The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons by AURaptor

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

I wanted to know why the US lost in Iraq. Finally I know the US defeated itself. Quotes from the story:

Troops and officers were instructed to be silent or give deceptive accounts of what they had found. “'Nothing of significance’ is what I was ordered to say,” said Jarrod Lampier, a recently retired Army major who was present for the largest chemical weapons discovery of the war: more than 2,400 nerve-agent rockets unearthed in 2006 at a former Republican Guard compound.

Jarrod L. Taylor, a former Army sergeant on hand for the destruction of mustard shells that burned two soldiers in his infantry company, joked of “wounds that never happened” from “that stuff that didn’t exist.” The public, he said, was misled for a decade.

The discoveries of these chemical weapons did not support the government’s invasion rationale.

After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an active weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk.

In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.

Others pointed to another embarrassment. In five of six incidents in which troops were wounded by chemical agents, the munitions appeared to have been designed in the United States, manufactured in Europe and filled in chemical agent production lines built in Iraq by Western companies.

With remarkable speed, Iraq built a program with equipment and precursor purchases from companies in an extraordinary array of countries, eventually including the United States

The Pentagon did not provide this information to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence as it worked in the summer of 2006 examining intelligence claims about Iraq’s weapons programs.
Even as the Senate committee worked, the American Army made its largest chemical weapons find of the war: more than 2,400 Borak rockets.
The military did not disclose this as the Senate worked; instead, it stood by data from the Army’s National Ground Intelligence Center that it had declassified in late June, leading the Senate to publish an inaccurate report.

The publicly released information also skirted the fact that most of the chemical artillery shells were traceable to the West, some tied to the United States.
These shells, which the American military calls M110s, had been developed decades ago in the United States.
All the while secrecy prevailed. The military determined the soldiers had been burned by an M110 shell. Both victims said word of their exposure was purposefully squelched.
“We were absolutely told not to talk about it” by a colonel, the former sergeant said. The order, he added, included prohibitions against mentioning mustard agent when writing home.
The secrecy was so extensive that Dr. Lounsbury said he suspected officials hid the cases even from him and two other Army doctors assigned to prepare an official textbook on treating battlefield wounds.
Mr. Beasley, who was honorably discharged in 2008, said the Army’s position was dismissive. “I remember it being, basically, that we wounded ourselves,” he said, which he called “baloney.”
“I didn’t put that shell in that hole,” he said. “And I did exactly what we were supposed to do when we dealt with an I.E.D.”

Mr. Klibenski said an officer visited the other five exposed Marines at Balad and urged them not to talk about what had happened. “They told us that this was something that was going to be kept confidential for a long time,” he said.

Still the doctors resisted. It was as if, Sergeant Duling said, the staff suspected the soldiers were malingerers. “We came in, we’re not bleeding, we’re not missing body parts,” he said. “So they were kind of like, ‘What’s your problem? ‘Are’ — you know, typical response – ‘are you trying to get out of duty?’
“It was sheer stupidity on their part.”

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 11:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Interesting article thanks.

It shows that Saddam did NOT have an active WMD program, but that what was found were remnants of old, lost/ abandoned chemical shells from the late 80s, traceable to the USA. (The USA wanted Iraq to use these weapons against Iran, and provided satellite intel and "ground truth" on chemical weapons use against Iranian troops. Blowback is a bitch, isn't it?)

Of all of the WMD, there are only three that I know of which stay potent for extended periods, in approximate order of "shelf life" ....

Carefully sporolated anthrax
Mustard gas
Some radioactive isotopes

One of the other things that "didn't happen" in Iraq was the use of depleted uranium shells and white phosphorous, neither of which are good for the troops that are exposed to them.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 12:42 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Revisionist History 101: Bush Was Right About Iraq WMD!

http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/15/despite-attempts-revise-h
istory-bush-still-wrong-iraqi-wmds/

Perhaps the most movingly pitiful exercise in American politics is the periodic attempt by Iraq War advocates to grasp at new developments that might somehow vindicate their support of that endeavor.

The latest attempt came yesterday, when The New York Times published an explosive new story on American soldiers who were wounded while handling corroded munitions extracted from Saddam Hussein’s inactive chemical weapons program. The Iraq Study Group has long documented the existence of these decrepit and corroded weapons stocks in Iraq, something which has precisely nothing to do with the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” claims purveyed by war supporters.

Given this readily available information, one would think that people would focus on the human tragedy exposed by this story and not use it as an attempt to revise history. But, sadly, one would be wrong:

Quote:
So WMD were, in fact, found in Iraq. Unfortunately, 'Bush Wasn't Lying' is not an especially catchy slogan … http://t.co/iYaZdrT3l0

— Philip Terzian (@PhilipTerzian) October 14, 2014

Can't we all just agree it's a good thing that George W. Bush kept us safe from these weapons getting into the hands of Islamic extremists

— Benjy Sarlin (@BenjySarlin) October 14, 2014

Can we also agree that those who mocked any statement that there were WMD's in Iraq in '03 & '04 were/are wrong?

— Brad Dayspring (@BDayspring) October 14, 2014

Despite the fact that the article repeatedly points out that none of its revelations validate the claims made to justify the war, it has still been seized upon by hawks as some kind of retroactive justification. This is not just ahistorical; it evinces an absolutely staggering ignorance of the realities of American involvement in Iraq.

The inconvenient truth is that the U.S. was aware of the existence of such weapons at the Al Muthanna site as far back as 1991. Why? Because Al Muthanna was the site where the UN ordered Saddam Hussein to dispose of his declared chemical munitions in the first place. Those weapons that could not safely be destroyed were sealed and left to decay on their own, which they did. The site was neither “active” nor “clandestine” – it was a declared munitions dump being used to hold the corroded weapons which Western powers themselves had in most cases helped Saddam procure.

The fact that people thoroughly invested in supporting the war apparently had no idea about this is in many ways emblematic of their complete cluelessness about the country which they helped destroy.

ISIS militants very recently came into control of the Al-Muthanna site, a development which would never have come about were it not for the chaos wrought by the Iraq War. Strangely enough, this event was not similarly seized upon by war advocates as a glorious vindication of Bush’s WMD claims.

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 3:57 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Interesting article thanks.

It shows that Saddam did NOT have an active WMD program, but that what was found were remnants of old, lost/ abandoned chemical shells from the late 80s, traceable to the USA. (The USA wanted Iraq to use these weapons against Iran, and provided satellite intel and "ground truth" on chemical weapons use against Iranian troops. Blowback is a bitch, isn't it?)

USA, France, others... but this was already known. Iraq had WMD. Just as Bush and Cheney said. We KNEW this, all along, not only because Saddam used them on his own citizens, but because we and others SOLD them WMD !!!!

Any time you possess and store Chem weaponized shells, and you USE them, you HAVE an ' active ' WMD program.

Bush was 100% right. And the Left absolutely is beside itself.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are beside ourselves too, because Bush was too much of a coward to come out and tell us the truth.

Quote:

Of all of the WMD, there are only three that I know of which stay potent for extended periods, in approximate order of "shelf life" ....

Carefully sporolated anthrax
Mustard gas
Some radioactive isotopes

One of the other things that "didn't happen" in Iraq was the use of depleted uranium shells and white phosphorous, neither of which are good for the troops that are exposed to them.

Nice red herring there at the end, to try to segue away and divert attention from the fact that Bush and Cheney were absolutely, undeniably 100% RIGHT per WMD in IRAQ.

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

The United States had invaded Iraq to reduce the risk of the weapons of mass destruction that it presumed Mr. Hussein still possessed. And after years of encountering and handling Iraq’s old chemical arms, it had retroactively informed the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons in 2009 that it had recovered more than 4,500 chemical weapons.

But it had not shared this data publicly. And as it prepared to withdraw, old stocks set loose after the invasion were still circulating. Al Muthanna had still not been cleaned up.

Finding, safeguarding and destroying these weapons was to be the responsibility of Iraq’s government.

Iraq took initial steps to fulfill its obligations. It drafted a plan to entomb the contaminated bunkers on Al Muthanna, which still held remnant chemical stocks, in concrete.

When three journalists from The Times visited Al Muthanna in 2013, a knot of Iraqi police officers and soldiers guarded the entrance. Two contaminated bunkers — one containing cyanide precursors and old sarin rockets — loomed behind. The area where Marines had found mustard shells in 2008 was out of sight, shielded by scrub and shimmering heat.

The Iraqi troops who stood at that entrance are no longer there. The compound, never entombed, is now controlled by the Islamic State.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casu
alties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html

You are a liar.
You are lying.
There were no chemical weapons.
Never.
Ever.
The libtards said so, so it must be true.
The MSM reported so, so it must be true.
The anti-Bushies denied this truth, so it musty be a lie.

You should be ashamed of yourself for lying to the world.
Maybe you are a racist as well?
And a scoundrel?

And with such flimsy news sources as something called nytimes, who could possibly believe such rubbish?

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 4:47 PM

America loves a winner!

you forgot to add that i'm stupid.

c'mon...

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 7:04 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Nice red herring there at the end, to try to segue away and divert attention from the fact that Bush and Cheney were absolutely, undeniably 100% RIGHT per WMD in IRAQ.

Was Bush 100% right when he said (in 2002) that Iraq was actively developing ever more powerful WMDs, including nukes?

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/bush.transcript/

Anyone who can read that speech making the case for war and not be disgusted by it, I will be amazed by.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, October 15, 2014 11:33 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Nice red herring there at the end, to try to segue away and divert attention from the fact that Bush and Cheney were absolutely, undeniably 100% RIGHT per WMD in IRAQ.

Was Bush 100% right when he said (in 2002) that Iraq was actively developing ever more powerful WMDs, including nukes?

Irrelevant. Saddam was in violation of the terms of the Gulf War and of UN sanctions.

Why must we go over this again?

If Bush was wrong about said nuke program, sorry, that doesn't in any way dismiss the REAL ISSUE that Saddam had WMD, and that those weapons were USED!

Quote:

Anyone who can read that speech making the case for war and not be disgusted by it, I will be amazed by.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Yeah, what ever. Obama lies 100 x more and no one gives a flying fornication.

W may have been wrong on some minor issues, but the over all point was absolutely right.

Obama ? If you like your doctor, you can't keep your doctor. PERIOD.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Irrelevant. Saddam was in violation of the terms of the Gulf War and of UN sanctions.

Which the UN was going to determine by sending in Hans Blix as head of UNMOVIC. Too bad our bombing chased him out. We could have saved a few trillion dollars, several thousand American dead, 100,000+ civilians killed, and a destablized state becoming home to ISIS if we had only let Blix finish his job.

Tell me, rappy, was it worth an invasion over old, decrepit weapons?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:24 AM

America loves a winner!

Still viable and dangerous weapons, which Saddam intentionally failed to report or destroy.

Weapons which were used and now will likely be used by the even less scrupulous ISIS monsters.

You were wrong, Sig. Everyone who bleated ' no blood for oil ! ' or ' bush lied, people died !' can go effing SUCK IT.

Oh, and this was the stuff that we KNEW about, and kept a lid on , god knows why, for 10 years.

I'm guessing you STILL don't believe that anything crossed over the Syrian border, in the days and weeks before the invasion, huh ?

Idiots.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:16 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Irrelevant. Saddam was in violation of the terms of the Gulf War and of UN sanctions.

You think it's 'irrelevant' that Saddam's WMD programme and the threat that he posed was massively over-exaggerated by the Bush admin. as it led the country into war? You have no problem with that?

Quote:
W may have been wrong on some minor issues, but the over all point was absolutely right.

If Bush had told the truth - that Saddam had no active WMD programme, just old, decaying stockpiles of chemical weapons that WE supplied him with and NOTHING more - do you really think the country would have followed him to war?

Quote:
Obama ? If you like your doctor, you can't keep your doctor. PERIOD.

Let's look at the mess of Iraq, that Bush made:

- 100,000+ civilians dead and counting
- Thousands of US (and allied) servicemen dead, many more maimed for life
- Trillions of $$$ spent (and counting)
- ISIS created (formerly Al Qaeda in Iraq)
- America's moral standing in the world eroded

And so on and so on. And the worst thing you have for Obama to compare to all this is a domestic healthcare bill that by all objective measures looks like it's going to be a success? This says a lot about the two presidents, and your own irrational partisanship.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 9:00 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
You think it's 'irrelevant' that Saddam's WMD programme and the threat that he posed was massively over-exaggerated by the Bush admin. as it led the country into war? You have no problem with that?

No, not really. I do have issues w/ how Bush ran things after the war, and really would like to know why he didn't jump up and down and show case every bunker of WMD which WAS found.

Quote:

If Bush had told the truth - that Saddam had no active WMD programme, just old, decaying stockpiles of chemical weapons that WE supplied him with and NOTHING more - do you really think the country would have followed him to war?

Bush DID tell the truth. Saddam was being SECRETIVE on what he actually had. The best intel we had, that ANYONE had, was that Saddam was working on and had a WMD program. We've been over this same stuff for over a decade. Why keep denying reality ?

Quote:

Let's look at the mess of Iraq, that Bush made:

- 100,000+ civilians dead and counting
- Thousands of US (and allied) servicemen dead, many more maimed for life
- Trillions of $$$ spent (and counting)
- ISIS created (formerly Al Qaeda in Iraq)
- America's moral standing in the world eroded

And so on and so on. And the worst thing you have for Obama to compare to all this is a domestic healthcare bill that by all objective measures looks like it's going to be a success? This says a lot about the two presidents, and your own irrational partisanship.

Bush didn't MAKE any of that, any more than Churchill or FDR " made " the ruin of Europe from WW2. Really really lame and pathetic attempt on your part.

ACA is anything but a success. But keep believing the WH propaganda.

Obama has depleted the US's moral standing in the world far more than W ever did.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Still viable

Quote:
and dangerous weapons, which Saddam intentionally

or unintentionally

Quote:
failed to report or destroy.

You have an idee fixe about this, drilled into you by post-911 PTSD. You really should get some help for that.

Quote:
I'm guessing you STILL don't believe that anything crossed over the Syrian border, in the days and weeks before the invasion, huh ?

Why the hell would anyone transport decrepit weapons into an Sunni -unfriendly nation? You have a lot of fantasies, rappy. But since there were no weapons convoys heading into Syria, I guess to answer is NO.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:11 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
You think it's 'irrelevant' that Saddam's WMD programme and the threat that he posed was massively over-exaggerated by the Bush admin. as it led the country into war? You have no problem with that?

No, not really. . . . Bush DID tell the truth. . . .

Bush got all his truth from Curveball, the paid informant. The entire justification for war was built on what Curveball said. One guy's word. No evidence needed. That says everything about Bush.

The well known story of Curveball should be known by AURapture:
www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-intel-source-curve-ball-revealed/
www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-na-curveball20nov20-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/pv47v

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:27 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Bush DID tell the truth.

It was 'the truth' that Saddam had an active nuclear program? Listen to yourself.

Quote:
The best intel we had, that ANYONE had,

The intel that Saddam was developing nukes etc COULD NOT have been good intel, because it turned out to be completely wrong. It was bad intel, and guesswork, and it was BUSH's decision to go to war based on it.

Quote:
Bush didn't MAKE any of that, any more than Churchill or FDR " made " the ruin of Europe from WW2.

The invasion of Iraq being compared to Churchill standing up to Hitler - one of the worst historical analogies I've ever heard, lol.

Quote:
Obama has depleted the US's moral standing in the world far more than W ever did.

That's demonstrably false, global opinion polls show international opinion of the US plummeted under Bush, and is now higher under Obama.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 11:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW

So what if everyone knew Saddam had chemical weapons. Everyone has chemical weapons. The supposed imminent threat was that he would give Al Qaeda or other terrorists the materials for them to actually use in big terror attacks in Europe and America. Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and other Democrats said THAT was the big threat ... long before Bush said it after 9/11. But Saddam never did ... I wonder why.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 1:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Why would Saddam fly jet fighters to iran?

But not illegal WMD to Syria , on the eve of a war which was brought on by him denying he had WMD...

Talk about delusion being drilled into someone's head. Wow!!!!

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why would Saddam fly jet fighters to iran?

But not illegal WMD to Syria , on the eve of a war which was brought on by him denying he had WMD...

Talk about delusion being drilled into someone's head. Wow!!!!

The delusion is strong in those you refer to.

Can you be both stupid and racist?

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:02 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why would Saddam fly jet fighters to iran?

But not illegal WMD to Syria , on the eve of a war which was brought on by him denying he had WMD...

Talk about delusion being drilled into someone's head. Wow!!!!

The delusion is strong in those you refer to.

Can you be both stupid and racist?

Don't forget homophobic and a misogynist.

Point of all this is that there WERE WMD in Iraq. WMD that Saddam did NOT report, that Hans Blix and company did NOT find.

Quote:
5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs

Not just a few random shells, lying around in some forgotten back room or closet.

And this was covered up by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT !!!!

THe question I have is WHY ??

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:08 PM

STORYMARK

We get it - you're a HUGE FAN of a war fought for lies, that killed thousands of Americans, even more Iraqis, and made the NeoCons rich.

Because you're a good little follower - you don't care if they lied, or were wrong. All you care about is your goddamned team.

We get it. We really do.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:09 PM

America loves a winner!

No , LIES are what Obama constantly tells Americans.

Bush didn't lie.

Your dogma won't allow you to see this.

Quote:
Jarrod L. Taylor, a former Army sergeant on hand for the destruction of mustard shells that burned two soldiers in his infantry company, joked of “wounds that never happened” from “that stuff that didn’t exist.” The public, he said, was misled for a decade. “I love it when I hear, ‘Oh there weren’t any chemical weapons in Iraq,’ ” he said. “There were plenty.”

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:24 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

The Iraq Study Group has long documented the existence of these decrepit and corroded weapons stocks in Iraq, something which has precisely nothing to do with the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” claims purveyed by war supporters.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No , LIES are what Obama constantly tells Americans.

Bush didn't lie.

Bush did lie. Bush's entire justification for war was built on what Curveball said about WMDs. The story of Curveball is well known. Why does AURaptor still not know? Does AURaptor have some problem about knowing?
www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-intel-source-curve-ball-revealed/
www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-na-curveball20nov20-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/pv47v

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why would Saddam fly jet fighters to iran?

But not illegal WMD to Syria , on the eve of a war which was brought on by him denying he had WMD...

Talk about delusion being drilled into someone's head. Wow!!!!

The delusion is strong in those you refer to.

Can you be both stupid and racist?

Don't forget homophobic and a misogynist.

Point of all this is that there WERE WMD in Iraq. WMD that Saddam did NOT report, that Hans Blix and company did NOT find.
Quote:
5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs

Not just a few random shells, lying around in some forgotten back room or closet.

And this was covered up by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT !!!!

THe question I have is WHY ??

I'm assuming this is an actual question, although it seems you are asking of the sort with no clue.
If you have not already considered this answer, I offer it for you to marinate in.
On the Eve of Invasion, the start of the combat campaign was delayed for several hours. I do remember at the time that there was an announcement of when the engagement had happened, but then following reports about how it was delayed. The delay was while our forces waited before crossing the border, watching the almost endless convoys leaving, going into Syria. The on-scene Commander had decided that those weapons did not need to be in his combat theater, as long as the Iraqis were so helpful in removing them.
This event later proved politically aggravating to Bush43, who likely didn't care that much about the politics. This let the "proof" out the barndoor, but saved countless servicemember lives.
Perhaps not wanting to argue about it, drag the details through the dirt, was what motivated the toning down of the chatter on Chemical Weapons.

Does this provide perspective you had not considered? Or do you think this concept has no merit?
Ummmm, and by "think" I am clearly referring to the likes of RapKnight, Jongs, and such with that question.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:42 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
We get it - you're a HUGE FAN of a war fought for lies, that killed thousands of Americans, even more Iraqis, and made the NeoCons rich.

Because you're a good little follower - you don't care if they lied, or were wrong. All you care about is your goddamned team.

We get it. We really do.

These guys are nothing if not team players.

I only hope other conservatives across the country are as active in promoting the righteousness of the Iraq war, with the midterm elections coming up.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:42 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why would Saddam fly jet fighters to iran?

But not illegal WMD to Syria , on the eve of a war which was brought on by him denying he had WMD...

Talk about delusion being drilled into someone's head. Wow!!!!

The delusion is strong in those you refer to.

Can you be both stupid and racist?

Don't forget homophobic and a misogynist.

Point of all this is that there WERE WMD in Iraq. WMD that Saddam did NOT report, that Hans Blix and company did NOT find.
Quote:
5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs

Not just a few random shells, lying around in some forgotten back room or closet.

And this was covered up by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT !!!!

THe question I have is WHY ??

I'm assuming this is an actual question, although it seems you are asking of the sort with no clue.
If you have not already considered this answer, I offer it for you to marinate in.
On the Eve of Invasion, the start of the combat campaign was delayed for several hours. I do remember at the time that there was an announcement of when the engagement had happened, but then following reports about how it was delayed. The delay was while our forces waited before crossing the border, watching the almost endless convoys leaving, going into Syria. The on-scene Commander had decided that those weapons did not need to be in his combat theater, as long as the Iraqis were so helpful in removing them.
This event later proved politically aggravating to Bush43, who likely didn't care that much about the politics. This let the "proof" out the barndoor, but saved countless servicemember lives.
Perhaps not wanting to argue about it, drag the details through the dirt, was what motivated the toning down of the chatter on Chemical Weapons.

Does this provide perspective you had not considered? Or do you think this concept has no merit?
Ummmm, and by "think" I am clearly referring to the likes of RapKnight, Jongs, and such with that question.

WHERE DID YOU GET THIS STORY FROM?

WHY ARE YOU CERTAIN THE STORY IS TRUE? Hurry up with an answer. Pretty please.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:49 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Iraq Study Group has long documented the existence of these decrepit and corroded weapons stocks in Iraq, something which has precisely nothing to do with the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” claims purveyed by war supporters.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No , LIES are what Obama constantly tells Americans.

Bush didn't lie.
Bush did lie. Bush's entire justification for war was built on what Curveball said about WMDs. The story of Curveball is well known. Why does AURaptor still not know? Does AURaptor have some problem about knowing?

www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-intel-source-curve-ball-revealed/
www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-na-curveball20nov20-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/pv47v

You're wrong. Bush didn't lie. And the distinction between 'old vs new' WMD wasn't the issue. ANY WMD Saddam had was to be turned over or accounted for.

5,000 WMD shells, rockets , at least, weren't.

Sorry that you hate Bush so much that you can't come to grips w/ the facts, but no matter how much it pisses you off, it doesn't mean Bush lied.

If we were given false or misleading information, then that right there proves that Bush didn't LIE. At worst, he was wrong, about some things, and it was bad intel. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that Saddam was in violation of UN sanctions, as well as broke the case fire agreement from Gulf War 1 to hand over and or dispose of ALL WMD.

He failed. And he paid.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
These guys are nothing if not team players.

I only hope other conservatives across the country are as active in promoting the righteousness of the Iraq war, with the midterm elections coming up.

.

Me too, but I doubt it. If Bush didn't have the stones to admit to the world that he was right, and knew he was right, then why the hell should conservatives give 2 flips about him anyways?

Our troops, however, who DID do the right thing, should be proud. At least all Americans should recognize that, and reject any sort of notion that Iraq was " for nothing " , as the Left tries to claim.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 7:22 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Our troops, however, who DID do the right thing, should be proud. At least all Americans should recognize that, and reject any sort of notion that Iraq was " for nothing " , as the Left tries to claim.

Yeah, so great that those chemical weapons that had been decaying in the desert for decades are now falling into the hands of jihadist terror groups created out of the chaos of the Iraq war.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:14 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're wrong. Bush didn't lie.

Bush did lie by repeating Curveball's story. Bush had nothing but Curveball's word. No evidence. Nothing. And yet, Bush repeated the story over and over and over and had other people repeat the same Curveball story over and over.
Curveball admitted to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war
Curveball 'invented' tales of bioweapons
Curveball told lies to try to bring down Saddam Hussein regime
Curveball's fabrications used by US as justification for invasion
www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/15/defector-admits-wmd-lies-iraq-wa
r

Once Curveball was exposed as a fabricator, Bush shutup about WMD's. Bush's game was over. Being from Texas I know how Texans tell lies in a way they can blame someone else for 'misinforming' them.
www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-intel-source-curve-ball-revealed/
www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-na-curveball20nov20-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/pv47v

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:25 PM

America loves a winner!

Well, the definition of what a lie is seems to change as the Left deems necessary.

I guess we all should have left Saddam to his rape and torture rooms, and scamming the UN.

Sure, his 2 sons were even worse than Saddam, but 20,000 ISIS goons are even worse still.

But the underlying fact remains - Iraq had WMD.

Period.

( And so what if ISIS has those weapons now ? They were ' depleted and degraded ' even before the war, in 2002, so why should there be any concern now, + 12 more years ? )

“I love it when I hear, ‘Oh there weren’t any chemical weapons in Iraq,’ ” he said. “There were plenty.”

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 8:59 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Well, the definition of what a lie is seems to change as the Left deems necessary.

Bush was using a Texan's standard operating procedure for lying. When caught, blame somebody for 'misinforming' you. It is easy to understand what game Bush was playing because I've seen it a thousand times before.

Quote:
I guess we all should have left Saddam to his rape and torture rooms, and scamming the UN.

Sure, his 2 sons were even worse than Saddam, but 20,000 ISIS goons are even worse still.

There is a very long and silly story about how Bush made Iraq worse than under Saddam. Republicans have a really poor talent for governing their conquests.

Quote:

But the underlying fact remains - Iraq had WMD.

Period.

Wrong. Period. If those artillery shell ammo dumps are WMD's, then Bush has got some explaining to do about why he did not destroy them. But if artillery shells dumps are Iraqi versions of Superfund abandoned hazardous waste sites then no explanation is necessary because there are millions of tons of nasty poisonous waste (that will kill you if you touch it) buried all over the USA that won't be cleaned up for many years, just like in Iraq. www.epa.gov/superfund/about.htm

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 9:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Always interested me why Iraq having WMD was excuse enough to invade them? Why not invade North Korea, India, China, Russia, Pakestan?

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 9:45 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Always interested me why Iraq having WMD was excuse enough to invade them? Why not invade North Korea, India, China, Russia, Pakestan?

Because N Korea already beat the USA once. It could do it again. Those other countries are bigger than N Korea and would also beat the stuffing out of the Marines and the US Army. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

On the other hand, Iraq had already lost once to the USA. As expected, Iraq easily lost its second war with the USA.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:55 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, speaking of delusions

Quote:
On the Eve of Invasion, the start of the combat campaign was delayed for several hours. I do remember at the time that there was an announcement of when the engagement had happened, but then following reports about how it was delayed. The delay was while our forces waited before crossing the border, watching the almost endless convoys leaving, going into Syria. The on-scene Commander had decided that those weapons did not need to be in his combat theater, as long as the Iraqis were so helpful in removing them.

Cites please?

Quote:
Sure, his 2 sons were even worse than Saddam, but 20,000 ISIS goons are even worse still.

OMG, a fucking glimmer. Bush I (daddy Bush) stopped short of Baghdad because he realized what a fucking nightmare would be unleashed. Daddy was way smarter than junior.

Quote:
But the underlying fact remains - Iraq had WMD.

You're like the kid pointing to a puddle on the driveway and saying "But there WAS a snowman there! There WAS!!" Yes, but the operative word is "was". Just as the operative word for Saddam's WMD is "was". WMD inevitably deteriorates. Even nuclear bombs deteriorate, which is why they keep testing them fuckers. You really need to develop a greater appreciation for the natural world. Maybe learn some science, or something. Objects don't remain pristine forever. Eventually, you wind up grubbing in the dirt for some corroded shell that has some goop in it, even tho it was once a might arsenal.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, October 16, 2014 11:14 PM

America loves a winner!

second - I'll take the word of the guys who were there, saw the 5,000+ chemical shells and rockets , and who got injured.

You need to read the article in full, or do so again, because clearly you missed some parts. They DID ( try ) to destroy some of the ammo dumps, and that's how they discovered the SURPRISE ! chemical weapons.

I do agree, W has some explaining to do as to why ALL weren't destroyed, and why NO ONE in the frelling media were told about these 1000's ( that we know of ) shells.

Be it Obama or Bush , it seems, we can't trust the govt.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 12:18 AM

ELVISCHRIST

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Friday, October 17, 2014 12:25 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, speaking of delusions
Quote:
On the Eve of Invasion, the start of the combat campaign was delayed for several hours. I do remember at the time that there was an announcement of when the engagement had happened, but then following reports about how it was delayed. The delay was while our forces waited before crossing the border, watching the almost endless convoys leaving, going into Syria. The on-scene Commander had decided that those weapons did not need to be in his combat theater, as long as the Iraqis were so helpful in removing them.
Cites please?

Quote:
Sure, his 2 sons were even worse than Saddam, but 20,000 ISIS goons are even worse still.
OMG, a fucking glimmer. Bush I (daddy Bush) stopped short of Baghdad because he realized what a fucking nightmare would be unleashed. Daddy was way smarter than junior.

Quote:
But the underlying fact remains - Iraq had WMD.
You're like the kid pointing to a puddle on the driveway and saying "But there WAS a snowman there! There WAS!!" Yes, but the operative word is "was". Just as the operative word for Saddam's WMD is "was". WMD inevitably deteriorates. Even nuclear bombs deteriorate, which is why they keep testing them fuckers. You really need to develop a greater appreciation for the natural world. Maybe learn some science, or something. Objects don't remain pristine forever. Eventually, you wind up grubbing in the dirt for some corroded shell that has some goop in it, even tho it was once a might arsenal.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

Anyone who has read the text of the authorization of the use of military force in Iraq would see that among the reasons listed for using that force was that Saddam was "continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability..."

Of course, another of the lies that led to that war was this:

"Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for
attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including
the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in
Iraq;"

Except they weren't there. At least they weren't until after we'd removed their only obstacle, Saddam Hussein, in the biggest foreign policy blunder in this nation's history.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 3:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Anyone who has read the text of the authorization of the use of military force in Iraq would see that among the reasons listed for using that force was that Saddam was "continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability..."

"And develop"

Really??? Saddam was "developing a significant chemical and biological weapons capability"???

In order to do that, you need bio-reactors. Chemical reactors. Isolation and purification equipment, NONE of which was found in Iraq by Hans Blix or by anyone afterwards.

In addition, the "use of force" authorization was superseded by UN Resolution 1441, the last resolution to deal with Iraq's disarmament. Right wingers really should look up the word supersede, because what that means is that all of the provisions in earlier resolutions were made null and void by this resolution. Right wingers have a tendency not to understand that.

Quote:
While some politicians [ie- GWB] have argued that the resolution could authorize war under certain circumstances, the representatives in the meeting were clear that this was not the case. The United States Ambassador to the United Nations, John Negroponte, said:

“[T]his resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA or a Member State, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12. The resolution makes clear that any Iraqi failure to comply is unacceptable and that Iraq must be disarmed. And, one way or another, Iraq will be disarmed. If the Security Council fails to act decisively in the event of further Iraqi violations, this resolution does not constrain any Member State from acting to defend itself against the threat posed by Iraq or to enforce relevant United Nations resolutions and protect world peace and security.

That was the reason for UNMOVIC in Iraq- to determine if Saddam Hussein was in "material breach" of the need to disarm. Like I said- it's too bad that GWB couldn't wait for Hans Blix to finish his job.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 7:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Perpetually, the Leftist distort the word 'wrong' for 'lie'.

The childish ,robotic, repetitious claims the 'Bush lied' us into war are nothing short of insanity.

All that "searching " by the UN, all that complying by Saddam, and shazzam! We continued to find 1000's of WMD shells and rockets, strewn about the country, and mixed in w/ standard ordinance.

“I love it when I hear, ‘Oh there weren’t any chemical weapons in Iraq,’ ” he said.

“There were plenty.”

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Friday, October 17, 2014 8:32 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
second - I'll take the word of the guys who were there, saw the 5,000+ chemical shells and rockets , and who got injured.

You need to read the article in full, or do so again, because clearly you missed some parts. They DID ( try ) to destroy some of the ammo dumps, and that's how they discovered the SURPRISE ! chemical weapons.

I do agree, W has some explaining to do as to why ALL weren't destroyed, and why NO ONE in the frelling media were told about these 1000's ( that we know of ) shells.

Be it Obama or Bush , it seems, we can't trust the govt.

Who is in charge of destroying the WMD's? Was it Bush? Or was it the lowest ranking soldiers mentioned in the story who got chemicals on themselves?

If Bush was in charge (and he ought to be because he made such a big deal about WMD's before the war ) Bush should have persevered until the WMD's were gone. Bush had the resources, if he'd just given the orders for more Hazmet suits for soldiers and rubber gloves.

In other words, Bush could have made the Generals in fear for their lives if they failed to properly handle WMD's. But Bush never took charge. He left everything to the lowest ranking soldiers to do what they could with what little they already had. Bush's indifference went on for years, not just months.

Well, actually, he treated the whole "WMD" thing like it was a case of illegal chemical waste dumping, same as he'd done as governor of Texas. He let the Superfund take care of his messes in Texas. In Iraq & Texas, Bush never acted like he was in charge of the chemical mess to be cleaned up.

Quote:
Perpetually, the Leftist distort the word 'wrong' for 'lie'.

The childish ,robotic, repetitious claims the 'Bush lied' us into war are nothing short of insanity.

Was Bush lying about the existence of WMD's or just idiotic about cleaning up WMD's? It's not just either/or. It could be both. It can't be neither.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 17, 2014 12:52 PM

America loves a winner!

What Bush & Rove lied about were that WMD DID exist, and for that we all should be furious. Rove made an asinine , unbelievably inexplicable stupid political call to NOT defend W or the admin over WMD we KNEW existed !!!!

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Friday, October 17, 2014 2:04 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What Bush & Rove lied about were that WMD DID exist, and for that we all should be furious. Rove made an asinine , unbelievably inexplicable stupid political call to NOT defend W or the admin over WMD we KNEW existed !!!!

Nice try, but Bush said Iraq had no WMDs. Watch the video uploaded on Aug 21, 2006:

How about the straight forward explanation? That the chemicals in the artillery shells NEVER were the Weapons of Mass Destruction that Bush and Cheney talked about constantly before the war started?

When the following news reports came out, Bush and Cheney spoke no more of WMD's because it's smarter to forget the whole WMD justification. These reports saying there weren't any WMDs:
www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-intel-source-curve-ball-revealed/
www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-na-curveball20nov20-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/pv47v

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Friday, October 17, 2014 3:14 PM

America loves a winner!

That supports my point .

Thanks for posting.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 3:28 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
That supports my point .

Thanks for posting.

You are welcome! But it does not support your point.

The philosophical question is “Do WMD's Exist?” You might say “Yes” and move on. (Or you might be tempted to say “No” and move on.) But to give an answer is to presume some kind of theory of existence (ontology), not to mention a theory of knowledge (epistemology). So we’re allowed to ask “How do you know WMDs exist?” and “What do you really mean by exist?”

You need to watch “Does Santa Claus Exist?” It will philosophically prime you for the more difficult “Do WMD's Exist?”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 17, 2014 4:51 PM

Geez, my post from yesterday seems to have generated 20 posts since then. Man.
Might take me a while to get through them all. But from what I can see, FWIW this seems the precise example of why I use the endearing term RapKnight.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 4:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What Bush & Rove lied about were that WMD DID exist, and for that we all should be furious. Rove made an asinine , unbelievably inexplicable stupid political call to NOT defend W or the admin over WMD we KNEW existed !!!!

For those who have been confused up til now, this should help expose the fact that Rove and his establishment Republicans are liberals, barely bothering to disagree with the radicals which make up Democrats, and reserving his great oppositional efforts for centrists, conservatives, and patriots like the Tea Party supporters.

I used to think Bush43's greatest mistake was Leon Panetta, but Rove was never too far behind. Maybe Rove really was 43's worst mistake.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 6:38 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
this should help expose the fact that Rove and his establishment Republicans are liberals . . .

So . . . now it's a fact that Bush and Rove are not real Republicans? Really? Or is Rove the unreal Republican and Bush is authentic? You going with one of those arguments? By the way, is Santa real?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 17, 2014 7:10 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
( And so what if ISIS has those weapons now ? They were ' depleted and degraded ' even before the war, in 2002, so why should there be any concern now, + 12 more years ? )

This is the point, these weapons, by 2002, were not a threat to anyone - so why do you maintain that it was a good idea to go to war over them? Ironically now we could see them being used by jihadist terrorists in dirty bombs or crude gas attacks against the Kurds - something that the Iraq war was supposed to prevent but has only, in fact, made possible.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 17, 2014 7:13 PM