Trash Talking and Inflated Rhetoric by SergeantX

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Trash Talking and Inflated Rhetoric

POSTED BY: SERGEANTX
UPDATED: Monday, July 25, 2005 23:05
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Friday, July 22, 2005 6:00 PM

Barnstormer posted the following comments near the end of the Rove thread. Thought I'd continue the discussion here.

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I think there is a big difference between "Trash Talking" and "Inflated Rhetoric".

For instance, in another thread I expressed my personal opinion of Ward Churchill (It was not flattering). Again, it was only my personal opinion of the mans character based upon his "Little Eichman" essay and other publications he has made in the past. I call that "Trash Talking".

Regardless of my personal opinion of his character however, the decision to dismiss him from his teaching post should not be based on the "Inflated Rhetoric" of the Left and Right wing media, but on whether or not he falsified his resume to get a tenured position in his college.

Those who use "Inflated Rhetoric" show only one thing (again in my opinion). They show that they don't care whats morally right or wrong, or what is truthfull or a falsehood. They only care that they win the argument based on their original premis. In other words, they can't admit they were wrong. Or WILL not admit they are wrong because it will undermine their agenda.

Argueing the points of a certian issue is not in the least a bad thing, it is in fact the best thing that can be done to keep our country on the right track. But only if the participents keep an open mind with the mutual goal of SOLVING the problem at hand. Not winning the arguement at all costs to prove that their organization is the one that "knows and see's all".

Your statement above calls the political situation of late as a "Free for All". This is with out a doubt true in both the political arena as well as the arena of the media. And I also believe that the fault lays squarely with the "Far Far Wingers" of both these arenas.

The users of "Inflated Rhetoric", Hyperbole, and the disengenuous (sp) are the ones that have caused this turn of events. I for one think it is a great internal threat to the freedoms we have in our country.

We have got to get our collective heads out of our asses soon. Very soon.

Once again, this has all been my own personal opinion. Whether or not this "Labels" me in one dasterdly way or another is of no concern to me.
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SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, July 22, 2005 6:08 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Barnstormer:
Those who use "Inflated Rhetoric" show only one thing (again in my opinion). They show that they don't care whats morally right or wrong, or what is truthfull or a falsehood. They only care that they win the argument based on their original premis. In other words, they can't admit they were wrong. Or WILL not admit they are wrong because it will undermine their agenda.

I think this is central to the problem, and I'd go one step further. I think we're often arguing at the wrong level. What I mean is, most people on here are reasonably intelligent people and have followed a decent line of reasoning to reach whatever conclusions they're arguing for. But all too often, it seems, it's the premises that are in conflict. But rather than discuss that disagreement, we gloss over it. It might help to look for the conflicting premises. Just at thought.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I've been grappling with Barnstormer's post. It's very clear to me that I haven't a clue what he's talking about!

Barnstormer, correct me if I'm wrong. The impression that I get is that trash talking is unflattering but effectless gossip among the powerless, but that inflated rhetoric is more consequential because it is often used as the basis for action.... (?)

Also, are you saying that it's not "what" is said, but the whole adversarial (some would say gladiatorial) approach to problem-solving that is a threat? And- How is that a threat?

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Saturday, July 23, 2005 3:16 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

The users of "Inflated Rhetoric", Hyperbole, and the disengenuous (sp) are the ones that have caused this turn of events. I for one think it is a great internal threat to the freedoms we have in our country.

This part obviously refers to the Bush administration fooling the American people with IR and H to the point where they can erode our civil rights in the name of patriotism.
I don't see much wrong with that line of reasoning.

Am I missing something Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 23, 2005 7:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Trash talking" as common criticism but "inflated rhetoric" as hate-mongering propaganda?

I guess I don't see a clear dividing line. For example, I can express my personal opinion (he's a filthy no good varmint), and if I don't call for action (string 'em up) that somehow exonerates me. But if I am in a crowd looking to lynch, I would be one of the bunch stoking anger to allow the first person to say 'we oughta string 'em up.'

It's the exact same words but to different effect.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, July 25, 2005 10:22 PM

PERFESSERGEE

Folks, the word rhetoric comes from the Greek "rhetor", meaning "speaker" (implying speaking in public). This is the noun form, though some English dictionaries take the Greek root to mean the verb "to speak". Either way, anyone who speaks out is automatically a rhetorician, meaning that everyone who has ever posted to this board fits into that category. In English, my home-office dictionary (American Heritage, 4th ed.) defines rhetoric as: 1) the art and study of using language effectively and persuasively 2) a style of speaking or writing, and 3) language that is pretentious or insincere.

I think we can discard def# 2) as being trivial in the context of this board (who's gonna worry about your style when they think your ideas are tantamount to the apocalypse? Or worse yet, when they think that you doubt that Firefly is the best TV of the last decade or two. Or three decades - trying to avoid #3 here...!). I think we'd also likely agree that TT and IR belong to def# 3), and that we would all cling to def# 1) as the basis for our own persuasive efforts.

But, for better or worse, we all use rhetoric for our own purposes. Everyone - individuals, civic groups, governments, idiots and cranks. IMHO, the best you can do is to try and analyze every bit of rhetoric you see, whoever it comes from. And "who it comes from" is not remotely trivial; an individuals' (or civic groups' or governments') rhetorical history speaks to the heart of the matter of sincerity.

And we should all keep in mind that rhetoric can be completely effective and persuasive, at the same time wholly unpretentious and sincere, and yet be completely despicable and abominable. Not to mention resulting in the deaths of millions of innocent human beings. It's happened before. More than once. But then rhetoric has always been a finely honed and multi-edged sword.

caveat emptor

(and curb your rhetoric.......)

perfessergee

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Monday, July 25, 2005 11:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I still wonder what point Barnstormer was making. Until he explains it to me, I'll be pretty much in the darks.

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