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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
When the new Congress starts in January they ought to make a deal with Obama, trading a reasonable minimum wage increase for Keystone Pipeline approval. That's a good way to start 2015.

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Trixy:

Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....

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First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.

Oh, those making only min wage don't PAY any effective Federal income tax. In fact, they GET money, from others, via the " EIC ", aka $ transfer, from those who have, to those who don't.

But this topic has veered wildly off the thread topic. We can pick up this matter elsewhere, if you like.

Again, welcome to FFF.Net.

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Good idea! It felt odd posting in an internet topic on this matter!

Managing minimum wage is an essential part of keeping the economy healthy. The government messing with it is no different than the government adjusting interest rates.

Also, I just don't seem to get where you are coming through. Here you are, mention EIC, which is a form of welfare- the VERY SAME SYSTEM that is encouraged by having a minimum wage that is below a living standard. Additionally, as someone who actually has had to work through college, I can assure you that I'm not getting any help from the government in the for of welfare, food stamps, or other aid.

You seem to place workers of minimum wage jobs in a separate category from the rest of society- which boggles me as we all have had to start somewhere. We are talking about 28 million people benefiting from the wage raises. Raising minimum wage isn't going to encourage people to hold that same low-level job for the rest of their life. However, it might just encourage those who are unemployed to grab a job in-between looking for another career, as the job (with a living minimum wage) would be worth more than unemployment pay is.....

Raising wages encourages consumer spending, employment, and wealth promotion; the last part being especially important given the disappearance of the middle class and the growing wealth gap.

Finally, it isn't like the government in passing a wage raise would be hunting down small businesses. As surveys have shown that the majority of small businesses not only support a raise in minimum wages, but already tend to employ higher wages in order to encourage workers away from corporations in the first place. In other words, for the vast majority of places, it would be business as usual.

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Originally posted by JO753:
Now I get it! The Republicanz are Canadian infiltratorz!
http://www.nooalf.com]

That would have been just as equally funny to me if both of the "z"'s were replaced with more conservative "s'sssisssssusss"

I hope nobody fucks up New Zealand before I figure out how to hurdle their barriers for newcomers....



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Interesting. Some confusion arises when discussing American minimum wage then, because your minimum wage differs. Yours has a career minimum wage, a profession minimum wage. In America, the minimum wage is that which is broad-based, non-career wage, non-specified for each profession. Minimum wage here is NOT FOR professions, or professionals, it is for those not pursuing a profession, not interested in remaining in a profession, for the in-between jobs, the part-time jobs, the "starter" jobs.

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Yes, the minimum wage applies there as well. Minimum wage applies to starter jobs, to non professional jobs. Dishwashers, cleaners, burger flippers etc

http://www.smh.com.au/national/minimum-wage-up-3-per-cent-rise-of-1870
-a-week-20140604-39is5.html

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Originally posted by JO753:
How much we pay for stuf iz more than just how much the real workerz get paid to make it.

If you look at where all the money haz ended up and wonder how it got there, the cost breakdown uv the stuf we buy iz a good place to start.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by Trixy:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.

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You seem to place workers of minimum wage jobs in a separate category from the rest of society- which boggles me as we all have had to start somewhere. We are talking about 28 million people benefiting from the wage raises. Raising minimum wage isn't going to encourage people to hold that same low-level job for the rest of their life. However, it might just encourage those who are unemployed to grab a job in-between looking for another career, as the job (with a living minimum wage) would be worth more than unemployment pay is.....

Finally, it isn't like the government in passing a wage raise would be hunting down small businesses. As surveys have shown that the majority of small businesses not only support a raise in minimum wages, but already tend to employ higher wages in order to encourage workers away from corporations in the first place. In other words, for the vast majority of places, it would be business as usual.

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Hi Trixy,

I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.

I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.

Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.



Think about it.... Back in 1996 at my first job, I was making $5.25 an hour minimum wage. It doesn't sound like much, but I was able to buy 5 gallons of gas with that. Not only that, but do you remember how cheap the price of everything except for new technology was back when gas was that cheap?

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That needs to be rigorously followed up by our government to make sure that prices of goods go down accordingly to make it worth the effort.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The price of goods at a place like restaurant is expected to be about 3 times the cost of the labor "cost" - so if you increase the wages $3/hr, etc etc etc. same old arguments

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First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals.

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I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.

I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.

Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.

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The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.

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My parents have a furniture restoration business that was thriving until around 2010. They don't know what they're going to do about the new minimum wage law saying that they have to pay somebody $10.00/hr in their state. They only have one employee and he's not even full time. That's how serious it is for them.

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No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:


Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?

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You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?

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The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals.

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Yes, actually, it is. The government prints the money and supports its value. It IS truly government money.

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I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.

I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.

Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.

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I have no idea what the boils down to. At the same time that you say you don't feel that the EIC is welfare, you seem pretty resentful of some who get more than you.

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The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.

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All I'm getting out of this is that the minimum wage hasn't increased in keeping with the cost of living. But everybody knows that!

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My parents have a furniture restoration business that was thriving until around 2010. They don't know what they're going to do about the new minimum wage law saying that they have to pay somebody $10.00/hr in their state. They only have one employee and he's not even full time. That's how serious it is for them.

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They'll have to raise their prices. The reason why that shouldn't be too much of an issue is that everyone will have to raise their prices just the same, so no particular business will suffer a competitive disadvantage.

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No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.

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That lasts only as long as it takes production to ramp up to meet increased demand.

If you want to improve "the economy", you have to increase your customer base... by making sure that people have MONEY TO BUY. The genesis of the Great Depression was because too many people didn't have money to buy goods and services. That tossed people out of work, which caused even LESS money to be available for buying goods and services, which tossed even MORE people out of work.

But since manufacturing in the USA has been mostly offshored, if you want to improve the jobs situation in the USA, you have to raise protective tariffs on imported goods to give manufacturing a chance to revive. This isn't rocket science.

In any case, studies have shown that a rise in the minimum wage doesn't decrease the number of available jobs, and in some cases actually increased the availability of work since more people were getting more money, they could afford to go out and buy more things, like restaurant food etc.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:


Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?

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I dont know. Do you want me to trawl through 10 different awards to find information that you can find as easily as me because I dont keep that information in my head, not working in those industries.

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Not everyone has a mummy and daddy to support them. Some people have no supports, have to do it on their own, have families to support, have rent to pay and take what they are able to do. Life kicks out a variety of circumstances that people have to contend with. Some move on to better paid jobs, some stay in low paid jobs all there life. In the rarified air you clearly breathe, have you never met the 60 year old cleaner or factory worker or taxi driver or ditch digger who has always worked in those kind of jobs. And had a family, paid rent/mortgage.

So you have some fantasy about how it should be in a perfect world, with everyone dragging themselves up by the bootstraps and working numerous jobs. But the issue is that employers shouldn't treat people like slaves. If you put in work, any work, you deserve to be paid a reasonable wage. Businesses can and do factor that in to their overheads. If you can't afford to pay the wage, your business clearly cannot afford the employee.

And once again, a minimum wage does not prevent or deter people from bettering themselves. People do what they are capable of. Paying people shitty wages is one major contributor to the cycle of poverty. It's a kind of modern feudalism.

http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/05/13/neo-feudalism-captures-the-u
nited-states/

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The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Do you refer to awards as a term for pay?

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)


Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?

A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon

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Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.


STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.

You're ABSOLUTELY right.....

It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The Federal Minimum Wage has been stuck at $7.25/hr for over five years. That amount is insulting. I'm amazed that anyone would do any work for measly scraps like that. I made more money than that 50 years ago shoveling snow and mowing lawns. $7.25 in 2014 is pure bullshit.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)


Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?

A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon

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I do not recall gas prices that low at that time. Online search indicates $1.23 average for 1996, and I assume that is for the lowest price-per gallon fuel (the most expensive and polluting fuel). Does Indiana have some incredible fuel subsidy?

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Q: The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.

A: I'm not exactly following this.


I'll show you a ton of proof that prices on ordinary "neccity type goods" have nearly quadrupled since the late 90's.

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Yet you insist on pretending that the increase in prices has nothing to do with the big cause - the increase in minimum wage.

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Q: Are you arguing that the min wage increase WILL hurt small businesses, or WILL NOT hurt? Your above statements seem conflicting, or unclear.

A: I know it will hurt my parent's business. I have to believe that it will hurt a lot of people's parents businesses.

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Now you are catching on.

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Forget a minimum wage increase. The increased prices of good for everyone will nullify it.

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Again, now you are on target.

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Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.


STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.

You're ABSOLUTELY right.....

It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.

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In my state, the Dems raided all of the funds related to fuel and handed them over to Unions, Dem fundraisers, Unions, and also Unions. This past election we passed a referendum to prohibit this from happening again. Like the Dems are going to start obeying the law.

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