PirateNews Right by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

PirateNews Right

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, April 6, 2006 16:55
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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 6:48 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello all,

I recently opposed PirateNews on something. However, I try to be fair and equitable. In addition to the research I performed on my own behalf, I put forth some inquiries with friends I consider to be 'experts in the field.'

PirateNews posted about a 'bunker buster' munition being tested in the 700 ton range in the Nevada desert. He had some rediculous assertions about the government developing this device for the purpose of bombing Americans.

However, he also pointed out that the munition would be too heavy to be transported by plane.

I argued (along with others) that modern explosives allow a yield incomperable with the actual weight of the device.

But my friends (and while I won't name them, I do trust them) have suggested that the Nevada munition will have an actual weight of ~ 600 tons.

My friends have also assured me that the only plane in the world which can carry such a munition is a Russian cargo plane.

So either 1) the US has a new comperably sized cargo plane they are itching to try out, or 2) the stated reasons the military gave for the munition are disingenuous.

So while I still think the reasoning of PirateNews is a bit wacky, I have to give him credit for this much... a 600 ton munition is not currently a realistic device for deployment.

My own theory? I still think the munition is designed to test the effectiveness of a near kiloton yield tactical bomb, without having to actually employ a kiloton yield tactical bomb. Thus, they skirt violating the testing ban on nuclear munitions.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Just an update.

Apparently even the Russian Ekranoplan, a ground effect vehicle with a reported 1000 ton lifting capacity, is not capable of actually supporting 600 tons of cargo. Even if it could, it is a ground effects vehicle (uses its close proximity to the ground to help provide lift) and is incapable of being used to drop bombs.

The AN-225 has a reported max cargo load of 450 tons, and would also fall short of the requirement.

So... It looks like there really is no plane capable of deploying a 600 ton explosive device. As much as I hate to admit it, PirateNews appears to be correct in this instance.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

In case anyone was wondering what I've been rambling about:

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Pentagon plans record-breaking explosion in Nevada desert

Julian Borger in Washington
Saturday April 1, 2006
The Guardian

The Pentagon is preparing to set off a record-breaking bang, detonating 635 tonnes of high explosives and sending a mushroom cloud into the sky over the Nevada desert. The blast, on June 2, codenamed Divine Strake, is likely to be the biggest controlled conventional explosion in military history, experts said, and is designed to test the impact of bunker-busting bombs aimed at underground targets.
The blast comes at a time of rising tension with Iran over its nuclear programme. The US has refused to rule out military action and is considering the feasibility of destroying underground warhead development sites Iran is alleged to have built.

"We have several very large penetrators we're developing," James Tegnelia, head of the Defence Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) told US defence reporters. "We also have - are you ready for this? - an explosively formed charge that we're going to be putting in a tunnel in Nevada ... and that represents to us the largest single explosive that we could imagine doing conventionally to solve that problem."

The explosive used will be ammonium nitrate soaked in fuel oil - a cheap but potent combination. "I don't want to sound glib here but it is the first time in Nevada that you'll see a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas since we stopped testing nuclear weapons," Mr Tegnelia said.

Ivan Oelrich, a munitions expert at the Federation of American Scientists, said: "I suspect this is primarily a test of their computer modelling abilities, because I don't know how they could deliver a weapon like this. They are looking at how different rocks respond to shockwaves."

The White House and the Pentagon wanted to develop a nuclear bunker-buster bomb, but the initiative was blocked by Congress, obliging the defence department to experiment further with conventional explosives.

Mr Tegnelia's remarks triggered some anxiety in Las Vegas. Shelley Berkley, a Nevada Democrat, told the House of Representatives: "Anytime an administration official starts talking about mushroom clouds and Las Vegas, I want answers."

The DTRA later issued a statement saying: "All explosives, given the right thermal characteristics, create a cloud that may resemble a mushroom cloud."

"The dust cloud ... may reach an altitude of 10,000 feet and is not expected to be visible off the Nevada test site," Major Susan Idziak, a spokeswoman, said. "No adverse impact on the environment or health of exercise participants or local residents is anticipated."

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I think this part is telling:
"Ivan Oelrich, a munitions expert at the Federation of American Scientists, said: "I suspect this is primarily a test of their computer modelling abilities, because I don't know how they could deliver a weapon like this. They are looking at how different rocks respond to shockwaves."

The White House and the Pentagon wanted to develop a nuclear bunker-buster bomb, but the initiative was blocked by Congress, obliging the defence department to experiment further with conventional explosives."

It reaffirms my feeling that they are not developing a deployable device, but rather collecting data. I continue to believe that they are using this data to anticipate the effects of a nuclear bunker-buster that they have, thus far, been barred from developing or testing. The results of this test might go something like, "Well, if we wanted to do X, we could either truck in nearly 700 tons of explosives, set it on site, and then blow it up... Or we could drop a tac nuke from a plane." Obviously, the first solution isn't feasible. (And the second is bound to be unpopular!)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

A better article:

www.smh.com.auHome » World » Article
Bunker buster ready for test in Nevada desert
Email Print Normal font Large font By Ann Scott Tyson in Washington
April 1, 2006
ONE of the largest explosive tests since the end of the Cold War is planned for June, when the Pentagon will detonate a gigantic, 635-tonne conventional bomb in the Nevada desert as part of its research into developing weapons that can destroy deeply buried military targets

The test, code-named Divine Strake, will occur on June 2 about 145 kilometres north-west of Las Vegas in a high desert valley bounded by mountains.

"This is the largest single explosive we could imagine doing," said James Tegnelia, director of the Pentagon's Defence Threat Reduction Agency, which is conducting the test. It will generate a huge mushroom cloud.

The test is aimed at determining how well a conventional bomb would perform against fortified underground targets, such as military headquarters, biological or chemical weapons stockpiles, and long-range missiles, that the Pentagon says are proliferating among adversary nation around the world.

Mr Tegnelia says there a many technical hurdles to overcome. He suggests big conventional bombs are unlikely to solve the overall problem of buried threats. "It's a lot easier to dig your tunnel 15 metres deeper [than to develop weapons that can destroy it]," he says. The bomb would be a conventional alternative to a nuclear weapon proposed by the Bush Administration, which has run into opposition on Capitol Hill.

The Pentagon has been on the prowl to find funds for the research into the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator - better known as the bunker buster - after a US Nuclear Posture Review stated that no weapon in the Pentagon's arsenal could threaten a growing number of buried targets. Congress, however, has repeatedly refused to grant funding for a study on a nuclear bunker buster, instead directing money toward conventional alternatives. "This will be the largest open-air chemical explosion we've conducted," said Darwin Morgan, a spokesman for the Energy Department's test site.

A spokeswoman Irene Smith said it would register between 3.1 and 3.4 on the Richter scale but that there would be "no adverse effects to surrounding facilities either on or off the Nevada test site".

The US would alert Moscow beforehand to explain that the seismic activity was not a nuclear test, Mr Tegnelia said.

Officials took pains to differentiate between the June conventional experiment and past nuclear testing. "The US has no plans to conduct a nuclear test," said Mrs Smith. "President Bush supports a continued moratorium on nuclear testing."

The Pentagon agency is charged with countering threats to the US from chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear weapons. On a related topic, Mr Tegnelia said the State Department and the Pentagon are developing a proposal for a $US100 million ($140 million) effort to help Libya get rid of tonnes of mustard gas and chemicals stored in the desert. A Pentagon team has already visited Tripoli to suggest options for eliminating the weapons.

The Washington Post, Hearst Newspapers

A BIGGER BANG

- The Pentagon plans to detonate 635 tonnes of heavy ammonium nitrate fuel oil emulsion - creating a blast equivalent to 538 tonnes of TNT - in an 11-metre-deep hole on the Nevada Test Site.

- The test will be the third such experiment at the site since nuclear testing was halted in 1992. In 1993, the US exploded a bomb comprising 1450 tonnes of conventional explosives in an underground test and, in 2002, exploded a 16.3-tonne bomb.

- The atomic bomb that destroyed Nagasaki in 1945 had an explosive yield equal to 20,000 tonnes of conventional explosives.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:40 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Although I'm certain that the US is capable of doing such things, I'm looking at the date of these articles. Kinda puts some doubt in this, IMO.

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"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

You know, I never noticed the date.

That would be incredibly funny.

Especially since CNN parroted this.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Non April 1st article:

Posted 03/30/06 17:32Print this story Pentagon Plans Explosion at Nevada Site

By WILL DUNHAM, REUTERS

The Pentagon plans to detonate 700 tons of conventional high explosives in Nevada in a June 2 test designed to gauge the effectiveness of weapons against deeply buried targets, officials said on March 30.
"I don’t want to sound glib here, but it’s the first time in Nevada that you’ll see a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas since we stopped testing nuclear weapons," James Tegnelia, director of the Pentagon’s Defense Threat Reduction Agency, told a small group of reporters.

The test, dubbed "Divine Strake," is sponsored by Tegnelia’s agency and is set to be conducted at the Energy Department’s Nevada Test Site in Nye County, about 65 miles (105 km) northwest of Las Vegas.

"All explosives, given the right thermal characteristics, will create a cloud that may resemble a mushroom cloud," the Defense Threat Reduction Agency said in a statement. "The dust cloud from Divine Strake may reach an altitude of 10,000 feet (3,048 meters) and is not expected to be visible off the Nevada Test Site."
Nuclear tests at the site sent mushroom clouds billowing high into the air and became tourist attractions in the 1950s, but surface tests ended in the early 1960s.

Pentagon leaders have expressed concern about potential U.S. adversaries building deeply buried bunkers containing chemical, biological or nuclear weapons stockpiles or command-and-control structures that are difficult to destroy with existing weapons.

The agency said the test will involve detonating 700 tons of the Ammonium Nitrate-Fuel Oil, or ANFO, a commonly used agent in commercial blasting operations.

Officials said the test’s primary purpose is to examine ground shock effects on deeply buried tunnel structures, and the explosion will take place above an existing structure.

Tegnelia said because of the power of the explosion, officials will notify Russia and make sure authorities in Las Vegas understand the test.

He noted the Pentagon is currently developing several very large weapons intended to penetrate the ground to get at deeply buried and hardened targets.

Tegnelia said the "Divine Strake" test represents the largest conventional explosion Pentagon officials could imagine triggering to address the issue.

A strake is part of a ship’s hull.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:55 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

I guess that takes out the April Fool's potential.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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