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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I guess that we have nothing to do at this point but to wait and see.

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FINALLY! We reach an understanding! That's been my point all along.

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1. What evidence do you have to directly implicate the Ukrainians?

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They had means, motive, and opportunity. That makes them a suspect, along with other suspects.

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2. What is your basis of dismissing the mounting evidence that implicates the Russians? (I can expand on this if you've blocked all my previous posts out.)

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WHAT "mounting evidence"? A "Russian-made" missile was used? The rebels claimed to have captured one FROM KIEV? I personally don't see that Russia had any motivation to shoot down a passenger plane; for them it is a clusterfuck of nightmare proportions.

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3. If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of, be honest. Do it outright. You believe that the pres of the US is lying. Say it and own it, or implicitly admit to being a biased coward with nothing to support your outrageous clams.

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I have asked several times for LINKS. This so-called "missile data" is nowhere to be found. I can't evaluate what I can't find.

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#4: how do you explain the obvious efforts by the separatists to keep all western investigators away from the wreckage? And ditto re the disappearance of the flight recordings?

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And ditto the disappearance of the taped conversations between Kiev air traffic control and Flight M17. I MIGHT say that the separatists were worried about the objectivity of the the investigators.

Your speculation always goes in one direction. For every story that you can concoct which indicates Russia's guilt, I can concoct one which indicates Kiev's. So how about doing like you said, and waiting for the investigation to be completed?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of"

Neither accept nor reject. Waiting for data.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of"

Neither accept nor reject. Waiting for data.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
I think it's time for me to move on. It's all been said and I feel we are beginning to chase our tails.

Nice chat.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Why she still lives here is a puzzlement.

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I don't believe she does live here. It is impossible to miss Russia's entanglement in the world. That while being so stringent about denying any wrong doing on Russia's part every time. Plus blaming us for everything. That suggests a very strong inferiority complex and rivalry with the United States. I believe she has very strong ties to that country.

My concern is if she is here, where does she work and what does she have access to. There is no doubt in my mind that she can't be trusted.

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Really?!? What did you see exactly? Did you see Putin's Crimea land grab?

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It won't benefit the perpetrators because they will be found out and punished, so ergo, no one would plan this. Conclusion: a mistake.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Lately???

You mean you didn't notice the few major invasions that we started or were part of?

Nah.....

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And now the separatists appear to be taking all the bodies...somewhere.

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TOREZ, Ukraine (AP) -- Rebels in eastern Ukraine took control Sunday of the bodies recovered from downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and the U.S. and European leaders demanded that Russian President Vladimir Putin make sure rebels give international investigators had full access to the crash site.

"There's a stacking up of evidence here, which Russia needs to help account for. We are not drawing the final conclusion here. But there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible," U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said NBC's "Meet the Press" television show.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


You really think so? Surely not. I'm sure you all could do another 10 pages of 'you hate usa' 'you're twisting my words' 'you're a sock puppet' Only in your case, you'd write it as 'your twisting my words' coz you're grammar's a bit off ;)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, they're sure not helping their cause. Once there is an international investigative team set up... not OSCE members who are EU military personnel but an actual investigative team... they really should leave the hell alone.

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Also, you have to know that the U.S. can identify not only the type of missile guidance radar used, but the location where it was set up by its signal. Anyone who's read Tom Clancy, any techno-thriller, or the description of actual anti-radar system knows how these systems work.

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Stealing a Buk
Under a blazing sun in early June, a group of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine were digging amid pine woods near the town of Krazny Liman.

Their grizzled commander was a bearded man in his 50s who would not tell us where he was from, but acknowledged that he wasn't local. He was proud to show off his unit's most prized possession -- a truck-mounted anti-aircraft unit that was Russian-made.

He told us the weapon had been seized from a Ukrainian base....

Could the pro-Russian rebels have acquired a serviceable Buk from a Ukrainian base and operated it? The evidence is circumstantial; a great deal of Ukrainian military hardware is in poor condition or redundant.

But on June 29, rebels raided the Ukrainian army's A-1402 missile facility near Donetsk. Photographs show them examining what they found.

The Russian website Vosti ran an article the same day titled "Skies of Donetsk will be defended by surface-to-air missile system Buk."

The article claimed: "The anti-air defense point is one of the divisions of the missile corps and is equipped with motorized "Buk" anti-aircraft missile systems."

Peter Felstead, an expert on former Soviet military hardware at Janes IHS, says that "the Buk is in both the Russian and Ukrainian inventories, but it's unclear whether the one suspected in the shoot-down was taken by rebels when they overran a Ukrainian base, or was supplied by Russia."

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Kerry said the United States had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.

The United States had intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian radar-guided SA11 missile system it blames for the downing of the Boeing 777, he said.

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia," Kerry said in an interview on CNN.

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Referring to the tragic downing of a Malaysian Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine, former Texas congressman Ron Paul warned against jumping to conclusions over the culprits.

Drawing parallels between the potential for a Russian-made missile system’s connection to the attack of the passenger jet on Thursday over the restive Donetsk region of Ukraine and the capture of US-made weapons by Islamist insurgents in Iraq, Paul pointed out that the missile’s potential source of manufacture was largely immaterial.

“That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons," said Paul. "We sent weapons into Syria to help the rebels and al-Qaida ends up getting it — it doesn't mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons."

"So who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were," Paul added. "So even if it was a Russian weapon — doesn't mean a lot."

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Anyway, doesn't it seem reasonable to you that in an incident involving the shoot-down of an airliner by a surface-to-air missile (unless you're now denying this too)you'd want folks familiar with surface-to-air missiles and the results of such an attack? Wouldn't those folks likely be military?

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…Sig
However, it seems that whatever happens, Kerry manages to make it Russia's fault. And so far, just like the evidence of "who shot the plane down?" seems to be MIA, so is the evidence that Russia is 'in charge' of what these people are doing.

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….Sig

I think that just as Russia is far too sophisticated to have shot this plan down, it it far too sophisticated to be taking such unhelpful actions.

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Went there, looked at all of your posts, didn't see it. Closest one was where you took credit for predicting Ukraine would be split up ("halfway credit"), no Crimea, no Putin.

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I noticed where I added your prediction that the US would destabilize Syria - guess we're still waiting for that one.

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All true (not sure about the number of nations) - so how does that point to us being guilty here? Russia has an innocent past? Most recently Crimea?

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I noticed Obama trying to get us out of Iraq and Afghansitan. I have a feeling you will have a different perspective on that though.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Also, you have to know that the U.S. can identify not only the type of missile guidance radar used, but the location where it was set up by its signal. Anyone who's read Tom Clancy, any techno-thriller, or the description of actual anti-radar system knows how these systems work.

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Which is why it should be so easy to point a definitive finger at where the missile came from. Meanwhile, different media outlets are pointing in different directions...

CNN, for example, is pressing the claim that the anti-aircraft system was captured by rebels from Ukrainian facilities...

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Anyway, doesn't it seem reasonable to you that in an incident involving the shoot-down of an airliner by a surface-to-air missile (unless you're now denying this too)you'd want folks familiar with surface-to-air missiles and the results of such an attack? Wouldn't those folks likely be military?

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If one is paranoid about the objectivity of an investigative team, Russian military should be included.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Seriously, folks, I think the speculation's been beat to death. Let's give it a rest.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Yes YOUR right I could.

your [yoor, yawr, yohr; unstressed yer] Show IPA

pronoun

(a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea. Compare yours.

one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your best source of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.


(used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type): Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.

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All powerful countries do this. The US has done the same to South and Central America. Most powerful countries do not want hostile nations on their border.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Yes YOUR right I could.

your [yoor, yawr, yohr; unstressed yer] Show IPA

pronoun

(a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea. Compare yours.

one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your best source of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.


(used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type): Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.

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The easiet way to avoid mistakes between 'you're' and 'your' is to think about what you are writing.

'You're' is a contraction of 'you are' so if you read your sentence and what you could also say is 'you are' then 'you're' is the correct usage

'Your' is a possessive adjective second person - see if you can replace it with 'my' or 'his/her' in the sentence to make sense.

ie You're an idiot. (contraction of 'you are')
Your coat has a big hole in the armpit' (possessive adjective)

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Pity we can't do it with Mexico. It's right next door, and that entire country is run like ... well, the city of Detroit.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.

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All powerful countries do this. The US has done the same to South and Central America. Most powerful countries do not want hostile nations on their border.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Well I dont think the all the 'facts' have anywhere near been proven. What we are seeing is a lot of theories, some more likely than others obviously.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
My point exactly. People who claim it's a 'fact' that the missile was traced back to separatist-held territory have only Obama's claim that it is so. Meanwhile, other people claim other things. People who claim it's a 'fact' that Russia's controlling the separatists have only media-claims as sources. Meanwhile, other people claim other things.

There are precious few facts, but lots of people making claims. And lots of people echoing them.

Me, I'm waiting for facts.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The same applies to Russia or anyone else with hostile neighbours.

I think the scenario of it being launced by Russian backed militia is the most likely, however, I dont think Sygny has deserved the attacks she has recieved on this topic. This is a proxy war where each side is backed and armed by a super power. And I guess what we see here sadly, is when arms, especially such destructive high tech arms are in the hands of poorly trained and disciplined militia. I could go on and make some parallels with the 2nd amendment, but I'll resist dragging it down that fruitless path.

I also think that it's (it is - contraction not possessive see THGRI) no bad thing to view different news sources to get different perspectives on a situation and to view them all with an eye of distrust.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event ..."

Because waiting for facts is an attack?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background.

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Are you NOT aware that Obama is EVIL, and the wellspring of every bad event on this planet? Have you been living in a cave?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:



This is a constant with Sig and 1kiki. They deserve it and more. If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event, you would not be so generous. I remember how uppity you suggested I was because I was an American when we discussed different ways of governing. I don't think it would take much for you to go off on someone speaking ill of your country. Don't judge me for defending mine.

(It is nice to hear from you. It's a shame we don't meet here more often.)

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Please, like when all this shit started in the Ukraine. All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background. I don't recall you suggesting we wait for the facts.... Now you ignore them.

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