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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:



This is a constant with Sig and 1kiki. They deserve it and more. If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event, you would not be so generous. I remember how uppity you suggested I was because I was an American when we discussed different ways of governing. I don't think it would take much for you to go off on someone speaking ill of your country. Don't judge me for defending mine.

(It is nice to hear from you. It's a shame we don't meet here more often.)

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I don't remember getting 'uppity' and I don't remember feeling like you attacked my country. I think the discussion was about different kinds of government.

I would have thought that the whole point of this board was to discuss and yes, criticise actions, military and economic and the rest that occur throughout the world. Criticism of America's foreign policy by Americans (or anyone else for that matter) does not seem as outrageous to me as it clearly does to you.

You're (nb you are) living in a world power, people are going to dislike your interventions in the world. As long as people are discussing your actions, not blowing you up, I'd say 'suck it up princess' ;)

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Again, I feel if you read something slandering your country you would respond harshly. Would you not?

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:


Again, I feel if you read something slandering your country you would respond harshly. Would you not?

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Meh. I read it all the time. I agree with it a lot too. I'm critical of my government, of many aspects of my nation.

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Seeing to the truth is also about assessing the trustworthiness of the source. And that can only be determined by lining one source up with information from a separate, purely unrelated source, and having a history of knowing which is more trustworthy. This is not science. It is purely subjective, and here is where our biases cause problems. Here is where the blinders go over our eyes: who do you believe: Bush, Obama, or Putin?

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Sig, being a pure scientist, may understand little of this. She shows no ability to use fuzzy logic, the process by which our brains actually function.

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Example: from the start I have no trust no Putin and his involvement in all the Ukraine matter. Sig has no trust of Obama, but had some idea that Putin had rational, perhaps even honorable reasons to do what he's done.

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Our differing mentalities explain a lot about the very different fuzzy logic we've brought in to the present matter. I am quickest to see Putin as the liar. Sig jumps on Obama. Neither man is 100% truthful, but one is far worse, and I think that in the long run the truth will out. Sig, will you accept that result, if it happens? Seems you're already packing away in this thread as you see the evidence mount, the fuzzy logic that was obvious to me and countless other days ago might be coming home to you....

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But hey Sig - don't think I missed it. I posed very specific questions to you. Rather than replying in any detail re how Obama is lying, you claimed this whole thing needed a rest.

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Hey - How much head time do you devote to the possible reality where Obama is NOT lying? I've yet to see any of that here. Or you exploration of he possibility that Putin is lying though he teeth. You never do pay mind to that possibility.

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...Sig
Those FACTS, however, are not going to be made plain to us mere peons, and so it's up to us to figure out what the real, hard facts are.

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...Sig

Here's a suggestion: I'll take you side or the argument if you take mine. I think I could do a bang-up job, I really do. Sound fair?

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I'll take you up on that.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR- Several threads back, you basically put your hand to forehead and swooned over the terrible, terrible things that must be done to keep us safe from all of the evil out there.

I call bullshit.

Since when does it benefit us to destabilize and impoverish nations; fund, arm, and train jihadists (as we've been doing since the mujahideen in Afghanistan), neo-Nazis and tyrants everywhere ?

Our armed forces aren't being used to preserve our freedoms, they're being used to secure oil and enforce the petrodollar. Sorry to say.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Here's an argument for your NEW side of the coin:

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of
Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukrain
e-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

Go for it!

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b]

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It does not work if your first post is going to support your beliefs and is a suggestion to me how I should respond against mine. Try again....


AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Care to address WHAT I POSTED?

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Zero Hedge is a news website, content aggregator, and collection of blogs by contributing editors. It reports on economics, Wall Street, and the financial sector and is credited with bringing the controversial practice of flash trading to public attention in 2009 via a series of posts alleging that Goldman Sachs' access to flash order information allowed the firm to gain unfair profits. The news portion of the site is written by a group of editors who collectively write under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden", a character from the novel & film Fight Club.

Profile

Zero Hedge was founded in January 2009.[2] Posts are signed "Tyler Durden," a character in the Chuck Palahniuk book and movie Fight Club,[3] reflecting the news site's activist posture.[2] Despite speculation that "Tyler Durden" is a pseudonym of Daniel Ivandjiiski,[3][4] who was penalized for insider trading in New York in September 2008,[5] Ivandjiiski denies being a founder of Zero Hedge. Rather, he says he is one of several writers contributing to the site under the pseudonym.[5] In an interview, "Durden" said there were four editors at Zero Hedge[2] but another editor says there are up to 40.[note 1][3] Editors have experience in various areas of finance and operations, differing from journalists who become experts about finance as they write about it, but have no practical work experience in the sector.[2] The online newspaper publishes anonymously to protect the editors from retaliation for dissident speech.[2] Durden maintains this protects its integrity, objectivity, and independence, as well. Durden cites the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and the 1995 United States Supreme Court case, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission,[2] which upheld anonymity as a right of free speech.[6][note 2]
Readership and influence

By September 2009, Zero Hedge had begun drawing more traffic than more established financial websites[5] with 333,000 unique visitors a month, impressing even those[who?] who say the news site is full of conspiracy theory and "apocalyptic world view".[4] Durden says two-thirds of its readers are from Wall Street.[2] According to Quantcast, Zero Hedge has as of 2012 a monthly global traffic of 1.8 million people.[7] Under the name Tyler Durden, Ivandjiiski was interviewed on Bloomberg Radio[3][8] and Zero Hedge has been quoted in the Columbia Journalism Review.[9]

In December 2012, Bank of America blocked its employees' access to Zero Hedge.[10]

Zero Hedge celebrated one billion views in June 2013.[11]

Bill Gross, the head of PIMCO, is an avid Zero Hedge reader. On August 9, 2013 he tweeted, "Gross: Strategists/writers I follow? Dalio, Durden, Bianco, Arnott, Aitken, Santelli, Grant, Grantham, Inker, Marks, Quaintenance & Brodsky."[12]

Exposing Goldman Sachs

Zero Hedge is credited with bringing flash trading to public attention in 2009 with a series of posts alleging that Goldman Sachs had access to flash order information, allowing the firm to gain unfair profits.[3] It used New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) data to detect Goldman's flash trading advantage. The site contends that Goldman Sachs' alumni are at the center of a powerful cabal and that the solution is "a purifying market crash that leads to the elimination of the big banks altogether and the reinstatement of genuine free-market capitalism" - "Dow Zero."[3] The site drew the attention of the mainstream financial media and became a news source for reporters. Bloomberg News published stories based on Zero Hedge’s posts, such as “Goldman Sachs Loses Grip on Its Doomsday Machine,” by columnist Jonathan Weil.[3][13] The New York Times ran a front-page story on the high-frequency trading, detailing how it translated into billions of dollars of profit for Goldman Sachs and hedge funds.[14] The NYSE has since made a rule change and no longer releases the data used by Zero Hedge.[3]

Matt Taibbi, in his book Griftopia, cites Zero Hedge in the last chapter as accurately assessing the level of corruption in the banking industry and credits its inside advantage. He questions why the mainstream financial media did not earlier detect the corruption at Goldman Sachs. Taibbi writes:[15]
“ Right around that same time, there were three media stories that helped focus a swirl of seriously negative attention on the bank. My piece was one, New York magazine's Joe Hagan wrote another, and the third was a series of stories by a heretofore little-known blogger who went by the nom de plume of "Tyler Durden" on a blog called Zero Hedge.

Durden's blog was written in an impenetrable Wall Street jargon, and the man himself – later outed by nosy reporters as an Eastern European trader who had been sanctioned by FINRA – was intimidating even to Wall Street insiders. "Zero Hedge, man, he makes my head hurt" was a typical comment from my Wall Street sources.

Beginning in early 2009 Durden had been on a jihad about Goldman, having sifted through trading data to make what he insisted was an airtight case proving that the bank's high-frequency or "flash" trading desk was engaged in some sort of large-scale manipulation of the New York Stock Exchange. Durden drew his conclusions by scrupulously analyzing trading data the NYSE released each week. So what happened? Naturally, the NYSE on June 24 changed its rules and stopped releasing the data, seemingly to protect Goldman from Zero Hedge's meddling.

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(Reuters) - The Dutch head of a team sent to identify the victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 praised the Ukrainian recovery workers who collected hundreds of bodies from a giant swathe of land in a war zone for doing a "hell of a job".

Peter van Vliet, leader of a 3-man team of Dutch body identification experts, the first international investigators to visit the crash area, said his priority would be getting hundreds of bodies now stored in refrigerated rail cars to a location where they can be identified and sent home.

Despite reports that some of the bodies may have been looted and were never properly secured during days lying out in summer sun, van Vliet expressed admiration for the recovery crews that gathered them.

"I'm very impressed about the work that was done over here," he said after inspecting the main crash site, where bodies were still being found a day earlier pinned under chunks of aircraft wreckage. Citing the heat and the scale of the site, he said: "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place."

Asked how he felt as a Dutchman at a site where so many of his countrymen were killed, he said he had goosebumps despite the heat.

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The head of the Malaysian delegation told reporters that the recorders were "in good condition".

The handover followed talks between the rebel commander and self-styled Prime Minister of the Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Borodai and the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak, Mr Najib said in statement.

He also said those talks led to the rebels agreeing to allow the bodies to be transported to Kharkiv and international investigators to access the area.

"In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel and that I feel," he said.

"But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome."

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I've seen various opinions on their value. I think at first it was more of if someone is trying to hide them then that shows guilt.

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The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose? ....

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And Obama was going to do the same to Syria. If it hadn't been for that rather impressive fleet of Russian warships and aircraft-carrier destroyers off the coast of Syria, we would have gone whole-hog into bombing Syria too. In fact, I'm reasonably certain that it was that Russian fleet in the eastern Mediterranean (coming from the Sevastopol naval base) that put Ukraine back on the front burner.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what do you think will happen next?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Interesting. When I read that it was attributed to a pro-Russia separatist.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND

Did you know that- according to Kiev- there was chloroform in the Odessa Trades Union building, and that the victims (who were so clearly killed and THEN burned, as the pictures showed) "actually" died of partially- combusted chloroform instead? I wonder... Has Kiev not YET done autopsies on the victims to determine cause of death? Why is this still a matter of speculation?

Did you know that there was a mink coat which came to life, but it's owner to death and then ran off? It's TRUE! I saw it at the checkstand!

If you notice, I don't quote those stories.

And unfortunately, not reading Russian, I can't tell how much of this is official, or the equivalent of checkstand nonsense. If it's official, it would tend to increase pressure on Putin to "do something" in Ukraine, and right now Putin seems completely unwilling to do anything. It's the equivalent of Obama drawing "red lines" which he then slinks away from. If official, it's counterproductive to Putin staying in power over the long term. If not official ... the equivalent of the Enquirer... then it's just the same as some of media which prints nonsense.

Anyway, that's why I try to stick to verifiable evidence.

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One, I don't believe a word you say

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A top Ukrainian Interior Ministry official said on May 19 that 32 pro-Russia protesters who retreated inside Odessa’s Trade Unions building after clashes with pro-Ukraine activists and later died when the building was torched on May 2 might have been poisoned with chloroform.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not trying to divert attention, just trying to keep it where it belongs: On the evidence. That's why I don't care WHERE the info comes from- if it's verifiable then it's good. You OTOH seem to need someone to tell you what the truth is.

Did you notice that I posted a new thread from Zerohedge which carries a USA news release about the proposed trajectory of the missile? Go check it out. It will be in the mainstream press later.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But you won't admit you're wrong about the chloroform article. Of course. And now, YOU'RE just trying to divert attention. Hey, I got a real life, and engaging in nonsense with you isn't on the list of priorities.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


...Why the hell was Malaysian Airlines flying over that airspace? All airlines were warned back in April to avoid that region.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
A simple use of the map function here would help you sort out who is where and should help you disprove at least some of your suspicions.

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….Mal4prez

THGRRI has been arguing the same ideas as me on this thread, but the way he tumbles is just like you and rap. Dickish, name-calling, taking every thread into a personal fight so that his roll with you becomes the focus. And in recent posts he claims to know what you were like when you were reasonable in long past years, even though he just joined a few months ago. Hmm.

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Originally posted by second:
Anne Applebaum on MH17: What happened, how it happened and who was responsible
Some months ago the Russians invaded eastern Ukraine in a very unorthodox manner.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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