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…New
The similarities to Vietnam are scary. How long do we prop up a weak and corrupt regime that we think is on our side, but is only loyal because we'll do the heavy work and let them cruise along; then collapse when we expect them to carry on the job by themselves?

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….New
No matter how much we hope and claim so, their values do not match ours. ALL sides there are anti-American and pro-Iranian, it's just a question of degree, and how much they have to pretend to agree with us to get us to keep doing the work and sending the money.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Point of fact, Obama pulled us out, we were not told to leave. The focal point of all this was the Status of Forces agreement between Iraq and the US.

He was far more interested in keeping a campaign promise over a war he never thought we should have started than keeping peace in the region.

As for recent events in Iraq, standard operating procedure for Barry - blame anyone but himself. He was TOLD about what was going on with ISIS, and yet he didn't care. Not his problem. Any screw up taking place in Iraq was , in HIS view, a direct result of Bush's failed policy, and Barry could care less.

And now he's trying to say it was 'bad intel' which kept him from knowing just how bad ISIS really was. This is the same ISIS group that Obama himself referred to as the JV team, in comparison to al- Qaeda.

Effing moron ...

Also, as for Syria, it's pretty simple. We backed the wrong " rebels ". You see, it's not so simple to draw a clean line between Asad and those trying to overthrow him. We would have done well enough to simply back the FSA ( Free Syrian Army ) but noooo. We insanely backed the Muslim Brotherhood supported thugs, which turn out to be - SHOCKER ! ISIS. Blame can be spread around well enough ( Maverick McCain, I'm looking right at YOU ! ) , but the fact of the matter is, Barry is the President. His ties to the Muslim Brotherhood clearly have had a role in all this, and blood is on HIS hands.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Thanks for the WH party line, but I'm not buying it. The only folks who wanted us out completely were those who support ISIS.

How's that working out for the DEMOCRACY of Iraq now ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true. And there in lies the error of your thinking.

If what you said WERE true, then I can see how you'd arrive at the conclusion you did. But it isn't. You're buying the admin's line, and until you educate yourself , there's nothing more I can say on this matter.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true.

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Simply find a quote from a reasonably reputable source stating that our troops would have been under U.S. laws whist staying & prove your point then.


But you can't.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true.

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Simply find a quote from a reasonably reputable source stating that our troops would have been under U.S. laws whist staying & prove your point then.


But you can't.

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It's called going to bat for what is right. Many in Iraq wanted us there, many did not. Obama never wanted us there, and summarily got us the hell out, which resulted in ISIS waltzing in , just like they did.

See above link. Question already answered.

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Hillary Clinton, Siding With Republicans, Criticizes Obama's 'Don't Do Stupid Stuff' Iraq, ISIS, Syria Policies

In a lengthy foreign policy interview for The Atlantic, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton echoed many of the same critiques of President Barack Obama's "don't do stupid stuff" foreign policy mantra recently offered by Republicans.

"Great nations need organizing principles, and 'Don't do stupid stuff' is not an organizing principle," Clinton told Jeffrey Goldberg in the interview conducted early last week and published Sunday.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/hillary-clinton-siding-with-republic
ans-criticizes-obamas-dont-do-stupid-stuff-iraq-isis-syria-policies-124670/

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

And per Iraq, Obama didn't WANT an agreement. That's the point you're missing. He wanted out, entirely.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Hillary wanted us to go into Iraq in the first place. The colossal mistake that started this. I would say to Hillary what Bill Clinton said about the gripes of Cheney and Obama not working hard enough to clean up his mess. Hillary is running for President and she sees which way the wind is blowing. She better hope in two years she is not defending herself again about saying what she is saying now. So far Joe Biden is the one who called it right.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

And per Iraq, Obama didn't WANT an agreement. That's the point you're missing. He wanted out, entirely.

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Doesn't matter, that's not the issue, except in you own little mind.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Well, you've outed yourself AGAIN, Rappy, Good Job!

PROTip: Timestamps!
A little patience goes a long way!

-Frem

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]Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Well, you've outed yourself AGAIN, Rappy, Good Job!

PROTip: Timestamps!
A little patience goes a long way!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

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]Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Well, you've outed yourself AGAIN, Rappy, Good Job!

PROTip: Timestamps!
A little patience goes a long way!

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I've been wondering why he's been doing this. He's actually done a better than average job with the alternate character, just minor if apparent-to-us slip ups. But reasonably good jobs coming up with anti-Rap arguments. Is it a compulsion or something?
If I were new to a board & was told I sounded like someone else and saw that it was true, I'd alter it a bit to not be confused with the other person. But again, that's a real reaction, not a made up slip-up.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Quote:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

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]Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Well, you've outed yourself AGAIN, Rappy, Good Job!

PROTip: Timestamps!
A little patience goes a long way!

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I've been wondering why he's been doing this. He's actually done a better than average job with the alternate character, just minor if apparent-to-us slip ups. But reasonably good jobs coming up with anti-Rap arguments. Is it a compulsion or something?
If I were new to a board & was told I sounded like someone else and saw that it was true, I'd alter it a bit to not be confused with the other person. But again, that's a real reaction, not a made up slip-up.

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Well, I find it offensive to my villainous pride that he's so goddamn desperate he can't even manage the pretense properly, at least *PRETEND* the sockpuppet isn't himself, hold off for fifteen-plus minutes befoe posting the jackboot salivation party, you know ?

But no, he's so hell-bent on trying to prove he isn't ALONE, unwanted, unwelcome, and so thoroughly deluded that no sane person would ever agree with his madness that he quickly rotates though the self-fellating logins in such a fashion as is obvious to all who can count to eleven without taking their shoes off, and it reveals him utterly for the slime that he truly is and always has been.

-Frem

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Originally posted by AURaptor:



Tooo precious !

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:



Tooo precious !

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well put.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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By Frem's and your genius powers of deduction, I'm Niki !!

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You're just too stupid.
Later player.

Quote:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Rappy this last post by you is a good post. I have to go out but will address it in about an hour or so. Hope you check back.

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....Rappy
NBC’s David Gregory had some unpredictably harsh words for the White House during an interview with Senator Dick Durbin on Sunday, noting that “a big, expansive terrorist threat that has amassed” under President Obama’s watch.

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….Rappy

The “Meet the Press” host spoke with the Illinois Democrat over the limited air campaign ordered by the president to blunt the advance of ultra-violent jihadists in northern Iraq. Gregory requested the senator’s insight as to how the United States found itself again involved in the region.

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....Rappy
“Is the problem that the Obama administration — wanting to be something other than President Bush – got out of the business of confronting terrorism on a big, global scale and just dealt with it in a more limited way?” he asked. “Is it an underreaction to the terrorist threat?”

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….Rappy
“The Obama team said, ‘We are not in the business of a global fight against terror, we’re fighting al-Qaida in limited forms,” the NBC host continued. “This is a big, expansive terrorist threat that has amassed on his watch.”

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….Rappy
Top NBC reporters Chuck Todd and Andrea Mitchell turned on President Obama over his excuses for Iraq’s unravelling on Sunday, with Todd claiming he never tried to secure a 2011 troop agreement with the Iraqi government and Mitchell calling the White House’s bad intelligence excuse “a farce.”

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….Rappy
The pair unloaded on the Obama administration during Sunday’s “Meet the Press,” calling it aimless and needling its excuses for the sudden surge of ultra-violent jihadis in northern Iraq.

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….Rappy
As American bombs again fall on that country, President Obama responded to criticism that we should have left troops inside Iraq after 2011 by claiming the Iraqi government pushed the U.S. out.

“But, this president ideologically did not want to use more influence to –” host David Gregory began. “Look, this was not an administration that was eager to tell [Iraqi Prime Minister] Maliki, ‘Oh, you don’t want a status-of-forces agreement?’” Todd agreed, explaining how the White House failed to pursue any agreement that would have left a stabilizing force.

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….Rappy
“I’ve been trying to figure out this man’s doctrine now for six years,” Todd continued. “He doesn’t have one . . . He pushes and pulls between the idea of democracy first and stability first . . . Now he’s trying for stability first, and I think in this case he’s struggling.”

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Good post Rappy. It was worth discussing without the usual poke in the eye shit.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Nice follow up to this...

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Good post Rappy. It was worth discussing without the usual poke in the eye shit.

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Psycho much ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

What 'link to my past' are you referring ?

I never claimed any such thing as you are suggesting, so utterly out of context and unrelated to this thread, I have no idea what in the sam hill you're yammering about.

Glad ya like the River sig. One of my all time favs.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm less inclined to carry on a civil discussion w/ those who name call and wish I'd be shot for things I don't believe or things I never said.


Hope you understand.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm less inclined to carry on a civil discussion w/ those who name call and wish I'd be shot for things I don't believe or things I never said.


Hope you understand.

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I do understand. I went back and found the post Fern posted a link to and in reading it again realized my mistake in what you said. Here is the part I misread and what set me off. In fact reading it again I kind of agree to this passage.

I was wrong and I do apologize.

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Originally posted by THGRRI: Monday, August 11, 2014 12:58 PM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Meanwhile...

EXPERT: Obama's Reconciliation With Iran Helps Fuel Middle East Mayhem


On Friday July 25, as war raged in Gaza, John Kerry delivered a draft ceasefire agreement to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who then presented it to his security cabinet for consideration.

Because the proposal granted Hamas a significant political victory, acquiescing, up front, in a number of the terrorist group’s key demands.

While failing even to mention Israel’s two primary concerns of infiltration tunnels and rockets—the ministers unanimously rejected it.

When unnamed officials leaked the document to Israel’s habitually left-leaning press, along with an account of the government’s thinking, a firestorm of indignation erupted—not, however, at Netanyahu but at the American Secretary of State. The views of one highly respected journalist were typical. Kerry’s proposal, he wrote, “raises serious doubts over his judgment. . . . It’s as if he isn’t the foreign minister of the world’s most powerful nation but an alien who just disembarked his spaceship in the Middle East.”



Read more: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/iran-at-saban/posts/2014/08/13-doran-ob
ama-middle-east-policy-danger-to-allies#ixzz3ASpTBRVK



Short verion of all this - the admin is utterly incompetent and in way over their heads.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
The similarities to Vietnam are scary.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

At least 1 in 10 of the radicals who head the Middle East to fight come from Europe.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Do not underestimate Israel’s agenda and what happens if you threaten that.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm less inclined to carry on a civil discussion w/ those who name call and wish I'd be shot for things I don't believe or things I never said.


Hope you understand.

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I do understand. I went back and found the post Fern posted a link to and in reading it again realized my mistake in what you said.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:_Monday, August 11, 2014 12:58 PM

My insights into why the critics on the far right are wrong.

They always want to jump in feet first as the winds change direction in the Middle East. A place where moods, politics and loyalties change as easily as the sands shift with the winds. George Bush sold the world on Iraq and the Middle East being ripe for Democracy. So we invested Billions, even trillions out of our treasury. We saw thousands of American soldiers die and around 45 to fifty thousand wounded. Well Iraq has collapsed. The conservatives here will say it is Obamas fault for not leaving troops behind. Iraq is sovereign and they told us to leave. He had no choice. Even if we were still there, we would be playing out the role of being Maliki’s private army. An army to keep in check the various sects who Maliki strong armed out of the military and from places of power within his administration. No, that is not a good role for us to play. Iraq fell apart because the politics within Iraq was not right. The people of Iraq were not ready to come together to create an inclusive government. Lesson 1, pouring lots of guns, money and troops into a Middle Eastern country will not work in terms of stabilizing it.

The next thing we tried was limited air strikes with no boots on the ground in Libya. After we achieved our objective, it too fell apart because the politics within the country was wrong. The people could not come together to create an inclusive government. So limited air strikes will not work to stabilize a Middle Eastern country. Two strategies tried and failed.

Without learning the lessons of these two wars the Republicans are all over the President for not arming the rebels in Syria. They blame him for the development of ISIS as though arming the middle class in Syria would lead to victory. A victory over a trained army supplied and supported by Russia and Iran. Easy to say arm the freedom fighters in Syria but we don’t know who they are. We cannot find many who are not crazy to whom we should give weapons. There is no one there who has a planned out agenda we can get behind. With that the thousands who flock to Syria to fight are all radical. You don’t see moderates leaving home to take up the cause. Syria too, is a country that has the same make up as the rest of the Middle East. So why do some believe that had we armed a few school teachers this would end in success? One good thing is Hamas was helping to prop up the Syrian government and they just got the snot kicked out of them by Israel. This will hinder the support they can provide to the Syrian government.

Addressing what’s happening in the Middle East means we need to be very selective and calm. ISIS could be rolled back rather quickly with air and intelligence support from us provided to the right people. The moderate leaning Muslims across the Middle East (of which there are many more than radicals) have to make up their mind they have had enough. They have to stand up in mass. The Sunnis will decide they do not want to live like ISIS demands and will route them as they did Al Qaeda. We will help them as we did before but they have to be ready. The Kurds have been our best allies there and we should continue to support them. As that transpires and Iraq picks new leadership things will shift again. One telltale sign the moderates may have had enough is the lack of support for Hamas across the Arab world.

To all those out there who have criticized the United States for not helping to force change in the past, perhaps living with the devil you know looks a little more like good policy than it did a week ago. We can no more create a country of our choosing in the Middle East with our army and money as we can stand by and do nothing. One thing is for certain. At least 1 in 10 of the radicals who head the Middle East to fight come from Europe. They better wake up and help form a collation that works together to determine who we assist and how we help the Middle East through its transition. It’s London and France that are going to get it the worst when these radicals return home. They have been napping for a generation now, and as well as in the Middle East they need to act decisively with Russia as well. The smart money has always been on the Arab Spring taking about 10 to 20 years to work itself out. Thank god for the NSA, we are going to really need them now.
T

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