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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Trixy:

Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....

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First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.

Oh, those making only min wage don't PAY any effective Federal income tax. In fact, they GET money, from others, via the " EIC ", aka $ transfer, from those who have, to those who don't.

But this topic has veered wildly off the thread topic. We can pick up this matter elsewhere, if you like.

Again, welcome to FFF.Net.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

We are the sum of our own choices.

Too few want to admit that basic truth.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?

If your answer is yes. Then you inevitably believe in a minimum wage raise. Regardless of your beliefs in the permanence of the work, you must acknowledge that work is work, and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.

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You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage. Are you ignorant of it? Or are you hiding, hoping nobody brings it up? Are you really with the Unions?

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Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch

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is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week?

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People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted

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People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.

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Orignally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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. - Minimum wage absolutely needs to be raised. It is so far behind inflation that it is actually hurting the economy. Our congressmen have this weird idea that only the youth work for minimum wage establishments. This is hardly the case, the average age of a fast food employee is 28!

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Welcome, but on this matter I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Raising the min wage benefits more union employees than it does entry level folk . It's a starting point. Anyone @ 38 who still is getting only min wage prolly deserves it.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Union Employees? What the hell are you talking about?

Minimum wage is a wide scale federal standard. It wouldn't just apply to those you seem to label as "union". The gap between minimum wage and the rise in prices for goods (inflation adjusted) has grown out of control since 1980. The differential is nearing $2, which is a crime given the economic situation we are in. I can tell you are the conservative type- so here is something that should get through to you- in not raising minimum wage we are drastically increasing the demand for welfare and unemployment benefits, as in many cases you can make more money off of those then you can a starting position job.




Moreover, just because someone has taken a sub-optimal career path doesn't mean they don't deserve the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage. It isn't like we are talking about forcing mom and pop shops to close up here. I am refering to the travesties that exist in employers such as Walmart, McDonalds, and other corporations in which employees make a cent for every dollar they make for the company...

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
TRIXY, rappy is an ideolog. You'll see by his response to you on the wage issue. On this issue I agree with you so far.

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How about you allow others to form their own conclusions, w/ out trying to poison the well ?

@ Trixy - I never said it would ONLY apply to union employees. But since union pay scales are often contractually tied to the federal MINIMUM wage, raising that will also result in a hidden " surprise " for all businesses that employ union labor.

Aside from that , an arbitrary Federal mandate to raise wages would cost jobs. Even by the most conservative means, 10's of thousands of jobs would be lost , on average, in each state. Probably a good bit more.

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Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....

Hell. The state with the highest minimum wage in the nation (Washington at $9.23) has the highest annual job growth rate in the nation.

This phenomenon isn't only limited to Washington either. In fact, the 13 states with the highest minimum wages saw annual job growth ranging from 5-14% while the bottom 37 states in this category only saw growth rates of ~.003%-2.8%.

Once again, this isn't a "new" phenomenon. Historically raises in the national minimum wage were followed by a decrease in unemployment and an increase in job growth. You have to remember that for every blue-collar job, there are 10 skill-less workers needed below.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:


Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.

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Originally posted by Trixy:

Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?

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and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.

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Who determines what is 'fair' ? You ? The employee ? The company ? Teachers, despite their importance, are in abundance. Other jobs, like brain surgeons and professional athlete , are far more unique in their requirements. Far fewer can reach that level of experience and expertise to merit what they get paid. The free market makes that determination, not the govt. Thankfully.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Trixy:

Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?

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No. And you can't ask a blanket statement like that if you're going to be talking about the real world. Not all jobs are the same. Not all companies are the same. And not all PEOPLE are the same. We come with different talents, ages, work experiences, goals, drives, motivations... We're not freaking ants in a giant colony, just trying to fit nicely into the hive mentality.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
A " living wage " is a meaningless term.

Are you talking about living in Manhattan ? Chicago? Or in Rapid City, South Dakota.

And factors might determine this mythical ' living wage ' ? Are you single ? Married? Kids ? How many kids ? 1. 3. 13 ? You think THAT may have some impact on the lifestyle which a person might have ?

We're not all the same.

We don't have the same lives. To try to straddle us w/ this one-size-fits-all " Living wage " crap makes zero sense.

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Originally posted by second:
AURapture is right again. There is an article about wages in Denmark at McDonalds. $20 per hour minimum wage does reduce employment opportunities as a fry cook. www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7083475/denmark-fast-food-wages

Mandating high wages for fast food workers had the impact in Denmark you would expect — low levels of fast food employment. The relevant question for the United States then becomes what would we have people do if half the fast food restaurants shut down?

Denmark proves that this is not an unanswerable question. There is something that they are doing (something AURapture could not care less about knowing because government would be doing it) in terms of education, training, active labor market policy, and regulation that is allowing Denmark to maintain a low level of unemployment without reliance on low-wage fast food jobs as we see in the United States. But that's the secret sauce, not the high minimum wage for fast food workers.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage. Are you ignorant of it? Or are you hiding, hoping nobody brings it up? Are you really with the Unions?

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So, your logic is, that democrats solely push for minimum raise wages because of unions and not because of the various economic impacts that minimum wage being so far behind has?

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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Orignally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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. - Minimum wage absolutely needs to be raised. It is so far behind inflation that it is actually hurting the economy. Our congressmen have this weird idea that only the youth work for minimum wage establishments. This is hardly the case, the average age of a fast food employee is 28!

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Welcome, but on this matter I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Raising the min wage benefits more union employees than it does entry level folk . It's a starting point. Anyone @ 38 who still is getting only min wage prolly deserves it.

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Union Employees? What the hell are you talking about?

Minimum wage is a wide scale federal standard. It wouldn't just apply to those you seem to label as "union". The gap between minimum wage and the rise in prices for goods (inflation adjusted) has grown out of control since 1980. The differential is nearing $2, which is a crime given the economic situation we are in. I can tell you are the conservative type- so here is something that should get through to you- in not raising minimum wage we are drastically increasing the demand for welfare and unemployment benefits, as in many cases you can make more money off of those then you can a starting position job.

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Moreover, just because someone has taken a sub-optimal career path doesn't mean they don't deserve the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage. It isn't like we are talking about forcing mom and pop shops to close up here. I am refering to the travesties that exist in employers such as Walmart, McDonalds, and other corporations in which employees make a cent for every dollar they make for the company...

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.

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Where I come from if you flip burgers while stoned or drunk or talking on your phone, you'd get the sack. People who are employed are expected to work to standards.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:



Fast Food Worker Salary (United States)

The average rate for a Fast Food Worker is $7.73 per hour. Pay for this job does not change much between less experienced and more experienced workers. People in this job generally don't have more than 10 years' experience.

Who two, is talking about $20.00 an hour? Were talking about raising the minimum wage, not giving them the same wages as say, machinists. They want $15.00 an hour at fast food restaurants but it doesn't mean their isn't a middle ground. The less they make, means more comes out of your taxes to pay for what they cannot.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Minimum wage, - it's a livable base for the workers who earn the least. The concept is you should be paid a livable wage for the work you do.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

You are warping the definition of minimum.
Minimum, for most reasonable people, means the least, the bottom limit.
What should you call the wage which is below that sustainable for living, the wage for high-schoolers or those living in commune, with little monetary needs and equally little desire to work? Historically in America that has been called minimum wage. Those who want to earn more than minimum wage learn, get experience, training, education, certifications, licenses, and get a higher paying job.

Are you saying your country has a special definition for minimum wage? Is that the name you use for what we call welfare, government subsistence?

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

You are warping the definition of minimum.
Minimum, for most reasonable people, means the least, the bottom limit.
What should you call the wage which is below that sustainable for living, the wage for high-schoolers or those living in commune, with little monetary needs and equally little desire to work? Historically in America that has been called minimum wage. Those who want to earn more than minimum wage learn, get experience, training, education, certifications, licenses, and get a higher paying job.

Are you saying your country has a special definition for minimum wage? Is that the name you use for what we call welfare, government subsistence?

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I'm not sure why you can't understand that a minimum wage does not prevent people from moving into higher income stream. It is, as you say, what you earn if you are the least skilled.

The minimum wage sets the bottom rung of what employers can pay anyone. This does not include welfare, which is what you get when are jobseeking but not working, a single parent who is caring for young children, or disabled.

Different professions are covered by different pay awards, which means that minimum pay varies between industries. There is however, a basic minimum wage. A number of basic conditions are set out in legislation called the Fair Work Act which include pay rates, but a number of other conditions as well.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Bah, fuck you.

Here is the simple, awful truth.

Productivity has skyrocketed,
Cost of living has skyrocketed.

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-F

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Interesting. Some confusion arises when discussing American minimum wage then, because your minimum wage differs. Yours has a career minimum wage, a profession minimum wage. In America, the minimum wage is that which is broad-based, non-career wage, non-specified for each profession. Minimum wage here is NOT FOR professions, or professionals, it is for those not pursuing a profession, not interested in remaining in a profession, for the in-between jobs, the part-time jobs, the "starter" jobs.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.

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As you were.

We are the sum of our own choices.

Too few want to admit that basic truth.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.

Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.

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We interact with minimum wage earners all the time, and then we get pissed when the service sucks. I say pay the people well and everyone will be better off. If my burger costs a dime more, so what. If Shell and Mobil only make $39 billion a quarter in profit instead of $40 billion, so what.

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