindness in an otherwise rational brain?

Eta: and haven't you any thoughts about why the Russian backed separatists are not allowing investigators near the sight? How will you react when we find that all traces of the missile have been removed and hidden?

Eta2: are you really not aware of the data about the launch of the missile being in a rebel controlled area? How can you be in denial of his, it's all over the place! It's also backed by observations in the he region. Jesus you are biased!

Try to keep up sig.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:42 PM

And let's be clear sig. Let's get it out there.

You believe that the Ukraine planned in advance and then executed this attack on innocent civilians, faked evidence that would put the blame on Russia, and planted the online videos and photos. They did this on purpose to gain the sympathies of the West and get a hand up on the war.

Don't pussy foot around. You believe this, don't you? Don't be a wimp. Come on out and say what you think.

Or can't you own up to it?

If you don't believe this, how can you be so quick to dismiss all the evidence pointing at Russia as the bad fuckers here?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:15 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"are you really not aware of the data about the launch of the missile being in a rebel controlled area?"

You mean the 'data' that Obama said so. The same Obama who claimed the NSA wasn't collecting actual transmissions. The same Obama who claimed that NSA program helped avert 50!!! terrorist acts! The same Obama who lied about the Deepwater spill. Why should I believe him?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:16 PM

Since I have been reading posts here and then joined, Sig has been waging a relentless attack against the west. I have been pointing it out from the moment I got here. It has been just as obvious in the other threads as it is here. She defends Russia while vilifying the United States and the rest of Europe. Everything from this to ISIS and Syria. All her posts imply the worst about us. If it isn't said outright it permeates her posts as an undercurrent. Let's not forget her minion 1kiki.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, since everyone is so breathlessly believing any claims made with no actual evidence, here's one:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/militias-do-not-have-ukrainian-buk-missil
e-system-ukraine-general-prosecutor/5391968

Militias Do Not Have Ukrainian Buk Missile System — Ukraine General Prosecutor

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner on the way from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in Ukraine on Thursday. All 298 people abroad the airliner died in the crash.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:32 PM

I followed your link 1kiki. It is the same conspiracy theory you and Sig are promoting. In fact I recognize much of the points of sig's undercurrent from there.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"are you really not aware of the data about the launch of the missile being in a rebel controlled area?"

You mean the 'data' that Obama said so. The same Obama who claimed the NSA wasn't collecting actual transmissions. The same Obama who claimed that NSA program helped avert 50!!! terrorist acts! The same Obama who lied about the Deepwater spill. Why should I believe him?

All right then. So you believe Obama is lying and the missile came from somewhere not rebel controlled.

Duly noted for future consideration.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:36 PM

Hey 1kiki explain this;

Russia Today Correspondent Quits Over Plane Crash 'Lies'

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Russia-Ukraine-reporter-quits/2014/07
/18/id/583551

'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russia-today-reporter-quits-mala
ysia-airlines-mh17-crash-coverage-article-1.1871924

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, since everyone is so breathlessly believing any claims made with no actual evidence, here's one:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/militias-do-not-have-ukrainian-buk-missil
e-system-ukraine-general-prosecutor/5391968

Militias Do Not Have Ukrainian Buk Missile System — Ukraine General Prosecutor

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

So Kiki, why do you believe this article and no others? What is it about this one that says *truth* to you?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:44 PM

And still no one addresses the issue that the separatists are stopping investigators from reaching the crash site, and they said they had the black box the day of the crash but now it's gone missing...

Yeah, that means they have nothing to hide, right?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:47 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So you believe Obama is lying

What's with the strawman Mal? It's possible to suspend belief in one claim without automatically believing the other. All I'm saying is we have no DATA, just a bunch of claims by a bunch of folks. I'm going to wait for real information. How about you?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:51 PM

One more - sig and clone kiki, I dare you to post this:

"Obama is lying about the missile tracking data, and he made up this claim that it came from rebel-controlled territory just so that he can blame Russia when really he has no proof. It is purely invented and has no factual basis."

Remove the quotes and post that as your statement, something you've suggested and you've let it be your guide in assessing the information coming out of the Ukraine, but I think neither of you have the balls to say it outright.

Do it. Say it plain. Only then will I do your homework for you.

*-------------------------------------------------*
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http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So you believe Obama is lying

Quote:
...1kiki
What's with the strawman Mal? It's possible to suspend belief in one claim without automatically believing the other. All I'm saying is we have no DATA, just a bunch of claims by a bunch of folks. I'm going to wait for real information. How about you?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

Three times now links were posted that expose Russia's number one news agency to be lying. Still you and Sig refuse to comment.

THAT SAYS IT ALL....

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So you believe Obama is lying

WTF are you talking about?

Whoa confusion - THG, are you replying to me or Kiki?

Your post changed since I originally responded. I thought Kiki posted that. Did you just mess up monumentally hmm? Forget who you were posting as? LOL! Troll.

Old response to what I thought was Kiki:

Quote:
What's with the strawman Mal? It's possible to suspend belief in one claim without automatically believing the other. All I'm saying is we have no DATA, just a bunch of claims by a bunch of folks. I'm going to wait for real information. How about you?

I'm waiting for more information but not numbing my brain to what's coming out now, before the PTB can whitewash it, and not dismissing very damning evidence because it doesn't fit my preconceived ideas of West=evil and Russia=better than West by default.

How about you?

And again - got any real evidence to show that the Ukrainians set this whole thing up and falsified all the videos, pictures, missile tracking, etc? You continue to not respond to that.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So you believe Obama is lying

WTF are you talking about?

Whoa confusion - THG, are you replying to me or Kiki?

Your post changed since I originally responded. I thought Kiki posted that. Did you just mess up monumentally hmm?

Old response to what I thought was Kiki:

Quote:
What's with the strawman Mal? It's possible to suspend belief in one claim without automatically believing the other. All I'm saying is we have no DATA, just a bunch of claims by a bunch of folks. I'm going to wait for real information. How about you?

I'm waiting for more information but not numbing my brain to what's coming out now, before the PTB can whitewash it, and not dismissing very damning evidence because it doesn't fit my preconceived ideas of West=evil and Russia=better than West by default.

How about you?

And again - got any real evidence to show that the Ukrainians set this whole thing up and falsified all the videos, pictures, missile tracking, etc? You continue to not respond to that.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

I was confronting 1kiki with the Russian anchor lady quitting because she was forced to lie about plane crash. She and Sig refuse to respond to it.

I have agreed with all you have been posting here MAL4PREZ.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:31 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Mal

I'm not closing my eyes to ANYthing. Our claims, or theirs.

Sometimes, btw, with time, the truth comes out. Like the Assad/ Sarin claims - that didn't get automatically and enthusiastically acted on, that marinaded with a little doubt-sauce provided by Russia, that fell apart with more time and facts.

I'm waiting for all the facts to come out.

ETA: I'm curious if you can restrict your answer to what I actually posted, or if you'll continue to try to put words in my mouth.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
What's with the strawman Mal?

So what's with the what's with the strawman Mal?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

ETA: I'm curious if you can restrict your answer to what I actually posted, or if you'll continue to try to put words in my mouth.

Expand on this. What exactly are the words I put in your mouth?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:54 PM

And still this Kiki:

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
One more - sig and clone kiki, I dare you to post this:

"Obama is lying about the missile tracking data, and he made up this claim that it came from rebel-controlled territory just so that he can blame Russia when really he has no proof. It is purely invented and has no factual basis."

Remove the quotes and post that as your statement, something you've suggested and you've let it be your guide in assessing the information coming out of the Ukraine, but I think neither of you have the balls to say it outright.

Do it. Say it plain. Only then will I do your homework for you.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
What's with the strawman Mal?

So what's with the what's with the strawman Mal?

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

That's not me. The only part of that post with a comment that was mine was the bottom sentence about the news reporter. 1kiki posts get confusing with all the layers. It's part of her style to confuse things. I just fixed it by putting that section in quotes. Not to worry, in by book you are right on target here.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

That's not me. The only part of that post with a comment that was mine was the bottom sentence about the news reporter. 1kiki posts get confusing with all the layers. It's part of her style to confuse things.

dude look at your post at 7:52. You formatted it all wrong.

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http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

That's not me. The only part of that post with a comment that was mine was the bottom sentence about the news reporter. 1kiki posts get confusing with all the layers. It's part of her style to confuse things.
dude look at your post at 7:52. You formatted it all wrong.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

When I hit reply with a quote to 1kiki she had that section set up between quotes so it stayed white in my post. I fixed it and put her name with it. Check it out. I will wait a minute before moving on to make sure you understand what happened. If you go further back you will see it in her post before it showed up in mine.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:12 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, you seem to think I'm Signy's clone. I presume then that posts addressed to her are also addressed to me.

I say this:
Are you never going to hesitate and wait for data?

and you say this:
not with the crap you're posting!
Jesus you are biased!
You believe that the Ukraine planned in advance and then executed this attack

I say this:
Why should I believe (Obama)?

and you say this:
So you believe Obama is lying and the missile came from somewhere not rebel controlled. Duly noted for future consideration.

I say this:
So, since everyone is so breathlessly believing any claims made with no actual evidence, here's one

and you say this:
So Kiki, why do you believe this article and no others? What is it about this one that says *truth* to you?

And so on.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:19 PM

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:31 PM

Kiki the sig clone, your post answers none of my very direct and specific questions.

Try again.

1. What evidence do you have to directly implicate the Ukrainians?

2. What is your basis of dismissing the mounting evidence that implicates the Russians? (I can expand on this if you've blocked all my previous posts out.)

3. If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of, be honest. Do it outright. You believe that the pres of the US is lying. Say it and own it, or implicitly admit to being a biased coward with nothing to support your outrageous clams.

I'm especially interested in your response to #3.

ETA #4: how do you explain the obvious efforts by the separatists to keep all western investigators away from the wreckage? And ditto re the disappearance of the flight recordings?

*-------------------------------------------------*
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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:33 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't Igor and Dimitry , getting faced on Vodka and randomly pushing buttons for kicks. The ones who let this dog off its chain had serious military training.

I was being flippant when I used the generic Russian names of Igor and Dimitry.

Turns out, the guy that our govt thinks was responsible for this firing of this missile was this guy -

Igor Strelkov named as culprit in MH17 disaster

THE man believed to be the key figure behind the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner has variously been described as a senior Russian military officer, a self-styled separatist leader, and a brutal killer with form.

Mainstream news agencies, Ukrainian media, and the blogosphere identified Igor Strelkov as the person who tweeted chilling real-time reports of how a group of pro-Russian militia sent a surface-to-air missile into the sky above eastern Ukraine which blew apart Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:46 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Strelkov's a pussy, a stooge for Putin, a pencil-neck geek.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Since I have been reading posts here and then joined, Sig has been waging a relentless attack against the west. I have been pointing it out from the moment I got here.

It's been going on for years. Pretty much everything bad that's ever happened in the world is America's fault, in SignyMworld.

Why she still lives here is a puzzlement.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:31 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And sig's reply contains nothing concrete to support her tin foil hat stuff, just more winging about how it all *could* be faked so therefore it must be.

Concrete sig. What have you got? Photos? Quotes? Observations? Anything?

And yes - the same *kind* of battery means the same kind of fucking battery. Please stop being so obtuse and so easily willing to make weak dismissals of the obvious.

It's like you've had a lobotomy. I remember what you used to be like, and I know why Chris respects you. I used to. But now you are like a creationist: the fossil record seems to suggest evolution, but that's only because god made it that way!

Sig-version: the available information makes it seem like Putin is a power hungry dictator, but that's only because the powers of the West are the real satans and they've planted all the false flags to make him seem bad! Really he is the pure deity of wholesomeness! My lord. Rap loves to say we worship Obama, though no one has ever posted any such thing. But I have real reason to believe that you really do worship Putin. Or perhaps you just hate the west enough to grab onto any alternative, no matter how base and ridiculous.

I continue to be flabbergasted that you see such brilliant evil masterminds in the west but refuse to question any action by Putin and all his pals. What is it, are you Russian in origin? Why this blindness in an otherwise rational brain?

Eta: and haven't you any thoughts about why the Russian backed separatists are not allowing investigators near the sight? How will you react when we find that all traces of the missile have been removed and hidden?

Eta2: are you really not aware of the data about the launch of the missile being in a rebel controlled area? How can you be in denial of his, it's all over the place! It's also backed by observations in the he region. Jesus you are biased!

Try to keep up sig.

MAL4, are you done with your little strawman hissy-fit now? Got it all out of your system? Able to take a deep breath and listen?

Quote:
just more winging about how it all *could* be faked so therefore it must be.

No, I've said it HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, and so therefore it COULD BE NOW. Because of the long history of our administrations LYING TO US, one should be just as careful as what Obama says and what Putin says. It is possible do you suppose, that you could actually try to understand what I'm saying, instead of reacting to what you THINK I'm saying?

Quote:
Concrete sig. What have you got? Photos? Quotes? Observations? Anything?

A lack of credible and verifiable data, and a video that looks suspiciously like a previous video, also unverifiable. It doesn't mean the Ukrainians did it. OTOH, it doesn't mean the Russians did it or the separatists did it either.

Quote:
And yes - the same *kind* of battery means the same kind of fucking battery. Please stop being so obtuse and so easily willing to make weak dismissals of the obvious.

MAL4, saying that the plane was hit by a Russian-made BUK anti-aircraft missile is like saying that someone in the mideast was killed by an Russian-made AK-47. Those weapons are so ubiquitous, the mere fact that they were used doesn't point to anyone on particular. In Ukraine, ALL arms are "Russian made"... especially Kiev's! It could have been fired by Kiev, by Russia, by separatists, by provocateurs... that fact by itself is meaningless. I really don't understand why you keep pounding on that non-probative point.

Quote:
It's like you've had a lobotomy. I remember what you used to be like, and I know why Chris respects you. I used to. But now you are like a creationist: the fossil record seems to suggest evolution, but that's only because god made it that way!

MAl4, I haven't changed. Go back to my previous posts.... really. Go back YEARS- the further, the better. I was, if anything, even more extreme back then. But I did ONE THING that ticked you off. I did it on purpose. I was interested to see how you and NIKI would react. And I learned a lot about you. Some day, I'll tell you what I did.

Quote:
Sig-version: the available information makes it seem like Putin is a power hungry dictator, but that's only because the powers of the West are the real satans and they've planted all the false flags to make him seem bad! Really he is the pure deity of wholesomeness! My lord. Rap loves to say we worship Obama, though no one has ever posted any such thing. But I have real reason to believe that you really do worship Putin. Or perhaps you just hate the west enough to grab onto any alternative, no matter how base and ridiculous. I continue to be flabbergasted that you see such brilliant evil masterminds in the west but refuse to question any action by Putin and all his pals. What is it, are you Russian in origin? Why this blindness in an otherwise rational brain?

I haven't said ANYTHING about Putin, have I? This is just more straw-manning on your part.

Quote:
Eta: and haven't you any thoughts about why the Russian backed separatists are not allowing investigators near the sight? How will you react when we find that all traces of the missile have been removed and hidden?

Is that a prediction? (And... assume much??)

IF all traces of the missile have bee removed from the site, then I'll assume that separatists had something to hide, and probably shot down the plane.

Quote:
Eta2: are you really not aware of the data about the launch of the missile being in a rebel controlled area? How can you be in denial of his, it's all over the place! It's also backed by observations in the he region. Jesus you are biased!

I've been to many major news sites, and none of them currently directly refer to this so-called data. Nothing on Yahoo, Nothing on BBC. Nothing on Reuters. Where is this "all over the news" information? Links please?

I used to admire you, too. I thought you were analytical enough to be unbiased, but I sure found out different! Can we get over our mutual disappointment of each other and pay attention to the story?

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Since I have been reading posts here and then joined, Sig has been waging a relentless attack against the west. I have been pointing it out from the moment I got here.

It's been going on for years. Pretty much everything bad that's ever happened in the world is America's fault, in SignyMworld.

Why she still lives here is a puzzlement.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

I don't believe she does live here. It is impossible to miss Russia's entanglement in the world. That while being so stringent about denying any wrong doing on Russia's part every time. Plus blaming us for everything. That suggests a very strong inferiority complex and rivalry with the United States. I believe she has very strong ties to that country.

My concern is if she is here, where does she work and what does she have access to. There is no doubt in my mind that she can't be trusted.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:37 PM

Shocker - there is nothing direct and factual in anything sig has to say. More hand waving and excuses.

I guess that we have nothing to do at this point but to wait and see.

But really, no direct response to my questions 1 through 4 sig? Nothing at all?

Reminder:

1. What evidence do you have to directly implicate the Ukrainians?

2. What is your basis of dismissing the mounting evidence that implicates the Russians? (I can expand on this if you've blocked all my previous posts out.)

3. If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of, be honest. Do it outright. You believe that the pres of the US is lying. Say it and own it, or implicitly admit to being a biased coward with nothing to support your outrageous clams.

#4: how do you explain the obvious efforts by the separatists to keep all western investigators away from the wreckage? And ditto re the disappearance of the flight recordings?

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http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Shocker - there is nothing direct and factual in anything sig has to say. More hand waving and excuses.

I guess that we have nothing to do at this point but to wait and see.

But really, no direct response to my questions 1 through 4 sig? Nothing at all?

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

I'm afraid Sig's and 1kiki's hate for this country may manifest itself in places other than these threads.

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Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:00 PM