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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Meanwhile, the USA intelligence agencies do a major walk-back from the assertions they were making, oh just a few short hours ago, when they had proof... PROOF, I TELL YOU! VIDEOS! ... All over the media!..... that Russia gave missiles to the separatists

US: No direct link to Russia found in MH17 attack
http://nypost.com/2014/07/22/us-no-evidence-of-direct-link-to-russia-i
n-mh17-attack/

U.S.: No evidence of Russian government in plane downing
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/us-evidence-direct-russian-link-pl
ane/


US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing
http://news.msn.com/world/us-no-link-to-russian-govt-in-plane-downing

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The United States has found no direct link between the Russian government and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last week, three senior intelligence officials said Tuesday.

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The officials repeated their belief that pro-Russian separatists fired the missile that took out the jetliner over Ukraine, killing 298 people, but they said they could not say definitively that the separatists did it.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
You keep trying though Signym. This is one of those you lost before you even started and definitely shows you to be if nothing else someone who moved here for a better life that just can't stand to admit this is a much better place that whence you came.

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WASHINGTON — The United States government has concluded that the passenger jet felled over Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile launched from rebel-held territory and most likely provided by Russia to pro-Moscow separatists, officials said on Friday.

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The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.

Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites.

The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine even after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which killed 298 civilians.

Analysts at the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are continuing to examine information about the crash, but the officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.

The senior intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.

That is not a plausible scenario,” said one senior U.S. official, who noted that American intelligence agencies have confirmed that Ukraine had no antiaircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck.

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Please, the Rappy impression is getting old.
Or is just an impression-?

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Originally posted by G:
Are you saying The Western Media (whoever that is) is not on a short gov leash? I thought that was one of your things? This might be a watershed moment.

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I agree with the problem of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, in terms of ethnic Russians who want to live under Russian rule. Isn't there another way to solve that problem without tanks and rockets?

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The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.

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The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov

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Just to clarify: I was speaking of Signym having a watershed moment. She used to say how the Western press was bought and paid for by the Gov., and yet to make her point in this case, she's fine quoting some pretty tired, main stream western press outlets. Now they're bad, now they're fine - eh?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trained and supplied with BUK anti-aircraft rockets? Or just generally "trained and supplied"?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
For those not familiar with geography, Rostov-On-Don is a Russian city which about 120 miles from Donetsk, or about 60 miles to the Ukrainian border. Would be interested to know how they came up with THAT conclusion. Satellite photos?

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Originally posted by G:
Are you saying The Western Media (whoever that is) is not on a short gov leash? I thought that was one of your things? This might be a watershed moment.

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Does the media still even have watershed moments? I thought they stopped doing that when journalistic integrity died.

I mean there was a lovely funeral, with clowns and everything, Rupert Murdoch and Piers Morgan had a brawl in the lobby, they served little cakes afterward.

As for all of this, I dunno. I've no doubt the American media is manipulating us, but at the same time, Putin really is a scumbag and he's been leading his country into somewhat questionable actions with Ukraine. And that's even with me thinking that Crimea might be somewhat possibly legitimate due to all the ethnic Russians there.

This is one of those things where I don't think it's going to be possible to know who to believe and we may never know for sure. Probably time to visit the fringe sites and start piecing together our own narrative.

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Just to clarify: I was speaking of Signym having a watershed moment. She used to say how the Western press was bought and paid for by the Gov., and yet to make her point in this case, she's fine quoting some pretty tired, main stream western press outlets. Now they're bad, now they're fine - eh?

I agree with the problem of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, in terms of ethnic Russians who want to live under Russian rule. Isn't there another way to solve that problem without tanks and rockets?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Please, the Rappy impression is getting old.
Or is just an impression-?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
I just gotta ask 1kiki, did you watch the video above your post or the story I posted by the associated press with the rebel leader? Both the video and news story goes a long way to show everything said about the shoot down was correct. Watch the video.

Some might even see it as a confession.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
U.S. Finds No Direct Link to Russia in Downing of MH17

The United States has found no direct link between the Russian government and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last week, three senior intelligence officials said Tuesday.

...

Compare that with Obama's earlier statement that they had 'confidence' the missile came from separatist-controlled areas: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-17/malaysia-jet-shot-down-in-ukr
aine-near-russia-ifx-says.html starting @~ 10:15

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I read that the billboard was for a car dealership just a kilometer or two down the road in a town NOT controlled by the separatists.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And - headline! Major retraction! G said the Queen of England didn't do it! LOL!

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Wait a sec - find where I said "The Queen of England shot down MH17!" Go ahead! I said she dated a Russian Separatist dude once and shot him down, that's hardly the same thing. :)

heh, I mock us.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I've read several versions of the story. Other people said he was misquoted. HE said he was misquoted. He says a unit had BUKs, then (in your version, p3) he says he doesn't know for sure. It's a case of he said - he said. This is really just more blah blah blah - and very confused blah blah.

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.....G

I sure hope that guy has a go bag.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL

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Pointless as usual.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL

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Pointless as usual.

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Humorless as usual.

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Considering that the U.S. can identify what type of missile was used and where it was fired from by its radar emissions and the damage to the aircraft, seems that they can say that... and they have.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, I don't consider them proof...

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Yeah, you wore it out long ago. Make an effort to not be a dick, and you might earn back the right to be taken with a sense of humor.

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Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian provided this update three hours ago.

Hello Mish,

On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was alleged to be a rebel “Buk” launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was probably viewed by several million people.

Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam’s official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:

On the CBS program “Face the Nation,” Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with “a missing missile or so.”

The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was crossing the border with Russia.

However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev’s control since May.

In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.

Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev’s control since May.

At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on researching that one for you.

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Falsifying the Case

To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”

“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.

USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.

Snyder noted that “the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”

On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).

“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”

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I would love to take credit for that picture Sig but alas that post belongs to G.

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Sig, please, the reason I have had such a hard time dealing with your posts is because you post constantly how the west is up to this or that, has done this or that while showing little regard for and even dismissing the facts.

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I would love to see you hold to the same impossibly high standards when judging the rest of the world as when Russia is the one under the microscope.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.

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Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.

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Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.

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Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.

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Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.

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That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).

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FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"

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Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.-signy

And the Russians would of course be completely honest and forthcoming about such verification. Riiiggghhhttt.-geezer

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Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.-signy

Like reports by several different media outlets about materials in the crash site, such as luggage and parts of the plane, being moved or removed? -geezer

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What if the U.S. provided copies of radar tracks of the airliner and the missile? Would you consider that "a wealth of detail...hard to fake"?

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Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.-signy

What do you consider "Both sides"? If you're correct, Russia and the Separatists weren't involved at all, so why should they care?-geezer

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Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.-signy

Like the separatist leader saying SA-11 missiles were in rebel-held territory when the airliner was shot down?-geezer

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Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.-signy

Cute, after the separatists had control of the black boxes for several days before turning them over. Plenty of time for movement, sabotage, alteration of data, etc. Not to mention the lack of chain of custody of the rest of the aircraft and credible reports that parts were moved or removed.-geezer

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That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).-signy

U.S. intelligence has reported that the recordings of Separatists claiming a shoot-down match voiceprint analysis of those same individuals at other times. Not verifiable enough for you, I'd bet.-geezer

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FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"-signy

There is kind'a a war going on there. separatists have been shooting down aircraft and firing rocket artillery at the Kiev forces as well. Think the separatists would go for a cease-fire so the investigation teams can come in? The Netherlands have asked Putin to try to influence such a cease-fire. Do you know if he has done so?-geezer

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"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, so whatever lessons you "think" you've drawn from it are irrelevant.

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