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Originally posted by 1kiki:
No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


Sniggy The Piggy: "I shouldn't have eaten all those corn cobs this morning."

Kiki The Old Sow: "I told you to go easy, but you never listen."

Sniggy The Piggy: "Ugh! I feel so gassy, like I'm gonna explode."

Kiki The Old Sow: "Okay with me. Your farts smell divine."

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*SNORT!* Love these 2 - you need to start a web site, sell t-shirts, etc. It'd be huge.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I noticed that the usual suspects are missing from this conversation: THUGR, G, KPO, MAL4, and (lately) GEEZER, who all like to believe that this was just a spontaneous cry from all Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (corrupt but elected) government.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html

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Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html
-SIGNY
It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters

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In April, prosecutors arrested three suspects, members of an elite unit within the “Berkut” riot police. Senior among them was Dmytro Sadovnyk, 38, a decorated commander, who was accused of ordering his men to fire on the crowds on the morning of Feb. 20. The three stand accused of massacring 39 unarmed protesters.

... A Reuters examination of Ukraine's probes into the Maidan shootings - based on interviews with prosecutors, defence attorneys, protesters, police officers and legal experts – has uncovered serious flaws in the case against Sadovnyk and the other two Berkut officers.

Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.

The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago. As prosecutors introduced the image at a hearing in April, said Yuliya Sadovnyk, her husband removed a glove and displayed his stump to the courtroom.

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Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt

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murdering

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democratically elected president

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was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections.

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That to me sounds like brokering well done.

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It's not personal. It's just war.

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I think you meant "not democratic" whatever...

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buzz
buzz
hello
good afternoon madame.
this is again the center action service …
should we go, do you think it is going to be possible straight away?
to connect Mr. Katz … yes sir.
so please go on, I’m connecting with the Lady Ashton cabinet.
yes thank you.
you’re welcome.
buzz
yes hello this is Mian speaking.
yes it is for the conference with the Estonian foreign minister, they are online.
hello.
yes hello can you put me through please?
yes i’ll connect you to Mr. Katz, one moment.
thank you.
hello minister.
hello.
hi I’ll put you through, thank you very much.
thank you.
buzz
hello.
buzz
hello.
hello.
hello how are you?
I am fine.
good. I’m good.
and you?

Ashton - good. I just wanted to catch up with you on what you thought when you were there.

Paet - yes, I returned last night already, so that I was one day.

Ashton - yes. Impressions?

Paet- Impressions are sad. I met with representatives of Regions Party [the Party of the just-ousted President Yanukovych], also new coalition representatives, and also civilian society, there is this lady called Olga, who is head of the doctors, yes, you know her.

Ashton yes, I do,

Paet - so that yes, whew, my impression in this is sad, that there is, well, no trust, that there was the sense that there was those politicians who will return now to the coalition, well, people from Maidan [the anti-Yanukovych demonstrators] and from civilian society [non-governmental leaders in Ukraine], they say they know everybody who will be in your [whatever the Maidaners install as constituting the new] government, and all these guys have dirty past [i.e., even the Maidan leaders know that everyone who stands even a chance to be installed into the new government has a “dirty past”]

Ashton -yes,

Paet - So that they, well, they made some proposals to this same Olga and to others from civilian society, that they join new government, but this Olga, for example, says directly that she’s ready to go [in]to the government only in the case if she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms, so that, oh, basically that the trust level is absolutely low; on the other hand all the security problems, the (inaudible) problems, Crimea, all this stuff, Regions Party was absolutely upset, they say that well they accept this now, that there will be new government and there will be external [for-Yanukovych’s-replacement] elections, but there is enormous pressure against the members of parliament [from his Regions Party], that there are uninvited visitors [Ukrainian nazis] during the night, to [Regions] Party members, well, journalists, some journalists who were with me, they saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament building, by these guys with the guns on the streets [the highly organized Ukrainian nazis, beating those Parliamentarians, to terrorize them into not resisting the coup],

Ashton - yeah,


Paet -so that all these messages is still there, and of course this Olga and others from civilian society, they were absolutely sure that people will not leave the streets before they see that the real reforms will start, so that it is not enough that there is just change of government. [He now changes totally to what the EU’s and his own country’s leaders care the most about, which isn’t at all “she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms,” but instead:] There is the main impression, so that from EU’s and from Estonia’s perspective of course, they should be ready to put this financial package together [for their aristocrats’ Ukrainian bondholders], also together with others, this very clear message is needed that it’s not enough that there is a change of government, that the same real reforms, re. an election, to increase the level of trust [is needed], otherwise it will end badly [those loans won’t be repaid]. Because the Regions Party [the people now afraid] also said that then you will see that if the people from the eastern part of Ukraine [which they represent] will really wake up, and start to demand their rights [as the Maidaners in the west had been demanding theirs], some people with me were in Donetsk [in the east] their people said, well we can’t wait, how long still the occupation of [by] Ukraine lasts in Donetsk [i.e., they were already so alienated by rule from the west so that, even under Yanukovych, they considered it to be “occupation”], that it is real Russian ship city and we’d like now to see that Russia will take over [and any such breakaway would remove from Ukraine assets that otherwise could be available to pay back EU loans]. So that those are [my] short impressions.

Ashton -Now very very interesting. I’ve just had a big meeting here with Olli Rehn and the other [EU] commissioners. We are working on financial packages, short, medium, long term, everything from how we get money in quickly, to how we can support the IMF [guarantor of international loans], and how we can get the kind of investment packages and business leaders, and so on. On the political side, we’ve worked out resources we’ve got and I offered to civil society and to Yatsenyuk [the banker whom Obama’s agent was now actually choosing to run the country] and Klitchko and everybody I met yesterday, we can offer you people who know how to do political and economic reform [i.e., to make whole the bond-bets of Europe’s aristocracy]. the countries that are closest to Ukraine have themselves been through dramatic changes, and have done big political and economic reform, so we’ve got loads of experience to give you, which we have to give. I said to the people in Maidan, yes, you want real reform, but you’ve got to get through the short term first, so you need to find ways in which you can establish a process that will have anti-corruption at its heart [this need reflecting the interests of both Europe’s aristocrats who have loaned money to Ukraine, plus of the Ukrainian public, so that Ukrainians won’t continue to be robbed blind by Ukraine’s own oligarchs — benefiting both the EU’s aristocracies plus the Ukrainian public], that will have people working alongside until the elections, and that you can be confident in the process. I said to Olga, you may not be health minister now, but you need to think about becoming health minister in the future, because people like you are going to be needed to be able to get to make sure that things will happen. But I also said to them, if you simply barricade the buildings now, and the government doesn’t function, we can’t get money in, because we need a partner to partner with [in order to get those European loans paid back]; and I said to the opposition leaders, shortly to become government, you need to reach out to Maidan, you need to be, you know, engaging with them; you also need to get ordinary people back on the streets under a new sense of their role, so that people feel safe. I said to the Party of Regions [Yanukovych’s] people, you have to go and lay flowers where the people died, you have to show that you understand what has happened here, because what you are experiencing was anger, of people who have seen the way that Yanukovych lived and the corruption, and they [Ukrainians] assume you’re all the same; and those are the people who’ve lost people, and who feel that he [Yanukovych] ordered that to happen; there’s quite a lot of shock, I think, in the city, a lot of sadness and shock, and that’s going to come out in some very strange ways if we’re not careful. I think all of this we’re going to have to work on. We’ve done a big meeting here today, to try to get this in place. But yes, it’s very interesting, your observations. [Ashton is expressing the general impression given to the west that Yanukovich was responsible for the Maidan sniping, and that many Ukrainians believe that]

Paet - It is, and actually the only politician the people from civilian society mentioned positively was Poroshenko [who was soon to become the ultimate winner in the May 25th Presidential “election,” which was held only in Ukraine’s northwest, because by then the regime’s massacres of people in the southeast had already begun and so the residents there knew that they didn’t want to be ruled any longer from Kiev], so that he had some so to say trust among all these Maidan people and civilian society; and [NOW COMES THE BOMBSHELL] second, what was quite disturbing, the same oligarch [Poroshenko — and so when he became President he already knew this] told that well, all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers, from both sides, among policemen and people from the streets, [this will shock Ashton, who had just said that Yanukovych had masterminded the killings] that they were the same snipers, killing people from both sides [so, Poroshenko himself knows that his regime is based on a false-flag U.S.-controlled coup d’etat against his predecessor]

Aston- Well, that’s yes, …

Paet - So that and then she [Dr. Olga Bolgomets] also showed me some photos, she said that as medical doctor, she can, you know, say that it’s the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition that they don’t want to investigate, what exactly happened; so that now there is stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition. [Notice here that Paet had tactfully avoided saying that Ashton’s assumption that it had been Yanukovych was false; instead, he totally ignored her having said that, and he here simply said that the evidence went totally the opposite direction, the direction that Poroshenko himself knew to be true.]

Ashton - I think that we do want to investigate. [That sentiment on her part lasted about one second.] I mean I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh? [Ashton here seemed to have felt embarrassed, and she thus ended in a “Gosh” that was almost inaudible, as if a question, and then she proceeded simply to ignore this crucial matter entirely. All of the evidence suggests that she was exceedingly reluctant to believe that the bad guys here had actually been on the anti-Yanukovych side. She didn’t want to believe that, perhaps because her supreme priority was getting Europe’s loans paid back.]

Paet - So that it was in this instance disturbing that if it’s us now to live its own life very powerfully, then it already discreditates from the very beginning also this new coalition.

Ashton -[At this point, Ashton noticeably jerks the topic back to the needs of her own sponsors, Europe’s lenders to Ukraine, who want to be paid back; and she suddenly sours on Olga, as being “not a politician.”] I mean this is what we’ve got to be very careful of as well, that they need to demand great change, but they’ve got to let the Rada [Parliament] function. If the Rada doesn’t function, then we’ll have complete chaos. [Ashton clearly wants now to sweep those bullets and blood under the rug.] So, being an activist and a doctor is very important, but it means you’re not a politician, and somehow they’ve got to come to a kind of accommodation for the next few weeks, as to how the country’s actually going to run, and then we get the elections and things can change. And that’s, I think, going to be quite pop[ular]. I’m planning to go back early next week, hoping on Monday [and the end of the conversation discusses the big EU names who will be coming to Ukraine the next week].

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Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)

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democratically elected president
I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part

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your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders

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"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons

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Did I say the Poroshenko vote was democratic? No? Were you wrong, lying or stupid?

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One doesn't have to read any further than, "so basically you're saying that..." to know how full of bias and negative spin what follows will be. Tragically dim.

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So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?

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And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, MRG are you saying that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet?

yes or no.

If yes, provide evidence.

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So what your saying is KPO totally gutted you 2 and now you have to run and hide. Is that what you're saying?

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Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)- SIGNY

I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically.

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No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

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"democratically elected president" I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part- SIGNY

Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.

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your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders-SIGNY
The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy.

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There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.

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"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons- SIGNY
Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters.

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And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the proof of the pudding is in the free and fair democratic elections that took place just a few months later - where Ukrainians CHOSE THEIR OWN president. If that's meddling, that's very constructive meddling.

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It's not personal. It's just war.

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Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIK

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Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIKNo, he's kept that part pretty quiet. I don't think he wants to revisit the issue. Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.

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Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?

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I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

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So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

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"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - bullshit.

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Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

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What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?

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So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

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Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?-SIGNY
The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

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I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?-SIGNY
A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world.

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So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?-SIGNY
At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government

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is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions

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of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

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"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - SIGNY
Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?-KPO

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Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.-SIGNY
Oh dear me.-KPO

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What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?-SIGNY
You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.-KPO

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So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???-SIGNY
Kiki is unhinged.-KPO

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It's not personal. It's just war.

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